<!--QuoteBegin-CommunistWithAGun+Aug 27 2004, 10:41 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CommunistWithAGun @ Aug 27 2004, 10:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Your entire fancy post can be defeated in one sentence. People do not have the equal chance in life, therefore equality is impossible under captialist regimes.
So you say "Get a job!' You can't survive on minimum wage. "GO TO COLLEGE THEN" Right, you want someone who started out poor to try and pay for college? Grants and scholorships only go so far. "Join the military reserve for college!" Right there is another nice convienece the United States has. Exploit the poor by cutting education funds, forcing them into finding alternate financial aid. The aid is the military which powers US imperialism. Don't argue my avatar symbolizes hate. Your opinions symbolize hundreds of years of sweat, blood, and the lives of countless unfortunates. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ahem. I don't know why I see this argument all the time, but having equal opportunity doesn't mean we're all facsimiles. And the only non-naive way to expect people to ever try to have exactly equal opportunity is to have some sort of social/genetic engineering project to have people be facsimiles.
Please. Since when is secondary education a right? Government isn't even obligated to provide schooling services. And you *can* survive on minimum wage, many many people do it every day (they have to hold down more than one job though).
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You hipocrite, if I were to say that the crucafix was a symbol of tyrany and evil (remember the crusades? The inquisition?) you would flame me off the face of the earth, yet here you post similar rubbish. The hammer and sickle are traditionaly symbols of the working class. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
alright, I'll bite. The crusades were in response to Muslim invasion of Jerusalem. That's right. Also, the crucifix has been behind almost all of western medicine and schooling, up to the last century. Who provided care for the sick, food for the poor, and education to the ignorant? Not the government, that's for sure.
<!--QuoteBegin-CommunistWithAGun+Aug 27 2004, 10:24 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CommunistWithAGun @ Aug 27 2004, 10:24 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Long ago there was a nation, which controlled its people by subliminality. What its people thought were merely mirrored illusions of the true intent. Its leaders exploiting a document set nearly 300 years, its beginning. The document has been amended many times since its creation, usually angled towards controlling its workforce. Another document to complete the charade was a list of rights granted to all the populace. From the begining of its economy was fueled by the exploitation of the poor and when this was too obvious labor was used overseas.The children of small weak nations easily exploited. The threat of war looming.
The most booming and powerful economy in the world second to none, a record surpasing all with the except of its war record. It would seem by some insight that its economy was fueled by war, without it many products would stop production. Every decade in the modern era there has been some sort of conflict involving the nation. Everyone drinks cola, and public opinion is throttled with an alert system cleverly disguised as a warning tool. The nation is freedomless, but it is cleverly disguised as the most free nation of the world. The nation is notorious for its conflicts with ideals of peace, equality, and other freedoms. Selling out its populace to fund the war effort is merely an investment which returns come in the form of overseas production and cheap labor. A aristocracy claiming democracy. The corporations control everything that people do, what they eat, what they wear, and how they live based on ideals that are unattainable. The nation had developped nuclear weapons in its second century, a double edged sword. It created a shaky and unwanted peace between rival industrialized nations. Without war the economy had suffered, yet war could spell nuclear arms exchange. A clever idea of "assisting" a small "allied" southern pacific nation experiencing civil war became the solution. Victory was not requried, merely production. A sad state of doomed, despairing, opressed, and redicuously stupid herd of sheep.
I want everyone to take this at face value and comment (if you want) based on what you read. This has not been grammar and spell checked so I apollogize ahead of time. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> wow..... if you don't like this country so much why don't you go find a better one? go have fun somewhere else comrad no freedom, your looking red buddy, and by that I mean you prefer a hammer and sicle over a hamburger! but yeah no nation or goverment is perfect, but people like you only focus on the negative. if instead of sitting around complaing all day you just did something productive maybe the world wouldn't be like it is. thats all I have for you comrad
<!--QuoteBegin-Wheeee+Aug 27 2004, 11:41 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Wheeee @ Aug 27 2004, 11:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You hipocrite, if I were to say that the crucafix was a symbol of tyrany and evil (remember the crusades? The inquisition?) you would flame me off the face of the earth, yet here you post similar rubbish. The hammer and sickle are traditionaly symbols of the working class. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
alright, I'll bite. The crusades were in response to Muslim invasion of Jerusalem. That's right. Also, the crucifix has been behind almost all of western medicine and schooling, up to the last century. Who provided care for the sick, food for the poor, and education to the ignorant? Not the government, that's for sure. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You've entirely missed the point. The point is that the Hammer And Sickle is no more a symbol of tyrany than the crucifix. Both were symbols used by people in power who committed attrocities (Crusades aside [I could disect your argument, but it'd be a waste of time and further derail the thread], the inquisition certainly counts as an attrocity in my book), yet neither actually symbolizes those attrocities.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> wow..... if you don't like this country so much why don't you go find a better one?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Man do I ever get sick of hearing this one. I was born in THIS country, it is my duty as a citizen to try and fix it's problems. If we all just shut up and never complained about anything where would we be?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->if instead of sitting around complaing all day you just did something productive maybe the world wouldn't be like it is.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Something productive? If we protest we get called traitors and commies, if we express our ideas in an internet forum we get flamed, if we take a more aggressive approach then we're terrorists or nutjobs (see: PETA). Just what in the **** do you expect us to do? Should we just stay quiet and write letters to our congressperson's trash bin?
<!--QuoteBegin-SkulkBait+Aug 28 2004, 12:17 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SkulkBait @ Aug 28 2004, 12:17 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> wow..... if you don't like this country so much why don't you go find a better one?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Man do I ever get sick of hearing this one. I was born in THIS country, it is my duty as a citizen to try and fix it's problems. If we all just shut up and never complained about anything where would we be? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Pretty much where China, Russia, North Korea and Cuba are now.
<!--QuoteBegin-EEK+Aug 28 2004, 12:56 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (EEK @ Aug 28 2004, 12:56 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-SkulkBait+Aug 28 2004, 12:17 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SkulkBait @ Aug 28 2004, 12:17 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> wow..... if you don't like this country so much why don't you go find a better one?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Man do I ever get sick of hearing this one. I was born in THIS country, it is my duty as a citizen to try and fix it's problems. If we all just shut up and never complained about anything where would we be? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Pretty much where China, Russia, North Korea and Cuba are now. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Zing! /me high-5's EEK. nice one.
<!--QuoteBegin-SkulkBait+Aug 28 2004, 03:40 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SkulkBait @ Aug 28 2004, 03:40 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You hipocrite, if I were to say that the crucafix was a symbol of tyrany and evil (remember the crusades? The inquisition?) you would flame me off the face of the earth, yet here you post similar rubbish. The hammer and sickle are traditionaly symbols of the working class. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Before the rise of Fascism, the Swastika was a symbol of something else - but from WW2 onwards it will ever be associated with tyranny and misery. The Soviets took the hammer and sickle and made it the icon of their reign of terror - and just like the swastika, thats exactly what I'm reminded of every time I see it. It has been used in mass slaughter as early as 15 years ago.
And in comparison - you have to trot out what? Events from 300 - 1000 years ago to go hunting after the crucifix? It doesnt bother you that in the mean time that symbol has also been carried at the forefront of humanitarianism, peace and medicine for at least as long? Sorry, but I see a clear difference there.
And CWAG, if you want to start talking frags counts, this is going to go very, very, very badly for you. In the two primary "Christian Wars" about 1,000,000 people died in the crusades, less than half a million died in the Inquistion - Stalins personal frag count is around 100 million, and I havent even got started on Mao, Pol pot etc.....
Spooge pretty much dealt with the "Not everyones equal so my post is bunk" idea. There have been more than enough stories of people facing the worst situations and dragging themselves out by their bootstraps. They didnt sit around blaming Bush, they didnt give up and start carrying signs, they damn well struggled out under their own steam. Capitalism rewards those who try the hardest, who take the initiative, and who give the consumer what they want. Whining about how unfortunate you are because you werent born a Kennedy isnt going to get you an education.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Something productive? If we protest we get called traitors and commies, if we express our ideas in an internet forum we get flamed, if we take a more aggressive approach then we're terrorists or nutjobs (see: PETA). Just what in the **** do you expect us to do? Should we just stay quiet and write letters to our congressperson's trash bin? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Seems like your suffering from a big dose of democracy. In this weird little system, if less than half the population agrees with you, then your idea does not get implemented. If you dont like it, then convince them otherwise. But if you cant, then please dont whine that the system = teh evilz0r.
<!--QuoteBegin-Marine01+Aug 28 2004, 01:23 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Marine01 @ Aug 28 2004, 01:23 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Seems like your suffering from a big dose of democracy. In this weird little system, if less than half the population agrees with you, then your idea does not get implemented. If you dont like it, then convince them otherwise. But if you cant, then please dont whine that the system = teh evilz0r. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Not totally <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> Sometimes it takes 2/3rds a vote <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Wheeee+Aug 27 2004, 11:41 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Wheeee @ Aug 27 2004, 11:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-CommunistWithAGun+Aug 27 2004, 10:41 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CommunistWithAGun @ Aug 27 2004, 10:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Your entire fancy post can be defeated in one sentence. People do not have the equal chance in life, therefore equality is impossible under captialist regimes.
So you say "Get a job!' You can't survive on minimum wage. "GO TO COLLEGE THEN" Right, you want someone who started out poor to try and pay for college? Grants and scholorships only go so far. "Join the military reserve for college!" Right there is another nice convienece the United States has. Exploit the poor by cutting education funds, forcing them into finding alternate financial aid. The aid is the military which powers US imperialism. Don't argue my avatar symbolizes hate. Your opinions symbolize hundreds of years of sweat, blood, and the lives of countless unfortunates. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ahem. I don't know why I see this argument all the time, but having equal opportunity doesn't mean we're all facsimiles. And the only non-naive way to expect people to ever try to have exactly equal opportunity is to have some sort of social/genetic engineering project to have people be facsimiles.
Please. Since when is secondary education a right? Government isn't even obligated to provide schooling services. And you *can* survive on minimum wage, many many people do it every day (they have to hold down more than one job though).
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You hipocrite, if I were to say that the crucafix was a symbol of tyrany and evil (remember the crusades? The inquisition?) you would flame me off the face of the earth, yet here you post similar rubbish. The hammer and sickle are traditionaly symbols of the working class. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
alright, I'll bite. The crusades were in response to Muslim invasion of Jerusalem. That's right. Also, the crucifix has been behind almost all of western medicine and schooling, up to the last century. Who provided care for the sick, food for the poor, and education to the ignorant? Not the government, that's for sure. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The purpose of government is to protect the people. I think that should file under protecting their interests to maintain a somewhat decent life.
<!--QuoteBegin-Avenger-X+Aug 27 2004, 11:54 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Avenger-X @ Aug 27 2004, 11:54 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-CommunistWithAGun+Aug 27 2004, 10:24 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CommunistWithAGun @ Aug 27 2004, 10:24 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Long ago there was a nation, which controlled its people by subliminality. What its people thought were merely mirrored illusions of the true intent. Its leaders exploiting a document set nearly 300 years, its beginning. The document has been amended many times since its creation, usually angled towards controlling its workforce. Another document to complete the charade was a list of rights granted to all the populace. From the begining of its economy was fueled by the exploitation of the poor and when this was too obvious labor was used overseas.The children of small weak nations easily exploited. The threat of war looming.
The most booming and powerful economy in the world second to none, a record surpasing all with the except of its war record. It would seem by some insight that its economy was fueled by war, without it many products would stop production. Every decade in the modern era there has been some sort of conflict involving the nation. Everyone drinks cola, and public opinion is throttled with an alert system cleverly disguised as a warning tool. The nation is freedomless, but it is cleverly disguised as the most free nation of the world. The nation is notorious for its conflicts with ideals of peace, equality, and other freedoms. Selling out its populace to fund the war effort is merely an investment which returns come in the form of overseas production and cheap labor. A aristocracy claiming democracy. The corporations control everything that people do, what they eat, what they wear, and how they live based on ideals that are unattainable. The nation had developped nuclear weapons in its second century, a double edged sword. It created a shaky and unwanted peace between rival industrialized nations. Without war the economy had suffered, yet war could spell nuclear arms exchange. A clever idea of "assisting" a small "allied" southern pacific nation experiencing civil war became the solution. Victory was not requried, merely production. A sad state of doomed, despairing, opressed, and redicuously stupid herd of sheep.
I want everyone to take this at face value and comment (if you want) based on what you read. This has not been grammar and spell checked so I apollogize ahead of time. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> wow..... if you don't like this country so much why don't you go find a better one? go have fun somewhere else comrad no freedom, your looking red buddy, and by that I mean you prefer a hammer and sicle over a hamburger! but yeah no nation or goverment is perfect, but people like you only focus on the negative. if instead of sitting around complaing all day you just did something productive maybe the world wouldn't be like it is. thats all I have for you comrad <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> All I have to say to that is "LMAO" and I think you know why. If not maybe you don't belong here
Anyone can succeed in America if they really want to. There are countless oppurtunities to invest, to get financial aid, to learn a trade, etc.
America is founded on business. That is its goal, its drive, the very thing that keeps it here. The idea that anyone can start a business that can succeed is something so foreign to the world, and so everyone comes here.
Our system rewards the best man in the group, unlike any other system on the face of the earth. It's a system that is so brutally fair that people like you hate it. Yes, some people lie/cheat/steal, but that happens in every system. It's not the norm, never has been, and never will be.
Capitalism has shown that it works, that people can succeed far more than they could with the government "helping" (controlling??) them. A socialist system, because it provides everyone with a job and no one with oppurtunity, acts as a limiter on its population. In a capitalist system, everyone's given the oppurtunity and no one's given a job. It's as fair as it could ever get, because people are deciding how successful they are, instead of a massive government beauracracy.
The number of services available to people that are poor are astounding. There are so many non-profit organizations that provide community classes, not to mention there is still a fair amount of aid coming from the government to help those people back on their feet. I prefer the non profit organizations over the government, as the government is the least efficient at providing services.
Also CWAG, I'm not sure if you've read up on history, but communism doesn't work. Marx's original formula for pretty-rainbow-flowers-drug induced utopia was this:
1.) Bloody Revolution (kill the rich) 2.) Dictatorship of the Proletariot (smooth transition to flowerness, never gets past this) 3.) Utopia (ewwww)
Note dictatorship. Note it. And again, note it. It sets out to fail from its very beginning. Unless you plan on coming up with a new and less problematic way to transition from a bloody revolution to a pretty utopia, you might as well give up your support for a cause that was proved lost after the Russian Revolution.
1.) Bloody Revolution (kill the rich) 2.) Dictatorship of the Proletariot (smooth transition to flowerness, never gets past this) 3.) Utopia <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm not seeing a problem with this at all
<!--QuoteBegin-illuminex+Aug 28 2004, 03:05 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (illuminex @ Aug 28 2004, 03:05 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Also CWAG, I'm not sure if you've read up on history, but communism doesn't work. Marx's original formula for pretty-rainbow-flowers-drug induced utopia was this:
1.) Bloody Revolution (kill the rich) 2.) Dictatorship of the Proletariot (smooth transition to flowerness, never gets past this) 3.) Utopia (ewwww) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> So I assume you have actually read Marx' work. Because otherwise you wouldn't throw in some random buzzphrases, right?
<!--QuoteBegin-CommunistWithAGun+Aug 27 2004, 10:41 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CommunistWithAGun @ Aug 27 2004, 10:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Your entire fancy post can be defeated in one sentence. People do not have the equal chance in life, therefore equality is impossible under captialist regimes. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I seem to remember watching a short documentary during the Olympics about the USA's long distance runner (I can't believe I've forgotten the name). He and his family (15+ people) fled from some small African country I'd never even heard of before, came here, settled in San Diego, and set out to fulfil their dreams. Let's see, obviously one child became a world-class athlete, while other siblings received their MBAs, one became a doctor, one a lawyer, others are in graduate school or college right now; the point is, these people came here with NOTHING going for them, in fact the father still supports his family as a taxi driver. But those children WORKED for what they wanted, and now they are all highly successful people. I can hardly see how this is an oppressive system; it's only oppressive if you suppress your potential.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So I assume you have actually read Marx' work. Because otherwise you wouldn't throw in some random buzzphrases, right? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nice try in discrediting my post, but I won't let your lack of a real reply slide past so easily.
Step 1: Take an economics course where you learn about different systems.
Step 2: Apply knowledge learned in there, as well as in political magazines, outside sources, and encyclopedias.
Step 3: Add a relevant point to a discussion on these systems.
Step 4: Stomp posts attacking credibility instead of fact.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm not seeing a problem with this at all <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I am. Communist and Socialist utopias sprung up all over the place in the mid-late 1800's; pretty much all of them failed. Communism and Socialism are <b>limiters</b>, particularly Communism. It strives to be completely equal, a system where everyone works. The thing it leaves out is that there is no way to get ahead in this system. If you work really hard, you don't get anything more out of it than if you did the absolute bare minimum. With little to no hard work ethic being utilized, the beautiful utopia falls apart. Communism fails again.
Communism would also have to outlaw money of any kind, which would obviously mean a full on barter system, something impossible to manage and keep flowing. Therefore, it would have to adopt a monetary system, at which point it commits suicide, since people would seek to have <b>more</b> money, and a group of people that works harder than everyone else will accumulate more money, therefore gain more influence, thus creating an imbalance.
Capitalism feeds off of that inherent imbalance. Some people are lazy, some people are not. Capitalism rewards the hard working by giving the lazy person's share of wealth to the harder working person. The lazy person feels bad about himself, and decides to blame the harder working person, who is then resentful of the lazy person, at which point the class system is born. However, the lazy person refuses to acknowledge the fact that they have the ability to invest in that other person's business or to start their own.
Are all people who work hard at regular jobs lazy? Well, obviously not. However, they're not utilizing their talents to get ahead. Everyone has the ability to start and maintain a small, but profitable, business, or to invest in someone else's profitable business. Therefore, capitalism has no pity on the working man who does not make profit from another source.
Capitalism is that freedom to do what you want with what you have. It's individually based.
Communism is not a free system. You cannot do what you want with what you have, because the community requires you to do something else. Therefore, it's community based. Thus the "commune."
<!--QuoteBegin-eggmac+Aug 28 2004, 10:13 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (eggmac @ Aug 28 2004, 10:13 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> So I assume you have actually read Marx' work. Because otherwise you wouldn't throw in some random buzzphrases, right? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Unless you plan to make a living refuting his work with the power of common sense, I don't really think it's worth reading at all.
<!--QuoteBegin-CommunistWithAGun+Aug 27 2004, 10:41 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CommunistWithAGun @ Aug 27 2004, 10:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> So you say "Get a job!' You can't survive on minimum wage. "GO TO COLLEGE THEN" Right, you want someone who started out poor to try and pay for college? Grants and scholorships only go so far. "Join the military reserve for college!" Right there is another nice convienece the United States has. Exploit the poor by cutting education funds, forcing them into finding alternate financial aid. The aid is the military which powers US imperialism. Don't argue my avatar symbolizes hate. Your opinions symbolize hundreds of years of sweat, blood, and the lives of countless unfortunates. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Bull, CWAG.
My grandfather's grandfatherfather came over on the boat from Ireland with his family during the potato famine. They worked in the cities, went west, and got a small farm in Missouri.
His son took over the farm, and HIS son took an interest in machines. He joined the navy in World War 2, working on ships that, lest we forget, ousted one of the most evil regimes the world has ever known. After the war got a job as a plant engineer with Ford Motor Company.
His son, my father, went to college and now works full time as a restauant manager, to allow his son to post on an internet message board and spread capitalist propaganda. In the fall I'll be starting Honors Chemistry at the Ohio State University, tuition free, thanks to a Post-Secondary Enrollment Option, offered through, get this, a government entity. My sister is currently aspiring to become a Veterinarian, as well.
Please CWAG, how is it that a poor Irish mic can not only prosper, but start a family whose newest members are not only living in comfort, but are attending college, and are well on thier way to becoming prosperous citizens themselves? Especially in the oppressive capitalist society you describe.
Im sorry I must have been blinded by the fact I haven't been allowed in several colleges and denied grant money and scholarships because Im not a minority. You tell me where the failure is, your greed mongering or the fact I have to settle because Im poor and white.
I find it funny that without this 'greed mongering' you wouldn't even be able to post on this forum (or any forum).
*edit* if you had done well in school, i'm sure you could have gotten scholarships. Study for your SAT's. i remember being offered several full-ride scholarships because of how i did in high school...and even though they weren't really good schools, it was free nonetheless.
<!--QuoteBegin-CommunistWithAGun+Aug 28 2004, 12:22 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CommunistWithAGun @ Aug 28 2004, 12:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Im sorry I must have been blinded by the fact I haven't been allowed in several colleges and denied grant money and scholarships because Im not a minority. You tell me where the failure is, your greed mongering or the fact I have to settle because Im poor and white. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Plenty of white people from poor backgrounds go to college on grant money and scholarships. My next door neighbor is hardly rich, and we had often talked about how he was going to get to college and he had been flat out told by his parents that they couldn't afford a decent one.
So he worked his **** off and did amazingly well in 11th grade, scored great on his SAT and worked his **** off again in 12th grade taking classes that he most certainly didn't have to take.
Didn't get a damn thing.
Did that stop him? No. He’s now working 2 jobs and combining that money with what his parents saved he is able to attend Penn State U. and is studying computer networking.
Honestly, I don't know why you think the government owes you anything, the opportunity is there no matter what.
<!--QuoteBegin-reasa+Aug 28 2004, 12:34 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (reasa @ Aug 28 2004, 12:34 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-CommunistWithAGun+Aug 28 2004, 12:22 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CommunistWithAGun @ Aug 28 2004, 12:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Im sorry I must have been blinded by the fact I haven't been allowed in several colleges and denied grant money and scholarships because Im not a minority. You tell me where the failure is, your greed mongering or the fact I have to settle because Im poor and white. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Plenty of white people from poor backgrounds go to college on grant money and scholarships. My next door neighbor is hardly rich, and we had often talked about how he was going to get to college and he had been flat out told by his parents that they couldn't afford a decent one.
So he worked his **** off and did amazingly well in 11th grade, scored great on his SAT and worked his **** of again in 12th grade taking classes that he most certainly didn't have to take.
Didn't get a damn thing.
Did that stop him? No. He’s now working 2 jobs and combining that money with what his parents saved he is able to attend Penn State U. and is studying computer networking.
Honestly, I don't know why you think government owes you anything, the opportunity is there no matter what. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> [OT] holy ****, UPenn? That's a freaking expensive school.
That's why I'm against Affirmative Action. It makes liberals feel all good inside and only do detrimental and dividing things to the USA.
CWAG bro, you're playing for the wrong side of the fence. Your oppurtunities aren't being taken away by big corporations, instead by bleeding heart celebrities. No one here is greedy. We don't look down upon you because of the socio-economic status you were born into. You've got as much or more potential to succeed as anyone else on this forum.
Guess what though? I'm not going to college next year. Why? Well, I might be able to pay for some of it through financial aid, but in the end run I'd be getting out of college saddled with nasty student loans. So, instead, I'm going into the workforce fulltime for a few years, and using that capital to invest in businesses and create my own. Some of those big, nasty, lying "pyramid schemes" aren't as bad as they're made out to be by the media, and I know from personal experience that if you're willing to work, you can make a lot through them. There are also a lot more jobs out there than you'd expect, and at least one of them you could jump into and use as a stepping stone.
I'm not a greedy capitalist; I just recognize that money is the vehicle that will take me to my dreams in life and enable me to live life the way I want to. Money is a vehicle for me, not a dream in itself.
<!--QuoteBegin-CommunistWithAGun+Aug 28 2004, 12:22 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CommunistWithAGun @ Aug 28 2004, 12:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Im sorry I must have been blinded by the fact I haven't been allowed in several colleges and denied grant money and scholarships because Im not a minority. You tell me where the failure is, your greed mongering or the fact I have to settle because Im poor and white. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> It is your fault.
I graduated high school with barely passing grades. I got a 32 on my ACT. Around this time my parents got a divorce and I barely see my dad anymore. My mom and I still get alimony but it's a very pathetic amount. She set up a home business selling collectible model horses, and is getting a job on the side. I took a year off, we moved to the state where I wanted to go to school to get in-state tuition charges. I worked for the year, accumulated about $4,000, applied for Financial Aid and got this:
Estimated OUT OF STATE tuition: $26,773 Estimated IN STATE tuition: $12,880
Financial aid grants and scholarships: $10,380 Work-Study Award: $2,200 - This means I get a job on-campus and work off that amount. I sit in a computer lab and do nothing.
Total estimated cost of my tuition: $300
Funny story - They estimate $900 on books for a whole year ($450 a semester) and my books cost me about $300, so it's costing me $150.
So look. I get into a great university, almost a totally free ride, I bombed high-school but did great on my ACT and look what I got.
I conclude either you are:
1) An idiot and didn't even TRY to succeed in school. 2) So lazy you expect everything handed to you free. 3) Both.
Communism is an ideal of the poor, the lazy, and commonly, morons. They want want everything handed to them on a silver platter. And you're angry at the 'rich white upperclass' because you're a miserable little failure with no ideals and no ethic to succeed.
Comments
So you say "Get a job!' You can't survive on minimum wage. "GO TO COLLEGE THEN" Right, you want someone who started out poor to try and pay for college? Grants and scholorships only go so far. "Join the military reserve for college!" Right there is another nice convienece the United States has. Exploit the poor by cutting education funds, forcing them into finding alternate financial aid. The aid is the military which powers US imperialism. Don't argue my avatar symbolizes hate. Your opinions symbolize hundreds of years of sweat, blood, and the lives of countless unfortunates. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ahem. I don't know why I see this argument all the time, but having equal opportunity doesn't mean we're all facsimiles. And the only non-naive way to expect people to ever try to have exactly equal opportunity is to have some sort of social/genetic engineering project to have people be facsimiles.
Please. Since when is secondary education a right? Government isn't even obligated to provide schooling services. And you *can* survive on minimum wage, many many people do it every day (they have to hold down more than one job though).
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You hipocrite, if I were to say that the crucafix was a symbol of tyrany and evil (remember the crusades? The inquisition?) you would flame me off the face of the earth, yet here you post similar rubbish. The hammer and sickle are traditionaly symbols of the working class.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
alright, I'll bite. The crusades were in response to Muslim invasion of Jerusalem. That's right. Also, the crucifix has been behind almost all of western medicine and schooling, up to the last century. Who provided care for the sick, food for the poor, and education to the ignorant? Not the government, that's for sure.
The most booming and powerful economy in the world second to none, a record surpasing all with the except of its war record. It would seem by some insight that its economy was fueled by war, without it many products would stop production. Every decade in the modern era there has been some sort of conflict involving the nation. Everyone drinks cola, and public opinion is throttled with an alert system cleverly disguised as a warning tool. The nation is freedomless, but it is cleverly disguised as the most free nation of the world. The nation is notorious for its conflicts with ideals of peace, equality, and other freedoms. Selling out its populace to fund the war effort is merely an investment which returns come in the form of overseas production and cheap labor. A aristocracy claiming democracy. The corporations control everything that people do, what they eat, what they wear, and how they live based on ideals that are unattainable. The nation had developped nuclear weapons in its second century, a double edged sword. It created a shaky and unwanted peace between rival industrialized nations. Without war the economy had suffered, yet war could spell nuclear arms exchange. A clever idea of "assisting" a small "allied" southern pacific nation experiencing civil war became the solution. Victory was not requried, merely production. A sad state of doomed, despairing, opressed, and redicuously stupid herd of sheep.
I want everyone to take this at face value and comment (if you want) based on what you read. This has not been grammar and spell checked so I apollogize ahead of time. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
wow..... if you don't like this country so much why don't you go find a better one? go have fun somewhere else comrad no freedom, your looking red buddy, and by that I mean you prefer a hammer and sicle over a hamburger! but yeah no nation or goverment is perfect, but people like you only focus on the negative. if instead of sitting around complaing all day you just did something productive maybe the world wouldn't be like it is. thats all I have for you comrad
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
alright, I'll bite. The crusades were in response to Muslim invasion of Jerusalem. That's right. Also, the crucifix has been behind almost all of western medicine and schooling, up to the last century. Who provided care for the sick, food for the poor, and education to the ignorant? Not the government, that's for sure.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You've entirely missed the point. The point is that the Hammer And Sickle is no more a symbol of tyrany than the crucifix. Both were symbols used by people in power who committed attrocities (Crusades aside [I could disect your argument, but it'd be a waste of time and further derail the thread], the inquisition certainly counts as an attrocity in my book), yet neither actually symbolizes those attrocities.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> wow..... if you don't like this country so much why don't you go find a better one?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Man do I ever get sick of hearing this one. I was born in THIS country, it is my duty as a citizen to try and fix it's problems. If we all just shut up and never complained about anything where would we be?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->if instead of sitting around complaing all day you just did something productive maybe the world wouldn't be like it is.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Something productive? If we protest we get called traitors and commies, if we express our ideas in an internet forum we get flamed, if we take a more aggressive approach then we're terrorists or nutjobs (see: PETA). Just what in the **** do you expect us to do? Should we just stay quiet and write letters to our congressperson's trash bin?
bleh.
Man do I ever get sick of hearing this one. I was born in THIS country, it is my duty as a citizen to try and fix it's problems. If we all just shut up and never complained about anything where would we be? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Pretty much where China, Russia, North Korea and Cuba are now.
Man do I ever get sick of hearing this one. I was born in THIS country, it is my duty as a citizen to try and fix it's problems. If we all just shut up and never complained about anything where would we be? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Pretty much where China, Russia, North Korea and Cuba are now. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Zing! /me high-5's EEK. nice one.
Before the rise of Fascism, the Swastika was a symbol of something else - but from WW2 onwards it will ever be associated with tyranny and misery. The Soviets took the hammer and sickle and made it the icon of their reign of terror - and just like the swastika, thats exactly what I'm reminded of every time I see it. It has been used in mass slaughter as early as 15 years ago.
And in comparison - you have to trot out what? Events from 300 - 1000 years ago to go hunting after the crucifix? It doesnt bother you that in the mean time that symbol has also been carried at the forefront of humanitarianism, peace and medicine for at least as long? Sorry, but I see a clear difference there.
And CWAG, if you want to start talking frags counts, this is going to go very, very, very badly for you. In the two primary "Christian Wars" about 1,000,000 people died in the crusades, less than half a million died in the Inquistion - Stalins personal frag count is around 100 million, and I havent even got started on Mao, Pol pot etc.....
Spooge pretty much dealt with the "Not everyones equal so my post is bunk" idea. There have been more than enough stories of people facing the worst situations and dragging themselves out by their bootstraps. They didnt sit around blaming Bush, they didnt give up and start carrying signs, they damn well struggled out under their own steam. Capitalism rewards those who try the hardest, who take the initiative, and who give the consumer what they want. Whining about how unfortunate you are because you werent born a Kennedy isnt going to get you an education.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Something productive? If we protest we get called traitors and commies, if we express our ideas in an internet forum we get flamed, if we take a more aggressive approach then we're terrorists or nutjobs (see: PETA). Just what in the **** do you expect us to do? Should we just stay quiet and write letters to our congressperson's trash bin? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Seems like your suffering from a big dose of democracy. In this weird little system, if less than half the population agrees with you, then your idea does not get implemented. If you dont like it, then convince them otherwise. But if you cant, then please dont whine that the system = teh evilz0r.
Not totally <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> Sometimes it takes 2/3rds a vote <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
So you say "Get a job!' You can't survive on minimum wage. "GO TO COLLEGE THEN" Right, you want someone who started out poor to try and pay for college? Grants and scholorships only go so far. "Join the military reserve for college!" Right there is another nice convienece the United States has. Exploit the poor by cutting education funds, forcing them into finding alternate financial aid. The aid is the military which powers US imperialism. Don't argue my avatar symbolizes hate. Your opinions symbolize hundreds of years of sweat, blood, and the lives of countless unfortunates. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ahem. I don't know why I see this argument all the time, but having equal opportunity doesn't mean we're all facsimiles. And the only non-naive way to expect people to ever try to have exactly equal opportunity is to have some sort of social/genetic engineering project to have people be facsimiles.
Please. Since when is secondary education a right? Government isn't even obligated to provide schooling services. And you *can* survive on minimum wage, many many people do it every day (they have to hold down more than one job though).
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You hipocrite, if I were to say that the crucafix was a symbol of tyrany and evil (remember the crusades? The inquisition?) you would flame me off the face of the earth, yet here you post similar rubbish. The hammer and sickle are traditionaly symbols of the working class.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
alright, I'll bite. The crusades were in response to Muslim invasion of Jerusalem. That's right. Also, the crucifix has been behind almost all of western medicine and schooling, up to the last century. Who provided care for the sick, food for the poor, and education to the ignorant? Not the government, that's for sure. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
The purpose of government is to protect the people. I think that should file under protecting their interests to maintain a somewhat decent life.
The most booming and powerful economy in the world second to none, a record surpasing all with the except of its war record. It would seem by some insight that its economy was fueled by war, without it many products would stop production. Every decade in the modern era there has been some sort of conflict involving the nation. Everyone drinks cola, and public opinion is throttled with an alert system cleverly disguised as a warning tool. The nation is freedomless, but it is cleverly disguised as the most free nation of the world. The nation is notorious for its conflicts with ideals of peace, equality, and other freedoms. Selling out its populace to fund the war effort is merely an investment which returns come in the form of overseas production and cheap labor. A aristocracy claiming democracy. The corporations control everything that people do, what they eat, what they wear, and how they live based on ideals that are unattainable. The nation had developped nuclear weapons in its second century, a double edged sword. It created a shaky and unwanted peace between rival industrialized nations. Without war the economy had suffered, yet war could spell nuclear arms exchange. A clever idea of "assisting" a small "allied" southern pacific nation experiencing civil war became the solution. Victory was not requried, merely production. A sad state of doomed, despairing, opressed, and redicuously stupid herd of sheep.
I want everyone to take this at face value and comment (if you want) based on what you read. This has not been grammar and spell checked so I apollogize ahead of time. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
wow..... if you don't like this country so much why don't you go find a better one? go have fun somewhere else comrad no freedom, your looking red buddy, and by that I mean you prefer a hammer and sicle over a hamburger! but yeah no nation or goverment is perfect, but people like you only focus on the negative. if instead of sitting around complaing all day you just did something productive maybe the world wouldn't be like it is. thats all I have for you comrad <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
All I have to say to that is "LMAO" and I think you know why. If not maybe you don't belong here
America is founded on business. That is its goal, its drive, the very thing that keeps it here. The idea that anyone can start a business that can succeed is something so foreign to the world, and so everyone comes here.
Our system rewards the best man in the group, unlike any other system on the face of the earth. It's a system that is so brutally fair that people like you hate it. Yes, some people lie/cheat/steal, but that happens in every system. It's not the norm, never has been, and never will be.
Capitalism has shown that it works, that people can succeed far more than they could with the government "helping" (controlling??) them. A socialist system, because it provides everyone with a job and no one with oppurtunity, acts as a limiter on its population. In a capitalist system, everyone's given the oppurtunity and no one's given a job. It's as fair as it could ever get, because people are deciding how successful they are, instead of a massive government beauracracy.
The number of services available to people that are poor are astounding. There are so many non-profit organizations that provide community classes, not to mention there is still a fair amount of aid coming from the government to help those people back on their feet. I prefer the non profit organizations over the government, as the government is the least efficient at providing services.
Also CWAG, I'm not sure if you've read up on history, but communism doesn't work. Marx's original formula for pretty-rainbow-flowers-drug induced utopia was this:
1.) Bloody Revolution (kill the rich)
2.) Dictatorship of the Proletariot (smooth transition to flowerness, never gets past this)
3.) Utopia (ewwww)
Note dictatorship. Note it. And again, note it. It sets out to fail from its very beginning. Unless you plan on coming up with a new and less problematic way to transition from a bloody revolution to a pretty utopia, you might as well give up your support for a cause that was proved lost after the Russian Revolution.
1.) Bloody Revolution (kill the rich)
2.) Dictatorship of the Proletariot (smooth transition to flowerness, never gets past this)
3.) Utopia
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not seeing a problem with this at all
1.) Bloody Revolution (kill the rich)
2.) Dictatorship of the Proletariot (smooth transition to flowerness, never gets past this)
3.) Utopia (ewwww)
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
So I assume you have actually read Marx' work. Because otherwise you wouldn't throw in some random buzzphrases, right?
I seem to remember watching a short documentary during the Olympics about the USA's long distance runner (I can't believe I've forgotten the name). He and his family (15+ people) fled from some small African country I'd never even heard of before, came here, settled in San Diego, and set out to fulfil their dreams. Let's see, obviously one child became a world-class athlete, while other siblings received their MBAs, one became a doctor, one a lawyer, others are in graduate school or college right now; the point is, these people came here with NOTHING going for them, in fact the father still supports his family as a taxi driver. But those children WORKED for what they wanted, and now they are all highly successful people. I can hardly see how this is an oppressive system; it's only oppressive if you suppress your potential.
Nice try in discrediting my post, but I won't let your lack of a real reply slide past so easily.
Step 1: Take an economics course where you learn about different systems.
Step 2: Apply knowledge learned in there, as well as in political magazines, outside sources, and encyclopedias.
Step 3: Add a relevant point to a discussion on these systems.
Step 4: Stomp posts attacking credibility instead of fact.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm not seeing a problem with this at all <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I am. Communist and Socialist utopias sprung up all over the place in the mid-late 1800's; pretty much all of them failed. Communism and Socialism are <b>limiters</b>, particularly Communism. It strives to be completely equal, a system where everyone works. The thing it leaves out is that there is no way to get ahead in this system. If you work really hard, you don't get anything more out of it than if you did the absolute bare minimum. With little to no hard work ethic being utilized, the beautiful utopia falls apart. Communism fails again.
Communism would also have to outlaw money of any kind, which would obviously mean a full on barter system, something impossible to manage and keep flowing. Therefore, it would have to adopt a monetary system, at which point it commits suicide, since people would seek to have <b>more</b> money, and a group of people that works harder than everyone else will accumulate more money, therefore gain more influence, thus creating an imbalance.
Capitalism feeds off of that inherent imbalance. Some people are lazy, some people are not. Capitalism rewards the hard working by giving the lazy person's share of wealth to the harder working person. The lazy person feels bad about himself, and decides to blame the harder working person, who is then resentful of the lazy person, at which point the class system is born. However, the lazy person refuses to acknowledge the fact that they have the ability to invest in that other person's business or to start their own.
Are all people who work hard at regular jobs lazy? Well, obviously not. However, they're not utilizing their talents to get ahead. Everyone has the ability to start and maintain a small, but profitable, business, or to invest in someone else's profitable business. Therefore, capitalism has no pity on the working man who does not make profit from another source.
Capitalism is that freedom to do what you want with what you have. It's individually based.
Communism is not a free system. You cannot do what you want with what you have, because the community requires you to do something else. Therefore, it's community based. Thus the "commune."
Unless you plan to make a living refuting his work with the power of common sense, I don't really think it's worth reading at all.
So you say "Get a job!' You can't survive on minimum wage. "GO TO COLLEGE THEN" Right, you want someone who started out poor to try and pay for college? Grants and scholorships only go so far. "Join the military reserve for college!" Right there is another nice convienece the United States has. Exploit the poor by cutting education funds, forcing them into finding alternate financial aid. The aid is the military which powers US imperialism. Don't argue my avatar symbolizes hate. Your opinions symbolize hundreds of years of sweat, blood, and the lives of countless unfortunates. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Bull, CWAG.
My grandfather's grandfatherfather came over on the boat from Ireland with his family during the potato famine. They worked in the cities, went west, and got a small farm in Missouri.
His son took over the farm, and HIS son took an interest in machines. He joined the navy in World War 2, working on ships that, lest we forget, ousted one of the most evil regimes the world has ever known. After the war got a job as a plant engineer with Ford Motor Company.
His son, my father, went to college and now works full time as a restauant manager, to allow his son to post on an internet message board and spread capitalist propaganda. In the fall I'll be starting Honors Chemistry at the Ohio State University, tuition free, thanks to a Post-Secondary Enrollment Option, offered through, get this, a government entity. My sister is currently aspiring to become a Veterinarian, as well.
Please CWAG, how is it that a poor Irish mic can not only prosper, but start a family whose newest members are not only living in comfort, but are attending college, and are well on thier way to becoming prosperous citizens themselves? Especially in the oppressive capitalist society you describe.
*edit* if you had done well in school, i'm sure you could have gotten scholarships. Study for your SAT's. i remember being offered several full-ride scholarships because of how i did in high school...and even though they weren't really good schools, it was free nonetheless.
Plenty of white people from poor backgrounds go to college on grant money and scholarships. My next door neighbor is hardly rich, and we had often talked about how he was going to get to college and he had been flat out told by his parents that they couldn't afford a decent one.
So he worked his **** off and did amazingly well in 11th grade, scored great on his SAT and worked his **** off again in 12th grade taking classes that he most certainly didn't have to take.
Didn't get a damn thing.
Did that stop him? No. He’s now working 2 jobs and combining that money with what his parents saved he is able to attend Penn State U. and is studying computer networking.
Honestly, I don't know why you think the government owes you anything, the opportunity is there no matter what.
Plenty of white people from poor backgrounds go to college on grant money and scholarships. My next door neighbor is hardly rich, and we had often talked about how he was going to get to college and he had been flat out told by his parents that they couldn't afford a decent one.
So he worked his **** off and did amazingly well in 11th grade, scored great on his SAT and worked his **** of again in 12th grade taking classes that he most certainly didn't have to take.
Didn't get a damn thing.
Did that stop him? No. He’s now working 2 jobs and combining that money with what his parents saved he is able to attend Penn State U. and is studying computer networking.
Honestly, I don't know why you think government owes you anything, the opportunity is there no matter what. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
[OT] holy ****, UPenn? That's a freaking expensive school.
CWAG bro, you're playing for the wrong side of the fence. Your oppurtunities aren't being taken away by big corporations, instead by bleeding heart celebrities. No one here is greedy. We don't look down upon you because of the socio-economic status you were born into. You've got as much or more potential to succeed as anyone else on this forum.
Guess what though? I'm not going to college next year. Why? Well, I might be able to pay for some of it through financial aid, but in the end run I'd be getting out of college saddled with nasty student loans. So, instead, I'm going into the workforce fulltime for a few years, and using that capital to invest in businesses and create my own. Some of those big, nasty, lying "pyramid schemes" aren't as bad as they're made out to be by the media, and I know from personal experience that if you're willing to work, you can make a lot through them. There are also a lot more jobs out there than you'd expect, and at least one of them you could jump into and use as a stepping stone.
I'm not a greedy capitalist; I just recognize that money is the vehicle that will take me to my dreams in life and enable me to live life the way I want to. Money is a vehicle for me, not a dream in itself.
It is your fault.
I graduated high school with barely passing grades. I got a 32 on my ACT. Around this time my parents got a divorce and I barely see my dad anymore. My mom and I still get alimony but it's a very pathetic amount. She set up a home business selling collectible model horses, and is getting a job on the side. I took a year off, we moved to the state where I wanted to go to school to get in-state tuition charges. I worked for the year, accumulated about $4,000, applied for Financial Aid and got this:
Estimated OUT OF STATE tuition: $26,773
Estimated IN STATE tuition: $12,880
Financial aid grants and scholarships: $10,380
Work-Study Award: $2,200 - This means I get a job on-campus and work off that amount. I sit in a computer lab and do nothing.
Total estimated cost of my tuition: $300
Funny story - They estimate $900 on books for a whole year ($450 a semester) and my books cost me about $300, so it's costing me $150.
So look. I get into a great university, almost a totally free ride, I bombed high-school but did great on my ACT and look what I got.
I conclude either you are:
1) An idiot and didn't even TRY to succeed in school.
2) So lazy you expect everything handed to you free.
3) Both.
Communism is an ideal of the poor, the lazy, and commonly, morons. They want want everything handed to them on a silver platter. And you're angry at the 'rich white upperclass' because you're a miserable little failure with no ideals and no ethic to succeed.
If you want to discuss the current state of the nation, feel free to start a new topic.
If you want to discuss the flaws and merits of capitalism and communism, feel free to create a topic to do so IN A RESPECTFUL MANNER.
If you want to sling witty comebacks at each other, find another forum to do it in.