Stating The Obvious
CommunistWithAGun
Local Propaganda Guy Join Date: 2003-04-30 Member: 15953Members
Local Propaganda Guy Join Date: 2003-04-30 Member: 15953Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Or obviously stating..</div> After 2.0 this game lost its chance to be great, a backup mode to attract people, "Combat" has more fun than regular NS mode (why I started playing back 2 years ago) The main dev pays little to no attention to it anymore, and if he does he sure isn't letting everyone know. Balance in NS mode is down the toilet, they nullified the veterans group (skilled CAL players who made suggestions and worked 1on1 with flayra for balance)
After all this the mod is doomed. Instead of fixing key gameplay issues they simply add more cosmetic crap that nobody needs or even wants. A shame this used to be such a fun mod. I hope it does not make the cross to Hl2 unless things are completely redone- properly.
This is NOT meant to be a personal attack, and its merely an observation. I can understand Flayra working on his own business, but I've seen I think *one* on these boards in the past 2 months. Forlorn mentioned also in the newest announcement thread that <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The truth is "The community" consists of a few individuals who have real say on who gets into the program, the lead picker with 90% of the decision being Nem0.
If PT's were made through other means we'd see more (qualified) playtesters in the field. Currently they are picked on arbitrary values such as "niceness" or "coolness".<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A sad but real problem. The veteran program wasn't not working, it was poor execution and PT lead's faults for being unorganized. Now without the veteran group you have unskilled, inexperienced in a clan setting, people balancing the game, I think thats a problem.
Comment as you may but don't try contradicting the obvious, it will only make you look like an ****.
After all this the mod is doomed. Instead of fixing key gameplay issues they simply add more cosmetic crap that nobody needs or even wants. A shame this used to be such a fun mod. I hope it does not make the cross to Hl2 unless things are completely redone- properly.
This is NOT meant to be a personal attack, and its merely an observation. I can understand Flayra working on his own business, but I've seen I think *one* on these boards in the past 2 months. Forlorn mentioned also in the newest announcement thread that <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The truth is "The community" consists of a few individuals who have real say on who gets into the program, the lead picker with 90% of the decision being Nem0.
If PT's were made through other means we'd see more (qualified) playtesters in the field. Currently they are picked on arbitrary values such as "niceness" or "coolness".<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A sad but real problem. The veteran program wasn't not working, it was poor execution and PT lead's faults for being unorganized. Now without the veteran group you have unskilled, inexperienced in a clan setting, people balancing the game, I think thats a problem.
Comment as you may but don't try contradicting the obvious, it will only make you look like an ****.
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
The main problem is balancing combat and clasic at the same time imo.
Combat has ripped the soul out of NS in a desprate attempt to get more people playing, which has led to the elitism within NS due to people only playing combat to get good scores. Then taking this idea into clasic has resulted in rambos and a lack of good public commanders.
Shame nothing will change if flayra keeps pushing NS from a hardcore community to a new CS.
What I am worried about is that if all the PTs stay, they are not likely to come up with any kind of radical change that would improve the game. Not because they are stupid (not necessarily anyway) but because they are more conservative (or will become). Balance is one thing, mechanics is another. Changing the health and armor values is fine and all, but quite useless if the theory behind the health and armor is wrong to start with. The last real change to mechanics was the hive-independant life forms back in 1.0x. Since then, I've only seen balance tweaks and cosmetics. Since the interest in the I&S forum was nearly nothing after 2.0 came out, I don't see the situation changing.
To be fair, Zunni arrived a while ago and said that things would change in that aspect. I'm still skeptical however.
Of course, while fixing the community will fix NS, at the same time, NS will never be fixed until the community is. Yet, as mentioned, nothing is fixing the community at present. So, for the moment, we're somewhat trapped.
Now, you're wondering: Do I have a solution?
<b>No.</b>
That is why we need someone else.
The employment of Zunni to help plug the gap between the developers and the community is a good start, but not the entire solution. There needs to be something... <i>more</i>. And hopefully, we can rely on the changing situation to cause something.
Now, there are two factors that are causes for optimism.
The first is Zunni, as mentioned.
The second is that Flayra, if perhaps only in a limited fashion (though hopefully in a larger way), has also recently made his presence known, with the seemingly token news update, and his response to another thread in the General Discussion forum. Hopefully this means that right now, at this seemingly critical time, he will be able to hear the cries of the heart and soul of the community directly. Zunni is good, but as a long-term patch, if you will; for the moment, we need the real deal. Hopefully, we'll be getting more of that, and if we do, things might just improve.
If not, well... it isn't looking good. But I, for one, am going to half-fill my glass.
If you're not having fun, quit. Don't whine about it.
Veteran program was terminated for a good reason, everyone who wanted in could get in, the playtester group is more excusive and generally more skilled, but limited in numbers group.
I think the biggest single mistake that was made with this game was, trying to balance combat and classic at the same time... That just through off all the values and now aliens cant perform their roles correctly (onus) until that is changed classic will never up to par...
I’m confused as to why they are trying to make beta 5 such a huge patch... If they have so many bug fixes why won’t they release them? They have been saying that beta 5 is not the final version, so release the improvements that have been made so we can enjoy them and you can keep working on fixing more bugs...
To comment the rest:
PT are not supposed to suggest new ideas, we are here to test things and provide feedback. Changes and ideas are up to devs.. But some PT are still proposing crazy S&I ideas :-)
Next beta of version 3 will probably not bring dramatic changes to NS, although balance in NS is being improved and there are changes that will be certainly welcomed by players.
My patience is running thin however, as nothing seems to be happening and the only signs of life are referrals to an obscure bug tracker and a couple of screenshots showing nothing to warrant all the waiting, just minor tweaks that could have been made in days, not months.
that's not exactly helping you know <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> ...
To comment the rest:
PT are not supposed to suggest new ideas, we are here to test things and provide feedback. Changes and ideas are up to devs.. But some PT are still proposing crazy S&I ideas :-)
Next beta of version 3 will probably not bring dramatic changes to NS, although balance in NS is being improved and there are changes that will be certainly welcomed by players. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I should state I hardly play NS anymore, and after playing in a clans for about a year (I think) I realize that ns pub play is a complete waste of time. However Combat is very fun, regardless.
I think the main problem is there is too much teamwork and crutches in NS. Sure teamwork is awesome but there should be a limit. I should NOT be punished for 30 minutes because someone else dosen't know whats going on. Projects like Ns learn are not a solution, that only slightly remedies the symptom. I really wish I could suggest some way to fix it, other than removing heavy armor, and ALL static defenses. There needs to be a little less required teamwork also...just my thoughts
Also, if you aren't pleased with Beta 4, you shouldn't get excited over beta5 (3.0 final?)
Then it's actually even worse than I thought. Then *no one* is suggesting original ideas. Alright, the devs might, but after having developed a game for a few years already, people do tend to think along the same lines as before. Not very helpful if you need to change direction.
Breaking the habit is sort of what I thought the I&S forum was supposed to be for. For tweaking balance, I&S is useless. Flayra already have access to all the data he needs, and unlike I&S, that data is uncorrupted. Unfortunately, free thinking seems to be against the rules around here, and I don't see anything improving unless that's changed.
Flayra is active just not in the public eye. Of course to be fair, he doesn't need to be, he can read whichever posts he likes, gather whatever data from whatever sources he feels he needs and continue working in the background.
Flayra has outlined (internally) several large feature inducing changes for future versions, so large feature-like changes are still being worked on/talked about, just because he doesn't reply to a thread in I&S doesn't mean that he never reads it, or doesn't have his own ideas.
I'm not sure why people think they need Flayra to post here all the time, his time is better served getting financial backing for UWE, so this site and all the work/money he's put into it doesn't disappear one day. Flayra has spent a tonne of his own time/money putting NS together and it's still a priority. But it won't pay his bills, you can't blame him for putting the priority on things that will allow him to continue eating.
My job is to serve as the conduit between Flayra and you (along with Nem Zero), and I think in the 3 weeks I've been doing this, you have been updated more than before any other release. I still have several things we are discussing that will lead to more clarification and information from him, and there are several more things that I have still to ask him about.
So, please be patient as things have gotten better and will continue to get so. I know it's been a long wait, but trust me, we continue to get closer every day.
If you have any questions about this, or anything else I've ever posted, please don't hesisitate to PM me.
Yeah he nullified it because they didn't do their job. They played combat nonstop and had to be forced to play regular NS. And guess what happened when they shut down the combat servers? About half the vets stopped playing altogether. Forlorn is one of them as am I and about 99% of the vet community. I was up Elven Thief butt almost the entire time during the 2.1 playtest about how there's no damn point of all these vets as they're not even playing NS. I was part of the problem I admit but the vet program was a failure on the vets shoulders noone elses. We had our chance and spit on it.
And in all honesty you've got to have the game design to balance it for pubs and clan play at the same time easily. NS doesn't cater to this sadly and will always cause problems if you try to balance one or the other
Like forlorn I don't have a clue how to fix it. Possibly getting rid of some of the inactive PT's would work. Then the problem arises on who should take their place (Sit down forlorn) that's where we'll run into a problem. You can't please everyone and personally I'd rather see a guy who plays NS regularly, is good and has the intelligence to match how good he isa over a guy who plays theory-selection with numbers and claiming he is right vehemently while bouncing up and down whilst unable to prove it besides theory that odds are won't work out.
I'm not pointing any fingers. I really aint
In a way, I still both liked & disliked the entire now-defunct Vet system. On the one, it brought some of the most 'CS Minded' (As in the insult, not the game itself) group of players in, and that showed in the change in gamestyle. On the other, it helped produce a game that was hugely more competitive, unlike 1.04 where it was fine as long as no-one used JP/HMG, ever, amongst other things. One of the biggest challeneges in testing is realising how differently a pub game of NS plays compared to a clan one. The difference (relative to pretty much any other game outside of pure RTS I've played) is enormous.
However recently, there's a lot of activity internally, but Zunni is only just starting to get to grips with keeping everyone external up to speed. And that's a hard job, because one week there'll be some new great thing to try, another it'll be 'See how this plays with this one increment change'.
I'm a huge fan of NS, and I think I always will be, as I keep a soft spot for it regardless. I agreed when it was said it's probably a lost cause to attempt to perfectly balance both CO & NS, and the entire PT group has differing opinions on the best way to deal with that. (I personally [as I've stated here too] have always advocated letting CO remain the 'secondary' gamemode, and concentrate on making NS better). As it's been said, we don't have any leeway to make changes in the game, just give feedback on the changes the Developers choose to make.
It's their call in the end.
I don't know what (apart from Zunni posting 'official' statements, and the PT group just showing they're active) can convince people that things are continuously evolving & changing, but they are. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
- Shockwave -
I think the main problem is there is too much teamwork and crutches in NS. Sure teamwork is awesome but there should be a limit. I should NOT be punished for 30 minutes because someone else dosen't know whats going on. Projects like Ns learn are not a solution, that only slightly remedies the symptom. I really wish I could suggest some way to fix it, other than removing heavy armor, and ALL static defenses. There needs to be a little less required teamwork also...just my thoughts
Also, if you aren't pleased with Beta 4, you shouldn't get excited over beta5 (3.0 final?) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Game ruined by other people is the price we pay for the teamplay element in NS. But it's fair price. NS is very unique, it needs cooperation, it needs teamplay to win..
Be it cooperation between commander and the team, or between whole alien team, it's often very demanding and very satisfying if it works. You don't need to communicate or cooperate that much in any other action game.
Winning over enemy team with turret farms and HA because of great teamwork gives you great feeling of achievement. I love NS because of its team and strategy elements.
If you cannot live with rare occasions when game is ruined by bad teamwork, it's probably not game for you and you should really stick with combat or leave the game immediately when you feel that it's "ruined"..
(And I really don't remember game ruined by one person that would take 30 mins to finish ..)
<b>"I could ballance this better myself."</b>
Maybe they're right, maybe they're wrong, but that is that case.
You know me personally, and you know that if you want to talk to me, you can find me here or on IRC almost 24 hours a day..
<!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Flayra is active just not in the public eye. Of course to be fair, he doesn't need to be, he can read whichever posts he likes, gather whatever data from whatever sources he feels he needs and continue working in the background.
Flayra has outlined (internally) several large feature inducing changes for future versions, so large feature-like changes are still being worked on/talked about, just because he doesn't reply to a thread in I&S doesn't mean that he never reads it, or doesn't have his own ideas.
I'm not sure why people think they need Flayra to post here all the time, his time is better served getting financial backing for UWE, so this site and all the work/money he's put into it doesn't disappear one day. Flayra has spent a tonne of his own time/money putting NS together and it's still a priority. But it won't pay his bills, you can't blame him for putting the priority on things that will allow him to continue eating.
My job is to serve as the conduit between Flayra and you (along with Nem Zero), and I think in the 3 weeks I've been doing this, you have been updated more than before any other release. I still have several things we are discussing that will lead to more clarification and information from him, and there are several more things that I have still to ask him about.
So, please be patient as things have gotten better and will continue to get so. I know it's been a long wait, but trust me, we continue to get closer every day.
If you have any questions about this, or anything else I've ever posted, please don't hesisitate to PM me. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
The people on these boards were spoiled in the early days of this game in which Flayra would post on a regular basis.
From the looks of things, beta 5 isn't going to be enough to satisfy the naysayers in the community, so I have a suggestion. When you release beta 5, in addition to listing all of the changes in it, add a section where you describe some of the large scale changes that are planned. In order to stay interested, people really need something to look forward to, and a lot of people don't feel like they have that right now.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->From the looks of things, beta 5 isn't going to be enough to satisfy the naysayers in the community<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
too bad
i don't think any of the developers really care what "the naysayers" think because honestly if a handful of bitter people don't like your game anymore that's really their problem and they should go play something else instead
you can't please everyone all the time
lock please
Can't do that Nem is away on holiday <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I have been around since 1.0 and never have I seen the community so lacking in skilled players (mainly commanders). I asume this is because of new players to the game from 'Browse Games'
Anyway what we need to do it wait for b5 and see what happens, however I dont like having betas, I'd rather have 3.05 or something. Keeping the game in beta takes any blame away from the devs.
However, I agree with you that the game is dying. My opinion is that the dev team's overwhelming desire to expand the community destroyed it. I was happy with the size of our player population back at 1.04. In fact, I loved it. Everyone who played knew how to play and loved the game for what it was. I didn't mind it even when the devs started adding some new things like Devour to maybe try and spiff up the game for new members?
Then combat came out and the community became adulterated with disloyal fans who just wanted to become a rhino in Combat and eat people. my brother started playing ns combat but when i tried to get him to play ns classic he was turned off because when he died as an onos he respawned as a skulk. The purpose of the game is to make sure its fun and people love it. Not to shovel it onto as many ppl as possible.
anyway i only have 3 major problems with the current ns:
1) Combat is destroying it.
2) The maps aren't dark anymore (dark maps made the game rock)
3) Even people like CommunistWithAGun are calling it quits.
Commie, if u ever wanna play some classic ns, my AIM sn is OKELAK just shoot me an ip and i'll attack you.
bert.
I see little to no reason except from the initial arguments to lock this thread, what makes you say this? Did you even bother to read this thread? yes the conversation may be rather bland, but its a hell of a lot more contributed to than most of the garbage you get in this forum <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
btw any european players who want a server that focuses on teamwork and quality of teamwork rather than who has the most frags/who can go onos first/who can knife the most skulks, give me a pm in the next few days there is a slight chance we can get you something sorted [it requires some people to participate and some people to assist in its maintainance].
Yeah he nullified it because they didn't do their job. They played combat nonstop and had to be forced to play regular NS. And guess what happened when they shut down the combat servers? About half the vets stopped playing altogether. Forlorn is one of them as am I and about 99% of the vet community. I was up Elven Thief butt almost the entire time during the 2.1 playtest about how there's no damn point of all these vets as they're not even playing NS. I was part of the problem I admit but the vet program was a failure on the vets shoulders noone elses. We had our chance and spit on it.
And in all honesty you've got to have the game design to balance it for pubs and clan play at the same time easily. NS doesn't cater to this sadly and will always cause problems if you try to balance one or the other
Like forlorn I don't have a clue how to fix it. Possibly getting rid of some of the inactive PT's would work. Then the problem arises on who should take their place (Sit down forlorn) that's where we'll run into a problem. You can't please everyone and personally I'd rather see a guy who plays NS regularly, is good and has the intelligence to match how good he isa over a guy who plays theory-selection with numbers and claiming he is right vehemently while bouncing up and down whilst unable to prove it besides theory that odds are won't work out.
I'm not pointing any fingers. I really aint <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
1. HAMBONE nor Elven Theif never asked for help once. No one had a clue of how in over their heads they were. This is not my fault or yours.
2. Playtesters should be 3 things. Very good players (they should have to be in the top 95% bracket in terms of skill), people who want the game to progress, and dedication. Nothing else should matter. Reputation, personality, and charm are irrelevent.
3. You can't tell me not to be a playtester when in fact you do not meet the ideal playtester qualifications yourself.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->theory-selection with numbers and claiming he is right vehemently while bouncing up and down whilst unable to prove it besides theory that odds are won't work out.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If this is what you really think, then you are wrong.
I like this game. It is my favorite. I just wish there were more qualified people who are "testing" it.
As for changes, there has been one significant change made to the game since it was released: untying life forms from hives. Combat is a new mode and more or less independant from the original game (or at least should be. It might when people in charge realize that the idea of balancing both games with the same settings will not work). Everything else is cosmetics and balance tweaks. I don't really feel the game is a whole lot more balanced now than it was before. If there was another relevant change, do inform me. I can't think of another one.
I think this is where the crux of our differences are Forlorn..
You honestly believe that only the best players can make the game balanced, which might be true to an extent, if what you want is balancing the game for the best players..
However, look at the closed beta processes for any game on the PLANET...
You take some Pr0 players, and some average players.
Why? Because the pr0 players are going to test the limits of the engine, and game play (strategies etc) while the less experienced players are more likely to do the typical end-user type things (click in the wrong spots, input invalid data, attempt to walk in places they shouldn't, etc)
It's the formula that works for every software company from Micro$oft to Bob's house O' Software.
I don't know why you would expect it to work any differently here..
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->2. Playtesters should be 3 things. Very good players (they should have to be in the top 95% bracket in terms of skill), people who want the game to progress, and dedication. Nothing else should matter. Reputation, personality, and charm are irrelevent.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thing about "very good players" is total nonsense :-) Why the hell should be NS tested by "elite", if it's played by "average" players? I believe that PT should be experienced "normal" players. We currently imo have good mix although many PT are very good clan players and PT sessions sometimes look like clanwar. (Often too organized compared to average pub game..)
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was about to breathe a sigh of relief, and be glad that there is much activity in the dev and PT forums. But then I took a double take at your avatar Shockwave... if THAT IS INDEED YOUR NAME!!!!
YOU ARE NONE OTHER THAN ONE OF THE DEVIOUS AND DASTARDLY DECEPTICONS!!! I can't believe the dev group would allow one of you to PT NS, when you are obviously riggin the entire process to somehow obtain more energon cubes.
OH WE ARE WISE TO YOU! You've been able to make energon cubes out of anything, Oil Refineries, HydroElectric Dams, I have NO doubt, that even as we POST, have umpteen nefarious plans to suck NS of all it's energon. I WILL NOT LET THIS PASS!!
Uhm, on a less senile bent, as a never ending fawing NS fanboi, I have no doubt that NS will continue to thrive, if not because it's a great game,and has such a rock solid community, but because there is nothing else that compares to it. No other game community that so fiercely demands community in servers, and teamwork on any server to make it work.
<3