And untill Flayra can ever gather some real stats on things, he should only get oppinions of those who play it best. A dedicated clanner obviously knows what it's like to play in a pub game, and what it's like to play in top notch play. You don't need genius to be a game playtester. The most important thing is skill as well as appreciation for the game. Everything else would follow.
And just for the record, 2.01 is regarded as the most balanced... 2.01 was a product not of PT's, 2.00 was, which was horribly unbalanced. HAMBONE can be given credit for 2.01, and HAMBONE derrived his oppinion from top players as well as experiences from his own clan, which was #1 (most likely in the world) at the time. HAM was the first clan to emphasize good teamwork and a really good commander.
Yes, 2.0x version were balanced for clan play, but remember how they were treated by NS players? There was a lot of whinning that we destroyed game, that it's not fun anymore, it's too fast, fade/onos/skulk sux etc.. "fun" which is partly based on balance is what really matters.
Also, balancing some RTS played on 1v1!! basis, is something completely different from NS.. Yes, in classical RTS, it's best to employ best players in balancing, but NS is team oriented game, there are many people on the server, and you never get elite squad vs. elite squad enviroment. It's not a RTS, it's mostly FPS!
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> 1. HAMBONE nor Elven Theif never asked for help once. No one had a clue of how in over their heads they were. This is not my fault or yours.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Why would they need help? The rule of being a vet was that you scrimmed 5 times a week and you got to stay in the beta. The fact of the matter is I don't think one clanned scrimmed 5 times during the entire period. That's not their fault THAT'S YOURS, OURS EVERY SINGLE VET GET IT THROUGH YOUR HEAD
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->2. Playtesters should be 3 things. Very good players (they should have to be in the top 95% bracket in terms of skill), people who want the game to progress, and dedication. Nothing else should matter. Reputation, personality, and charm are irrelevent.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Top 95%? And you commented on MY reading and writing skills in the previous thread good lord. That's pretty much everyone who's played NS for 2 weeks. And no offense but if you're a dipstick with the personallity of a spoiled brat noone will listen to your input anyway and probably just put them on ignore.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->3. You can't tell me not to be a playtester when in fact you do not meet the ideal playtester qualifications yourself.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't want to be a playtester never did. But you're probably even less qualified than I am. I'd mention why but you'd probably go crying to an admin for me flaming you but by all means come to #clan-complex so I can spell it out in crayon so you'll know why.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If this is what you really think, then you are wrong.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Prove it. Go ahead. Don't show me some stupid graph or long drawn out equation. Show me an avi (since demos won't play for our versions of ns) or cite atleast 2 (which I did in my previous thread) that say this regen overflow is a major unbalncing issue. Until then sit down shut up and quit crying about how everyone is out to prevent poor forlorn from being a PT. It's petty. It makes you look like a tool and by god it's friggin annoying
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->et program failed partly because server problems. Our clan played several PCW, but all were plagued by server crashes and 3000 pings..<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Those were fixed around the later half of the builds (4-5 builds before it became 3.0 I think) there was the res bug for one build. We still had a solid 3-4 weeks to playtest it but noone wanted to play NS just combat. We're all guilty of it so meh
<!--QuoteBegin-Licho+Aug 31 2004, 11:55 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Licho @ Aug 31 2004, 11:55 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Yes, 2.0x version were balanced for clan play, but remember how they were treated by NS players? There was a lot of whinning that we destroyed game, that it's not fun anymore, it's too fast, fade/onos/skulk sux etc.. "fun" which is partly based on balance is what really matters.
Also, balancing some RTS played on 1v1!! basis, is something completely different from NS.. Yes, in classical RTS, it's best to employ best players in balancing, but NS is team oriented game, there are many people on the server, and you never get elite squad vs. elite squad enviroment. It's not a RTS, it's mostly FPS! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Huh?
The reason that you can have crappy players which screws things up is precisely the reason as to why you need good players, all the time.
You can't really playtest something when trying a strategy and it's all screwed up by one bad player on the team who fails to kill a marine as they miss 5 bites in a row.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yes, 2.0x version were balanced for clan play, but remember how they were treated by NS players? There was a lot of whinning that we destroyed game, that it's not fun anymore, it's too fast, fade/onos/skulk sux etc.. "fun" which is partly based on balance is what really matters.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And just for the record, 2.01 is regarded as the most balanced... 2.01 was a product not of PT's, 2.00 was, which was horribly unbalanced. HAMBONE can be given credit for 2.01 <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes because fade rushing wasn't an issue even in 2.0x right? RIGHT? Come on forlorn even you can't be that thick headed
But why to test strategy that needs 100% from all players? It just never happens on pubs.. We sometimes try such things, to check for possible exploits, but it's not what matters that much, most testing is done to check bugs anyway...
On the other hand, if you have say ultra-elite fades in PT (and we have several such fades), they will make game looking balanced, but if we release it, we suddenly find out, that the only ultra-elite fades were probably those in PT and aliens are loosing big time in normal games :-)
It's pretty damned arrogant and ignorant to claim you need to be a good shot to balance the game. The fact that you're able to aim well in an FPS has no bearing on your intelligence or your ability to discuss balance. And just because you're able to land every bite/swipe doesn't mean you'll balance the game. It simply means you're balancing it for clan play. Hey, 2.01 anyone?
I've been biting my tongue, but I agree that the PT system is lacking and it has been for a long time. If you've played in the constellation beta, you know how it went. New build out, people play, Flayra comes in, plays a few games, new build is balanced accordingly. There was never, *never* a reliable source of statistics to help balance the game. Isn't that what betas are for? Gathering stats concerning the game? And then there were the PT leads who had no say in the new batch of PT's..
This thread somehow went from the future of NS to a spitting contest concerning playtesting, and I don't feel like continueing, have fun though.
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Aug 31 2004, 03:22 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Aug 31 2004, 03:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I like this game. It is my favorite. I just wish there were more qualified people who are "testing" it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Like me <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Actualy I am waiting for the Guide program to start again I hope it doesnt kill itself this time.
Seriously, how can you judge current PTs or work we are doing? You are not a PT, don't you? Game is tested intensively right now, we have about 3 sessions per week (depends on the speed devs prepare new builds), and build numbers are raising at steady rate.. Feedback with discussion is provided after every session, I think it works very efficiently and smoothly right now..
<!--QuoteBegin-Licho+Aug 31 2004, 06:15 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Licho @ Aug 31 2004, 06:15 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Seriously, how can you judge current PTs or work we are doing? You are not a PT, don't you? Game is tested intensively right now, we have about 3 sessions per week (depends on the speed devs prepare new builds), and build numbers are raising at steady rate.. Feedback with discussion is provided after every session, I think it works very efficiently and smoothly right now.. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Never said I could, and I sincerely hope it's going better now, I'm just saying that the reason 3.0 was messed up in a lot of ways was for that simple reason. Nothing was done reliably. And regardless, discussion does not equal statistics. I just hope things will turn out better. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-CommunistWithAGun+Aug 31 2004, 09:41 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CommunistWithAGun @ Aug 31 2004, 09:41 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> ... I should NOT be punished for 30 minutes because someone else dosen't know whats going on... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Sooooo true. From my point of view that is the main cause of stacking in NS mode, when people do play the NS mode. Combat is the mode that almost disregards teamwork, so it makes skill matter. On a teamwork-based game, this is not very good. But hell that's what people want.
NS games should really be made more fun for the losing team... Both teams should be given a chance, even if the other one is dominating. In 2.0 aliens could win by destroying the MS if the marines failed to protect it while trying to kill the hive. Now the poor base-busting onos is weaker than ever and would have to destroy an obs, a pg and pray the marines don't build another obs somewhere else. All because of beacon. In the same fashion, marines could shot rush the hive when losing. Although harder, it is still possible, unlike the onos strat.
I say give people a chance of winning if the other team does some stupid mistake, even if you have a weaker team. Or give people some fun while losing.
<!--QuoteBegin-Chem+Aug 31 2004, 11:58 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Chem @ Aug 31 2004, 11:58 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yes, 2.0x version were balanced for clan play, but remember how they were treated by NS players? There was a lot of whinning that we destroyed game, that it's not fun anymore, it's too fast, fade/onos/skulk sux etc.. "fun" which is partly based on balance is what really matters.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And just for the record, 2.01 is regarded as the most balanced... 2.01 was a product not of PT's, 2.00 was, which was horribly unbalanced. HAMBONE can be given credit for 2.01 <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes because fade rushing wasn't an issue even in 2.0x right? RIGHT? Come on forlorn even you can't be that thick headed <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> What the hell are you talking about?
Fade rushing? You still get fades, you always will get fades, they are the medium class that aliens despirately need because skulks are so weak. There is no such thing as fade rushing, fade rushing sounds as stupid as does shotgun rushing.
Fading was/is just a natural tech progression of the game.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Why would they need help? The rule of being a vet was that you scrimmed 5 times a week and you got to stay in the beta. The fact of the matter is I don't think one clanned scrimmed 5 times during the entire period. That's not their fault THAT'S YOURS, OURS EVERY SINGLE VET GET IT THROUGH YOUR HEAD<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think they did need help, because (time for management 101 class)
1. They didnt' have enough people enforcing the rules
2. Not enough people to add several hundred NS clans entered into the whole damn thing
3. And none of the vets wanted to play simply because THEY WERE NOT LISTENED TOO, THEREFORE ALL INPUT WAS USELESS
Seems pretty obvious you barely remember what happened, not only did I play combat back then but I also played classic. Classic was horribly unbalanced with the "fixed" hitboxes which meant fades were butter and so were onos. There was no point to playing that version.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Top 95%? And you commented on MY reading and writing skills in the previous thread good lord. That's pretty much everyone who's played NS for 2 weeks. And no offense but if you're a dipstick with the personallity of a spoiled brat noone will listen to your input anyway and probably just put them on ignore.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Top 95% in terms of being above the other 5%, my bad please jump on my tyop's
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I don't want to be a playtester never did. But you're probably even less qualified than I am. I'd mention why but you'd probably go crying to an admin for me flaming you but by all means come to #clan-complex so I can spell it out in crayon so you'll know why.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Internet tough guys are cool
Wither:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It's pretty damned arrogant and ignorant to claim you need to be a good shot to balance the game. The fact that you're able to aim well in an FPS has no bearing on your intelligence or your ability to discuss balance. And just because you're able to land every bite/swipe doesn't mean you'll balance the game. It simply means you're balancing it for clan play. Hey, 2.01 anyone?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's pretty damned arrogant and ignorant to claim you need to be intelligent in order to balance the game. The fact that you can think logicially has no bearing on how well you can test the capabilities the game has to offer. And just because you can argue philosophy between marx and adam smith, doesn't mean you'll balance the game. It simply means you are balancing it for no one. Hey, 1.00 anyone? (By the way, 2.01 was the most balanced version... not most fun but most balanced, the fun was in the lack of strategies such as D chambers always, marines always armor 1, etc. etc., 1.04 was ten times worst in terms of strategy)
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> What the hell are you talking about? Fade rushing? You still get fades, you always will get fades, they are the medium class that aliens despirately need because skulks are so weak. There is no such thing as fade rushing, fade rushing sounds as stupid as does shotgun rushing.
Fading was/is just a natural tech progression of the game. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes forlorn that would explain why almsot all clan matches in 2.01 were always split by both sides winning aliens and guess what home team pick what side? Oh that's right aliens. 2.01 was about the 3 minute fade and it always was. 3.0 changed that and gave the marines the autoshotty from hell to combat the 3minute fade It's a natural tech progression yes but when that was IT then maybe you need to rethink your game design.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Seems pretty obvious you barely remember what happened, not only did I play combat back then but I also played classic. Classic was horribly unbalanced with the "fixed" hitboxes which meant fades were butter and so were onos. There was no point to playing that version. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Funny how I always seemed to run into you on COMBAT servers and all the NS servers were empty. And saying you played NS when the combat servers were taken down kinda defeats the whole point of the arguement now doesn't it? The fact you had to be forced to do your job in 2.1 doesn't say much as a hopeful PT now does it Classic horribly unbalanced? Not worth playing? IT WAS THE VETS JOB TO PLAY THE UNBALANCED VERSION. But wait isn't 3.0 horribly unbalanced? Why are you still here and playing. If you didn't play it then why are you playing it now
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> 3. And none of the vets wanted to play simply because THEY WERE NOT LISTENED TOO, THEREFORE ALL INPUT WAS USELESS <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Combat isn't classic and as I recall there wasn't an abundance of balance request as the forums died down when the combat servers went down. Also when you have upwards of 500 people screaming at you about balance changes crap will fall through the cracks
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It's pretty damned arrogant and ignorant to claim you need to be intelligent in order to balance the game. The fact that you can think logicially has no bearing on how well you can test the capabilities the game has to offer. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Pointing a gun is only half the battle ace but thanks for calling yourself an idiot . And logic plays a big role in this game and the real world forlorn. Sounds like you're doomed
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> 1. They didnt' have enough people enforcing the rules
2. Not enough people to add several hundred NS clans entered into the whole damn thing <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> It also didn't help for the fact they weren't allowed to kick the vets out for not doing what they're supposed to. I think I remember 1 clan being kicked out and I'm not even sure it happened.
Infact I would go as far to say the vet program was and always will be a failure. Hell they've got the consties if they need a large group to playtest. People a varying skill. Ranging from very good to poor. But you know what they don't jump up and down screaming at the PT's calling them worthlless and that they can't do their job.
But none of this will get through that thick head of yours
I'm going to write one really long post. You're all **** for annoying me enough to do this. After my post please SUYF. It'll take a few mins.
And why can't I type SUYF damnit SUYF
-------------------- [insert my Marik]At this point I'd locked the thread. Squishy soon PM'ed me asking for his post to be put in -- it was the "really long post" he promised it to be. After going back and forth a couple times to remove certain parts that may have offended a person(s) (while still trying to maintain Squishy's wording as much as possible), I'm inserting it in here for him post-lockage-ly. Hmm...post lockagely. That's one heck of a faked adverb <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
On to Squishy's post: ------------------------ <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Instead of fixing key gameplay issues they simply add more cosmetic crap that nobody needs or even wants. A shame this used to be such a fun mod. I hope it does not make the cross to Hl2 unless things are completely redone- properly. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree but I'll get to that last.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The truth is "The community" consists of a few individuals who have real say on who gets into the program, the lead picker with 90% of the decision being Nem0.
If PT's were made through other means we'd see more (qualified) playtesters in the field. Currently they are picked on arbitrary values such as "niceness" or "coolness".<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why do we need qualified playtesters? Qualified to do what? Test all these new gameplay issues to their full efficiency? WHAT NEW GAMEPLAY ISSUES. All we have to do is test bug fixes.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->A sad but real problem. The veteran program wasn't not working, it was poor execution and PT lead's faults for being unorganized. Now without the veteran group you have unskilled, inexperienced in a clan setting, people balancing the game, I think thats a problem. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
While most pts are not the top players in the game MOST not all but most have a very good idea what they are doing which should be sufficient to test everything but clan matchs.
To test clan matchs you would need to go back to the vet program. Argue for or against that I don't care but you can hardly blame pts for not testing this aspect.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The main problem is balancing combat and clasic at the same time imo.
Combat has ripped the soul out of NS in a desprate attempt to get more people playing, which has led to the elitism within NS due to people only playing combat to get good scores. Then taking this idea into clasic has resulted in rambos and a lack of good public commanders. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
YES. If you want ns to have a shred of oppurtunity to become more popular than it is now YOU MUST UNLOCK BALANCE BETWEEN CO AND CLASSIC.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->What I am worried about is that if all the PTs stay, they are not likely to come up with any kind of radical change that would improve the game. Not because they are stupid (not necessarily anyway) but because they are more conservative (or will become). Balance is one thing, mechanics is another. Changing the health and armor values is fine and all, but quite useless if the theory behind the health and armor is wrong to start with. The last real change to mechanics was the hive-independant life forms back in 1.0x. Since then, I've only seen balance tweaks and cosmetics. Since the interest in the I&S forum was nearly nothing after 2.0 came out, I don't see the situation changing. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes. Gameplay changes are not being made. In the next version what you will see are tweaks ony current things and bug fixes unless something changes dramatically.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Good thing it's so obvious NS isn't a fun game, i mean, sometimes (read: every day) it seems like myself and loads of people who frequent the same server have great fun playing.
If you're not having fun, quit. Don't whine about it. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I still have fun playing ns but except for in matchs it has stopped being the fun of getting a good win and teamwork and turned into the haha I'm 40 and 1 and pwn u in the face kind of fun.
The game is at a wall that isn't even being poked by the devs.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I think that Flayra excepts that NS has probably peaked and is only going to decay from here... The best efforts of anyone, I don't think, could change that from happening, a combination of bugs, engine limitations and a shift in goals from the dev(s). (Mainly to get UWE famous so they can sell more copies of the next game) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This may be true with HL2 and all the other games coming out right now. Maybe if some key changes had come around in 3.0 it would've been better but I think theres still time to grow if not to become a powerhouse like cs.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->To comment the rest: PT are not supposed to suggest new ideas, we are here to test things and provide feedback. Changes and ideas are up to devs.. But some PT are still proposing crazy S&I ideas :-) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exactly. WHICH IS A PROBLEM. Gameplay needs changes. Not only for balance but to keep the game interesting and growing.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I think the main problem is there is too much teamwork and crutches in NS. Sure teamwork is awesome but there should be a limit. I should NOT be punished for 30 minutes because someone else dosen't know whats going on. Projects like Ns learn are not a solution, that only slightly remedies the symptom. I really wish I could suggest some way to fix it, other than removing heavy armor, and ALL static defenses. There needs to be a little less required teamwork also...just my thoughts <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Theres some tweaks to static defenses that could help this but without the required teamwork ns wouldn't be the game it is.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Well I appreciate how things look from the outside, what I can say is I've received over 5 emails from Flayra in the last 24 hours, and seen multiple posts from him on the development areas.
Flayra is active just not in the public eye. Of course to be fair, he doesn't need to be, he can read whichever posts he likes, gather whatever data from whatever sources he feels he needs and continue working in the background.
Flayra has outlined (internally) several large feature inducing changes for future versions, so large feature-like changes are still being worked on/talked about, just because he doesn't reply to a thread in I&S doesn't mean that he never reads it, or doesn't have his own ideas. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Great. Not only do people not know this but even for those of us who do what now?
We're supposed to be happy about big undetermined changes that will probably come in a long undetermined time?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yeah he nullified it because they didn't do their job. They played combat nonstop and had to be forced to play regular NS. And guess what happened when they shut down the combat servers? About half the vets stopped playing altogether. Forlorn is one of them as am I and about 99% of the vet community. I was up Elven Thief butt almost the entire time during the 2.1 playtest about how there's no damn point of all these vets as they're not even playing NS. I was part of the problem I admit but the vet program was a failure on the vets shoulders noone elses. We had our chance and spit on it. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The vets.... The REAL vets did not take what happened as well as they could've but opening up the vet system was EXTREMELY STUPID AND DIRECTLY INFLUENCED IT'S DEMISE.
I'd suggest making a real vet system like the original one but its to late ALMOST ALL THE GOOD CLANS HAVE LEFT. What does that tell you? These are the people who loved the game the most. Who spent the most time on it. And who didn't see the changes they needed to stay around.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> don't think any of the developers really care what "the naysayers" think because honestly if a handful of bitter people don't like your game anymore that's really their problem and they should go play something else instead <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Most of the naysayers are people who have played this game for a long time. Notice there aren't many of those people left?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->2. Playtesters should be 3 things. Very good players (they should have to be in the top 95% bracket in terms of skill), people who want the game to progress, and dedication. Nothing else should matter. Reputation, personality, and charm are irrelevent. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I like this game. It is my favorite. I just wish there were more qualified people who are "testing" it. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The people testing the game make no decisions. Look to the devs.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Why would they need help? The rule of being a vet was that you scrimmed 5 times a week and you got to stay in the beta. The fact of the matter is I don't think one clanned scrimmed 5 times during the entire period. That's not their fault THAT'S YOURS, OURS EVERY SINGLE VET GET IT THROUGH YOUR HEAD <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Already ansewered
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->1. They didnt' have enough people enforcing the rules
2. Not enough people to add several hundred NS clans entered into the whole damn thing
3. And none of the vets wanted to play simply because THEY WERE NOT LISTENED TOO, THEREFORE ALL INPUT WAS USELESS
Seems pretty obvious you barely remember what happened, not only did I play combat back then but I also played classic. Classic was horribly unbalanced with the "fixed" hitboxes which meant fades were butter and so were onos. There was no point to playing that version. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1. True 2. There were several hundred clans? My god once again why the **** did they open it up. 3. No groups input has been listened to since 1.04. They have their devs or Hambone or somebody make all the decisions and then have the group pts/vets/consties test it. Gameplay suggestions havn't been seriously looked at in a long time.
I remember hambone talking about marines being unwinninable after a 2.0 scrim... Just felt I should throw that in there
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Infact I would go as far to say the vet program was and always will be a failure. Hell they've got the consties if they need a large group to playtest. People a varying skill. Ranging from very good to poor. But you know what they don't jump up and down screaming at the PT's calling them worthlless and that they can't do their job. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem was the fact that some of the real vet clans had broken up so they were running out of people so they opened in up to idiots instead of selectively adding 10 or so clans as was originally planned.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The real problem is that all over the wrold people are sitting there, playing NS, but saying;
1. Remove pancaking. 2. Put back in 1.04 lerk flight. 3. Add 25/25 hp and armor to lerk 4. Hive cost to 45 5. Allow 2 hives to be dropped simultaneously. 6. Allow gorges to suck res from agreeable players at 70 percent efficiency. 7. Take away gorges ability to morph into any unit and have res put back into team alien res pool upon gorge death. 8. Skulks can upgrade for free. 9. Give aliens a chamber that shoots spores at marines. 10. Add a new marine building we'll call it the toy shop. 11. Have the toyshop get upgradeable things such as hand grenades, Gas masks which would cost 5 a pop . 12. Give the marines the ability to throw their knives for the exact amount of damage it would take to kill one skulk. 13. Increase Marine res node cost to 18. 14. Add a new prototype lab suit of some sort. 15. Make it take 20 seconds when using /kill no matter what so it can still be used to get unstuck but not used to escape death. 16. Add a predator type upgrade to the toyshop where marines get a little wrist band and can blow themselves up dealing the damage it takes to kill a cara skulk to a small radius. Default timer 5 seconds make it settable up to 10. 17. Make it so coms can drop meds and ammo on rines heads again 18. Make it so coms can only drop buildings in rines los 19. Remove locked co/classic balance 20. If possible allow coms to use minimap to cycle through what the marines can see using his minimap like picture in picture spec mode. 21. Toyshop could use 1 or 2 more cool little upgs to play with. 22. Weaken marine turrets and lower cost to 5 res. Make them upgradeable to alittle more powerful then original turrets for 10 more res.
Marik_SteeleTo rule in hell...Join Date: 2002-11-20Member: 9466Members
edited August 2004
<!--QuoteBegin-[SiD+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ([SiD)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Squishy,Aug 31 2004, 02:12 PM] I'm going to write one really long post. You're all **** for annoying me enough to do this. After my post please SUYF. It'll take a few mins.
And why can't I type SUYF damnit SUYF <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Squishy, don't fall to the dark side. As a fellow playtester I'm going to have to hold you back from that.
Hopefully I'll finish this lockpost before anyone else gets in with yet more inflammatory remarks towards either side of this.
[edit]Okay, I took a bit of extra time to read this thread and the last couple locked threads I've seen that contained multiple similar posts by certain members. Chem, Forlorn, I've decided that both of you need some time to cool down. Evidently you have issues you'd like to discuss with each other, and as far as I see it, that's fine. But <i>not here</i>. Last I remember, "airing dirty laundry" as we call it isn't allowed on the forums -- if you've got an issue with a member of forum staff member, you take it up with them via PM. Last I checked, the PM function is still enabled for people who are temporarily suspended. I'm giving you both 1-week temps. I think both of you know very well that it could've been worse, but if either of you think it's unfair, my PM inbox still has space for you.
Comments
Magic the Gathering
NBA, NFL etc..
Balanced by statistics on the pr0's
And untill Flayra can ever gather some real stats on things, he should only get oppinions of those who play it best. A dedicated clanner obviously knows what it's like to play in a pub game, and what it's like to play in top notch play. You don't need genius to be a game playtester. The most important thing is skill as well as appreciation for the game. Everything else would follow.
And just for the record, 2.01 is regarded as the most balanced... 2.01 was a product not of PT's, 2.00 was, which was horribly unbalanced. HAMBONE can be given credit for 2.01, and HAMBONE derrived his oppinion from top players as well as experiences from his own clan, which was #1 (most likely in the world) at the time. HAM was the first clan to emphasize good teamwork and a really good commander.
"fun" which is partly based on balance is what really matters.
Also, balancing some RTS played on 1v1!! basis, is something completely different from NS..
Yes, in classical RTS, it's best to employ best players in balancing, but NS is team oriented game, there are many people on the server, and you never get elite squad vs. elite squad enviroment. It's not a RTS, it's mostly FPS!
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> 1. HAMBONE nor Elven Theif never asked for help once. No one had a clue of how in over their heads they were. This is not my fault or yours.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why would they need help? The rule of being a vet was that you scrimmed 5 times a week and you got to stay in the beta. The fact of the matter is I don't think one clanned scrimmed 5 times during the entire period. That's not their fault THAT'S YOURS, OURS EVERY SINGLE VET GET IT THROUGH YOUR HEAD
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->2. Playtesters should be 3 things. Very good players (they should have to be in the top 95% bracket in terms of skill), people who want the game to progress, and dedication. Nothing else should matter. Reputation, personality, and charm are irrelevent.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Top 95%? And you commented on MY reading and writing skills in the previous thread good lord. That's pretty much everyone who's played NS for 2 weeks. And no offense but if you're a dipstick with the personallity of a spoiled brat noone will listen to your input anyway and probably just put them on ignore.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->3. You can't tell me not to be a playtester when in fact you do not meet the ideal playtester qualifications yourself.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't want to be a playtester never did. But you're probably even less qualified than I am. I'd mention why but you'd probably go crying to an admin for me flaming you but by all means come to #clan-complex so I can spell it out in crayon so you'll know why.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If this is what you really think, then you are wrong.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Prove it. Go ahead. Don't show me some stupid graph or long drawn out equation. Show me an avi (since demos won't play for our versions of ns) or cite atleast 2 (which I did in my previous thread) that say this regen overflow is a major unbalncing issue. Until then sit down shut up and quit crying about how everyone is out to prevent poor forlorn from being a PT. It's petty. It makes you look like a tool and by god it's friggin annoying
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->et program failed partly because server problems. Our clan played several PCW, but all were plagued by server crashes and 3000 pings..<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Those were fixed around the later half of the builds (4-5 builds before it became 3.0 I think) there was the res bug for one build. We still had a solid 3-4 weeks to playtest it but noone wanted to play NS just combat. We're all guilty of it so meh
"fun" which is partly based on balance is what really matters.
Also, balancing some RTS played on 1v1!! basis, is something completely different from NS..
Yes, in classical RTS, it's best to employ best players in balancing, but NS is team oriented game, there are many people on the server, and you never get elite squad vs. elite squad enviroment. It's not a RTS, it's mostly FPS! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Huh?
The reason that you can have crappy players which screws things up is precisely the reason as to why you need good players, all the time.
You can't really playtest something when trying a strategy and it's all screwed up by one bad player on the team who fails to kill a marine as they miss 5 bites in a row.
"fun" which is partly based on balance is what really matters.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And just for the record, 2.01 is regarded as the most balanced... 2.01 was a product not of PT's, 2.00 was, which was horribly unbalanced. HAMBONE can be given credit for 2.01 <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes because fade rushing wasn't an issue even in 2.0x right? RIGHT?
Come on forlorn even you can't be that thick headed
On the other hand, if you have say ultra-elite fades in PT (and we have several such fades), they will make game looking balanced, but if we release it, we suddenly find out, that the only ultra-elite fades were probably those in PT and aliens are loosing big time in normal games :-)
I've been biting my tongue, but I agree that the PT system is lacking and it has been for a long time. If you've played in the constellation beta, you know how it went. New build out, people play, Flayra comes in, plays a few games, new build is balanced accordingly. There was never, *never* a reliable source of statistics to help balance the game. Isn't that what betas are for? Gathering stats concerning the game? And then there were the PT leads who had no say in the new batch of PT's..
This thread somehow went from the future of NS to a spitting contest concerning playtesting, and I don't feel like continueing, have fun though.
Like me <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Actualy I am waiting for the Guide program to start again I hope it doesnt kill itself this time.
Never said I could, and I sincerely hope it's going better now, I'm just saying that the reason 3.0 was messed up in a lot of ways was for that simple reason. Nothing was done reliably. And regardless, discussion does not equal statistics. I just hope things will turn out better. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Sooooo true. From my point of view that is the main cause of stacking in NS mode, when people do play the NS mode. Combat is the mode that almost disregards teamwork, so it makes skill matter. On a teamwork-based game, this is not very good. But hell that's what people want.
NS games should really be made more fun for the losing team... Both teams should be given a chance, even if the other one is dominating. In 2.0 aliens could win by destroying the MS if the marines failed to protect it while trying to kill the hive. Now the poor base-busting onos is weaker than ever and would have to destroy an obs, a pg and pray the marines don't build another obs somewhere else. All because of beacon. In the same fashion, marines could shot rush the hive when losing. Although harder, it is still possible, unlike the onos strat.
I say give people a chance of winning if the other team does some stupid mistake, even if you have a weaker team. Or give people some fun while losing.
"fun" which is partly based on balance is what really matters.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And just for the record, 2.01 is regarded as the most balanced... 2.01 was a product not of PT's, 2.00 was, which was horribly unbalanced. HAMBONE can be given credit for 2.01 <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes because fade rushing wasn't an issue even in 2.0x right? RIGHT?
Come on forlorn even you can't be that thick headed <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What the hell are you talking about?
Fade rushing? You still get fades, you always will get fades, they are the medium class that aliens despirately need because skulks are so weak. There is no such thing as fade rushing, fade rushing sounds as stupid as does shotgun rushing.
Fading was/is just a natural tech progression of the game.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Why would they need help? The rule of being a vet was that you scrimmed 5 times a week and you got to stay in the beta. The fact of the matter is I don't think one clanned scrimmed 5 times during the entire period. That's not their fault THAT'S YOURS, OURS EVERY SINGLE VET GET IT THROUGH YOUR HEAD<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think they did need help, because (time for management 101 class)
1. They didnt' have enough people enforcing the rules
2. Not enough people to add several hundred NS clans entered into the whole damn thing
3. And none of the vets wanted to play simply because THEY WERE NOT LISTENED TOO, THEREFORE ALL INPUT WAS USELESS
Seems pretty obvious you barely remember what happened, not only did I play combat back then but I also played classic. Classic was horribly unbalanced with the "fixed" hitboxes which meant fades were butter and so were onos. There was no point to playing that version.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Top 95%? And you commented on MY reading and writing skills in the previous thread good lord. That's pretty much everyone who's played NS for 2 weeks. And no offense but if you're a dipstick with the personallity of a spoiled brat noone will listen to your input anyway and probably just put them on ignore.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Top 95% in terms of being above the other 5%, my bad please jump on my tyop's
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I don't want to be a playtester never did. But you're probably even less qualified than I am. I'd mention why but you'd probably go crying to an admin for me flaming you but by all means come to #clan-complex so I can spell it out in crayon so you'll know why.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Internet tough guys are cool
Wither:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It's pretty damned arrogant and ignorant to claim you need to be a good shot to balance the game. The fact that you're able to aim well in an FPS has no bearing on your intelligence or your ability to discuss balance. And just because you're able to land every bite/swipe doesn't mean you'll balance the game. It simply means you're balancing it for clan play. Hey, 2.01 anyone?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's pretty damned arrogant and ignorant to claim you need to be intelligent in order to balance the game. The fact that you can think logicially has no bearing on how well you can test the capabilities the game has to offer. And just because you can argue philosophy between marx and adam smith, doesn't mean you'll balance the game. It simply means you are balancing it for no one. Hey, 1.00 anyone? (By the way, 2.01 was the most balanced version... not most fun but most balanced, the fun was in the lack of strategies such as D chambers always, marines always armor 1, etc. etc., 1.04 was ten times worst in terms of strategy)
Fade rushing? You still get fades, you always will get fades, they are the medium class that aliens despirately need because skulks are so weak. There is no such thing as fade rushing, fade rushing sounds as stupid as does shotgun rushing.
Fading was/is just a natural tech progression of the game. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes forlorn that would explain why almsot all clan matches in 2.01 were always split by both sides winning aliens and guess what home team pick what side? Oh that's right aliens. 2.01 was about the 3 minute fade and it always was. 3.0 changed that and gave the marines the autoshotty from hell to combat the 3minute fade
It's a natural tech progression yes but when that was IT then maybe you need to rethink your game design.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Seems pretty obvious you barely remember what happened, not only did I play combat back then but I also played classic. Classic was horribly unbalanced with the "fixed" hitboxes which meant fades were butter and so were onos. There was no point to playing that version. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Funny how I always seemed to run into you on COMBAT servers and all the NS servers were empty. And saying you played NS when the combat servers were taken down kinda defeats the whole point of the arguement now doesn't it? The fact you had to be forced to do your job in 2.1 doesn't say much as a hopeful PT now does it
Classic horribly unbalanced? Not worth playing? IT WAS THE VETS JOB TO PLAY THE UNBALANCED VERSION. But wait isn't 3.0 horribly unbalanced? Why are you still here and playing. If you didn't play it then why are you playing it now
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> 3. And none of the vets wanted to play simply because THEY WERE NOT LISTENED TOO, THEREFORE ALL INPUT WAS USELESS <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Combat isn't classic and as I recall there wasn't an abundance of balance request as the forums died down when the combat servers went down. Also when you have upwards of 500 people screaming at you about balance changes crap will fall through the cracks
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It's pretty damned arrogant and ignorant to claim you need to be intelligent in order to balance the game. The fact that you can think logicially has no bearing on how well you can test the capabilities the game has to offer. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Pointing a gun is only half the battle ace but thanks for calling yourself an idiot . And logic plays a big role in this game and the real world forlorn. Sounds like you're doomed
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
1. They didnt' have enough people enforcing the rules
2. Not enough people to add several hundred NS clans entered into the whole damn
thing <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It also didn't help for the fact they weren't allowed to kick the vets out for not doing what they're supposed to. I think I remember 1 clan being kicked out and I'm not even sure it happened.
Infact I would go as far to say the vet program was and always will be a failure. Hell they've got the consties if they need a large group to playtest. People a varying skill. Ranging from very good to poor. But you know what they don't jump up and down screaming at the PT's calling them worthlless and that they can't do their job.
But none of this will get through that thick head of yours
And why can't I type SUYF damnit SUYF
--------------------
[insert my Marik]At this point I'd locked the thread. Squishy soon PM'ed me asking for his post to be put in -- it was the "really long post" he promised it to be. After going back and forth a couple times to remove certain parts that may have offended a person(s) (while still trying to maintain Squishy's wording as much as possible), I'm inserting it in here for him post-lockage-ly. Hmm...post lockagely. That's one heck of a faked adverb <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
On to Squishy's post:
------------------------
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Instead of fixing key gameplay issues they simply add more cosmetic crap that nobody needs or even wants. A shame this used to be such a fun mod. I hope it does not make the cross to Hl2 unless things are completely redone- properly.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree but I'll get to that last.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The truth is "The community" consists of a few individuals who have real say on who gets into the program, the lead picker with 90% of the decision being Nem0.
If PT's were made through other means we'd see more (qualified) playtesters in the field. Currently they are picked on arbitrary values such as "niceness" or "coolness".<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why do we need qualified playtesters? Qualified to do what? Test all these new gameplay issues to their full efficiency? WHAT NEW GAMEPLAY ISSUES. All we have to do is test bug fixes.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->A sad but real problem. The veteran program wasn't not working, it was poor execution and PT lead's faults for being unorganized. Now without the veteran group you have unskilled, inexperienced in a clan setting, people balancing the game, I think thats a problem.
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While most pts are not the top players in the game MOST not all but most have a very good idea what they are doing which should be sufficient to test everything but clan matchs.
To test clan matchs you would need to go back to the vet program. Argue for or against that I don't care but you can hardly blame pts for not testing this aspect.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The main problem is balancing combat and clasic at the same time imo.
Combat has ripped the soul out of NS in a desprate attempt to get more people playing, which has led to the elitism within NS due to people only playing combat to get good scores. Then taking this idea into clasic has resulted in rambos and a lack of good public commanders.
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YES. If you want ns to have a shred of oppurtunity to become more popular than it is now YOU MUST UNLOCK BALANCE BETWEEN CO AND CLASSIC.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->What I am worried about is that if all the PTs stay, they are not likely to come up with any kind of radical change that would improve the game. Not because they are stupid (not necessarily anyway) but because they are more conservative (or will become). Balance is one thing, mechanics is another. Changing the health and armor values is fine and all, but quite useless if the theory behind the health and armor is wrong to start with. The last real change to mechanics was the hive-independant life forms back in 1.0x. Since then, I've only seen balance tweaks and cosmetics. Since the interest in the I&S forum was nearly nothing after 2.0 came out, I don't see the situation changing.
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Yes. Gameplay changes are not being made. In the next version what you will see are tweaks ony current things and bug fixes unless something changes dramatically.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Good thing it's so obvious NS isn't a fun game, i mean, sometimes (read: every day) it seems like myself and loads of people who frequent the same server have great fun playing.
If you're not having fun, quit. Don't whine about it.
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I still have fun playing ns but except for in matchs it has stopped being the fun of getting a good win and teamwork and turned into the haha I'm 40 and 1 and pwn u in the face kind of fun.
The game is at a wall that isn't even being poked by the devs.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I think that Flayra excepts that NS has probably peaked and is only going to decay from here... The best efforts of anyone, I don't think, could change that from happening, a combination of bugs, engine limitations and a shift in goals from the dev(s). (Mainly to get UWE famous so they can sell more copies of the next game)
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This may be true with HL2 and all the other games coming out right now. Maybe if some key changes had come around in 3.0 it would've been better but I think theres still time to grow if not to become a powerhouse like cs.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->To comment the rest:
PT are not supposed to suggest new ideas, we are here to test things and provide feedback. Changes and ideas are up to devs.. But some PT are still proposing crazy S&I ideas :-)
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Exactly. WHICH IS A PROBLEM. Gameplay needs changes. Not only for balance but to keep the game interesting and growing.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I think the main problem is there is too much teamwork and crutches in NS. Sure teamwork is awesome but there should be a limit. I should NOT be punished for 30 minutes because someone else dosen't know whats going on. Projects like Ns learn are not a solution, that only slightly remedies the symptom. I really wish I could suggest some way to fix it, other than removing heavy armor, and ALL static defenses. There needs to be a little less required teamwork also...just my thoughts
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Theres some tweaks to static defenses that could help this but without the required teamwork ns wouldn't be the game it is.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Well I appreciate how things look from the outside, what I can say is I've received over 5 emails from Flayra in the last 24 hours, and seen multiple posts from him on the development areas.
Flayra is active just not in the public eye. Of course to be fair, he doesn't need to be, he can read whichever posts he likes, gather whatever data from whatever sources he feels he needs and continue working in the background.
Flayra has outlined (internally) several large feature inducing changes for future versions, so large feature-like changes are still being worked on/talked about, just because he doesn't reply to a thread in I&S doesn't mean that he never reads it, or doesn't have his own ideas.
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Great. Not only do people not know this but even for those of us who do what now?
We're supposed to be happy about big undetermined changes that will probably come in a long undetermined time?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yeah he nullified it because they didn't do their job. They played combat nonstop and had to be forced to play regular NS. And guess what happened when they shut down the combat servers? About half the vets stopped playing altogether. Forlorn is one of them as am I and about 99% of the vet community. I was up Elven Thief butt almost the entire time during the 2.1 playtest about how there's no damn point of all these vets as they're not even playing NS. I was part of the problem I admit but the vet program was a failure on the vets shoulders noone elses. We had our chance and spit on it.
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The vets.... The REAL vets did not take what happened as well as they could've but opening up the vet system was EXTREMELY STUPID AND DIRECTLY INFLUENCED IT'S DEMISE.
I'd suggest making a real vet system like the original one but its to late ALMOST ALL THE GOOD CLANS HAVE LEFT. What does that tell you? These are the people who loved the game the most. Who spent the most time on it. And who didn't see the changes they needed to stay around.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> don't think any of the developers really care what "the naysayers" think because honestly if a handful of bitter people don't like your game anymore that's really their problem and they should go play something else instead
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Most of the naysayers are people who have played this game for a long time. Notice there aren't many of those people left?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->2. Playtesters should be 3 things. Very good players (they should have to be in the top 95% bracket in terms of skill), people who want the game to progress, and dedication. Nothing else should matter. Reputation, personality, and charm are irrelevent.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I like this game. It is my favorite. I just wish there were more qualified people who are "testing" it.
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The people testing the game make no decisions. Look to the devs.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Why would they need help? The rule of being a vet was that you scrimmed 5 times a week and you got to stay in the beta. The fact of the matter is I don't think one clanned scrimmed 5 times during the entire period. That's not their fault THAT'S YOURS, OURS EVERY SINGLE VET GET IT THROUGH YOUR HEAD
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Already ansewered
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->1. They didnt' have enough people enforcing the rules
2. Not enough people to add several hundred NS clans entered into the whole damn thing
3. And none of the vets wanted to play simply because THEY WERE NOT LISTENED TOO, THEREFORE ALL INPUT WAS USELESS
Seems pretty obvious you barely remember what happened, not only did I play combat back then but I also played classic. Classic was horribly unbalanced with the "fixed" hitboxes which meant fades were butter and so were onos. There was no point to playing that version.
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1. True
2. There were several hundred clans? My god once again why the **** did they open it up.
3. No groups input has been listened to since 1.04. They have their devs or Hambone or somebody make all the decisions and then have the group pts/vets/consties test it. Gameplay suggestions havn't been seriously looked at in a long time.
I remember hambone talking about marines being unwinninable after a 2.0 scrim... Just felt I should throw that in there
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Infact I would go as far to say the vet program was and always will be a failure. Hell they've got the consties if they need a large group to playtest. People a varying skill. Ranging from very good to poor. But you know what they don't jump up and down screaming at the PT's calling them worthlless and that they can't do their job.
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The problem was the fact that some of the real vet clans had broken up so they were running out of people so they opened in up to idiots instead of selectively adding 10 or so clans as was originally planned.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
The real problem is that all over the wrold people are sitting there, playing NS, but saying;
"I could ballance this better myself."
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1. Remove pancaking.
2. Put back in 1.04 lerk flight.
3. Add 25/25 hp and armor to lerk
4. Hive cost to 45
5. Allow 2 hives to be dropped simultaneously.
6. Allow gorges to suck res from agreeable players at 70 percent efficiency.
7. Take away gorges ability to morph into any unit and have res put back into team alien res pool upon gorge death.
8. Skulks can upgrade for free.
9. Give aliens a chamber that shoots spores at marines.
10. Add a new marine building we'll call it the toy shop.
11. Have the toyshop get upgradeable things such as hand grenades, Gas masks which would cost 5 a pop .
12. Give the marines the ability to throw their knives for the exact amount of damage it would take to kill one skulk.
13. Increase Marine res node cost to 18.
14. Add a new prototype lab suit of some sort.
15. Make it take 20 seconds when using /kill no matter what so it can still be used to get unstuck but not used to escape death.
16. Add a predator type upgrade to the toyshop where marines get a little wrist band and can blow themselves up dealing the damage it takes to kill a cara skulk to a small radius. Default timer 5 seconds make it settable up to 10.
17. Make it so coms can drop meds and ammo on rines heads again
18. Make it so coms can only drop buildings in rines los
19. Remove locked co/classic balance
20. If possible allow coms to use minimap to cycle through what the marines can see using his minimap like picture in picture spec mode.
21. Toyshop could use 1 or 2 more cool little upgs to play with.
22. Weaken marine turrets and lower cost to 5 res. Make them upgradeable to alittle more powerful then original turrets for 10 more res.
And why can't I type SUYF damnit SUYF <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Squishy, don't fall to the dark side. As a fellow playtester I'm going to have to hold you back from that.
Hopefully I'll finish this lockpost before anyone else gets in with yet more inflammatory remarks towards either side of this.
[edit]Okay, I took a bit of extra time to read this thread and the last couple locked threads I've seen that contained multiple similar posts by certain members. Chem, Forlorn, I've decided that both of you need some time to cool down. Evidently you have issues you'd like to discuss with each other, and as far as I see it, that's fine. But <i>not here</i>. Last I remember, "airing dirty laundry" as we call it isn't allowed on the forums -- if you've got an issue with a member of forum staff member, you take it up with them via PM. Last I checked, the PM function is still enabled for people who are temporarily suspended.
I'm giving you both 1-week temps. I think both of you know very well that it could've been worse, but if either of you think it's unfair, my PM inbox still has space for you.