It doesn't matter too much if they know you're there- you've got the objective of closeing the distance, and by them rounding the corner, they do it for you.
<!--QuoteBegin-Recoup+Sep 14 2004, 07:08 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Recoup @ Sep 14 2004, 07:08 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Here you are sirs. Keep in mind that all the spots are not directly kepts on-the-ground. Some can be in the ceilings, but, you must know how effective something as simple as hiding around a corner can be. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> So, how do I go about ambushing the marines if they are already there? That is the point I was trying to make. Maybe I can ambush the FIRST one, but after the following marines kill me, I can't do it again if they are sitting there camping.
I am not saying it's impossible to ambush a marine and get a kill, I do it a lot, but you can't ambush a marine that is staring at you down a long hallway with his friends.
A 1:1 ratio is not bad at all. You have just set the marines back one unit and a place in the respawn que, and if they are HMG or Shotgun carriers, then so much the better! As a skulk, you dont have the potential of a Fade or Onos. You have the potential as the one who breaks down their units bit by bit. Sometimes you can make a kill and get away in time. You arent supposed to kill legions of units as a skulk, just at LEAST manage one kill. I can often get two down before I get killed, but sometimes its just one.
Being the Khaara is like school sometimes, repetitive, redunant, and frustrating. The three Rs that should never explain your gaming ways.
The marines can do anything they want, the Khaara are forced in the same strategy over, over, and over again.
Imagine the day when the Khaara actually are fun to play as a skulk instead of desperately trying to get to that fade or lerk, give the skulk something that keeps a few players to like it in NS, not Combat, NS.
The skulk is a burrowed zergling basically, who honestly wants to play a weak, crappy, low HP unit that has to hide and still only have a half a chance with a lone rambo, and if there two, no real chance at all?
If the skulk wasn't so unpowered then the fade wouldn't be so necessary, in pubs and clan play, nerf the fade, just make the skulk something you may actually like playing, notice its not balance, just make the skulk fun for a change instead of a zerg unit, thats what people truely want, balance can come next if its to big of a deal.
I still feel people like recoup here are missing the real game aspect. If you (as marineanimal says) do even manage a succesful ambush, you do generally die. 1:1 isn't great when the second marine is now in a spot from which he can no longer be flushed out from with any ease, with team mates no doubt backing him up sooner than later.
I'd love to believe it's all as easy as you say it is guys, but in real game terms I see more games than I don't where marines manage to take one of the many routes that can get them into a spot that they can't be flushed from, and in groups are impossible to take down significantly even through ambush. They get to the spot, they build their stuff, skulks have no chance of defending against it and with RFK they're actually better off just waiting in the hive and hoping the marines leave any action until someone can get fade.
On paper what you're saying is wonderful, it just doesn't transpose into game terms so well.
<!--QuoteBegin-niaccurshi+Sep 14 2004, 08:26 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (niaccurshi @ Sep 14 2004, 08:26 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I still feel people like recoup here are missing the real game aspect. If you (as marineanimal says) do even manage a succesful ambush, you do generally die. 1:1 isn't great when the second marine is now in a spot from which he can no longer be flushed out from with any ease, with team mates no doubt backing him up sooner than later.
I'd love to believe it's all as easy as you say it is guys, but in real game terms I see more games than I don't where marines manage to take one of the many routes that can get them into a spot that they can't be flushed from, and in groups are impossible to take down significantly even through ambush. They get to the spot, they build their stuff, skulks have no chance of defending against it and with RFK they're actually better off just waiting in the hive and hoping the marines leave any action until someone can get fade.
On paper what you're saying is wonderful, it just doesn't transpose into game terms so well. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Exactly.
Recoup, you keep saying people are missing what you're saying... we're not. We understand that ambushing is more effective than rushing marines headlong. Ok? GIVEN. But that is only ONE role that the skulk must fill until fades arrive.
Sure. If all goes well, and your team is communicating (and since we seem to be talking about pubs, that can be asking for a lot, but ok, it happens), you're keeping track of marines that leave MS, skulks move to intercept, ambushes are laid, baits dangled, marines are picked off one by one.
But that doesn't always happen. And if it does, sooner or later, you miss some. Hell, becuase of PG, all it takes is one, especially when something is going on elsewhere on the map.
Suddenly, even in your perfect game, something goes wrong, the marines get a leg up on you, now they're somewhere they shouldn't be and you need to get them out.
What do you do? You can't ambush them, they're in a spot that you can't ambush. They're taking down your rt. If PG's are in play, maybe they're setting up a turret farm / siege station. Don't say get there before they did, because this time, despite your best efforts, you didn't.
What do you do?
You send in fades. Only, this can happen any time, including when you don't have fades. Especially in games of more than 7v7, those marines are freeking everywhere from 00:05 til whenever, and fades take longer to get. Your rts are dropping, you can either let them drop or you can try to stop them. And THAT means you need to assault, not ambush. And you're screwed because unless you can get everyone there, almost instantly, and you've got some leet bunnyhopping skulks, and/or the marines actually can't hit skulks that are climbing the walls (most can you know). Realistically, that's not going to happen, especially for the earliest events, 2-3 marines killing an rt. You're going to get anywhere from 2 skulk attacks before the rt goes down to maybe a dozen, tops. And chances are, those skulks are going to get owned because vanilla skulks are like paper.
THAT's what everyone else is talking about. No one is saying "help us Recoup, we don't know how to ambush". They're saying, "when skulks are forced to assault they are so weak that they fail utterly most of the time". And they're not saying "all skulks should do is assault", they're saying "sometimes they are forced to assault despite their best efforts to avoid that neccessity".
I'm not an amazing skulk, but I'm not bad either. I can bunnyhop at blinding speed, so sometimes I try to use that keep pressure on, counting on taking lone marines or small groups by suprise. By getting kills far from base, soon after spawning, I'm helping to keep safety zones around our hives, and earning RFK. If determine that a marine is coming in my direction and hasn't heard me yet, I'll try for an ambush. If my rushing isn't yeilding any results, I'll slow down and parasite and ambush more (although if the former method works, it gets much better results than ambushing... you'll have to trust me on that one though I guess). When I ambush, sometimes I get a kill, sometimes 2 or more. Sometimes I'm dead before I hit the floor. All of these things have their place. Whatever is working.
But sooner or later, usually sooner, marines get inside our territory and oh oh, they're killing an rt. Now I'm stuck rushing them. Really, I don't have any choice. And 9 times out 10, I die. So does everyone else. And then it happens somewhere else. Maybe 4 people show up to try and stop them. They all die. Now there's a long wait to respawn. Now the marines have momentum. They're all over our territory and we're rushing around, trying to put out fires. They're locking down a hive. They're killing more rts. They're building turret farms. They're chasing gorges. They're spawn killing in the hive. No amount of ambushing helps now, all we can do is rush to try and save what little we have left.
Does this happen every game? No, it doesn't. But it happens a lot. And it's no one's fault, it's not because no one knew how to ambush, it happens to even the best teams of aliens when facing almost any marine squad with more than 50% capable marines, with an even decent commander, especially in games of more than 7 vs 7. And because it happens ALL THE TIME, despite GOOD PLAYERS using ALL THE SKULK TECHNIQUES AVAILABLE TO THEM, INCLUDING AMBUSHING, and because these good players are largely powerless to stop the slide without fades, people tend to think that the skulk could use a wee bit of buffing. For those times when ambushing won't help. Which is, in fact, a lot of the time.
And I also agree it was a good post. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
On the concept though, if the attack is really as bad as you make it sound, then dont rush by yourself. Even a group of two skulks have the potential to be lethal, since one can either act as a target marker, or they can both do twice the damage and cause twice the hazard. Once a skulk gets into a group of marines (three or so) their chances of killing you have dropped drastically. You have closed the distance, and now you have to take them out with a few bites.
If there are two or three taking out an RT, and you are forced to rush by yourself, and they eventually get a PG and TF up, its not your fault at all, nor the unit's HP. If it was really just you attacking, then your team was not working together and therfor did nothing to assist you or prevent the forward base's deployment. If you can say "I want two more players waiting outside their point" then you can easily overtake them when two players come into view. If the entire team is rushing your position, its a guarenteed success rate, since I've had teams of heavies with HMG's go down to probably 4 skulks who kept up the pace and would NOT sit still.
You are worried about just 10 or 20 more hitpoints, get Carpace. A skulk doesnt really have any use for Regeneration or Redemption, so get Carpace. Its not a guarenteed uber-bullet stopper, but it will help you. Ive come out of a fight with armor dangling off my counter because I had gotten carpace. It helps more than you think, and I guess if you wanted to add more health, you would have to have a skulk around 80 health and 40 or 50 armor, and with a carpace boost that makes it 80 health and 70 armor. Thats actually a lot of hit points for a small, level 1, weak unit.
As I said, if you can work together, you are almost guarenteed victory unless their team can communicate and work together BETTER than you. A Fade and his group of 2 skulks is a deadly thrio that takes a while to whittle down, since a marine will usually aim for the Fade while the skulks come in from the flanks and rear and take him out. Skulks dont assault alone, they assault as a team. If you assault alone, use leap. If you aint got leap, bunny hop. I know it wont keep you alive, but you jack down his accuracy at LEAST. If you die, your team should already have been alerted of the marines attacking and been in the area.
One use I havent mentioned about the skulk is your spy/observer. He can sit in the dark corner with parasite out and monitor enemy troop movements. It proves almost invaluable with cloaking as well. You can sit virtually anywhere with cloak and monitor the enemy moving and possibly parasite the entire team before they spot you. If the hitpoints are too low for you, go Lerk. Its a mere 5 res from your starting res. If you died, well, tough. Stick it out the rest of the game.
Also, alien tactics are not confined to the same thing over and over again. In fact, once you have learned all the strategies of the game, they level out quite equally. Im always seeing new ideas for chamber placement put into effect on the server I play on, as well as many experienced players who, as aliens, generally win. I saw a really neat setup the other day in fact.
A gorge had set up the wall that would NOT come down. He had 2 OC's in the front, two DC's in the back, one OC on top of the two DC's, a movement in the rear and a sensory behind some crates. The marines battered themselves against this wall over and over again, but the movement allowed the gorge to heal fast, the sensory kept the un-used chambers invisible, and the DC's healed while the OC's kept the marines in check. You dont need a WoL the since of Montana. You just need tactics.
Skulks, for one thing, take some time to get used to, and I admit, if you start off with one, you feel weak, yes. So, generally, when you start you ambush, and as you get more experienced you begin to develop new ideas. The skulks primary and uber-ability is its ability to walk on the WALLS, as well as move as fast as the bullets fom your LMG. Its a light, recon, almost support unit with limited offensive capabilities. However, 9/10 times, the alien will be able to dismember marines teams instead of a lone marines killing a team of skulks. It just works that way. Marines clutter each other and are prone to easy two bites, and for marines, its all about how big your ammo counter is. Once it reaches 0 and you are still being attacked, its over for you.
In short: Skulks CAN be used as an effective assault unit if you use them correctly. Yes, it takes time to learn, but in the end, a Lerk is only a short res-stretch away, and if you walk as a skulk, they cant hear you. If a marine is knifing your RT, run the long distance, and walk the short one. If he is just around the corner, walk towards him so he doesnt hear you. You have just caught him completely off guard and you are almost guarenteed a kill since he has to whip out his LMG/Shotgun/HMG/GL in order to get YOU first. However, you have made the first strike, and therfor and sealed his fate.
I would agree with you recoup, if I were not seeing teams with people I really respect as quality public players (and good clan players in their own right) trying exactly what you're saying and fail, despite communication.
Working as a team and communication as aliens are nullified by one thing on the marine side...their ability to aim. A marine team recently decimated a very organised team rush by us skulks, to stop them relocating to a double res point. How? The game was only new, they didn't have anything special, but there were three of them working as a team. However, coming down the coridoor their were 6 of us skulks, dispersing and going after the targets.
No marines died, all six skulks did. Perhaps the skulks weren't skilled enough, I was the last of the pack and I was shot down just before I got in munching range, but I have to ask...why should three marines be able to do that? Why should they be able to stand at a point they can't be ambushed from, waiting for the CC to be dropped, and destroy a whole team in the space of a few seconds trying to stop them?
This isn't a freak case, in different scenario's this happens every game, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. The shotgun rush is a gamble that the comm makes without knowing how good his team are at shooting a shotgun or indeed aiming. It is not, however, their communication or teamwork that wni the shotgun rush, it is just the fact marines can aim, one shot, one kill per alien. They get in that hive and suddenly it's bye bye game, hello boredom. Sometimes of course, they are stupid, don't target the aliens in favour of the hive, or just plain can't shoot.
This doesn't stop it happening every game, with skilled and unskilled skulks. I've seen very unskilled alien teams win against marines thanks to the marines not being able to shoot properly. Funnily enough these games tend to be carried by the comm, and tend to be close and go on for a while...like back in the day where marines couldn't shoot the new type of creature they were playing against any more than the newbies (as we all were) could control a skulk properly...and the same result was given.
If you work together you have a chance, but one marine right now is better than two skulks for all of the game if he has the ability to aim, and when it comes down to stopping that marine and his mates building a siege base, you can have as much teamwork as you like, because as long as those marines have at least half as many as who's attacking them, they'll all survive. All it takes is for one to survive to make the rush against them useless, thanks to the spawning for the aliens, and the ease of getting back to that spot for marines via PG's.
Put in RFK on the situation, where aliens MUST attack, in character some would say, constantly, sending wave after wave in to defeat the threat...as a swarm, and reward the marines for that behaviour...it defies all logic in my book. It's so simply wrong that this should happen that it's no surprise that people find the game unbalanced. It's like giving aliens res for marines killing them at long range...absolutely arse-backwards.
<!--QuoteBegin-Rapier7+Sep 15 2004, 08:36 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Rapier7 @ Sep 15 2004, 08:36 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Did you actually read T. Ali's post?
No, it seems you did not. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Have you stopped being an a** for every post I put up?
No, it seems you did not.
Yes, I know that if the marines ARE working together, they can be a force to be reckoned with. But, in the same cases I've had my groups of six marines fall to only two well-placed Skulks. Its a sad prospect and I normally yell at them fiercely for being so incompetent, but in the case its the fact that the skulks did their job and they did it well. If the marines have a spot outside your hive that is PG up and you are unable to kill them 5 minutes into the game, then you deserve to die. Early PG rushes are so easy to beat that its humiliating.
But no, 3 teams of marines do NOT line up in every game and camp in the middle of the room and take out six skulks. My question is, why did you run in before waiting for the CC to be dropped? By then you would have bought yourself a few seconds to get inside and wipe out the guards and then attack the one building. Six skulks... you should have dominated! They must have been bad players because when I have seen six skulks go up against 3 vanilla marines, they always lost. Always. If the aliens ever outnumbered you in skulks by twice the number, you always died. Im serious. In my history of playing NS I have never seen that kind of a scenario.
But, as we all know, not every player is going to have really good aiming. Once a skulk gets in close he bunny-hops and shoots blindly around him unless he can keep his concentration. But yes, I have also played with very respectable players as well, some with massive K:D ratios that I wont ever have any hope of getting, and when they join Marines they suck horribly, but all in all, skulks CAN be base-breakers because simply the damage they do per bite is large, and a rush of skulks in an early, empty marines base is more lethal that a marine rush into an early alien hive.
One thing that sets apart spawning as a marine instead of an alien is that when you spawn as a marine, the aliens know WHERE you will spawn, but as an alien, your spawn location is randomized through the entire hive-area, meaning you could pop out on top of the guy's head and he wouldnt even know it. Easy: two skulks camp the IP's while the rest munch on the base. Its lame, but it works.
All in all, I have never, ever seen any reason for skulks to get a beefing whatsoever, and have never seen anyone complain on a server saying "Skulks are too weak!" Ever. This is the first time I have gotten to argue in the defense that it needs to stay as it is, because, well, it just does.
While I haven't been posting in this thread, i've somewhat read certain posts, and Recoup, your little ambushing scenario's might be great on the public servers, and trust me, I always have my minimap up while looking at the kill notices to see which marine is probably going to go where next etc, and yes I kill that same marine because I tap my forward key to silently "semi-run" (no idea what the term is called otherwise), up to the ambush spot on the route that marine is probably going to, so yes, technically, you could say you are correct.
But.
The number of players who actually skulk like you and me is so ridiculously low, you're basically telling 90% of the NS community to get more skill. It wont work that way. Give the people with less understanding of the game a small hp boost, so there is actually room for error, which might make being skulk a less frustrating experience for new players. They do need more skill, perhaps, but the skill you want them to have involves months, maybe years for people who're slow to catch on to things. There either needs to be a decent tutorial which explains ambushing, or a small hp boost for skulks to compensate for the general 'lack of skill'.
Exactly. This is a reason I dont rush out at oncoming trains of marines, because I know I would die even if I did the best skulk manuevers available. That is why I sit and wait for the lot of them to come through and I make the dropdown on them. I usually get a decent kill set before going down.
I know n00bs are not as good at it as you might think, but you learn with time. 90% of the community is not innepts to fighting as a skulk. Its actually probably around 65% of the community being new to the game, and then becoming veterans with age. It took me 3 months to get the complete hang of aliens and how they functioned and their tactics. So, give the n00bs some time and they will learn. We cannot hold your hand every time and give you a huge HP boost and say "there, go have fun now!" you have to deal with what you have.
I am IN a massive clan and they ALL agree Skulks do NOT need a boost. I can get wake_jumper, (as his screen name describes) borninshadow (Clayton Everton), HKStall (Stall) as well as several others to come in and say "They dont need a boost, leave it as it is!"
If you are so worried about jacking them up by a few hitpoints, get Carapace!
Edge, Sabre Wolf, Shinra Zero, Pumpinator, and Scrappy are all in charge basically. Edge is the most razor refined leading admin. Yoshi is just crazy... <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Missing the point time and time again aren't you Recoup?
*IF* the skulks are in a position to ambush, it works; but skulks can't be in positions to get into an ambush position for every point of contestation, and get res, and stop hive lockdowns, all at the same time! This is why more often than not marines manage to get past any skulk defenses that aren't there because the skulks HAVE to do something like get res because the time limit is too short to allow for fannying about.
And in that situation there is no ambush available...and that situation happens a lot...so no ambushes on the Shotgun rushers, or siege rushers happens a lot!
<span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>Lets see if size gets this through to you...ambushing rarely happens because marines being able to get in to one of several unflushable siege/PG spots is too easy given the needs of the skulks to do other things than just hang around and scout around.</span>
As I said, on paper what you say is perfectly true...but in game it certainly is not. Read T.Ali's post properly.
oh, and your example of a couple of skulks wiping out 6 marines? Either they couldn't aim for ****, or they were generally all round poor. Personally, on the servers I've been on, the marines don't tend to be idiots, and thus I've never seen big groups of marines taken out by less skulks.
You can get on the On|E server and realize the marines are very good players, but in a cluttered bunch of marines, a skulk that gets in the mix CAN do some damage.
If the marines get in a spot that they can easily camp, IE a long hallway with Phase Gates and TF, then dont bring in a set of skulks, Bring in some Fades. By the time they have Phase Tech and a Turret Farm around, you should have or be close to having Fades in the game. Skulks are not meant for every task in the game, though they CAN be used effectively for others. A camped marine position is not set up for skulks, although it is possible to take it out. You wont be as effective, but you can do it. If you have 7 skulks moving into a LMG marine position, you can very well take it apart, hallway or not.
However, we are only looking at this through the "What if" scenario. Well, what if a set of skulks rushed the marine base while the enemy camped? What if you took out resources nodes by yourself while your team kept the enemy pinned down? What if someone went Fade? What if you have a second hive and could bile bomb their position from a vent, ledge, or strafe from behind a wall and into open to do a quick bile and back out again? What if you have 3 hives and could use Xeno? Leap? Acid rocket with a Fade? Charge in with Onos ability if you have enough res nodes or hives? Spam OC's at their position and then move in? Gas them out with lerk? Fly in for a quick focus bite and then out again? I can come up with dozens of "What if..." scenarios on paper, but frankly it wouldnt help.
Skulks, when en mass, can do damage. A troupe of 5 skulks can skillfully dismantle a PG/TF if they work together. If you rush in single file, your odds of survival are limited. I know that there are times you NEED to attack. I understand. But, you cannot expect a skulk to attack WELL and do a massive amount of damage with their attack. They are level 1, weak-unit lifeforms that ARE built for ambush. You CAN use them for assaults, but its just not the best course of action.
<!--QuoteBegin-Recoup+Sep 17 2004, 03:27 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Recoup @ Sep 17 2004, 03:27 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If the marines get in a spot that they can easily camp, IE a long hallway with Phase Gates and TF, then dont bring in a set of skulks, Bring in some Fades. By the time they have Phase Tech and a Turret Farm around, you should have or be close to having Fades in the game. Skulks are not meant for every task in the game, though they CAN be used effectively for others. A camped marine position is not set up for skulks, although it is possible to take it out. You wont be as effective, but you can do it. If you have 7 skulks moving into a LMG marine position, you can very well take it apart, hallway or not. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> 7 skulks moving in on 3 or 4 entrenched marines, not even considering turrets, will get mashed up by any competant marine side. And if your team is dying over and over (and hence not getting res, and probably losing res too) then how are they meant to do anything and/or have any fun as aliens while they wait for someone to go Fade?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->However, we are only looking at this through the "What if" scenario. Well, what if a set of skulks rushed the marine base while the enemy camped? What if you took out resources nodes by yourself while your team kept the enemy pinned down?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, *if* a set of skulks are co-ordinated enough to attack the marine base, and the comm was stupid enough not to leave a marine near by...it all lends a lot of assumption though to enough skulks being out, and communicating...and not getting killed. Because as soon as they're dead, they're in the endless cycle of waiting/dying to the campers.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->What if you have a second hive and could bile bomb their position from a vent, ledge, or strafe from behind a wall and into open to do a quick bile and back out again? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You like your paper based scenario's don't you?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->What if you have 3 hives and could use Xeno? Leap? Acid rocket with a Fade? Charge in with Onos ability if you have enough res nodes or hives?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Have you not noticed we're not talking about the three hvie stage, but the 1 hive stage within the first 10 minutes of the game.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I can come up with dozens of "What if..." scenarios on paper, but frankly it wouldnt help.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First sensible thing you've said.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Skulks, when en mass, can do damage. A troupe of 5 skulks can skillfully dismantle a PG/TF if they work together. If you rush in single file, your odds of survival are limited. I know that there are times you NEED to attack. I understand. But, you cannot expect a skulk to attack WELL and do a massive amount of damage with their attack. They are level 1, weak-unit lifeforms that ARE built for ambush. You CAN use them for assaults, but its just not the best course of action.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well then something needs to be sorted out in the game then doesn't it, because in a majority of the games skulks are forced in to assault mode for most of the map. If they're not built for it, then why are they the only thing available during the time when they're most needed? And you only need 3 skulks to dismantle a PG/TF, but getting them close enough is another matter entirely.
Well you continue to mention "A skilled marine team..." well not EVERY team of marines is going to have 100% accurate aim and BE skilled. If that 4 teams of marines focuses on one skulk each, then you still have another 3 coming at them assuming they killed the 4 skulks with their aim. You know, you havent mentioned anything about skilled ALIEN players, just skilled MARINE players. Well yeah, you have skilled marine players, but you have even better skilled alien players. A guy named Jade who came onto our server and dismantled entire teams of marines by himself as a skulk, and we are talking about him going up against Goldenforce, Smiley, Stall, very good players.
I am presenting "What if" scenarios since you ALSO throw in "What if" scenarios. They CAN camp a spot in a hallway, but a large group of skulks almost always succeed in a swarm attack unless the ENTIRE marine team is in the hallway, all firing away at the same time with the same 100% accuracy that you seem to favor in a lot of cases. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Skulks are not forced into assault mode until 7 to 10 minutes into the game. Hell, you can camp the marines for the full 10 minutes, and by a very short time you should already have Fades on the offensive by then. Bothersome skulks who keep me from getting res because they have the areas locked down on the roof, walls, and behind crates, really drive me crazy, especially if the players are good. 4 skulks can stop the marine team from progressing very quickly by themselves through constant harassment. It works, trust me.
<!--QuoteBegin-Recoup+Sep 17 2004, 03:44 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Recoup @ Sep 17 2004, 03:44 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Well you continue to mention "A skilled marine team..." well not EVERY team of marines is going to have 100% accurate aim and BE skilled. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> No I don't, I do believe I make it very clear that I'm talking about marines that may be completely unskilled as marines, but can aim. If you honestly believe a significant number of marine players can't aim enough to take out a skulk coming down a coridoor, or is part of a group of 6 people and can't track and take down a skulk or two that is attacking them...then I am completely bemused at what type of server you're playing on.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If that 4 teams of marines focuses on one skulk each, then you still have another 3 coming at them assuming they killed the 4 skulks with their aim. You know, you havent mentioned anything about skilled ALIEN players, just skilled MARINE players. Well yeah, you have skilled marine players, but you have even better skilled alien players. A guy named Jade who came onto our server and dismantled entire teams of marines by himself as a skulk, and we are talking about him going up against Goldenforce, Smiley, Stall, very good players.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again, as Buggy said, this type of player is the vast minority. Same as the number of marines that can't aim. If 4 marines target one skulk each, by the way, they kill 4 skulks with half a coridoor still to go, then kill the final three before they reach.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I am presenting "What if" scenarios since you ALSO throw in "What if" scenarios. They CAN camp a spot in a hallway, but a large group of skulks almost always succeed in a swarm attack unless the ENTIRE marine team is in the hallway, all firing away at the same time with the same 100% accuracy that you seem to favor in a lot of cases. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not presenting what if scenario's, I'm talking about what happens in game, what has happened in game and what will happen in game if nothing changes.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Skulks are not forced into assault mode until 7 to 10 minutes into the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Bollocks, pure and simple.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Hell, you can camp the marines for the full 10 minutes, and by a very short time you should already have Fades on the offensive by then. Bothersome skulks who keep me from getting res because they have the areas locked down on the roof, walls, and behind crates, really drive me crazy, especially if the players are good. 4 skulks can stop the marine team from progressing very quickly by themselves through constant harassment. It works, trust me.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'll trust my own experiences, and the experiences I'm overwhelmingly hearing that tend to point towards what I'm saying being the norm.
So basically you are saying that when you play your games, Marines almost <i>always</i> win and skulks have almost no kills and a whole lot of deaths, and are completely useless in game. Is this what you are trying to point out? Because so far from your "experience" it seems you need to play on other servers.
However, I never said a large majority of marines cant aim, although it sometimes feels like it when my marine wastes a clip of an LMG attacking an alien coming down the hall, and misses.
Edge, Sabre Wolf, Shinra Zero, Pumpinator, and Scrappy are all in charge basically. Edge is the most razor refined leading admin. Yoshi is just crazy... <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Meh, it says you aren't allowed to bunnyhop there. No thanks <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
It's not what I'm saying at all. I'm just saying that more games than not, you get situations that aliens can't get out of until the fades roll in, and that's stupid. considering this stuff happens when you can't get fades
Comments
So, how do I go about ambushing the marines if they are already there? That is the point I was trying to make. Maybe I can ambush the FIRST one, but after the following marines kill me, I can't do it again if they are sitting there camping.
I am not saying it's impossible to ambush a marine and get a kill, I do it a lot, but you can't ambush a marine that is staring at you down a long hallway with his friends.
The marines can do anything they want, the Khaara are forced in the same strategy over, over, and over again.
Imagine the day when the Khaara actually are fun to play as a skulk instead of desperately trying to get to that fade or lerk, give the skulk something that keeps a few players to like it in NS, not Combat, NS.
The skulk is a burrowed zergling basically, who honestly wants to play a weak, crappy, low HP unit that has to hide and still only have a half a chance with a lone rambo, and if there two, no real chance at all?
If the skulk wasn't so unpowered then the fade wouldn't be so necessary, in pubs and clan play, nerf the fade, just make the skulk something you may actually like playing, notice its not balance, just make the skulk fun for a change instead of a zerg unit, thats what people truely want, balance can come next if its to big of a deal.
I'd love to believe it's all as easy as you say it is guys, but in real game terms I see more games than I don't where marines manage to take one of the many routes that can get them into a spot that they can't be flushed from, and in groups are impossible to take down significantly even through ambush. They get to the spot, they build their stuff, skulks have no chance of defending against it and with RFK they're actually better off just waiting in the hive and hoping the marines leave any action until someone can get fade.
On paper what you're saying is wonderful, it just doesn't transpose into game terms so well.
I'd love to believe it's all as easy as you say it is guys, but in real game terms I see more games than I don't where marines manage to take one of the many routes that can get them into a spot that they can't be flushed from, and in groups are impossible to take down significantly even through ambush. They get to the spot, they build their stuff, skulks have no chance of defending against it and with RFK they're actually better off just waiting in the hive and hoping the marines leave any action until someone can get fade.
On paper what you're saying is wonderful, it just doesn't transpose into game terms so well. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exactly.
Recoup, you keep saying people are missing what you're saying... we're not. We understand that ambushing is more effective than rushing marines headlong. Ok? GIVEN. But that is only ONE role that the skulk must fill until fades arrive.
Sure. If all goes well, and your team is communicating (and since we seem to be talking about pubs, that can be asking for a lot, but ok, it happens), you're keeping track of marines that leave MS, skulks move to intercept, ambushes are laid, baits dangled, marines are picked off one by one.
But that doesn't always happen. And if it does, sooner or later, you miss some. Hell, becuase of PG, all it takes is one, especially when something is going on elsewhere on the map.
Suddenly, even in your perfect game, something goes wrong, the marines get a leg up on you, now they're somewhere they shouldn't be and you need to get them out.
What do you do? You can't ambush them, they're in a spot that you can't ambush. They're taking down your rt. If PG's are in play, maybe they're setting up a turret farm / siege station. Don't say get there before they did, because this time, despite your best efforts, you didn't.
What do you do?
You send in fades. Only, this can happen any time, including when you don't have fades. Especially in games of more than 7v7, those marines are freeking everywhere from 00:05 til whenever, and fades take longer to get. Your rts are dropping, you can either let them drop or you can try to stop them. And THAT means you need to assault, not ambush. And you're screwed because unless you can get everyone there, almost instantly, and you've got some leet bunnyhopping skulks, and/or the marines actually can't hit skulks that are climbing the walls (most can you know). Realistically, that's not going to happen, especially for the earliest events, 2-3 marines killing an rt. You're going to get anywhere from 2 skulk attacks before the rt goes down to maybe a dozen, tops. And chances are, those skulks are going to get owned because vanilla skulks are like paper.
THAT's what everyone else is talking about. No one is saying "help us Recoup, we don't know how to ambush". They're saying, "when skulks are forced to assault they are so weak that they fail utterly most of the time". And they're not saying "all skulks should do is assault", they're saying "sometimes they are forced to assault despite their best efforts to avoid that neccessity".
I'm not an amazing skulk, but I'm not bad either. I can bunnyhop at blinding speed, so sometimes I try to use that keep pressure on, counting on taking lone marines or small groups by suprise. By getting kills far from base, soon after spawning, I'm helping to keep safety zones around our hives, and earning RFK. If determine that a marine is coming in my direction and hasn't heard me yet, I'll try for an ambush. If my rushing isn't yeilding any results, I'll slow down and parasite and ambush more (although if the former method works, it gets much better results than ambushing... you'll have to trust me on that one though I guess). When I ambush, sometimes I get a kill, sometimes 2 or more. Sometimes I'm dead before I hit the floor. All of these things have their place. Whatever is working.
But sooner or later, usually sooner, marines get inside our territory and oh oh, they're killing an rt. Now I'm stuck rushing them. Really, I don't have any choice. And 9 times out 10, I die. So does everyone else. And then it happens somewhere else. Maybe 4 people show up to try and stop them. They all die. Now there's a long wait to respawn. Now the marines have momentum. They're all over our territory and we're rushing around, trying to put out fires. They're locking down a hive. They're killing more rts. They're building turret farms. They're chasing gorges. They're spawn killing in the hive. No amount of ambushing helps now, all we can do is rush to try and save what little we have left.
Does this happen every game? No, it doesn't. But it happens a lot. And it's no one's fault, it's not because no one knew how to ambush, it happens to even the best teams of aliens when facing almost any marine squad with more than 50% capable marines, with an even decent commander, especially in games of more than 7 vs 7. And because it happens ALL THE TIME, despite GOOD PLAYERS using ALL THE SKULK TECHNIQUES AVAILABLE TO THEM, INCLUDING AMBUSHING, and because these good players are largely powerless to stop the slide without fades, people tend to think that the skulk could use a wee bit of buffing. For those times when ambushing won't help. Which is, in fact, a lot of the time.
Get it?
Thank you T. Ali.
On the concept though, if the attack is really as bad as you make it sound, then dont rush by yourself. Even a group of two skulks have the potential to be lethal, since one can either act as a target marker, or they can both do twice the damage and cause twice the hazard. Once a skulk gets into a group of marines (three or so) their chances of killing you have dropped drastically. You have closed the distance, and now you have to take them out with a few bites.
If there are two or three taking out an RT, and you are forced to rush by yourself, and they eventually get a PG and TF up, its not your fault at all, nor the unit's HP. If it was really just you attacking, then your team was not working together and therfor did nothing to assist you or prevent the forward base's deployment. If you can say "I want two more players waiting outside their point" then you can easily overtake them when two players come into view. If the entire team is rushing your position, its a guarenteed success rate, since I've had teams of heavies with HMG's go down to probably 4 skulks who kept up the pace and would NOT sit still.
You are worried about just 10 or 20 more hitpoints, get Carpace. A skulk doesnt really have any use for Regeneration or Redemption, so get Carpace. Its not a guarenteed uber-bullet stopper, but it will help you. Ive come out of a fight with armor dangling off my counter because I had gotten carpace. It helps more than you think, and I guess if you wanted to add more health, you would have to have a skulk around 80 health and 40 or 50 armor, and with a carpace boost that makes it 80 health and 70 armor. Thats actually a lot of hit points for a small, level 1, weak unit.
As I said, if you can work together, you are almost guarenteed victory unless their team can communicate and work together BETTER than you. A Fade and his group of 2 skulks is a deadly thrio that takes a while to whittle down, since a marine will usually aim for the Fade while the skulks come in from the flanks and rear and take him out. Skulks dont assault alone, they assault as a team. If you assault alone, use leap. If you aint got leap, bunny hop. I know it wont keep you alive, but you jack down his accuracy at LEAST. If you die, your team should already have been alerted of the marines attacking and been in the area.
One use I havent mentioned about the skulk is your spy/observer. He can sit in the dark corner with parasite out and monitor enemy troop movements. It proves almost invaluable with cloaking as well. You can sit virtually anywhere with cloak and monitor the enemy moving and possibly parasite the entire team before they spot you. If the hitpoints are too low for you, go Lerk. Its a mere 5 res from your starting res. If you died, well, tough. Stick it out the rest of the game.
Also, alien tactics are not confined to the same thing over and over again. In fact, once you have learned all the strategies of the game, they level out quite equally. Im always seeing new ideas for chamber placement put into effect on the server I play on, as well as many experienced players who, as aliens, generally win. I saw a really neat setup the other day in fact.
A gorge had set up the wall that would NOT come down. He had 2 OC's in the front, two DC's in the back, one OC on top of the two DC's, a movement in the rear and a sensory behind some crates. The marines battered themselves against this wall over and over again, but the movement allowed the gorge to heal fast, the sensory kept the un-used chambers invisible, and the DC's healed while the OC's kept the marines in check. You dont need a WoL the since of Montana. You just need tactics.
Skulks, for one thing, take some time to get used to, and I admit, if you start off with one, you feel weak, yes. So, generally, when you start you ambush, and as you get more experienced you begin to develop new ideas. The skulks primary and uber-ability is its ability to walk on the WALLS, as well as move as fast as the bullets fom your LMG. Its a light, recon, almost support unit with limited offensive capabilities. However, 9/10 times, the alien will be able to dismember marines teams instead of a lone marines killing a team of skulks. It just works that way. Marines clutter each other and are prone to easy two bites, and for marines, its all about how big your ammo counter is. Once it reaches 0 and you are still being attacked, its over for you.
In short: Skulks CAN be used as an effective assault unit if you use them correctly. Yes, it takes time to learn, but in the end, a Lerk is only a short res-stretch away, and if you walk as a skulk, they cant hear you. If a marine is knifing your RT, run the long distance, and walk the short one. If he is just around the corner, walk towards him so he doesnt hear you. You have just caught him completely off guard and you are almost guarenteed a kill since he has to whip out his LMG/Shotgun/HMG/GL in order to get YOU first. However, you have made the first strike, and therfor and sealed his fate.
No, it seems you did not.
Working as a team and communication as aliens are nullified by one thing on the marine side...their ability to aim. A marine team recently decimated a very organised team rush by us skulks, to stop them relocating to a double res point. How? The game was only new, they didn't have anything special, but there were three of them working as a team. However, coming down the coridoor their were 6 of us skulks, dispersing and going after the targets.
No marines died, all six skulks did. Perhaps the skulks weren't skilled enough, I was the last of the pack and I was shot down just before I got in munching range, but I have to ask...why should three marines be able to do that? Why should they be able to stand at a point they can't be ambushed from, waiting for the CC to be dropped, and destroy a whole team in the space of a few seconds trying to stop them?
This isn't a freak case, in different scenario's this happens every game, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. The shotgun rush is a gamble that the comm makes without knowing how good his team are at shooting a shotgun or indeed aiming. It is not, however, their communication or teamwork that wni the shotgun rush, it is just the fact marines can aim, one shot, one kill per alien. They get in that hive and suddenly it's bye bye game, hello boredom. Sometimes of course, they are stupid, don't target the aliens in favour of the hive, or just plain can't shoot.
This doesn't stop it happening every game, with skilled and unskilled skulks. I've seen very unskilled alien teams win against marines thanks to the marines not being able to shoot properly. Funnily enough these games tend to be carried by the comm, and tend to be close and go on for a while...like back in the day where marines couldn't shoot the new type of creature they were playing against any more than the newbies (as we all were) could control a skulk properly...and the same result was given.
If you work together you have a chance, but one marine right now is better than two skulks for all of the game if he has the ability to aim, and when it comes down to stopping that marine and his mates building a siege base, you can have as much teamwork as you like, because as long as those marines have at least half as many as who's attacking them, they'll all survive. All it takes is for one to survive to make the rush against them useless, thanks to the spawning for the aliens, and the ease of getting back to that spot for marines via PG's.
Put in RFK on the situation, where aliens MUST attack, in character some would say, constantly, sending wave after wave in to defeat the threat...as a swarm, and reward the marines for that behaviour...it defies all logic in my book. It's so simply wrong that this should happen that it's no surprise that people find the game unbalanced. It's like giving aliens res for marines killing them at long range...absolutely arse-backwards.
No, it seems you did not. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Have you stopped being an a** for every post I put up?
No, it seems you did not.
Yes, I know that if the marines ARE working together, they can be a force to be reckoned with. But, in the same cases I've had my groups of six marines fall to only two well-placed Skulks. Its a sad prospect and I normally yell at them fiercely for being so incompetent, but in the case its the fact that the skulks did their job and they did it well. If the marines have a spot outside your hive that is PG up and you are unable to kill them 5 minutes into the game, then you deserve to die. Early PG rushes are so easy to beat that its humiliating.
But no, 3 teams of marines do NOT line up in every game and camp in the middle of the room and take out six skulks. My question is, why did you run in before waiting for the CC to be dropped? By then you would have bought yourself a few seconds to get inside and wipe out the guards and then attack the one building. Six skulks... you should have dominated! They must have been bad players because when I have seen six skulks go up against 3 vanilla marines, they always lost. Always. If the aliens ever outnumbered you in skulks by twice the number, you always died. Im serious. In my history of playing NS I have never seen that kind of a scenario.
But, as we all know, not every player is going to have really good aiming. Once a skulk gets in close he bunny-hops and shoots blindly around him unless he can keep his concentration. But yes, I have also played with very respectable players as well, some with massive K:D ratios that I wont ever have any hope of getting, and when they join Marines they suck horribly, but all in all, skulks CAN be base-breakers because simply the damage they do per bite is large, and a rush of skulks in an early, empty marines base is more lethal that a marine rush into an early alien hive.
One thing that sets apart spawning as a marine instead of an alien is that when you spawn as a marine, the aliens know WHERE you will spawn, but as an alien, your spawn location is randomized through the entire hive-area, meaning you could pop out on top of the guy's head and he wouldnt even know it. Easy: two skulks camp the IP's while the rest munch on the base. Its lame, but it works.
All in all, I have never, ever seen any reason for skulks to get a beefing whatsoever, and have never seen anyone complain on a server saying "Skulks are too weak!" Ever. This is the first time I have gotten to argue in the defense that it needs to stay as it is, because, well, it just does.
But.
The number of players who actually skulk like you and me is so ridiculously low, you're basically telling 90% of the NS community to get more skill. It wont work that way. Give the people with less understanding of the game a small hp boost, so there is actually room for error, which might make being skulk a less frustrating experience for new players. They do need more skill, perhaps, but the skill you want them to have involves months, maybe years for people who're slow to catch on to things. There either needs to be a decent tutorial which explains ambushing, or a small hp boost for skulks to compensate for the general 'lack of skill'.
I just built a second IP and got the marines flowing out.
We won that game, by the way, because massive slaughter of skulks is more likely to happen than a massive marine one.
I know n00bs are not as good at it as you might think, but you learn with time. 90% of the community is not innepts to fighting as a skulk. Its actually probably around 65% of the community being new to the game, and then becoming veterans with age. It took me 3 months to get the complete hang of aliens and how they functioned and their tactics. So, give the n00bs some time and they will learn. We cannot hold your hand every time and give you a huge HP boost and say "there, go have fun now!" you have to deal with what you have.
Right now, early fades win the game for the aliens, either that, or sheer commander incompetence.
If you are so worried about jacking them up by a few hitpoints, get Carapace!
216.58.238.189:27050
Edge, Sabre Wolf, Shinra Zero, Pumpinator, and Scrappy are all in charge basically. Edge is the most razor refined leading admin. Yoshi is just crazy... <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
*IF* the skulks are in a position to ambush, it works; but skulks can't be in positions to get into an ambush position for every point of contestation, and get res, and stop hive lockdowns, all at the same time! This is why more often than not marines manage to get past any skulk defenses that aren't there because the skulks HAVE to do something like get res because the time limit is too short to allow for fannying about.
And in that situation there is no ambush available...and that situation happens a lot...so no ambushes on the Shotgun rushers, or siege rushers happens a lot!
<span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>Lets see if size gets this through to you...ambushing rarely happens because marines being able to get in to one of several unflushable siege/PG spots is too easy given the needs of the skulks to do other things than just hang around and scout around.</span>
As I said, on paper what you say is perfectly true...but in game it certainly is not. Read T.Ali's post properly.
oh, and your example of a couple of skulks wiping out 6 marines? Either they couldn't aim for ****, or they were generally all round poor. Personally, on the servers I've been on, the marines don't tend to be idiots, and thus I've never seen big groups of marines taken out by less skulks.
If the marines get in a spot that they can easily camp, IE a long hallway with Phase Gates and TF, then dont bring in a set of skulks, Bring in some Fades. By the time they have Phase Tech and a Turret Farm around, you should have or be close to having Fades in the game. Skulks are not meant for every task in the game, though they CAN be used effectively for others. A camped marine position is not set up for skulks, although it is possible to take it out. You wont be as effective, but you can do it. If you have 7 skulks moving into a LMG marine position, you can very well take it apart, hallway or not.
However, we are only looking at this through the "What if" scenario. Well, what if a set of skulks rushed the marine base while the enemy camped? What if you took out resources nodes by yourself while your team kept the enemy pinned down? What if someone went Fade? What if you have a second hive and could bile bomb their position from a vent, ledge, or strafe from behind a wall and into open to do a quick bile and back out again? What if you have 3 hives and could use Xeno? Leap? Acid rocket with a Fade? Charge in with Onos ability if you have enough res nodes or hives? Spam OC's at their position and then move in? Gas them out with lerk? Fly in for a quick focus bite and then out again? I can come up with dozens of "What if..." scenarios on paper, but frankly it wouldnt help.
Skulks, when en mass, can do damage. A troupe of 5 skulks can skillfully dismantle a PG/TF if they work together. If you rush in single file, your odds of survival are limited. I know that there are times you NEED to attack. I understand. But, you cannot expect a skulk to attack WELL and do a massive amount of damage with their attack. They are level 1, weak-unit lifeforms that ARE built for ambush. You CAN use them for assaults, but its just not the best course of action.
7 skulks moving in on 3 or 4 entrenched marines, not even considering turrets, will get mashed up by any competant marine side. And if your team is dying over and over (and hence not getting res, and probably losing res too) then how are they meant to do anything and/or have any fun as aliens while they wait for someone to go Fade?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->However, we are only looking at this through the "What if" scenario. Well, what if a set of skulks rushed the marine base while the enemy camped? What if you took out resources nodes by yourself while your team kept the enemy pinned down?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, *if* a set of skulks are co-ordinated enough to attack the marine base, and the comm was stupid enough not to leave a marine near by...it all lends a lot of assumption though to enough skulks being out, and communicating...and not getting killed. Because as soon as they're dead, they're in the endless cycle of waiting/dying to the campers.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->What if you have a second hive and could bile bomb their position from a vent, ledge, or strafe from behind a wall and into open to do a quick bile and back out again? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You like your paper based scenario's don't you?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->What if you have 3 hives and could use Xeno? Leap? Acid rocket with a Fade? Charge in with Onos ability if you have enough res nodes or hives?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Have you not noticed we're not talking about the three hvie stage, but the 1 hive stage within the first 10 minutes of the game.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I can come up with dozens of "What if..." scenarios on paper, but frankly it wouldnt help.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First sensible thing you've said.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Skulks, when en mass, can do damage. A troupe of 5 skulks can skillfully dismantle a PG/TF if they work together. If you rush in single file, your odds of survival are limited. I know that there are times you NEED to attack. I understand. But, you cannot expect a skulk to attack WELL and do a massive amount of damage with their attack. They are level 1, weak-unit lifeforms that ARE built for ambush. You CAN use them for assaults, but its just not the best course of action.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well then something needs to be sorted out in the game then doesn't it, because in a majority of the games skulks are forced in to assault mode for most of the map. If they're not built for it, then why are they the only thing available during the time when they're most needed? And you only need 3 skulks to dismantle a PG/TF, but getting them close enough is another matter entirely.
I am presenting "What if" scenarios since you ALSO throw in "What if" scenarios. They CAN camp a spot in a hallway, but a large group of skulks almost always succeed in a swarm attack unless the ENTIRE marine team is in the hallway, all firing away at the same time with the same 100% accuracy that you seem to favor in a lot of cases. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Skulks are not forced into assault mode until 7 to 10 minutes into the game. Hell, you can camp the marines for the full 10 minutes, and by a very short time you should already have Fades on the offensive by then. Bothersome skulks who keep me from getting res because they have the areas locked down on the roof, walls, and behind crates, really drive me crazy, especially if the players are good. 4 skulks can stop the marine team from progressing very quickly by themselves through constant harassment. It works, trust me.
No I don't, I do believe I make it very clear that I'm talking about marines that may be completely unskilled as marines, but can aim. If you honestly believe a significant number of marine players can't aim enough to take out a skulk coming down a coridoor, or is part of a group of 6 people and can't track and take down a skulk or two that is attacking them...then I am completely bemused at what type of server you're playing on.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If that 4 teams of marines focuses on one skulk each, then you still have another 3 coming at them assuming they killed the 4 skulks with their aim. You know, you havent mentioned anything about skilled ALIEN players, just skilled MARINE players. Well yeah, you have skilled marine players, but you have even better skilled alien players. A guy named Jade who came onto our server and dismantled entire teams of marines by himself as a skulk, and we are talking about him going up against Goldenforce, Smiley, Stall, very good players.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again, as Buggy said, this type of player is the vast minority. Same as the number of marines that can't aim. If 4 marines target one skulk each, by the way, they kill 4 skulks with half a coridoor still to go, then kill the final three before they reach.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I am presenting "What if" scenarios since you ALSO throw in "What if" scenarios. They CAN camp a spot in a hallway, but a large group of skulks almost always succeed in a swarm attack unless the ENTIRE marine team is in the hallway, all firing away at the same time with the same 100% accuracy that you seem to favor in a lot of cases. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not presenting what if scenario's, I'm talking about what happens in game, what has happened in game and what will happen in game if nothing changes.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Skulks are not forced into assault mode until 7 to 10 minutes into the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Bollocks, pure and simple.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Hell, you can camp the marines for the full 10 minutes, and by a very short time you should already have Fades on the offensive by then. Bothersome skulks who keep me from getting res because they have the areas locked down on the roof, walls, and behind crates, really drive me crazy, especially if the players are good. 4 skulks can stop the marine team from progressing very quickly by themselves through constant harassment. It works, trust me.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'll trust my own experiences, and the experiences I'm overwhelmingly hearing that tend to point towards what I'm saying being the norm.
However, I never said a large majority of marines cant aim, although it sometimes feels like it when my marine wastes a clip of an LMG attacking an alien coming down the hall, and misses.
216.58.238.189:27050
Edge, Sabre Wolf, Shinra Zero, Pumpinator, and Scrappy are all in charge basically. Edge is the most razor refined leading admin. Yoshi is just crazy... <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Meh, it says you aren't allowed to bunnyhop there. No thanks <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->