No jokes here.
niaccurshi
Join Date: 2002-12-30 Member: 11629Members, Constellation
Join Date: 2002-12-30 Member: 11629Members, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">Discussion split from Noble Fade's topic...</div> why is it that the people that like these new versions never seem to have anything to say about it, other than "leave it alone, it's done really well considering" or "well considering it was blah blah blah it's alright!"
You say NS isn't a mirror of CS? no you're right, it's not even good enough right now to be a mirror. 10 minutes on one map, and now completely one sided for a whole map. At least CS, through all it's faults and boring spells still allows you to play a map for 20-30 minutes with the prospect of at least one turn around between teams. The difference with NS is there are no turn arounds, and you can't even play with the weapon you most want to half of the time, just carrying out mundane tasks, or tasks that are irrelevant because the other team is the one that has already shown they'll win.
NS is a poor imitation of its former self, although the thread starters points I actually find laughable as neagtive ones (ie I don't think they exist in that form, but his underlying point is very much true). NS used to be special, before 1.04...when it had promise. And it was so very special for the short time I got to play it with so many others that had a LOT of fun in the beta's before it got assigned the 3.0 version tag. Now it's just another game in an ocean of mediocre games.
But turret farming isn't a problem <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
You say NS isn't a mirror of CS? no you're right, it's not even good enough right now to be a mirror. 10 minutes on one map, and now completely one sided for a whole map. At least CS, through all it's faults and boring spells still allows you to play a map for 20-30 minutes with the prospect of at least one turn around between teams. The difference with NS is there are no turn arounds, and you can't even play with the weapon you most want to half of the time, just carrying out mundane tasks, or tasks that are irrelevant because the other team is the one that has already shown they'll win.
NS is a poor imitation of its former self, although the thread starters points I actually find laughable as neagtive ones (ie I don't think they exist in that form, but his underlying point is very much true). NS used to be special, before 1.04...when it had promise. And it was so very special for the short time I got to play it with so many others that had a LOT of fun in the beta's before it got assigned the 3.0 version tag. Now it's just another game in an ocean of mediocre games.
But turret farming isn't a problem <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Comments
cs had promise. as did tfc.
kkthxbai
ps: im not saying ns has degenerated to the level of cs, altho in some pubs one might think so occasionally. im merely trying to point out that ANY game is totally awesome and cool..... for the first couple of months/years its out. then u get new versions, versions that are different than the one u got used to. and new people find the game, some of them that you'd rather not want to see in the game. its your mind playing tricks that makes u think ns, the game itself, has degenerated.
if u still think youre right go play 1.04, it works on steam. or 2.01, whatever version u started with.
NS had promise because it brought something new to the table...intense gaming, RTS elements...now it's just another run of the mill FPS with a gimmick. One incidently that FPS fans won't touch it seems, favouring those games where they probably feel like they're doing something other than pressing use and pointing and clicking.
I started before 1.04 incidently.
Stop jumping on the 1.04 bandwagon. Sure, 3.0 isn't balanced, I'm not saying that, but its sure as hell more balanced than 1.04. Oh, and you can't bring back games anymore? Wow, someone's never played on a server with competent players. I can't even count how many times it'll totally reverse whose winning in a game, merely because the players keep hitting the other team in their weaknesses. People complain about no more epic games: I'll admit their rare, but they CAN happen. I had one sunday that lasted 4 hours. Was great. Nowadays, its much easier for things to be decided because total idiots get killed by people who know what their doing, unlike in 1.04 where a pro(as skulk) was on par with a noob(as a LA HMG/SG), where merely weapon/race could decide a battle. Now, many times its the same way, but its so much more about skill at the same time.
I wish people would stop just saying 3.0 sucks and give a damned good reason. It was new, whoopdee. Now is the real NS. Its the way it was supposed to be, and if you don't like it, leave. We really don't need negative people, the community is having a hard enough time anyway.
3.0 isn't bad for turret farming, or for fade problems, or little niggles like that, it's simply a general overall imbalance of marines vs aliens and the lack of fun that comes with games being purposefully compressed in to 15 minute max games. Wow, you had one epic game the other day, big woop. I remember the days where it was one epic game after the other. I'd start playing NS at midnight and have to leave halfway through the 4th map of the night to go to bed before the sun rose! Every single one of those games was fun, even when losing as aliens, and you could even join halfway through and not feel like you might as well spectate because your usefulness is about zilch unless you're a "pro" in 3.0.
Go check out the public beta discussion if you want to see more of what people have said re: balance issues and why 3.0 is so bad.
3.0 isn't bad for turret farming, or for fade problems, or little niggles like that, it's simply a general overall imbalance of marines vs aliens and the lack of fun that comes with games being purposefully compressed in to 15 minute max games. Wow, you had one epic game the other day, big woop. I remember the days where it was one epic game after the other. I'd start playing NS at midnight and have to leave halfway through the 4th map of the night to go to bed before the sun rose! Every single one of those games was fun, even when losing as aliens, and you could even join halfway through and not feel like you might as well spectate because your usefulness is about zilch unless you're a "pro" in 3.0.
Go check out the public beta discussion if you want to see more of what people have said re: balance issues and why 3.0 is so bad. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And I wonder why 3.0 so far has been almost all bug fixes, and the little balance issues were more of just experiments.
And if you said 1.04 isn't better, then whats with the "NS is a poor imitation of its former self"? What exactly does that mean? The same complaints about 2.0 are here about 3.0.
And frankly, some people don't like epic games. Some do. It really depends on your style. TBH, the "Epic" games I thought were too much empty space. There was more time spent waiting to get something(lvl 2 weapons! FINALLY!), less time DOING things. Now, everything you do matters, and you directly impact your team's success. Back then, it was the Comm vs. the aliens, and usually the comm won anyway thanks to JP/HMG rushes.
If there was more content in the game, I'd love for game times to go to "Epic" again, but with there not being 20 levels of armor/weapon upgrades, and 6 different marine types, and 12 instead of 9 upgrades for aliens, whats the use of having it being longer when most of it is empty, worthless time?
<span style='color:red'>Edit:</span> This isn't meant as a bash, but more as a comment, but: It seems to me those that complain about things in the Pub Beta discussion forum seem to discuss what needs to be fixed more than they play the game, and thus their opinions end up being really warped versions of facts, and are then accepted as fact.
This does not mean that I don't have any fun playing beta 3. It's just that now instead of having fun playing a fresh and fun game I'm having fun killing tons of idiots on pubs and playing pugs with intelligent(mostly) people.
As for turret farming and sieging, if you let them build it you had better be ready to take it out. That's how the game works. I've played pugs where the marines were sieging our hive and we managed to get another hive going up and take out all the marine rts. With no res flow those marines won't last long even if they do knock out your hive. Most of all you should always know where the marines are on the map.
And if you said 1.04 isn't better, then whats with the "NS is a poor imitation of its former self"? What exactly does that mean? The same complaints about 2.0 are here about 3.0.
And frankly, some people don't like epic games. Some do. It really depends on your style. TBH, the "Epic" games I thought were too much empty space. There was more time spent waiting to get something(lvl 2 weapons! FINALLY!), less time DOING things. Now, everything you do matters, and you directly impact your team's success. Back then, it was the Comm vs. the aliens, and usually the comm won anyway thanks to JP/HMG rushes.
If there was more content in the game, I'd love for game times to go to "Epic" again, but with there not being 20 levels of armor/weapon upgrades, and 6 different marine types, and 12 instead of 9 upgrades for aliens, whats the use of having it being longer when most of it is empty, worthless time?
<span style='color:red'>Edit:</span> This isn't meant as a bash, but more as a comment, but: It seems to me those that complain about things in the Pub Beta discussion forum seem to discuss what needs to be fixed more than they play the game, and thus their opinions end up being really warped versions of facts, and are then accepted as fact. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, I'm not 14, I understand when things aren't a flame <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
The poor imitation of its former self is refering to the way the game has evovled. Regardless of what the dev team have been concentrating on, they have shortened the game too much in classic. Before 1.04 wasn't so bad, it was so unbalanced, but it was fun. I'm willing to accept though that that is probably more rose tinted glasses. But 1.04 (whoever liked it, I really hope it was because your server was one of those that didn't have the **** that always had people on there and telling the people that were ruining the fun with JP rushes to stop) was awful, and this is what 3.0 feels like now, something so comparable to 1.04.
One set of gamers will eventually leave this game, it'll either be those that were drawn to the RTS elements that WERE present in pre-1.04, and for most of the 2.0 versions, balanced or not, or those that have come since and just like quick FPS games.
You say everything you do matters now and it didn't before? Well you weren't really involved in epic games then in the past, because the special thing about them was that you were constantly doing things in those epic games, especially as Aliens...comms certainly had to think on their feet more.
What now? I don't get the feeling everything I do is important as a rine, I feel part of a group of people that are pretty much garanteed to win...and it all depends on the competency of the comm, as a good comm always in general, in the games I've played in all 3.0 versions, will always mean a good alien team doesn't have a chance! As an alien there doesn't feel like much I can do these days either! Aliens seem to do nothing in almost all the maps I've played in 3.0. No oc's are ever put down, I rarely see a third hive any more, the map's are bare. Whereas once both teams worked to overtake the map before dealing the killer blow, now aliens just wait for Fade, or wait to be able to put the second hive up, or put down some chambers. Then, ultimately, they wait to die more times than they don't.
But I agree, some people will enjoy this, and some won't...the difference is that people that enjoy the game as it currently is and lobby to keep it this way (obviouusly with a bit more balance, I'm not saying they're stupid) are killing the uniqueness this game always held.
What now? I don't get the feeling everything I do is important as a rine, I feel part of a group of people that are pretty much garanteed to win...and it all depends on the competency of the comm, as a good comm always in general, in the games I've played in all 3.0 versions, will always mean a good alien team doesn't have a chance! As an alien there doesn't feel like much I can do these days either! Aliens seem to do nothing in almost all the maps I've played in 3.0. No oc's are ever put down, I rarely see a third hive any more, the map's are bare. Whereas once both teams worked to overtake the map before dealing the killer blow, now aliens just wait for Fade, or wait to be able to put the second hive up, or put down some chambers. Then, ultimately, they wait to die more times than they don't.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have to disagree with you on the point that you don't fell like you are important, and that your contribution is valuable. The more I think about how it was in 1.04, the more I feel like I didn't matter, we just moved in groups, shooting at aliens and slowly marching to where we were going. Someone else could have been in my place, and it wouldn't have effected the group or game in the slightest. It was much more follow comms orders, no thinking for yourself. This is of course in games where there was no jp/hmg rush.
Right now, in b5, I feel like every rt I kill or put up, every alien I kill, all the phases I build, are important, if I wasn't there they wouldn't have happened. On aliens as long as the teams are balanced I feel even more so that everything I do will help my team.
As for the game lengths, I think they flow much better with the average game at 10-15mins. Of course if you have no competent aliens they'll have every rt and be in your hive with shotties in 3 mins. But generally when you have good players you get good games, ranging from 10-40 mins full of action and excitment, none of the stalemate and slowness of 1.04(again, not counting jp rushes).
I think the problem at the moment, is where aliens just can't compete early game, then rely on a fade to keep them in the game long enough for the second hive. If they have made it that far.. it's almost guaranteed win as long as aliens use teamwork.
Back in 1.04, I did contribute to the team a lot. I was usually the gorge, and as a rine was usually RT guy. I liked it- I sucked, but I loved it. But now(maybe its just because my skill level is so much higher), I feel like I personally can make the outcome of my team based purely on if I try or not, or if I screw up. Whats funny is, I'm not usually fade. Or Onos. Or lerk anymore either since I lost my 1.04 jump script(imagine the instant height of 1.04, combined with today's flight style). I only do Skulk. And on rines, I'm still usually RT guy, but then again, once I get that JP, I get to the hive a good 30 seconds before others. I just feel like I directly effect everything now...but, as I said, it may be because of skill.
niac, what I can not quite follow is your argumentation regarding the alienization of the RTS demographic. I sincerely hope that you do not simply mean to point at Combat here, and from your last post, it seems that you think the RTS' demise has to do with the current marine bias of the game. I agree that it exists, and (as I think B5's first timid steps in that direction already indicate) we are going to do a few things about it in the weeks to come, but you admit yourself that a lot of the game's feel still depends on the commander's competency, which is to my mind a clear indication of an emphasis on the RTS aspect. Would you care to clear that up for me?
I think he means that the commander has taken a much more of a back seat. In pubs, if you have skilled marines, you don't need the comm for anything more than building meds and ammo, you don't need to be commanded much. Any comm that can place rts and give meds can win, no strategy needed. The marines go out and do what needs to be done, they don't need waypoints or anything other than support. However in a pcw/scrim/match/whatever I feel having a strategy and co-ordination from the commander becomes 10x more important.
As for b5 and 1.04 having the same problems, I guess you are right. Both versions a second hive was paramount to success, both you had to protect your rt infrastructure at all costs. In both, marines dominated early game and a second hive meant almost certain victory. DMS was the needed chamber order, which makes it very predictable and cuts out a lot of strategies.
How was this solved? In 2.0 skulks had higher base hp, marines could not bhop and alien rts had more health. Combined with the slightly dodgy hitboxes for skulks, it made them able to compete early game. In my opinion, raising skulk hp and lowering the second hives' effectiveness would go a long way to achieve more intense, better, more balanced games <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
"I think he means that the commander has taken a much more of a back seat. In pubs, if you have skilled marines, you don't need the comm for anything more than building meds and ammo, you don't need to be commanded much. Any comm that can place rts and give meds can win, no strategy needed. The marines go out and do what needs to be done, they don't need waypoints or anything other than support. However in a pcw/scrim/match/whatever I feel having a strategy and co-ordination from the commander becomes 10x more important."
Wrong, I've had comm experiance where all the marines are accurate and smart, but wouldnt listen for orders and say "we need double" blah blah and take it all by themselves. However, during that time we lost our foothold on the last hive and lost, simply because they wouldnt goto the wp and defend with the solo guy that followed orders. Marines still rely heavily on the comm, speed in droping medpacks, getting upgrades in a flexible order, ect ect. not all the time does wep, pg, armor, upg armory, wep, ect ect work.
"As for b5 and 1.04 having the same problems, I guess you are right. Both versions a second hive was paramount to success, both you had to protect your rt infrastructure at all costs. In both, marines dominated early game and a second hive meant almost certain victory. DMS was the needed chamber order, which makes it very predictable and cuts out a lot of strategies."
Thats true the build order is nub friendly, but that is the easiest order also. It is somewhat predictable, but if you placed tons of OCs everywhere and all your DCs are somewhere marines can get to them... it hurts to see going from lvl3 regen to lvl 1. Smart comms will find the DC cluster if they arent near the hive and get some marines to rape it. THAT is a strategy people seem to have forgotten. Same with MC, typical is 2 MC at one hive 1 MC at the other. How many panic attacks have you heard about "HURRY BUILD SOME *insert structure* ATH THE OTHER HIVE* due to the fact marines havnt gotten sieges up but have killed all the support structures. BTW, Second hive was always intended to be part of the procedure to win... by that time marines have upgrades and some bunkers...
"How was this solved? In 2.0 skulks had higher base hp, marines could not bhop and alien rts had more health. Combined with the slightly dodgy hitboxes for skulks, it made them able to compete early game. In my opinion, raising skulk hp and lowering the second hives' effectiveness would go a long way to achieve more intense, better, more balanced games"
Oh yeah compair screwed up "hitboxes" (seems to be one of the two stupid catchall I hear people whine aboot here), with a game that they have started to correct this. You know I was always killing fades back in earlier versions simply due I didnt under stand it but realized lead the fade when he started to run away, and rail it with the HMG/LMG. Its taht thing called strategy. The game is somewhat "balanced" (another catchall word *gasp*) but it all depends on integral points of the gameplay.
NOTE: I'm not trying to flame, I'm just stateing my aspects to see if maybe it can develop edjucated opinions. I may not be the highest authority, but I _try_ and take the most thought out routes. <!--emo&::siege::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/siege.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='siege.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<span style='color:white'>An admin's note here, Axel: Please tone your argumentation's aggressiviness down a tad. I'm sure you don't mean harm, but I don't want to have to nuke your posts as flamebait.</span>
Edit: I'm sorry, I try to keep it toned down. ^.^''
The build order for aliens is there simply because it's what works best most of the time. Sure you CAN win with sc or mc, but you would have planned it before hand with everyone knowing what they are doing. You just don't get that on an average pub, even with high skill players, the teamwork from playing together just isn't there.
Dcs in vents don't happen often simply because it's easy for the marines to get their, either through boosting or a mine ladder. So on the top of the hive is usually the best place for them, no way the marines are going to get them without jp or siege.
The screwed up hitboxes did matter a lot, think of the 2.0 onos; survived longer with less hp. The onos got a boost for 3.0 with the corrected hitbox, why did the skulk get nerfed not boosted?
niac, what I can not quite follow is your argumentation regarding the alienization of the RTS demographic. I sincerely hope that you do not simply mean to point at Combat here, and from your last post, it seems that you think the RTS' demise has to do with the current marine bias of the game. I agree that it exists, and (as I think B5's first timid steps in that direction already indicate) we are going to do a few things about it in the weeks to come, but you admit yourself that a lot of the game's feel still depends on the commander's competency, which is to my mind a clear indication of an emphasis on the RTS aspect. Would you care to clear that up for me?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wow, this topic split really freaked me out for a second, didn't think I started a forum thread recently <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I don't point at combat, firstly, I don't know if I said it earlier or somewhere else, but I don't play Combat, it's not what interests me...thus I don't comment on how good or bad it is.
I actually (since thinking about it, and playing a few...different...games today) think it's not so much the marine dominance as a combination of a couple of things that has diluted the RTS feel to the game, and pretty much eliminated any RTS feel in terms of strategy.
OK...so the commanders competancy (I do *not* mean they take a back seat, t20, though what you say does hold relevance. Aliens ae certainly not much of a threat to comms so much before 5 minutes as no skulk right now should be able to kill a decent marine that has set up camp)...yes I do know exactly where you're coming from here...but there are per map like 2 or 3 set strats...most comms use them and they work or they fail...and then thats it. It's like playing objective maps more than playing an RTS/FPS hybrid, because you do the same thing every map, pretty much...it's very much like "well shall I go bombsite B or A" with a tiny little bit more depth. Only the really good comms actually re-introduce the RTS element, because they actually pick the game up from the jaws of defeat, working on the fly (usually only combined with good teamwork on the part of the marines) to recover the situation and use different strats.
It's this dependance that takes the RTS feel away from marines. out of everyone they had it the least, even in 2.01, 1.04 or whatever. But there was still an element of feeling (something Quanaut seems to still hold, I wish I did) that you were doing something important. Now it's more...well...you're not doing anything important as it's not really relying on you or your skill any more. It's certainly the case on too many maps where it's far too easy to ammo up, sit at the end of a corridor and watch the only two entrances to your location pretty well, killing anything that goes by, even groups of 3 skulks while I'm on my own. It's not fun (as someone tried to tell me today, when they got the wrong end of the stick of my moanings! ) to own all the time.
For aliens the RTS feel is lost because you are just responding to the comms moves, carying out set mundane tasks. Every map it's...go gorge, get a res tower, go back skulk, try to kill RT's...oh no they electrified them...go defend for a second hive...oh wait, the marines got more RT's down first, they're now sieging our first hive before we can even get the second up...how immensely fun that was.
I know people say to the above "well it's your fault for letting them get the RT's up in the first place", but if that is an honest and valid argument then the game has failed...you might as well call it "Resource Tower Race!" and just have two teams race each other side by side to get to the RT's where they see who can build more the fastest. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I had three games today on Yo server that lasted for about 40-60 minutes...every single one of them was fun. I unfortunately had twice as many games as that at least that went for less than 15, half of them barely going over 10, minutes.
This (finally) brings me around to my point...the problem with comms is that the way they play now, clan game influence or not, I don't care, they need a quick win it seems. Some comms do go for fun as someone said in another thread, and I really commend that attitude, but most still go for the rush...thanks to not hearing where the first hive is any more, some do it by accident too now.
And with it, the Aliens are completely at a loss, because 10 minute games don't suit Aliens at all. It says something surely that in the past epic games were talked about so fondly, and that even in games today, the ones where EVERYONE says "gg! wow!" are the ones that last for around 30-40 minutes at least, but don't tend to go over 50-60. And it's with THESE games, that the RTS element comes back.
A game today was held on Origin, I was annoyed, as the last three games I'd played had been boring rush affairs...but suddenly this game actually gave me hope that NS can still redeem itself. Getting furnace hive, we stopped a "relocate" outside the double res point. We went on pretty quickly to get the second hive up, it looked pretty sweet, until they managed to get a base up quickly outside furnace, taking it out after a lengthy battle. Furnace then swapped hands no less than 4 times, with biodome only being built after some 40 minutes to give us a second hive. Localised battles all over the place, and so many times in agame that you think "you know, I really don't know who's going to win this one, I'm going to keep trying as hard as I can to get every bit of use out of my res pool as I can, because it's not over yet!"
You suddenly in these longer games have an element of RTS coming back for each individual player, and maybe I can't explain it properly, but it's that which got me hooked on NS pre 1.04. The idea that you really don't know who's going to win, and you keep trying new things, new approaches to get the edge.
Edit: To summarise slightly...I don't believe any game can be a fun RTS/FPS hybrid when three quarters of the time you're either playing as a marine and feeling kind of expendable, as if you being there doesn't matter as much as someone else taking your slot...or playing as aliens and you just don't have the time, or the actual strength in game to take on and build on an alein strategy, constantly battling against ranged gunfire you're helpless against, but must face to stop you from losing the game. I was quite defeatist perhaps in my earlier posts (forgive me, I'm a fan, and through poverty I still donated because I love the game...so it's hard to have gone so long with something that isn't what I loved) but now I'm interested to see how the balance changes take things, as I'm sure they'll help something...but to get the RTS feel back properly...I think it's something extra, most possibly game length, maybe something I haven't even mentioned.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As for b5 and 1.04 having the same problems, I guess you are right. Both versions a second hive was paramount to success, both you had to protect your rt infrastructure at all costs. In both, marines dominated early game and a second hive meant almost certain victory. DMS was the needed chamber order, which makes it very predictable and cuts out a lot of strategies.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thankyou for putting this better than I ever have, t20 <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
This was better in 1.04 you always had a chance of an comeback (because we were all noobs ?) but now its impossible. I think the Reason for this is the faster Gameplay. If you make an mistake there is no time to corect it.
In most games *marines* will win, but it still takes 10-15 minutes to do it. This is worse than the old days where you'd know the winner in 10 minutes but it'd take 40 overall to decide it properly...and about on par with 1.04 where you knew marines would win 4 times out of 5 with a JP rush, playing the map was a formality as aliens because nothing you could do would stop the onslaught unless you were significantly more skilled than the marine team, and as a marine it was a formality because as long as you built an RT when you're told you'd soon hav a JP to fly with impunity killing their first hive...not great fun.
At least with 1.04, skulks were hard enough to kill that you kind of feared seeing just one if you were on your own.
No, my point is very much that a) the game is obviously (as has been admitted, which is great) biased towards marines in anything that resembles a large game....and b) the games are so short that you don't have room for an RTS element in the game, only a reactive element to a pre-defined set of 2 or 3 map specific (though two of those are probably game specific) strats.
But do you have a solution for the Problem ??
Ultimately though I can only say what I see...marines control res too freely for cheap, and aliens don't "infest" maps any more. The fun games are those where marines aren't controlling the res, where res points swap hands several times, and where aliens start to lock down parts of the map meaning marines need to work towards their goal rather than just rush it.
Anywho... Its liez that the first 5 min determines who wins. Thats where the com and an organization or aliens come into play. I'd roughly say 1 gorge per 4 aliens is about what is necisary to compliment the alien team(well that and smart OC/structure placment, plus lovely RTs). Whereas with marine is relies on two people, the "field comm" and the actual commander. That is what really determines the game, now I admin theres a few games that its pretty obvious... but that isnt quite "the norm"
ok, reply 2... In most games the *marines* will win... simply because, it only relies on the comm largely... the real reason is simply put, pubs dont have much organization. I dont agree so much with the jp'ers being impervious to stomp, especially with the new mobility they have, it should be 100x easier to avoid stomp... plus what happend to being able to jump over stomp?! I remember being a heavy and jumping over it just to get stuck when the onos stomped twice instead of once. It took a bit more skill/practice, both as onos and marine. Back on subject, I just did a game where I was a cara onos and I defended cargo 4 times, the marines werent total retards, werent the highest skill in the world, but a gorge and DC in the hive kept me alive to keep comming back. (BTW they had heavys AND Jps)... thanks to SOF (it was a SC/DC 2 hive) I was able to keep track of them, but it boiled down to knowing when to back off and wait for some skulks to assist, I think with all my inane babbling I'm saying.
Aliens REQUIRE TEAMWORK AND THEY WILL WIN, THEY ARE STRONGER IN ALOT OF AREAS.
Edit: I must be diseased or something... alotv people seem to like me as comm, and I never can get away from a game without it at least being 30 minutes long.... is there something wrong with me?
First week of college anyone? I'm sure you remember parts it. Now try to remember your 43th week of college. Would you go and say "zomg my school started to suxor" ?
Please, stop telling yourself 1.04 had more epic games, because it's all in a perspective point of view. Maybe for you, it seemed like there were epic games. Maybe if you were to play them all over again, you would notice that the epic games weren't all that epic.
And yes, the game was somewhat changed to have shorter games, that's just how the developers wanted it. There's still loads of strategy involved, even if it's not as obvious as it used to be. Please, it's not all that bad.
It's not "good memories" or whatever, it's fact. Games would regularly go on so long that the servers couldn't any longer take the load and would crash. It happened over and over again thanks to (if I remember rightly) lots of buildings being created and destroyed and recreated.
These games *were* epic, the servers didn't crash until about 2 hours of game playing, so you always knew an epic game for that simple fact! Now you're lucky to get one game out of ten that lasts longer than half an hour...just because that's the way the game developers want it (if they really do) doesn't mean some of us have to particularly like it.
I myself like a good mix, and really, don't care. I like this quick way more though, because there isn't as much waiting. You don't gotta wait what seems like hours for a hive, or MT, or phase gates. Everything is simple, quick- only enough time to think of what to do next, and even that you don't have as much time for. In the process you get a condensed game that is 100% action packed, instead of it being spread quite a bit.
I rarely used to "wait around" in epic games, and in those I did they weren't what I'd call "epic", but "drawn out". Perhaps we're getting the idea's confused here? An epic game is one that goes on for ages, hours even, and it never stops, the game swings back and forth in favour of each side as localised battles are won and lost...marines tech up to the highest level, but somehow manage to get beaten down by the aliens so much they can't afford to do it again right away...so the aliens get their fades and onoses...and the marines battle back and kill them down too. These epic games were games where I believed the game was balanced, and happened mostly 2.1ish..they were 100% action and they happened a lot. They caused me much coursework grief!
However the drawn out games of the 1.0 versions...they weren't epic...they were games where one sid had a map locked down and either didn't have the skill to finish off what little base the other side had, or didn't have the compassion to end it quickly.
I'm not saying short games will forever go. Sometimes it will simply happen that one side is better than the other, and that's fair enough, and mostly fun. Right now though it's not about who's better in playing the game. I know I've seen games in previous beta's for V3 where one way or another teams with plenty of skill have looked like amatures because of balance issues. As I say in other threads...when you can't even go one on one with a marine in the first 30 seconds of the game because his range is infinately more useful, it's not fun.
I do agree with some comments that it *is* progression in that people now know winning strats more and such...but these winning strats were known in 2.xx, and that didn't stop the epics from happening, nor the fun being had...so why the difference now?
You guys put a little too much stock (not aiming this at you Quaunaut, but at others from other threads) in fobbing off what people actually want (see the long game thread) as something akin to rose tinted glasses.
Oh, and to end off, if you want short games, I believe that is what Combat should be for. I also know this is difference of opinion, but I don't believe classic should be a short game. I'd never dream of playing 10 minute maps on CS or DoD, so why would I on NS?
combat = short , constant action , kill kill kill haray for killing, and then kill some more
classic = longer , more thought out, not so much non stop actions but deffinitly intense battles, and require more stradagy. I know the learning curve for NS is already pretty big, but we have combat now as a good stepping stone for people to learn on and then graduate to classic.
so I'd like to see longer games cuz I'm a big fan of the back and forth struggles
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Not to start a flame on this thread or anything....
CO_ is whats different, co attracted a totally different mentality into the already existant NS community. Prolly off a bit in that statement, but not by much I think.
I think there is something to be said for the immense change that happened to skulks. In that period away went the skulks that were feared, in came aliens that weren't really a match for marines one on one...I think that changed the make-up of the game, and it's not really recovered since. Probably won't do unless the weakness of skulks IN REAL GAME TERMS compared to their marine counterparts are taken in to account and changed. That in turn will give marines a reason to stick in groups properly once more, and not go ramboing for RT's. Take out RFK as well and you have a marine team that must focus on getting RT's, not camping up and feeding off of an alien stave off.
The people that join the game now through CO are just like we were back in the day from what I've seen, filled with the same misconceptions on how to play and lack of skills...but even they seem to enjoy the longer games when they occur.
There are comebacks for marines. There are no comebacks for aliens. The dev team needs to decide if balance and fun is more important than an average of 15 minutes per game, because if game time matters more, I'm not going to waste my time.
NS classis, as an alien, is horrific. If you play on a regular pub (don't bring up clan play or pugs, since they are both just advanced and more organized forms of public play), the server size of a decent game is usually 16-20, with the alien res rate coming in slloooooowwwlllyyyyyyyyy. The first few minutes of the game are all rush for the aliens, since they know the marine commander is probably already researching MT and armor 1.
They have to get that fade, or else all is lost! A fade really needs DC's to be effective, which means most game are locked in at DMS, meaning there is no need for the marines to change their winning strategy. Unless you have a god fade, your team is done. <b>That's not strategy, that's coersion by a development team trying to control a game to the point of a stranglehold. </b>
The current version blows, but I like the gameplay elements of combat enough to keep playing, and I play classic because I'm in search of the amazing epic game which is so very rare in NS 3 bx.
People like NS 3 because the animations, models, sprites are all great, the maps are amazing, the game is far less buggy, and the version is built on two previous game versions that gave NS a great name.
Instead of forcing game time down everyone's throat, why don't you try to set the game apart from other FPS around the world? The previous major versions of NS had the formula, which is why I came back to NS, and which is why last summer holds the record for most people checking out the forum. The previous versions hit a nerve; every game was fresh, new, interesting, and fun in a different way, even with the unbalanced feel. The game was so more dynamic than anything else out, and NS still has the possibility of making a real killing.
This version of NS is watered down crap. If combat did not exist, I bet half the playerbase would hardly play NS at all. It's called feedback, and you're getting it.
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Natural-Selection isn’t balanced for teams larger than six players. On large servers alien will suffer on painful slow resource flow. Because of this fades and the 2nd hive are coming very late in the game comparing to a 6vs6 game.
There’s a nice plugin to “fix” this issue: <a href='http://www.modns.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=568' target='_blank'>http://www.modns.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=568</a>
The plugin modifies the resource flow for alien to a fixed value. On my 20 slot server its set on 7 so 10 alien will have a resource flow like if there were only 7 alien in the team. It’s now tested for 3 month and work pretty well.