I think some of these posts have really hit on the problems. Stop the marines rushing in the first few mins and you get some good games. Marines should have to work for map control and not just rush.
I play on the Fr31ns server and they run the the unchained chambers plugin.
The games are less static and more dynamic. Aliens don't have to hope for the middle hive anymore, as they can expand to any hive freely with the use of unchained chambers.
The only problem with it I've seen is that mid game sensory is really dominant, because instead of getting movement upgrades fades get focus, and still have the ability to protect hives via movement chamber. Kind of a nasty situation.
Overall I feel that with unchained chambers (with a lot of testing) would be a great addition to the strategy and tactics of the game. It would break the D-M-S, and incorporate actually strategy into the alien game. So now the aliens have a choice of strategy, AND tactics.
Allowing the aliens to incorporate more strategy will bring more dyanamic play which allows for more creativity on both sides.
<!--QuoteBegin-Firewater+Sep 13 2004, 07:15 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Firewater @ Sep 13 2004, 07:15 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I play on the Fr31ns server and they run the the unchained chambers plugin.
The games are less static and more dynamic. Aliens don't have to hope for the middle hive anymore, as they can expand to any hive freely with the use of unchained chambers.
The only problem with it I've seen is that mid game sensory is really dominant, because instead of getting movement upgrades fades get focus, and still have the ability to protect hives via movement chamber. Kind of a nasty situation.
Overall I feel that with unchained chambers (with a lot of testing) would be a great addition to the strategy and tactics of the game. It would break the D-M-S, and incorporate actually strategy into the alien game. So now the aliens have a choice of strategy, AND tactics.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I just have to ask, how did the early game go? From the servers with unchained that I've played on, it just exponentially boosted the alien mid game where they had they had the res for the chambers. However it was still a test of if the aliens could keep their rts long enough in the first few minutes. Admittedly the servers weren't of a particularly high skill, or teamwork, but still. I'd love to hear how these unchained chamber games play out <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Aliens REQUIRE TEAMWORK AND THEY WILL WIN, THEY ARE STRONGER IN ALOT OF AREAS.
Edit: I must be diseased or something... alotv people seem to like me as comm, and I never can get away from a game without it at least being 30 minutes long.... is there something wrong with me? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think Axel really hit the spot with those two things first:
Aliens are more versatile, powerful and flexible than Marines. Thing that completely wrecks those are the facts that with dcs your stuck to very few strats AND without dcs your screwed because you would need to keep your rt`s and ONE fade alive
Lets imagine these:
Normal game on average pub (~20), you tell them that you make mc and tell your team: someone saves for hive 3/4 guys make rt, one keeps res for rines surprise(what ever it is) ,one fade and you make MC/SC what happens:
1. Half of the team is OMG OMG MC NUB, rest have read and are following your orders quite well they usually make rts because everyone knows that everything else than dc needs really that res flow
2. You find your rt`s attacked you drop from 5 rts to maybe two or three and find those another part of team that didnt listen camping somewhere getting fade and propably telling rines you got mc/sc ---> with sc sure 2 hive lock-down
3. Now the real problem comes alive no one saved for hive! you see 3/2 fades going down after those few shotties given. You find your team spended their res on rt wich have gone down or to dead fades
4. waiting or no waiting depends on the comm bg/ag/gg
What went wrong?
FIRST: Your exotic non-dc was instantly told to rines by those not-so-expierienced player, this means that you lost the biggest thing: SURPRISE AND COMM FINDING HAVE COMPLETELY WRONG TACTIC. with non-told sc you can cover huge part of the maps and make terrific thing around sc JUST if it is kept your secret.
SECOND: The alien res flow is wrecked over 16/18 players meaning that with already 10 ppl team you just cant have 2 or more fade savers or you will be missing all those ocs/dcs. fact is that if you lose 3 fades in 6/8mins it means 150res... it is HUGE think 150 res.....
Now to the second quote:
No boosting but I am good comm. and iv`e been around 1.04 seeing all strats from wep3 hmg rushes to armr3/welder sg rush
Fact just is that commander can allmost cetainly decide how the game is gonna flow. I could easily make 9/10 2 hives reloc and win, what it needs is rush pg get 4 rts and that it.....
Or
Then i can go the regual thingy teching normally (armor 1, wep 1, pg/adv and so on)
OR
Here the power of the comm is truly shown up:
You can go some bit more exotic tactic and really hand those shotties before fades and rush armor3 work from there or then you can loosily lock chockepoint and lose it (really comm has the power to keep it not the rines ...)
To the actual quote:
Axel people really like you because you are familiar to all the things, but you aren`t that crucially good comm that you could have the power to dominate the map. Those 30min games, usually are those best ones. You propably make some silly mistakes or something and you just cant make the final push.
And why the NS is at the moment rine biased is the reason that rines dominate early games vanilla skulks just wont have the power to run throu that corridor but also the fact that one rine can do xx rts at start and 1 alien can make 1 rt.....
<!--QuoteBegin-Firewater+Sep 13 2004, 01:15 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Firewater @ Sep 13 2004, 01:15 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Allowing the aliens to incorporate more strategy will bring more dyanamic play which allows for more creativity on both sides.
i <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Did Firewater die at the computer? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I'm glad that generally this is getting more actual positive discussion than cheap fob off's, I think Firewater's post helps show that even those more deeply involved in the game have at least a degree of feeling like I do that the strategy element is lacking in some form.
It's also good to see illuminex is in agreement on the whole "regimented" side of the game, and the set plays. Aliens must get res, they must try to stop marine res, they must have skilled fades, and they must get two hives, all within the space of 10 minutes, when at 10 minutes, we actually start to see marines looking to start the siege rush or the JP rush on the first hive...hell, even HA train stomp! The marine game is just ending when the alien game (in upgrade terms at the very least) hasn't even picked up speed.
Just played a few games, yet again showing how marines can play perfectly fine on their own, ramboing, and aliens MUST team up to do anything. Such a mirror image of the old days where games were fun. Hardly a coincidence is it?
As I said...used to be that aliens were doing the "rushing", and marines had to tech up, and keep battling for little ground.
That has now evolved in to marines doing the rushing, with the aliens trying to "tech up" and battling to keep ground.
Unfortunately, with this change in style, someone forgot to take away the balance that meant marines still actually only need 3 RT's to keep up with Aliens, meaning that when they regularly have 5 or 6, they are completely outstripping their enemies, while the aliens are opperating half as effectively as they used to. Not to mention the problem that RFK gives to the whole situation.
I wouldn't mind it, but with marines rushing and having map dominance, aliens are more often than not fighting for their first hive, and rarely get to use their second hive if they're on a loss, if it's even built. Might as well completely forget the third hive, it doesn't even need to be locked down by marines because to be honest, the game will be over by the time you have the res to get it!
This doesn't make sense, at least one of the hives is almost completely wasted in every game. If things were back to the old way of thing, it'd be back to the situation where 2 hives certainly don't mean a win, and the true battles are over the third hives. This can only be done, though, if aliens can infest the map and still end up losing by a good teched up marine team. If nothing else, this means that the average game will use ALL of the elements that make it up...rather than what we have right now with in (at best) half the games; one life form never used, one life form rarely used, third hive abilities never used, one chamber set never used and second hive abilities and another chamber set rarely used.
I had two more games today finish UNDER 10 minutes. Perhaps the aliens were less skilled than marines, but if they were significantly less skilled you'd expect an end to come quicker so that the map could be replayed with more even teams.
Yeah your right slizer, at certain points I'll even ignore droping a PG to a lone marine. #1 due to no res to spare because doing upgrades, #2 worried more about locking down the one hive we have, no loosing all my res in a rush. I hate it when people wont stay in base while I slowly upgrade them with hmgs/jps-heavys. Its the most fustrating thing watching a group of 3 marines with hmgs get lured out by an onos, yes they kill the freaking onos... but then 3 fades rape them on the way back reloading... duuuuurrrrr. I've seen even the most skilled players lured by that repeatedly. Augh.
BTW niaccurshi... the second hive aquisition is a necissary part of the game. due to second hive traits are what combat the later rollout of marine tech, (lvl3 weps more than likely, protolab, and turret farms) You have leap to close distance fast (hmgs mainly, but other uses to) You have bilebomb (gorges to take out structures quickly, mainly TFs so the skulks can get in but other uses to) Umbra for the lerk, (protect those higher lifeforms and even skulks survive a bit longer against higher weps) meta, so the fade can rush in/out. Stomp, to keep a group of marines from pushing on the location. Those are things early on taht would be overpowered, but are necissary for a win midgame. Aliens can START to become overpowered 3rd hive. However, if marines kept good resflow, they should have hmgs-shotties/heavys+jps. I've seen marines do 3rd hive comebacks... of course it did require a majority of skill on the marine part, not very often seen in pubs.
But thats my point? a 2 hive alien team is needed to tackle marines properly. If aliens get two hives and control the map somewhat, while marines lock down a hive...we have a situation. Either the aliens win out and get the third hive, marines are on the slope towards death then, and the aliens just need to take the MS, wherever that is...or the aliens don't hold off marines other attacks, lose one of their hives and go on the slipery slope to death...marines only having one hive to take out. Seems like a much more sensible way of doing things while including as many elements of the game as possible.
Those games, of course, where marines fight back to destroy a third hive, and a second, only to get it all destroyed again and lose...they are the best games. <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
As niac said the problem is that marines have got advantage while aliens haven`t. Thing are like this: <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif' /><!--endemo--> can do more than <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif' /><!--endemo--> .......
Theres definitely something wrong with that, i would say to boost skulks quite a bit to get the first 5min something else than rines capping all but hive rt....
But also have you noticed how thw average server size has got little bit up after each patch?
I think the most serious flaw of the alien team is in the early game, namely in the fight for res. Marines spend the first minutes of the game splitting up and capping as many nodes as possible as fast as possible, which they can do very well since one decent marine is a good match for at least 2 skulks. Unlike aliens, they can cover themselves and eachother when they build nodes. And if they happen to lose one, the central res pool means they can replace it no problem. Skulks are too weak to effectively defend their res, and the loss of a couple nodes in the early game is a crippling defeat since aliens need so many nodes to have a reasonable res flow(and this is in moderate-sized games). The end result is that aliens spend the first 4+ minutes struggling to keep their heads above water until they can get a Fade to reclaim their territory.
The majority of marine victories, from what I've seen, are the result of their earlygame advantage. The very large amount of res they earn(they only need 2-3 nodes to function, but regularly get 5 or more) gives them a big headstart in tech. Against a competent marine team, every alien victory is a comeback. The early, mid and late game of both teams should be balanced with one another, assuming relatively equal growth; I don't see it as good balance that strength in one counterbalances weakness in the other.
<!--QuoteBegin-niaccurshi+Sep 14 2004, 07:03 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (niaccurshi @ Sep 14 2004, 07:03 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> But thats my point? a 2 hive alien team is needed to tackle marines properly. If aliens get two hives and control the map somewhat, while marines lock down a hive...we have a situation. Either the aliens win out and get the third hive, marines are on the slope towards death then, and the aliens just need to take the MS, wherever that is...or the aliens don't hold off marines other attacks, lose one of their hives and go on the slipery slope to death...marines only having one hive to take out. Seems like a much more sensible way of doing things while including as many elements of the game as possible.
Those games, of course, where marines fight back to destroy a third hive, and a second, only to get it all destroyed again and lose...they are the best games. <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> ^ Evidently you miss the nature of the game. The whole nature of it is the struggle of marine vs alien on different "worlds". Marines get droped off on an area the aliens are starting to establish and thier job is to eliminate them... With just one hive you might as well just have a co_ map... The struggle for the 3rd hive aquisition vs lockdown is where the real game begins!!!! That is why you have the same opinion I do about those games. In my opinion thats where the RTS and FPS strats come together. (Of course assuming you have a PG, if not your skewed).
To address a few other things, I think the ideas with NS have goten to convoluted with"OMG LETS FAWKIN BUFF *inserteamhere* UP A BIT"... no... that isnt the answer, there are pros and conns to both marine and alien. DEAL WITH THEM THINKOF HOW TO IMPROVE. Not some blantant "OMG BUFF TEH HEALTH" BS.
<!--QuoteBegin-Zek+Sep 14 2004, 04:28 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zek @ Sep 14 2004, 04:28 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> What is this thread even about, anyway? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Confusing isn't it <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/nerd-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> This thread was split from some guy saying turrets are too powerful, apparantly I said something that Nemesis liked.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The majority of marine victories, from what I've seen, are the result of their earlygame advantage. The very large amount of res they earn(they only need 2-3 nodes to function, but regularly get 5 or more)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hooray! Someone else sees it <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
A Solution would be to make the Skulks as powerful as they were in 1.04 This would end the early Game expansion from the Rines till the first Armor Upgrade. Also Ramboing Marines in the early Game would have no chance which is good in my eyes
From what I've seen while playing, in scrim/matches and public servers, the difference between an alien victory or marine victory is the marine advancement level vs alien advancement level.
If aliens are able to get two fades or even one decent fade going with the appropriate DC chambers before marines can get atleast armor 1 and weapon 1 + SGs, marines will be at a serious advantage since that fade can either tear up marine squads who are trying to obtain/hold either RTs or the unclaimed hives.
If the marines are able to kill a fade early in the game, the alien advancement level drops drastically, their ability to harrass and push back marines has been destroyed.
If the marines are able to kill the 2nd hive while building or even after it goes up, it pushes the alien advancement level quite a bit since they lose their 2nd hive ability as well as the possibility of having a 2nd upgrade, not to mention faster spawns.
If the aliens can either destroy certain structures in marine base, especially while they are upgrading for example an armory while it's upgrading, then marine advancement gets delayed quite a bit.
If aliens constantly munch down marine nodes, it really slows down the marine tech level increase, therefore giving aliens the edge in developing a higher advancement level. This works vice versa as well.
What helps each side in obtaining an advantage in advancement levels is obviously kills and RTs. Once the difference in advancement levels are too far apart, it's almost impossible for the losing side to regain the advantange or even the playing field.
One of the biggest Problems is the Weak Skulk. Heh most of the game time your are Skulk but he is the weakest thing in NS. Skulks must be a little bit stronger in the early Game to prevent the Marines from expansion and shoul get a boost with each Hive thats build
...I have no problems holding a marine or two back... I do say meebe up the armor by 10 and by 20 (to 50) with cara lvl3... but that skulk by no means is weak... and compaired to the other higher lifeforms... NAH FREAKING DUH HES WEAK HE COSTS 0 RES PERIOD.... *cough*
A vanilla Skulk is no threat to an vanilla Marine. This is the reason why so many marines Rambo and expand so fast in the early Game.
As said before its not very diffcult for an Marine to Hold one Position in the early Game against skulks and this is the Main problem. Marine should expand slow and the aliens fast.
I believe the skulk is weaker, perhaps not as much as certain people...but here's my reasoning for it anyway...
Marines in 1.00 and 1.04 weren't exactly used to being marines. They were used to CS and recoil and not having little dog like creatures creeping up on them, hiding from them, or biting at their heels. Back then skulks and marines were even...perhaps it was luck, perhaps it was judgement, or maybe both, but the marines and skulks at base level were pretty damn balanced. A skulk couldn't outdo a marine at really long distances, but one on one a skulk could close a mid distance gap and kill that marine. This, in the game, worked...with skulks being just an ickle bit better, but generally balanced.
Then marines got good, people started to know the maps, people started to know the hiding spots, the tricks of skulks. Marines started to camp back more and move in groups more, skulks started to die more.
THEN the devs fixed the hitbox, but didn't really do anything to improve the skulks stats in relation to the new accuracy of the hitbox.
Marines then kept getting better in player skill, and the game started to change into one where no longer could a skulk contend at mid distance, and barely can contend right up close against the quick aiming marines around now.
Skulks have got weaker because they haven't really changed! While marines of the world have got to know the game, and the maps, and the tricks...skulks had all their tricks and trump cards played early. Now skulks suffer because while marines have got better, skulks were already at the pinnicle of their abilities, and so marines at base level have become much better than skulks.
I'm really knackered, so that might all have come across as rubbish <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-niaccurshi+Sep 14 2004, 06:08 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (niaccurshi @ Sep 14 2004, 06:08 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I believe the skulk is weaker, perhaps not as much as certain people...but here's my reasoning for it anyway...
Marines in 1.00 and 1.04 weren't exactly used to being marines. They were used to CS and recoil and not having little dog like creatures creeping up on them, hiding from them, or biting at their heels. Back then skulks and marines were even...perhaps it was luck, perhaps it was judgement, or maybe both, but the marines and skulks at base level were pretty damn balanced. A skulk couldn't outdo a marine at really long distances, but one on one a skulk could close a mid distance gap and kill that marine. This, in the game, worked...with skulks being just an ickle bit better, but generally balanced.
Then marines got good, people started to know the maps, people started to know the hiding spots, the tricks of skulks. Marines started to camp back more and move in groups more, skulks started to die more.
THEN the devs fixed the hitbox, but didn't really do anything to improve the skulks stats in relation to the new accuracy of the hitbox.
Marines then kept getting better in player skill, and the game started to change into one where no longer could a skulk contend at mid distance, and barely can contend right up close against the quick aiming marines around now.
Skulks have got weaker because they haven't really changed! While marines of the world have got to know the game, and the maps, and the tricks...skulks had all their tricks and trump cards played early. Now skulks suffer because while marines have got better, skulks were already at the pinnicle of their abilities, and so marines at base level have become much better than skulks.
I'm really knackered, so that might all have come across as rubbish <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I think you summed it up 100%.
Can I tell a little story about skulks and shotties? Yes? Okay:
Epidemic and HR(HoloRoom?) were scrimming, first game Epi (including me) were aliens, Hr took rines. They dropped 2 ips, a armory spammed shotties and rushed our hive. We were in our early game expansion mode, hive was pretty undefended, since we figured we would meet the marines and could warn th team about it.
Basically, we had Sat Com hive on Tanith, they rush us through chemical transport. One of my teammates die and call out that their entire team is moving on our hive. Everyone rushes there, but they are too far away from the doors for us to do anything. We throw our skulkie selves at them and die, cause shotties hurt. Next comes the humiliation of spawncamping and a 5 minute loss. It was too early for us to evolve into something good.
A 5% speed increase would be nice, or invulnerablity for a second after spawning, but in that second you cannot attack.
<!--QuoteBegin-niaccurshi+Sep 14 2004, 07:08 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (niaccurshi @ Sep 14 2004, 07:08 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> THEN the devs fixed the hitbox, but didn't really do anything to improve the skulks stats in relation to the new accuracy of the hitbox.
Marines then kept getting better in player skill, and the game started to change into one where no longer could a skulk contend at mid distance, and barely can contend right up close against the quick aiming marines around now.
Skulks have got weaker because they haven't really changed! While marines of the world have got to know the game, and the maps, and the tricks...skulks had all their tricks and trump cards played early. Now skulks suffer because while marines have got better, skulks were already at the pinnicle of their abilities, and so marines at base level have become much better than skulks. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually... Skulk HP was nerfed after their hitboxes were fixed because they were made smaller, vertically at least, and thus supposedly harder to hit. Maybe that's true for marines who knew where the skulk hitbox used to be, but now that everybody just aims at the model it's probably easier to hit them than it was before.
Yes 80% of the marine winnings are due the first 5 minutes where alien try
desperatilyy(ffs im losing my english...) hold 3/4 rts while rines expand to whole map due rambo`s.....
Boosting skulk back to 1.04 would at least sound neat....
Another problem is as said all maps are known very well these days. All best camp places are allways checked ---> dead. Maybe darken up all ceilings? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Thats not true, I've had very skilled players forget to check some obvious places, and choose the obscure *common* skulking places. Then WHAM they are dead... its all a matter of thinking outside the box.
<!--QuoteBegin-Axel Stone+Sep 15 2004, 09:58 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Axel Stone @ Sep 15 2004, 09:58 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Thats not true, I've had very skilled players forget to check some obvious places, and choose the obscure *common* skulking places. Then WHAM they are dead... its all a matter of thinking outside the box.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Sure you should nail them when they have no armour, but the times and places you will be able to do this are limited. As soon as they get a1 even an ambush becomes very hard, this is where you start to need 2 or more skulks per marine.
Even if you killed half the marines on their first expansion, they'll be back stronger and probably together very quickly, picking up where they left off. Also.. spawn camping can become a big problem, 2 marines can rather too easily make their way to a hive killing anything in their way, and then procede to start spawn camping <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Skulk hp boost would really help put the early game into balence, while keeping mid and endgame balance. Being able to stop the marines early dominance means aliens won't be continually just holding on, but fighting back.
I've been thinking about this problem. I think it comes down to a cost:effecitveness ratio.
Let's say you gorge and drop 3 OCs and a DC (50 res total) Is that as effective as a fade? No, because a marine can drop an OC from around a corner with a LMG.
Let's say you go gorge and drop hive. Is that as effective as a fade? Depending on the skill level of the players, maybe. Bile bombing gorges can ruin a hive lockdown. Leaping skulks can ruin early game marines. But shotguns destroy them, so you have to have a decent team. Fades are relatively safe against shotguns, so long as you hit and run.
I'm not saying that everyone should fade, quite on the contrary. I'm just saying that the alien team needs to have an increase of power level and a balancing of the rescost and effectiveness. This would HOPEFULLY allow aliens a chance to win if they're behind which would result in more "epic" games
I don't have any bright ideas on how to achieve this goal... Maybe dropping the cost of OCs (and making it so they can shoot anything that can see even the smallest sliver of them. That would rock).
Alien res system is kinda annoying right now too...
PS: niaccurshi summed up the problems with skulks. They need to be more powerful
Comments
The games are less static and more dynamic. Aliens don't have to hope for the middle hive anymore, as they can expand to any hive freely with the use of unchained chambers.
The only problem with it I've seen is that mid game sensory is really dominant, because instead of getting movement upgrades fades get focus, and still have the ability to protect hives via movement chamber. Kind of a nasty situation.
Overall I feel that with unchained chambers (with a lot of testing) would be a great addition to the strategy and tactics of the game. It would break the D-M-S, and incorporate actually strategy into the alien game. So now the aliens have a choice of strategy, AND tactics.
Allowing the aliens to incorporate more strategy will bring more dyanamic play which allows for more creativity on both sides.
i
The games are less static and more dynamic. Aliens don't have to hope for the middle hive anymore, as they can expand to any hive freely with the use of unchained chambers.
The only problem with it I've seen is that mid game sensory is really dominant, because instead of getting movement upgrades fades get focus, and still have the ability to protect hives via movement chamber. Kind of a nasty situation.
Overall I feel that with unchained chambers (with a lot of testing) would be a great addition to the strategy and tactics of the game. It would break the D-M-S, and incorporate actually strategy into the alien game. So now the aliens have a choice of strategy, AND tactics.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I just have to ask, how did the early game go? From the servers with unchained that I've played on, it just exponentially boosted the alien mid game where they had they had the res for the chambers. However it was still a test of if the aliens could keep their rts long enough in the first few minutes. Admittedly the servers weren't of a particularly high skill, or teamwork, but still. I'd love to hear how these unchained chamber games play out <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
JP rush, bugs, etc. Those all were crap bigtime. Yet stuff as the one gorge owned.
Aliens REQUIRE TEAMWORK AND THEY WILL WIN, THEY ARE STRONGER IN ALOT OF AREAS.
Edit: I must be diseased or something... alotv people seem to like me as comm, and I never can get away from a game without it at least being 30 minutes long.... is there something wrong with me? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think Axel really hit the spot with those two things first:
Aliens are more versatile, powerful and flexible than Marines. Thing that completely wrecks those are the facts that with dcs your stuck to very few strats AND without dcs your screwed because you would need to keep your rt`s and ONE fade alive
Lets imagine these:
Normal game on average pub (~20), you tell them that you make mc and tell your team: someone saves for hive 3/4 guys make rt, one keeps res for rines surprise(what ever it is) ,one fade and you make MC/SC what happens:
1. Half of the team is OMG OMG MC NUB, rest have read and are following your orders quite well they usually make rts because everyone knows that everything else than dc needs really that res flow
2. You find your rt`s attacked you drop from 5 rts to maybe two or three and find those another part of team that didnt listen camping somewhere getting fade and propably telling rines you got mc/sc ---> with sc sure 2 hive lock-down
3. Now the real problem comes alive no one saved for hive! you see 3/2 fades going down after those few shotties given. You find your team spended their res on rt wich have gone down or to dead fades
4. waiting or no waiting depends on the comm bg/ag/gg
What went wrong?
FIRST: Your exotic non-dc was instantly told to rines by those not-so-expierienced player, this means that you lost the biggest thing: SURPRISE AND COMM FINDING HAVE COMPLETELY WRONG TACTIC. with non-told sc you can cover huge part of the maps and make terrific thing around sc JUST if it is kept your secret.
SECOND: The alien res flow is wrecked over 16/18 players meaning that with already 10 ppl team you just cant have 2 or more fade savers or you will be missing all those ocs/dcs. fact is that if you lose 3 fades in 6/8mins it means 150res... it is HUGE think 150 res.....
Now to the second quote:
No boosting but I am good comm. and iv`e been around 1.04 seeing all strats from wep3 hmg rushes to armr3/welder sg rush
Fact just is that commander can allmost cetainly decide how the game is gonna flow. I could easily make 9/10 2 hives reloc and win, what it needs is rush pg get 4 rts and that it.....
Or
Then i can go the regual thingy teching normally (armor 1, wep 1, pg/adv and so on)
OR
Here the power of the comm is truly shown up:
You can go some bit more exotic tactic and really hand those shotties before fades and rush armor3 work from there or then you can loosily lock chockepoint and lose it (really comm has the power to keep it not the rines ...)
To the actual quote:
Axel people really like you because you are familiar to all the things, but you aren`t that crucially good comm that you could have the power to dominate the map. Those 30min games, usually are those best ones. You propably make some silly mistakes or something and you just cant make the final push.
And why the NS is at the moment rine biased is the reason that rines dominate early games vanilla skulks just wont have the power to run throu that corridor but also the fact that one rine can do xx rts at start and 1 alien can make 1 rt.....
This should to be webbed or at least noticed very well....
i <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Did Firewater die at the computer? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I'm glad that generally this is getting more actual positive discussion than cheap fob off's, I think Firewater's post helps show that even those more deeply involved in the game have at least a degree of feeling like I do that the strategy element is lacking in some form.
It's also good to see illuminex is in agreement on the whole "regimented" side of the game, and the set plays. Aliens must get res, they must try to stop marine res, they must have skilled fades, and they must get two hives, all within the space of 10 minutes, when at 10 minutes, we actually start to see marines looking to start the siege rush or the JP rush on the first hive...hell, even HA train stomp! The marine game is just ending when the alien game (in upgrade terms at the very least) hasn't even picked up speed.
As I said...used to be that aliens were doing the "rushing", and marines had to tech up, and keep battling for little ground.
That has now evolved in to marines doing the rushing, with the aliens trying to "tech up" and battling to keep ground.
Unfortunately, with this change in style, someone forgot to take away the balance that meant marines still actually only need 3 RT's to keep up with Aliens, meaning that when they regularly have 5 or 6, they are completely outstripping their enemies, while the aliens are opperating half as effectively as they used to. Not to mention the problem that RFK gives to the whole situation.
I wouldn't mind it, but with marines rushing and having map dominance, aliens are more often than not fighting for their first hive, and rarely get to use their second hive if they're on a loss, if it's even built. Might as well completely forget the third hive, it doesn't even need to be locked down by marines because to be honest, the game will be over by the time you have the res to get it!
This doesn't make sense, at least one of the hives is almost completely wasted in every game. If things were back to the old way of thing, it'd be back to the situation where 2 hives certainly don't mean a win, and the true battles are over the third hives. This can only be done, though, if aliens can infest the map and still end up losing by a good teched up marine team. If nothing else, this means that the average game will use ALL of the elements that make it up...rather than what we have right now with in (at best) half the games; one life form never used, one life form rarely used, third hive abilities never used, one chamber set never used and second hive abilities and another chamber set rarely used.
I had two more games today finish UNDER 10 minutes. Perhaps the aliens were less skilled than marines, but if they were significantly less skilled you'd expect an end to come quicker so that the map could be replayed with more even teams.
BTW niaccurshi... the second hive aquisition is a necissary part of the game. due to second hive traits are what combat the later rollout of marine tech, (lvl3 weps more than likely, protolab, and turret farms) You have leap to close distance fast (hmgs mainly, but other uses to) You have bilebomb (gorges to take out structures quickly, mainly TFs so the skulks can get in but other uses to) Umbra for the lerk, (protect those higher lifeforms and even skulks survive a bit longer against higher weps) meta, so the fade can rush in/out. Stomp, to keep a group of marines from pushing on the location. Those are things early on taht would be overpowered, but are necissary for a win midgame. Aliens can START to become overpowered 3rd hive. However, if marines kept good resflow, they should have hmgs-shotties/heavys+jps. I've seen marines do 3rd hive comebacks... of course it did require a majority of skill on the marine part, not very often seen in pubs.
Those games, of course, where marines fight back to destroy a third hive, and a second, only to get it all destroyed again and lose...they are the best games. <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Thing are like this:
<!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif' /><!--endemo--> can do more than <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif' /><!--endemo--> .......
Theres definitely something wrong with that, i would say to boost skulks quite a bit to get the first 5min something else than rines capping all but hive rt....
But also have you noticed how thw average server size has got little bit up after each patch?
I think the most serious flaw of the alien team is in the early game, namely in the fight for res. Marines spend the first minutes of the game splitting up and capping as many nodes as possible as fast as possible, which they can do very well since one decent marine is a good match for at least 2 skulks. Unlike aliens, they can cover themselves and eachother when they build nodes. And if they happen to lose one, the central res pool means they can replace it no problem. Skulks are too weak to effectively defend their res, and the loss of a couple nodes in the early game is a crippling defeat since aliens need so many nodes to have a reasonable res flow(and this is in moderate-sized games). The end result is that aliens spend the first 4+ minutes struggling to keep their heads above water until they can get a Fade to reclaim their territory.
The majority of marine victories, from what I've seen, are the result of their earlygame advantage. The very large amount of res they earn(they only need 2-3 nodes to function, but regularly get 5 or more) gives them a big headstart in tech. Against a competent marine team, every alien victory is a comeback. The early, mid and late game of both teams should be balanced with one another, assuming relatively equal growth; I don't see it as good balance that strength in one counterbalances weakness in the other.
Those games, of course, where marines fight back to destroy a third hive, and a second, only to get it all destroyed again and lose...they are the best games. <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
^ Evidently you miss the nature of the game. The whole nature of it is the struggle of marine vs alien on different "worlds". Marines get droped off on an area the aliens are starting to establish and thier job is to eliminate them... With just one hive you might as well just have a co_ map... The struggle for the 3rd hive aquisition vs lockdown is where the real game begins!!!! That is why you have the same opinion I do about those games. In my opinion thats where the RTS and FPS strats come together. (Of course assuming you have a PG, if not your skewed).
To address a few other things, I think the ideas with NS have goten to convoluted with"OMG LETS FAWKIN BUFF *inserteamhere* UP A BIT"... no... that isnt the answer, there are pros and conns to both marine and alien. DEAL WITH THEM THINKOF HOW TO IMPROVE. Not some blantant "OMG BUFF TEH HEALTH" BS.
Confusing isn't it <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/nerd-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> This thread was split from some guy saying turrets are too powerful, apparantly I said something that Nemesis liked.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The majority of marine victories, from what I've seen, are the result of their earlygame advantage. The very large amount of res they earn(they only need 2-3 nodes to function, but regularly get 5 or more)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hooray! Someone else sees it <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
This would end the early Game expansion from the Rines till the first Armor Upgrade. Also Ramboing Marines in the early Game would have no chance which is good in my eyes
If aliens are able to get two fades or even one decent fade going with the appropriate DC chambers before marines can get atleast armor 1 and weapon 1 + SGs, marines will be at a serious advantage since that fade can either tear up marine squads who are trying to obtain/hold either RTs or the unclaimed hives.
If the marines are able to kill a fade early in the game, the alien advancement level drops drastically, their ability to harrass and push back marines has been destroyed.
If the marines are able to kill the 2nd hive while building or even after it goes up, it pushes the alien advancement level quite a bit since they lose their 2nd hive ability as well as the possibility of having a 2nd upgrade, not to mention faster spawns.
If the aliens can either destroy certain structures in marine base, especially while they are upgrading for example an armory while it's upgrading, then marine advancement gets delayed quite a bit.
If aliens constantly munch down marine nodes, it really slows down the marine tech level increase, therefore giving aliens the edge in developing a higher advancement level. This works vice versa as well.
What helps each side in obtaining an advantage in advancement levels is obviously kills and RTs. Once the difference in advancement levels are too far apart, it's almost impossible for the losing side to regain the advantange or even the playing field.
Heh most of the game time your are Skulk but he is the weakest thing in NS.
Skulks must be a little bit stronger in the early Game to prevent the Marines from expansion and shoul get a boost with each Hive thats build
This is the reason why so many marines Rambo and expand so fast in the early Game.
As said before its not very diffcult for an Marine to Hold one Position in the early Game against skulks and this is the Main problem. Marine should expand slow and the aliens fast.
Marines in 1.00 and 1.04 weren't exactly used to being marines. They were used to CS and recoil and not having little dog like creatures creeping up on them, hiding from them, or biting at their heels. Back then skulks and marines were even...perhaps it was luck, perhaps it was judgement, or maybe both, but the marines and skulks at base level were pretty damn balanced. A skulk couldn't outdo a marine at really long distances, but one on one a skulk could close a mid distance gap and kill that marine. This, in the game, worked...with skulks being just an ickle bit better, but generally balanced.
Then marines got good, people started to know the maps, people started to know the hiding spots, the tricks of skulks. Marines started to camp back more and move in groups more, skulks started to die more.
THEN the devs fixed the hitbox, but didn't really do anything to improve the skulks stats in relation to the new accuracy of the hitbox.
Marines then kept getting better in player skill, and the game started to change into one where no longer could a skulk contend at mid distance, and barely can contend right up close against the quick aiming marines around now.
Skulks have got weaker because they haven't really changed! While marines of the world have got to know the game, and the maps, and the tricks...skulks had all their tricks and trump cards played early. Now skulks suffer because while marines have got better, skulks were already at the pinnicle of their abilities, and so marines at base level have become much better than skulks.
I'm really knackered, so that might all have come across as rubbish <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Marines in 1.00 and 1.04 weren't exactly used to being marines. They were used to CS and recoil and not having little dog like creatures creeping up on them, hiding from them, or biting at their heels. Back then skulks and marines were even...perhaps it was luck, perhaps it was judgement, or maybe both, but the marines and skulks at base level were pretty damn balanced. A skulk couldn't outdo a marine at really long distances, but one on one a skulk could close a mid distance gap and kill that marine. This, in the game, worked...with skulks being just an ickle bit better, but generally balanced.
Then marines got good, people started to know the maps, people started to know the hiding spots, the tricks of skulks. Marines started to camp back more and move in groups more, skulks started to die more.
THEN the devs fixed the hitbox, but didn't really do anything to improve the skulks stats in relation to the new accuracy of the hitbox.
Marines then kept getting better in player skill, and the game started to change into one where no longer could a skulk contend at mid distance, and barely can contend right up close against the quick aiming marines around now.
Skulks have got weaker because they haven't really changed! While marines of the world have got to know the game, and the maps, and the tricks...skulks had all their tricks and trump cards played early. Now skulks suffer because while marines have got better, skulks were already at the pinnicle of their abilities, and so marines at base level have become much better than skulks.
I'm really knackered, so that might all have come across as rubbish <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think you summed it up 100%.
Epidemic and HR(HoloRoom?) were scrimming, first game Epi (including me) were aliens, Hr took rines. They dropped 2 ips, a armory spammed shotties and rushed our hive. We were in our early game expansion mode, hive was pretty undefended, since we figured we would meet the marines and could warn th team about it.
Basically, we had Sat Com hive on Tanith, they rush us through chemical transport. One of my teammates die and call out that their entire team is moving on our hive. Everyone rushes there, but they are too far away from the doors for us to do anything. We throw our skulkie selves at them and die, cause shotties hurt. Next comes the humiliation of spawncamping and a 5 minute loss. It was too early for us to evolve into something good.
A 5% speed increase would be nice, or invulnerablity for a second after spawning, but in that second you cannot attack.
Marines then kept getting better in player skill, and the game started to change into one where no longer could a skulk contend at mid distance, and barely can contend right up close against the quick aiming marines around now.
Skulks have got weaker because they haven't really changed! While marines of the world have got to know the game, and the maps, and the tricks...skulks had all their tricks and trump cards played early. Now skulks suffer because while marines have got better, skulks were already at the pinnicle of their abilities, and so marines at base level have become much better than skulks. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually... Skulk HP was nerfed after their hitboxes were fixed because they were made smaller, vertically at least, and thus supposedly harder to hit. Maybe that's true for marines who knew where the skulk hitbox used to be, but now that everybody just aims at the model it's probably easier to hit them than it was before.
Yes 80% of the marine winnings are due the first 5 minutes where alien try
desperatilyy(ffs im losing my english...) hold 3/4 rts while rines expand to whole map due rambo`s.....
Boosting skulk back to 1.04 would at least sound neat....
Another problem is as said all maps are known very well these days. All best camp places are allways checked ---> dead. Maybe darken up all ceilings? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Sure you should nail them when they have no armour, but the times and places you will be able to do this are limited. As soon as they get a1 even an ambush becomes very hard, this is where you start to need 2 or more skulks per marine.
Even if you killed half the marines on their first expansion, they'll be back stronger and probably together very quickly, picking up where they left off. Also.. spawn camping can become a big problem, 2 marines can rather too easily make their way to a hive killing anything in their way, and then procede to start spawn camping <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Skulk hp boost would really help put the early game into balence, while keeping mid and endgame balance. Being able to stop the marines early dominance means aliens won't be continually just holding on, but fighting back.
Let's say you gorge and drop 3 OCs and a DC (50 res total) Is that as effective as a fade? No, because a marine can drop an OC from around a corner with a LMG.
Let's say you go gorge and drop hive. Is that as effective as a fade? Depending on the skill level of the players, maybe. Bile bombing gorges can ruin a hive lockdown. Leaping skulks can ruin early game marines. But shotguns destroy them, so you have to have a decent team. Fades are relatively safe against shotguns, so long as you hit and run.
I'm not saying that everyone should fade, quite on the contrary. I'm just saying that the alien team needs to have an increase of power level and a balancing of the rescost and effectiveness. This would HOPEFULLY allow aliens a chance to win if they're behind which would result in more "epic" games
I don't have any bright ideas on how to achieve this goal... Maybe dropping the cost of OCs (and making it so they can shoot anything that can see even the smallest sliver of them. That would rock).
Alien res system is kinda annoying right now too...
PS: niaccurshi summed up the problems with skulks. They need to be more powerful