<!--QuoteBegin-Cronos+Oct 4 2004, 04:24 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cronos @ Oct 4 2004, 04:24 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> To put that further into perspective, that outmodes the entire energy production of mankind thousands of times over quite easily.
As I said earlier, the sea has ASSLOADS of energy bottled up.
I cant find any figures on how long it would take for the earths oceans to radiate out all that energy but it will certainly take FAR longer then the mere minutes in which some grossly misinformed people have been stating. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> An approximatimation of the figure you would be looking for is REALLY REALLY FRIGGIN FAST!
Leave a swimming pool heated to 40C out for two days in the winter and it will start to get frozen over. Same prinicple applies here, just with a LOT bigger swimming pool, and an absolutle zero winter night. The Ocean drops in temperature locally overnight every night, and in that case it is still being heated on the other side of the world. With no heating whatsoever and a quicky decaying atmosphere the surface of the ocean wouldn't last more than a few weeks at very best. It would be a long time before all water on earth was compleatly frozen, but the outside cooling factor would be, in the end, greater than the internal warming factor of the earth.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The earths core is heated by virtue of a rather large lump of uranium in the core. Because this lump is rather large, the sustained naturally occuring nuclear reaction that takes place heats the core and the surrounding mantle, and by virtue of sheer mass, it would take a good deal of time to fizzle out.
The core stays hot for at least another billion years.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm not disagreeing with you, and I am under the impression that the internal heat radiation of the earth whould last a long time too, but I was under the impression that it was friction caused by varioations in the internal movements of the earth that caused the heating, not uranium. I'm just wondering if you can get me a reliable info sourse because I am interested to know what the heatsourse really is.
Thats one internet source, but my main source was the New Scientist issue on the 7th August 2004, the article was aptly entitled "Fire Down Below".
Unfortunately their online archive requires that you subscribe to them and I dont have that privelege.
Still, a nuclear core explains why there is enough power to heat the earth to it's current degree, maintain a magnetic field and even explains magnetic field fluctuations/oscillations due to the changes in the energy output of such a "Georeactor".
It wouldnt be the first time a naturally occuring nuclear reactor has been discovered either. Apparently one formed about 1 - 2 billion years ago in africa, though I cant remember the name of it readily or how exactly it formed.
Google should yield a wealth of information.
Also, please note that I am in no way insinuating that the earths core will save us from freezing to death or stop the earths oceans from icing over except at the hydrothermal vents. I was merely addressing someone earlier who mentioned the earths core freezing because the sun went out.
Still, it would be helpful to know the rate at which water releases it's energy to a rapidly cooling atmoshere (preferably in joules/second).
It might be an interesting question to pose to my old physics teacher. I'll have to see him some time...
In all honesty, an absolute zero cool acctually would push down far enough to eventually cool the earth's surface level hydro thermal vents. Realisticly it could probably acctually push the solid layers of the earths outer core several hundered miles deeper than they currently are, given enough time...
<!--QuoteBegin-Cronos+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cronos)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->STOP BEING STUPID.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Read the discussion forum rules, thank you.
Apparently the rules are not the only thing you failed to read. The reference (although not mine) to the 8 minute time was the estimated survival time of humanity, not the time for the oceans to freeze over.
Also, the water on open seas is not at a temperature of 20 degrees celsius. It's significantly colder.
Third, in the event of a suddenly disappearing sun, we are not talking temperatures of -200 degrees celsius. More likely the temperature is closer to -250 to -265 degrees celsius. Possibly lower.
<!--QuoteBegin-Cronos+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cronos)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The earths core is heated by virtue of a rather large lump of uranium in the core. Because this lump is rather large, the sustained naturally occuring nuclear reaction that takes place heats the core and the surrounding mantle, and by virtue of sheer mass, it would take a good deal of time to fizzle out.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Say what?
Referring Wikipedia + numerous Google articles: <i>"The core is divided into two parts, a solid inner core with a radius of ~1250 km and a liquid outer core extending beyond it to a radius of ~3500 km. The inner core is generally believed to be solid and composed primarily of iron and some nickel. Some have argued that the inner core may be in the form of a single iron crystal. The outer core surrounds the inner core and is believed to be composed of liquid iron mixed with liquid nickel and trace amounts of lighter elements."</i>
<i>"...while other dense elements, such as lead and uranium, are either too rare to be significant or tend to bind to lighter elements and thus remain in the crust..."</i>
I remind you once more not to call anyone stupid ever again.
I dont see how every human would suddenly die the second the sun failed to show up. There would be a period of "WTH?!" and "OMGZ!", followed possibly by looting (flashlights and batteries etc) but in all likelihood humanity will die out when the world ices over, rather then immediately after the sun stops shining.
Also, please note that I cited an AVERAGE of 20 degrees for all the liquid water on earth. This averages out the hot zones, the cold zones, and everything in between. It's an approximation, one that should be acceptable unless your willing to undergo the complexity of calculating localised temperature variations and running simulations on which portions would freeze up first and/or give up their energy at a faster/slower rate then others.
Taken as an AVERAGE. The earths oceans have a lot of energy locked up as thermal heat. That thermal heat bleeds out into the atmoshphere, keeping it in a gaseous and somewhat livable state for longer then if the oceans did not do this. Thusly, the oceans extend the time in which humans would survive a freezing earth, hence answering the question at hand.
I apologise for my outburst earlier, I have nuked that portion of my post myself to stay in accordance with the rules. I have read them, I merely forgot them in that moment. To err is human, after all.
Cronos, <i>please</i>. Don't try to sound scientific in a thread which has as much to do with science as a hollywood film.
I assume you're not a mermaid? So if you want to live on the earths surface and not in the ocean, I suggest you think about your idea again <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I apply my knowledge about the situation to further my viewpoint and I'm "Trying to sound scientific"? I supply figures, calculations to back my view, and har solid facts, I present it in a fairly clear way explaining what the calculations meant and put it into context using examples.
Why the hell would I want to try to sound scientific? It's fact. I dont know what your trying to insinuate.
It may be improbably that the sun would suddenly stop radiating energy but it is a useful scenario to help understand conservation of energy and how important the sun is to life on earth.
Please, do explain your post to me because there is a lot of that I dont understand in the context of my replies.
Ok so let me help you out: How does it matter how much energy the oceans can store or even radiate? If you want to live on the earths surface and not in the water itself you should rather think about how fast the <i>surface</i> will cooldown. The oceans do not help. You could just as well alculate the energy storage of the whole earth itself and it would give you an enermous amount of stored energy, but this isn't related to the 'problem' here.
Anyway, this is kinda silly from either perpective
The oceans lock up a lot of energy. That energy is radiated into the atmosphere and keeps the earth relatively warmer then if this did not occur. They would not ice over quickly for some time without solar input, at the very least they would extend the survival time for higher life forms by a week.
The oceans do count for something, moreso then the landmasses of the earth do by virtue of waters high specific heat and large amount of energy that they store due to that fact.
The amount of energy they radiate per second determines how soon they freeze over. The more they radiate, the sooner it is likely for them to freeze up, though the air stays a bit warm. If they radiate very little heat, the air freezes and the water develops an ice scab agains the hard vacuum that eventually forms and gradually freezes down to the ocean floor, not that it makes too much difference to all the dead people.
Interesting little thing though. Once the earth snowballs, even if the sun were reintroduced, the earth would stay a snowball unless there were a significant volcanic upheaval.
tankefuglOne Script To Rule Them All...Trondheim, NorwayJoin Date: 2002-11-14Member: 8641Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
This is a very interesting concept. I recomend reading Manifold: Time (don't quite remember the author .. was it Baxter?). It holds some quite interesting ideas on how to survive not only on a planet but in a universe where in time all stars will fail.
The thing is; there are several ways to harness energy, and with advanced enough technology, we'd be able to use all forms of energy for our survival till the particles that form the base of us disintegrate because of their expired lifespan.
We're still quite a long way from this with our current tech, though. I hope it won't happen any time soon <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-EEK+Oct 3 2004, 01:57 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (EEK @ Oct 3 2004, 01:57 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Barring a tremendous explosion (the likes of which would annihilate the solar system. Not that our sun is capable of that anyway) it would 'cool' over a period of millions of years. Photons are formed in the core and travel through the radiative zone of the sun. This part of the sun is so thick, photons travel only about 10 centimeters before being scattered. All this light escapes in about... 10 million years, give or take a few thousand. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> So wait, what are you saying? That there is 10 million years worth of light trapped within the sun that would still be there to rely upon after the Sun stopped generating light? Even if this was true, unless an object of the same mass was there to keep the light from escaping all at once, it would do just that, right?
<!--QuoteBegin-Cold-NiTe+Oct 4 2004, 11:36 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cold-NiTe @ Oct 4 2004, 11:36 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-EEK+Oct 3 2004, 01:57 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (EEK @ Oct 3 2004, 01:57 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Barring a tremendous explosion (the likes of which would annihilate the solar system. Not that our sun is capable of that anyway) it would 'cool' over a period of millions of years. Photons are formed in the core and travel through the radiative zone of the sun. This part of the sun is so thick, photons travel only about 10 centimeters before being scattered. All this light escapes in about... 10 million years, give or take a few thousand. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> So wait, what are you saying? That there is 10 million years worth of light trapped within the sun that would still be there to rely upon after the Sun stopped generating light? Even if this was true, unless an object of the same mass was there to keep the light from escaping all at once, it would do just that, right? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's exactly what I'm saying. The sun wouldn't 'go dark'. It wouldn't change at all. Not in 8 minutes, not in 8 hours, not in 8 centuries. For all we know, the sun could have stopped creating photons last week.
<!--QuoteBegin-EEK+Oct 4 2004, 12:41 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (EEK @ Oct 4 2004, 12:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Cold-NiTe+Oct 4 2004, 11:36 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cold-NiTe @ Oct 4 2004, 11:36 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-EEK+Oct 3 2004, 01:57 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (EEK @ Oct 3 2004, 01:57 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Barring a tremendous explosion (the likes of which would annihilate the solar system. Not that our sun is capable of that anyway) it would 'cool' over a period of millions of years. Photons are formed in the core and travel through the radiative zone of the sun. This part of the sun is so thick, photons travel only about 10 centimeters before being scattered. All this light escapes in about... 10 million years, give or take a few thousand. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> So wait, what are you saying? That there is 10 million years worth of light trapped within the sun that would still be there to rely upon after the Sun stopped generating light? Even if this was true, unless an object of the same mass was there to keep the light from escaping all at once, it would do just that, right? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's exactly what I'm saying. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Doesn't change the fact that it is irrelevent to this discussion as it contridicts our predefined scenario... We all know it isn't going to happen, we really don't need more proof.
Well it doesn't matter that this whole discussion is irrelevent because only a handful of people know what the hell they're talking about, but technically the photons still escaping from the sun wouldn't 'dissapear' if the sun stopped producing light, therefore it's entirely relevant. Just because the scenario has been proven completely false doesn't mean that this factoid has no business in the thread. If there was a thread on powering cars with aluminum shavings, a chemical equation showing that aluminum would bond with exhaust or something would be entirely relevant. Just because it disproves a thread doesn't make it 'not allowed'.
The scenario as I understand it is that the sun suddenly goes dark. Escaping photons constitute light, and thus are irrellevent to this discussion, which I will agree with you is quite pointless. But that is the whole point, the discussion is just for fun (or maby to fule someones creativity tank for a good sci fi creative writing project)
What if the sun stopped producing light? Fine. If the sun stopped producing light, and MAGICALLY all the photons still in transit from the sun dissapeared too, everything would get very dead. I'm less worried about cold and global winter and more about what the sun itself is doing.
First of all, a bit of anatomy on stars.
Stars are powered by fusing hydrogen into helium. This produces a lot of energy, the majority of which escapes as the electromagnetic spectrum. This energy also is used to power the star's structure. Stars are so massive that they are actively pushed apart by their own reactions, but their weight is pulling them in. An equilibrium is reached where gravity and energy are counteracting forces.
When hydrogen fuels run too low to sustain the reaction, the star changes. Small stars (K, M) are not nearly massive enough to advance to the next step, but our star, a G-class yellow dwarf, is. These first few stars, once they've burned out their fuels, will slowly deplete and swell. This swelling will turn these dwarfs into red giant stars. The giant will begin releasing its outer layers into space, losing mass. Eventually the star has lost enough mass, has grown too big, and has nearly exhausted its nuclear fuel to the point where it cannot create the equilibrium required to counteract the force of its own gravity. The star will suddenly collapse into a white dwarf, which is roughly the size of earth. The white dwarf is usually a somewhat hot star (The average temperature being 10,000 K), and it will happily burn away over billions of years until it exhausts their fuel utterly and completely, leaving a cold, dead husk of a star.
Medium stars, (F, G) are massive enough to begin fusing helium into carbon and oxygen. Unfortunately this fusion takes three and four atoms of helium, so the reaction has a vastly shorter lifetime. At this point the star will have swelled, but not into a red giant. This reaction will burn away, and the star will then swell into a red giant. Were our sun to do this, it would engulf venus and mercury, blow the atmosphere off the earth, and boil all the oceans away. Then it will collapse into a white dwarf.
The Chandrasekhar limit states that stars more then 1.4 solar masses are too heavy to form white dwarfs. These stars shed their atmosphere as normal, then collapse into white dwarfs, and keep collapsing, until the neutrons inside them resist the gravitational pull. This forms a neutron star, a spinning radioactive husk. One teaspoon of a neutron star would weigh well over a million tons.
Larger stars (O, B, A) are so massive they can fuse the carbon and oxygen into silicon, sulfur, chromium, argon, and magnesium. This reaction is short, but not nearly as short as the final nuclear fuel: The fusion of those metals into heavy elements like iron. This is the second to last step in the reaction. The final phase is when the star violently collapses into a black hole in a supernova explosion. This explosion is the last fusion possible in the star - It turns all the heavy metals from the last fusion stage into heavier elements, which get scattered outwards.
So, what if our star, a G class yellow dwarf, was to suddenly and magically exhaust its nuclear fuel, and all the visible light from it was to dissapear?
Obviously, without the nuclear fuel, it will skip the red giant stage. So the earth is safe for now. The Sun would instantly smash into a white dwarf. Normally, the dwarf -> giant -> dwarf sequence will not produce any explosion. The process is gradual and slow. However, a complete collapse would in all likelyhood create a massive explosion. The outer part of the sun's atmosphere, the corona, the hottest part of the sun, every so often will release a CME (coronal mass ejection), an incredibly huge ball of plasma. Were the sun to completely collapse, the outer layers of the atmosphere (possibly including the chromosphere) would be released in all directions.
A CME large enough crushes and warps the earth's magnetic field, as well as creating massive electric distrubences, knocking out power and sattelites. A CME large enough will smash the magnetosphere to nearly nothing.
While this might sound impressive, about the worst it would do is knock out power all over the world. Back to the stone age. However, this would be little to what would likely follow next.
A sudden collapse of the sun, with the shedding of the atmosphere would also release a tremendous amount of radiation. Unfortunately for earth, the magnetic field and the ozone layer usually shields us from this radiation. In 1998, a magnetar (a very rare form of star) hit earth with a wave of gamma radiation. What did get in massively ionized the upper atmosphere.
A CME the size of the sun itself would knock the magnetosphere down to nearly nothing. Both before and after this CME hit earth (which might take a day or so. Real CMEs take about two to three days to reach earth. This is a bit different and the violent release of energy from a collapsing sun would probably give it a little oomph) radiation released from the sun will be hitting earth. Before the CME destroys the magnetic field, we'd be largely safe. Lots and lots of very pretty light effects. However, once the mother of all CMEs hits earth, the radiation would pretty much saturate everything. The ozone layer would stop a decent chunk of it, but not nearly enough to make much a difference. This is a STAR we're talking about.
I think it's safe to say that between the X-rays and Gamma-rays, there'd be very little left alive.
So, how long would we live if the sun stopped its nuclear reaction? I'd give it a day.
Alright. Since EEK as thuroughly pwned this scenerio, lets try something a little more like what (I think) the original poster's idea was: Lets say that some giant 1x4x9 black monoliths came together and formed a disc large enough to cast a shadow over the entire earth (A. C. Clark, 3001). Let us also say that the disc is in such an orbit as to continue to keep earth in the dark for all eternity, if nessesary, and for the sake of argument is also large enough to keep the moon dark durnig it's orbit as well. Now, given that no significant amount of sunlight will ever again reach the earth, how long would humanity survive?
tankefuglOne Script To Rule Them All...Trondheim, NorwayJoin Date: 2002-11-14Member: 8641Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited October 2004
That's the pessimistic view of it, EEK. Even though it was a good summary on our current knowledge on stars.
Let's take an optimistic approach and consider how we can shield or even (wow) prevent it from happening. If left alive for enough time, I believe humankind is capable of developing advanced enough technology to challenge the stars. I believe the more important question is: How long and how? And don't limit yourself by today's knowledge.
Edit: That was a perfect reforming of the original scenario, SkulkBait <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-SkulkBait+Oct 4 2004, 02:47 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SkulkBait @ Oct 4 2004, 02:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Alright. Since EEK as thuroughly pwned this scenerio, lets try something a little more like what (I think) the original poster's idea was: Lets say that some giant 1x4x9 black monoliths came together and formed a disc large enough to cast a shadow over the entire earth (A. C. Clark, 3001). Let us also say that the disc is in such an orbit as to continue to keep earth in the dark for all eternity, if nessesary, and for the sake of argument is also large enough to keep the moon dark durnig it's orbit as well. Now, given that no significant amount of sunlight will ever again reach the earth, how long would humanity survive? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Black monoliths? bah. Lets have something a bit more fun:
If the sun were to suddenly vanish we all know who is at fault <img src='http://www.tunl.duke.edu/images/burns-smithers.gif' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
Actually I think it'd be more fun if the sun were to literally just dissapear. I wonder what the planets would hit <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-EEK+Oct 4 2004, 04:18 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (EEK @ Oct 4 2004, 04:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Actually I think it'd be more fun if the sun were to literally just dissapear. I wonder what the planets would hit <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Maybe they'll all collide, due to the gravity force between them? Probably not, though. I have no idea.
Yes, my intention was to have people think about humanities technological advances, and whether or not they are advanced enough to sustain us should we lose our major power source.
I know the sun can't simple go out. Its simply not possible. But I'm asking you to think beyond that. Its a "It'll never happen, but what if..." thing.
On a side-note, it would make overclocking a whole lot easier.
<!--QuoteBegin-EEK+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (EEK)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Obviously, without the nuclear fuel, it will skip the red giant stage. So the earth is safe for now. The Sun would instantly smash into a white dwarf. Normally, the dwarf -> giant -> dwarf sequence will not produce any explosion. The process is gradual and slow. However, a complete collapse would in all likelyhood create a massive explosion. The outer part of the sun's atmosphere, the corona, the hottest part of the sun, every so often will release a CME (coronal mass ejection), an incredibly huge ball of plasma. Were the sun to completely collapse, the outer layers of the atmosphere (possibly including the chromosphere) would be released in all directions.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
this would take months. unless you "magically" replaced all the hydrogen/helium in the sun's core with iron or something, and then it'd collapse into a black hole, with a buttload of radiation released as it collapsed. Basically it would go type-1a supernova almost immediately, i'd give it a few days or maybe a week to go from iron star -> black hole. Needless to say this would irradiate the earth, blow away the atmosphere, possibly vaporize a good chunk of the side of earth that is facing towards the sun <b>*edit* i don't think it would completely vaporize earth, just because there isn't much mass in the outer layers of the sun, compared to normal type 1/2 supernovas */edit*.</b> The reason the dwarf->giant reaction happens is because of the backpressure caused by the hydrogen reaction failing: the core stops producing enough energy to counterbalance the weight of the solar atmosphere, and it crushes inwards. Eventually this crushing forces the atoms in the core so close that helium begins fusing (much higher temperatures needed for this reaction) at a noticeable rate. In our sun's mass range, this reaction produces enough energy to counteract the inwards crushing, and a "spring" effect is created. It takes millions of years to go from main stage -> initial crush -> giant.
Anyway, in the case of replacing the sun with an iron sphere of the same size, the core would immediately collapse (which is what i assume you're talking about), turn into a black hole over the course of, oh, maybe a few hours to a day. If you were to replace the sun with an iron sphere of equal mass, it might still collapse into a black hole, i'm not familiar with how much momentum of the collapsing iron affects the outcome - normally a large portion of the mass is blown off as a nova <b>*edit* (more specifically, mass ejection from an explosive core fusion reaction) -<a href='http://www.star.ucl.ac.uk/~cmj/thesis/node13.html#SECTION00461000000000000000' target='_blank'>during white dwarf formation</a>*/edit*</b>, or it could turn into a neutron star, and since the sun is spinning in our plane of orbit, it's safe to say that the earth might start getting x-rayed 200times a second (since neutron stars preserve angular momentum, oh yeah baby). If we survived the huge supernova and the iron and heavy elements bombarding us, then i think we can look forward to feeling like a take-n-bake chicken in the microwave.
If you were just talking about hollowing out the inner core of the sun...it'd collapse into a brown dwarf and blow off a good chunk of the mantle in a *edit* <b>normal nova ( from rapid accretion of the outer layers of the sun and subsequent explosive ignition of said layers*/edit*</b>) or possibly just lose it due to not having enough mass. at least that's what i think, since it wouldn't have enough mass to do anything. Then we'd just be sitting around with a big, glow-y version of jupiter. All the planets would quickly fly out of orbit and we'd possibly meet a chunk of the asteroid belt (or, if we're really unlucky, jupiter itself) after a few years).
This is actually pretty fun to think about.
anyway, CME's are really due to the sun's magnetic field pwning itself. this probably will be magnified during the collapse. it'll be super awesome. We could be getting a faceful of plasma which sets the atmosphere on fire <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> that'd be sweet. *edit* oops, i meant that it would suck. badly. for us.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Maybe they'll all collide, due to the gravity force between them? Probably not, though. I have no idea.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> nah, the relative velocities would be too high.
*edit*<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->On a side-note, it would make overclocking a whole lot easier. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
maybe then people would buy old AMD chips to warm themselves by <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Mantrid+Oct 4 2004, 05:20 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mantrid @ Oct 4 2004, 05:20 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Yes, my intention was to have people think about humanities technological advances, and whether or not they are advanced enough to sustain us should we lose our major power source.
I know the sun can't simple go out. Its simply not possible. But I'm asking you to think beyond that. Its a "It'll never happen, but what if..." thing.
On a side-note, it would make overclocking a whole lot easier. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> sorry for the double post, but i had to address this one.
dude, if we can't even fight off the zerg, how are we going to survive the sun blowing up /disappearing on us?
psshh. everyone knows that humanity's forte is killing stuff, not keeping each other alive. or maybe keeping each other alive by killing stuff.
<!--QuoteBegin-2_of_8+Oct 4 2004, 05:04 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (2_of_8 @ Oct 4 2004, 05:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-EEK+Oct 4 2004, 04:18 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (EEK @ Oct 4 2004, 04:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Actually I think it'd be more fun if the sun were to literally just dissapear. I wonder what the planets would hit <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Maybe they'll all collide, due to the gravity force between them? Probably not, though. I have no idea. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> They would all travel in a straight line tangent to their respective orbit around the Sun. Probably no collisions would happen unless the terrestrial planets were to travel through the asteroid belt.
I have NO IDEA at all what the HELL you are talking about in this thread but I'll give it a try ANYway...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-EEK+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (EEK)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Obviously, without the nuclear fuel, it will skip the red giant stage. So the earth is safe for now. The Sun would instantly smash into a white dwarf. Normally, the dwarf -> giant -> dwarf sequence will not produce any explosion. The process is gradual and slow. However, a complete collapse would in all likelyhood create a massive explosion. The outer part of the sun's atmosphere, the corona, the hottest part of the sun, every so often will release a CME (coronal mass ejection), an incredibly huge ball of plasma. Were the sun to completely collapse, the outer layers of the atmosphere (possibly including the chromosphere) would be released in all directions.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
this would take months. unless you "magically" replaced all the hydrogen/helium in the sun's core with iron or something, and then it'd collapse into a black hole, with a buttload of radiation released as it collapsed. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What would happen? What are you talking about? First of all, my entire situation relied on if the sun instantly ran out of nuclear fuel. I know damn well it takes millions of years for a star to swell into a giant and then collapse to a dwarf. What the hell are you talking about 'iron sphere'? The sun is incapable of fusing iron, or even fusing elements INTO iron.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Basically it would supernova almost immediately, i'd give it a few days or maybe a week to go from iron star -> black hole. Needless to say this would irradiate the earth, blow away the atmosphere, possibly vaporize a good chunk of the side of earth that is facing towards the sun.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If a giant star novaed, the core IS forming the black hole. The explosion IS the core collapsing, and all the energy blowing outward. It would take about two hours (in a supergiant star) for the shockwave to reach the surface of the collapsing star. Once that happens, all hell breaks loose. The earth wouldn't be irradiated. The atmosphere wouldn't blow away. It would probably destroy the solar system. Mercury, Venus, Earth, and Mars would be GONE. You have no idea how powerful these explosions are. 179,000 years ago a star supernovaed in the Large Magellenic Cloud. In 1987 the energy from this explosion reached earth. The light was visible during daytime for several days, and brighter then a full moon at night. I'd even imagine the gas giants wouldn't last very long. We're talking... about 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 MEGATONS of explosive force. THAT IS HUGE.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The reason the dwarf->giant reaction happens is because of the backpressure caused by the hydrogen reaction failing: the core stops producing enough energy to counterbalance the weight of the solar atmosphere, and it crushes inwards. Eventually this crushing forces the atoms in the core so close that helium begins fusing (much higher temperatures needed for this reaction) at a noticeable rate. In our sun's mass range, this reaction produces enough energy to counteract the inwards crushing, and a "spring" effect is created. It takes millions of years to go from main stage -> initial crush -> giant.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nearly a bullseye. The sun runs low on hydrogen and begins contracting and cooling. The reducing energy causes the star to begin falling inwards. As it falls, it heats up more. As you said, this temperature rise causes a temperature rise high enough to begin fusion in helium. This raises the temperature considerably, the outer layers expand. Pow. Red giant.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Anyway, in the case of replacing the sun with an iron sphere of the same size, the core would immediately collapse (which is what i assume you're talking about), turn into a black hole over the course of, oh, maybe a few hours to a day.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Uh... this is entirely dependent on exactly how dense your iron ball is...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If you were just talking about hollowing out the inner core of the sun...it'd collapse into a brown dwarf and blow off a good chunk of the mantle in a nova or possibly just lose it due to not having enough mass. at least that's what i think, since it wouldn't have enough mass to do anything. Then we'd just be sitting around with a big, glow-y version of jupiter. All the planets would quickly fly out of orbit and we'd possibly meet a chunk of the asteroid belt (or, if we're really unlucky, jupiter itself) after a few years).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, it wouldn't. Brown Dwarfs are 'stars' that were never massive enough to start fusion. If it was randomly hollowed it wouldn't... do much of anything. It'd probably just float off. It is a gas giant after all.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->*edit* anyway, CME's are really due to the sun's magnetic field pwning itself. this probably will be magnified during the collapse. it'll be super awesome. We could be getting a faceful of plasma which sets the atmosphere on fire <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> that'd be sweet. *edit* oops, i meant that it would suck. badly. for us.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
CME's are yes, caused by the internal magnetic forces of the sun spiraling out and releasing plasma, but I likened a mass shed of the sun's layers to a massive CME.
Comments
As I said earlier, the sea has ASSLOADS of energy bottled up.
I cant find any figures on how long it would take for the earths oceans to radiate out all that energy but it will certainly take FAR longer then the mere minutes in which some grossly misinformed people have been stating. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
An approximatimation of the figure you would be looking for is REALLY REALLY FRIGGIN FAST!
Leave a swimming pool heated to 40C out for two days in the winter and it will start to get frozen over. Same prinicple applies here, just with a LOT bigger swimming pool, and an absolutle zero winter night. The Ocean drops in temperature locally overnight every night, and in that case it is still being heated on the other side of the world. With no heating whatsoever and a quicky decaying atmosphere the surface of the ocean wouldn't last more than a few weeks at very best. It would be a long time before all water on earth was compleatly frozen, but the outside cooling factor would be, in the end, greater than the internal warming factor of the earth.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The earths core is heated by virtue of a rather large lump of uranium in the core. Because this lump is rather large, the sustained naturally occuring nuclear reaction that takes place heats the core and the surrounding mantle, and by virtue of sheer mass, it would take a good deal of time to fizzle out.
The core stays hot for at least another billion years.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not disagreeing with you, and I am under the impression that the internal heat radiation of the earth whould last a long time too, but I was under the impression that it was friction caused by varioations in the internal movements of the earth that caused the heating, not uranium. I'm just wondering if you can get me a reliable info sourse because I am interested to know what the heatsourse really is.
Thats one internet source, but my main source was the New Scientist issue on the 7th August 2004, the article was aptly entitled "Fire Down Below".
Unfortunately their online archive requires that you subscribe to them and I dont have that privelege.
Still, a nuclear core explains why there is enough power to heat the earth to it's current degree, maintain a magnetic field and even explains magnetic field fluctuations/oscillations due to the changes in the energy output of such a "Georeactor".
It wouldnt be the first time a naturally occuring nuclear reactor has been discovered either. Apparently one formed about 1 - 2 billion years ago in africa, though I cant remember the name of it readily or how exactly it formed.
Google should yield a wealth of information.
Also, please note that I am in no way insinuating that the earths core will save us from freezing to death or stop the earths oceans from icing over except at the hydrothermal vents. I was merely addressing someone earlier who mentioned the earths core freezing because the sun went out.
Still, it would be helpful to know the rate at which water releases it's energy to a rapidly cooling atmoshere (preferably in joules/second).
It might be an interesting question to pose to my old physics teacher. I'll have to see him some time...
{Edit}
Minor clarification
Read the discussion forum rules, thank you.
Apparently the rules are not the only thing you failed to read. The reference (although not mine) to the 8 minute time was the estimated survival time of humanity, not the time for the oceans to freeze over.
Also, the water on open seas is not at a temperature of 20 degrees celsius. It's significantly colder.
Third, in the event of a suddenly disappearing sun, we are not talking temperatures of -200 degrees celsius. More likely the temperature is closer to -250 to -265 degrees celsius. Possibly lower.
<!--QuoteBegin-Cronos+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cronos)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The earths core is heated by virtue of a rather large lump of uranium in the core. Because this lump is rather large, the sustained naturally occuring nuclear reaction that takes place heats the core and the surrounding mantle, and by virtue of sheer mass, it would take a good deal of time to fizzle out.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Say what?
Referring Wikipedia + numerous Google articles:
<i>"The core is divided into two parts, a solid inner core with a radius of ~1250 km and a liquid outer core extending beyond it to a radius of ~3500 km. The inner core is generally believed to be solid and composed primarily of iron and some nickel. Some have argued that the inner core may be in the form of a single iron crystal. The outer core surrounds the inner core and is believed to be composed of liquid iron mixed with liquid nickel and trace amounts of lighter elements."</i>
<i>"...while other dense elements, such as lead and uranium, are either too rare to be significant or tend to bind to lighter elements and thus remain in the crust..."</i>
I remind you once more not to call anyone stupid ever again.
I dont see how every human would suddenly die the second the sun failed to show up. There would be a period of "WTH?!" and "OMGZ!", followed possibly by looting (flashlights and batteries etc) but in all likelihood humanity will die out when the world ices over, rather then immediately after the sun stops shining.
Also...
<a href='http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2003/12/031215072752.htm' target='_blank'>Read. My. Link. Please.</a>
Also, please note that I cited an AVERAGE of 20 degrees for all the liquid water on earth. This averages out the hot zones, the cold zones, and everything in between. It's an approximation, one that should be acceptable unless your willing to undergo the complexity of calculating localised temperature variations and running simulations on which portions would freeze up first and/or give up their energy at a faster/slower rate then others.
Taken as an AVERAGE. The earths oceans have a lot of energy locked up as thermal heat. That thermal heat bleeds out into the atmoshphere, keeping it in a gaseous and somewhat livable state for longer then if the oceans did not do this. Thusly, the oceans extend the time in which humans would survive a freezing earth, hence answering the question at hand.
I apologise for my outburst earlier, I have nuked that portion of my post myself to stay in accordance with the rules. I have read them, I merely forgot them in that moment. To err is human, after all.
I assume you're not a mermaid? So if you want to live on the earths surface and not in the ocean, I suggest you think about your idea again <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Why the hell would I want to try to sound scientific? It's fact. I dont know what your trying to insinuate.
It may be improbably that the sun would suddenly stop radiating energy but it is a useful scenario to help understand conservation of energy and how important the sun is to life on earth.
Please, do explain your post to me because there is a lot of that I dont understand in the context of my replies.
Anyway, this is kinda silly from either perpective
The oceans do count for something, moreso then the landmasses of the earth do by virtue of waters high specific heat and large amount of energy that they store due to that fact.
The amount of energy they radiate per second determines how soon they freeze over. The more they radiate, the sooner it is likely for them to freeze up, though the air stays a bit warm. If they radiate very little heat, the air freezes and the water develops an ice scab agains the hard vacuum that eventually forms and gradually freezes down to the ocean floor, not that it makes too much difference to all the dead people.
Interesting little thing though. Once the earth snowballs, even if the sun were reintroduced, the earth would stay a snowball unless there were a significant volcanic upheaval.
Jupiter emits more energy than it receives from the sun.
The thing is; there are several ways to harness energy, and with advanced enough technology, we'd be able to use all forms of energy for our survival till the particles that form the base of us disintegrate because of their expired lifespan.
We're still quite a long way from this with our current tech, though. I hope it won't happen any time soon <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
So wait, what are you saying? That there is 10 million years worth of light trapped within the sun that would still be there to rely upon after the Sun stopped generating light? Even if this was true, unless an object of the same mass was there to keep the light from escaping all at once, it would do just that, right?
So wait, what are you saying? That there is 10 million years worth of light trapped within the sun that would still be there to rely upon after the Sun stopped generating light? Even if this was true, unless an object of the same mass was there to keep the light from escaping all at once, it would do just that, right? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's exactly what I'm saying. The sun wouldn't 'go dark'. It wouldn't change at all. Not in 8 minutes, not in 8 hours, not in 8 centuries. For all we know, the sun could have stopped creating photons last week.
So wait, what are you saying? That there is 10 million years worth of light trapped within the sun that would still be there to rely upon after the Sun stopped generating light? Even if this was true, unless an object of the same mass was there to keep the light from escaping all at once, it would do just that, right? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's exactly what I'm saying. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Doesn't change the fact that it is irrelevent to this discussion as it contridicts our predefined scenario... We all know it isn't going to happen, we really don't need more proof.
First of all, a bit of anatomy on stars.
Stars are powered by fusing hydrogen into helium. This produces a lot of energy, the majority of which escapes as the electromagnetic spectrum. This energy also is used to power the star's structure. Stars are so massive that they are actively pushed apart by their own reactions, but their weight is pulling them in. An equilibrium is reached where gravity and energy are counteracting forces.
When hydrogen fuels run too low to sustain the reaction, the star changes. Small stars (K, M) are not nearly massive enough to advance to the next step, but our star, a G-class yellow dwarf, is. These first few stars, once they've burned out their fuels, will slowly deplete and swell. This swelling will turn these dwarfs into red giant stars. The giant will begin releasing its outer layers into space, losing mass. Eventually the star has lost enough mass, has grown too big, and has nearly exhausted its nuclear fuel to the point where it cannot create the equilibrium required to counteract the force of its own gravity. The star will suddenly collapse into a white dwarf, which is roughly the size of earth. The white dwarf is usually a somewhat hot star (The average temperature being 10,000 K), and it will happily burn away over billions of years until it exhausts their fuel utterly and completely, leaving a cold, dead husk of a star.
Medium stars, (F, G) are massive enough to begin fusing helium into carbon and oxygen. Unfortunately this fusion takes three and four atoms of helium, so the reaction has a vastly shorter lifetime. At this point the star will have swelled, but not into a red giant. This reaction will burn away, and the star will then swell into a red giant. Were our sun to do this, it would engulf venus and mercury, blow the atmosphere off the earth, and boil all the oceans away. Then it will collapse into a white dwarf.
The Chandrasekhar limit states that stars more then 1.4 solar masses are too heavy to form white dwarfs. These stars shed their atmosphere as normal, then collapse into white dwarfs, and keep collapsing, until the neutrons inside them resist the gravitational pull. This forms a neutron star, a spinning radioactive husk. One teaspoon of a neutron star would weigh well over a million tons.
Larger stars (O, B, A) are so massive they can fuse the carbon and oxygen into silicon, sulfur, chromium, argon, and magnesium. This reaction is short, but not nearly as short as the final nuclear fuel: The fusion of those metals into heavy elements like iron. This is the second to last step in the reaction. The final phase is when the star violently collapses into a black hole in a supernova explosion. This explosion is the last fusion possible in the star - It turns all the heavy metals from the last fusion stage into heavier elements, which get scattered outwards.
So, what if our star, a G class yellow dwarf, was to suddenly and magically exhaust its nuclear fuel, and all the visible light from it was to dissapear?
Obviously, without the nuclear fuel, it will skip the red giant stage. So the earth is safe for now. The Sun would instantly smash into a white dwarf. Normally, the dwarf -> giant -> dwarf sequence will not produce any explosion. The process is gradual and slow. However, a complete collapse would in all likelyhood create a massive explosion. The outer part of the sun's atmosphere, the corona, the hottest part of the sun, every so often will release a CME (coronal mass ejection), an incredibly huge ball of plasma. Were the sun to completely collapse, the outer layers of the atmosphere (possibly including the chromosphere) would be released in all directions.
A CME large enough crushes and warps the earth's magnetic field, as well as creating massive electric distrubences, knocking out power and sattelites. A CME large enough will smash the magnetosphere to nearly nothing.
While this might sound impressive, about the worst it would do is knock out power all over the world. Back to the stone age. However, this would be little to what would likely follow next.
A sudden collapse of the sun, with the shedding of the atmosphere would also release a tremendous amount of radiation. Unfortunately for earth, the magnetic field and the ozone layer usually shields us from this radiation. In 1998, a magnetar (a very rare form of star) hit earth with a wave of gamma radiation. What did get in massively ionized the upper atmosphere.
A CME the size of the sun itself would knock the magnetosphere down to nearly nothing. Both before and after this CME hit earth (which might take a day or so. Real CMEs take about two to three days to reach earth. This is a bit different and the violent release of energy from a collapsing sun would probably give it a little oomph) radiation released from the sun will be hitting earth. Before the CME destroys the magnetic field, we'd be largely safe. Lots and lots of very pretty light effects. However, once the mother of all CMEs hits earth, the radiation would pretty much saturate everything. The ozone layer would stop a decent chunk of it, but not nearly enough to make much a difference. This is a STAR we're talking about.
I think it's safe to say that between the X-rays and Gamma-rays, there'd be very little left alive.
So, how long would we live if the sun stopped its nuclear reaction? I'd give it a day.
Let's take an optimistic approach and consider how we can shield or even (wow) prevent it from happening. If left alive for enough time, I believe humankind is capable of developing advanced enough technology to challenge the stars. I believe the more important question is: How long and how? And don't limit yourself by today's knowledge.
Edit: That was a perfect reforming of the original scenario, SkulkBait <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Black monoliths? bah. Lets have something a bit more fun:
If the sun were to suddenly vanish we all know who is at fault
<img src='http://www.tunl.duke.edu/images/burns-smithers.gif' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
Maybe they'll all collide, due to the gravity force between them?
Probably not, though. I have no idea.
I know the sun can't simple go out. Its simply not possible. But I'm asking you to think beyond that. Its a "It'll never happen, but what if..." thing.
On a side-note, it would make overclocking a whole lot easier.
this would take months. unless you "magically" replaced all the hydrogen/helium in the sun's core with iron or something, and then it'd collapse into a black hole, with a buttload of radiation released as it collapsed. Basically it would go type-1a supernova almost immediately, i'd give it a few days or maybe a week to go from iron star -> black hole. Needless to say this would irradiate the earth, blow away the atmosphere, possibly vaporize a good chunk of the side of earth that is facing towards the sun <b>*edit* i don't think it would completely vaporize earth, just because there isn't much mass in the outer layers of the sun, compared to normal type 1/2 supernovas */edit*.</b> The reason the dwarf->giant reaction happens is because of the backpressure caused by the hydrogen reaction failing: the core stops producing enough energy to counterbalance the weight of the solar atmosphere, and it crushes inwards. Eventually this crushing forces the atoms in the core so close that helium begins fusing (much higher temperatures needed for this reaction) at a noticeable rate. In our sun's mass range, this reaction produces enough energy to counteract the inwards crushing, and a "spring" effect is created. It takes millions of years to go from main stage -> initial crush -> giant.
Anyway, in the case of replacing the sun with an iron sphere of the same size, the core would immediately collapse (which is what i assume you're talking about), turn into a black hole over the course of, oh, maybe a few hours to a day. If you were to replace the sun with an iron sphere of equal mass, it might still collapse into a black hole, i'm not familiar with how much momentum of the collapsing iron affects the outcome - normally a large portion of the mass is blown off as a nova <b>*edit* (more specifically, mass ejection from an explosive core fusion reaction) -<a href='http://www.star.ucl.ac.uk/~cmj/thesis/node13.html#SECTION00461000000000000000' target='_blank'>during white dwarf formation</a>*/edit*</b>, or it could turn into a neutron star, and since the sun is spinning in our plane of orbit, it's safe to say that the earth might start getting x-rayed 200times a second (since neutron stars preserve angular momentum, oh yeah baby). If we survived the huge supernova and the iron and heavy elements bombarding us, then i think we can look forward to feeling like a take-n-bake chicken in the microwave.
If you were just talking about hollowing out the inner core of the sun...it'd collapse into a brown dwarf and blow off a good chunk of the mantle in a *edit* <b>normal nova ( from rapid accretion of the outer layers of the sun and subsequent explosive ignition of said layers*/edit*</b>) or possibly just lose it due to not having enough mass. at least that's what i think, since it wouldn't have enough mass to do anything. Then we'd just be sitting around with a big, glow-y version of jupiter. All the planets would quickly fly out of orbit and we'd possibly meet a chunk of the asteroid belt (or, if we're really unlucky, jupiter itself) after a few years).
This is actually pretty fun to think about.
anyway, CME's are really due to the sun's magnetic field pwning itself. this probably will be magnified during the collapse. it'll be super awesome. We could be getting a faceful of plasma which sets the atmosphere on fire <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> that'd be sweet. *edit* oops, i meant that it would suck. badly. for us.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Maybe they'll all collide, due to the gravity force between them?
Probably not, though. I have no idea.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
nah, the relative velocities would be too high.
*edit*<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->On a side-note, it would make overclocking a whole lot easier.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
maybe then people would buy old AMD chips to warm themselves by <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I know the sun can't simple go out. Its simply not possible. But I'm asking you to think beyond that. Its a "It'll never happen, but what if..." thing.
On a side-note, it would make overclocking a whole lot easier. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
sorry for the double post, but i had to address this one.
dude, if we can't even fight off the zerg, how are we going to survive the sun blowing up /disappearing on us?
psshh. everyone knows that humanity's forte is killing stuff, not keeping each other alive. or maybe keeping each other alive by killing stuff.
Maybe they'll all collide, due to the gravity force between them?
Probably not, though. I have no idea. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
They would all travel in a straight line tangent to their respective orbit around the Sun. Probably no collisions would happen unless the terrestrial planets were to travel through the asteroid belt.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-EEK+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (EEK)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Obviously, without the nuclear fuel, it will skip the red giant stage. So the earth is safe for now. The Sun would instantly smash into a white dwarf. Normally, the dwarf -> giant -> dwarf sequence will not produce any explosion. The process is gradual and slow. However, a complete collapse would in all likelyhood create a massive explosion. The outer part of the sun's atmosphere, the corona, the hottest part of the sun, every so often will release a CME (coronal mass ejection), an incredibly huge ball of plasma. Were the sun to completely collapse, the outer layers of the atmosphere (possibly including the chromosphere) would be released in all directions.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
this would take months. unless you "magically" replaced all the hydrogen/helium in the sun's core with iron or something, and then it'd collapse into a black hole, with a buttload of radiation released as it collapsed.
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What would happen? What are you talking about? First of all, my entire situation relied on if the sun instantly ran out of nuclear fuel. I know damn well it takes millions of years for a star to swell into a giant and then collapse to a dwarf. What the hell are you talking about 'iron sphere'? The sun is incapable of fusing iron, or even fusing elements INTO iron.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Basically it would supernova almost immediately, i'd give it a few days or maybe a week to go from iron star -> black hole. Needless to say this would irradiate the earth, blow away the atmosphere, possibly vaporize a good chunk of the side of earth that is facing towards the sun.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If a giant star novaed, the core IS forming the black hole. The explosion IS the core collapsing, and all the energy blowing outward. It would take about two hours (in a supergiant star) for the shockwave to reach the surface of the collapsing star. Once that happens, all hell breaks loose. The earth wouldn't be irradiated. The atmosphere wouldn't blow away. It would probably destroy the solar system. Mercury, Venus, Earth, and Mars would be GONE. You have no idea how powerful these explosions are. 179,000 years ago a star supernovaed in the Large Magellenic Cloud. In 1987 the energy from this explosion reached earth. The light was visible during daytime for several days, and brighter then a full moon at night. I'd even imagine the gas giants wouldn't last very long. We're talking... about 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 MEGATONS of explosive force. THAT IS HUGE.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The reason the dwarf->giant reaction happens is because of the backpressure caused by the hydrogen reaction failing: the core stops producing enough energy to counterbalance the weight of the solar atmosphere, and it crushes inwards. Eventually this crushing forces the atoms in the core so close that helium begins fusing (much higher temperatures needed for this reaction) at a noticeable rate. In our sun's mass range, this reaction produces enough energy to counteract the inwards crushing, and a "spring" effect is created. It takes millions of years to go from main stage -> initial crush -> giant.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nearly a bullseye. The sun runs low on hydrogen and begins contracting and cooling. The reducing energy causes the star to begin falling inwards. As it falls, it heats up more. As you said, this temperature rise causes a temperature rise high enough to begin fusion in helium. This raises the temperature considerably, the outer layers expand. Pow. Red giant.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Anyway, in the case of replacing the sun with an iron sphere of the same size, the core would immediately collapse (which is what i assume you're talking about), turn into a black hole over the course of, oh, maybe a few hours to a day.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Uh... this is entirely dependent on exactly how dense your iron ball is...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If you were just talking about hollowing out the inner core of the sun...it'd collapse into a brown dwarf and blow off a good chunk of the mantle in a nova or possibly just lose it due to not having enough mass. at least that's what i think, since it wouldn't have enough mass to do anything. Then we'd just be sitting around with a big, glow-y version of jupiter. All the planets would quickly fly out of orbit and we'd possibly meet a chunk of the asteroid belt (or, if we're really unlucky, jupiter itself) after a few years).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, it wouldn't. Brown Dwarfs are 'stars' that were never massive enough to start fusion. If it was randomly hollowed it wouldn't... do much of anything. It'd probably just float off. It is a gas giant after all.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->*edit* anyway, CME's are really due to the sun's magnetic field pwning itself. this probably will be magnified during the collapse. it'll be super awesome. We could be getting a faceful of plasma which sets the atmosphere on fire <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> that'd be sweet. *edit* oops, i meant that it would suck. badly. for us.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
CME's are yes, caused by the internal magnetic forces of the sun spiraling out and releasing plasma, but I likened a mass shed of the sun's layers to a massive CME.