tankefuglOne Script To Rule Them All...Trondheim, NorwayJoin Date: 2002-11-14Member: 8641Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Oct 21 2004, 01:36 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Oct 21 2004, 01:36 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> 1. Thank you for ignoring our arguments. This not only goes to tankfugel but to everyone. It's been stated that competetive players make the ideal canidates for balancing for pub play as well as competetive play because they do both. Whereas pub only PT's do not have both. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Not ignoring. Partially disagreeing. There's quite a bit of difference <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Oct 21 2004, 07:36 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Oct 21 2004, 07:36 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> 2. A list of changes agreed on by good competetive players has already been done, and submitted to Flayra. We are still waiting to see what goes in or not. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Can we, the lowly forumites, have a look-see? <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
unfortunately no we're bound by the nda and the threat of someone giving grendel a baseball bat, at least that was what was directed at me anyway. <_< >_> /me hides.
oh sorry wasn't reading that carefully i'm a little distracted with trying to break into a server that my serverop/head admin screwed up. set up ip filtering and forgot to include remote desktop.
This was created by using expert players oppinion. Keep in mind it's still new and not exactly "out there" on the creative part, because I want flayra to accept it. Though we all have our wacky ideas, I just would not list them.
Next read the whole thread and you can see the e-mail I sent to Flayra at the end.
tankefuglOne Script To Rule Them All...Trondheim, NorwayJoin Date: 2002-11-14Member: 8641Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
<!--QuoteBegin-Firewater+Oct 21 2004, 08:26 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Firewater @ Oct 21 2004, 08:26 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> As much as I don't like Forlorn, he does make very good points. His post is more productive than the PT team was for the past 3 months. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> What is it, exactly, that everyone thinks PTs do? Do you notice how when a public build comes out, you can install it and play it and it doesn't constantly crash or set fire to your cat? Do you see how the balance is good enough that CAL continues to use the latest version for matches? That means the PTs are doing their jobs. They find the bad bugs so that a publicly playable version can be released. They find the bad balance problems so that a fairly balanced version can be released.
Playtesting does not mean adding things to the game. I thought about posting that in giant bold letters... but I'm not trying to be a jerk here, just trying to get the point acros. This has been mentioned a couple times already: PTs test changes. PTs hunt bugs. PTs do not tell the devs what to work on. PTs do not add new things to the game.
Once the game is released to the general public for the large scale beta test is when the less obvious balance issues come to light. And anyone, at any time, is allowed to put suggestions in the I&S forum. They're ALL read, by a real developer now. If you're not putting your ideas there, you have no reason to be complaining about your ideas being ignored.
<!--QuoteBegin-Firewater+Oct 21 2004, 03:26 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Firewater @ Oct 21 2004, 03:26 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> As much as I don't like Forlorn, he does make very good points. His post is more productive than the PT team was for the past 3 months. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> That's why some were cut.
<!--QuoteBegin-HAMBONE+Oct 21 2004, 07:33 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (HAMBONE @ Oct 21 2004, 07:33 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Ive always been for public betas, afaik 3.0 is still a public beta but iirc there was a lot of behind the scenes stuff going on and they have had to rebuild a lot of their team from scratch and a lot of bugs and things of that nature are being fixed. The NS team is made up of extremely competent people, if 3.0b6 has balance issues then they will release a 3.0b7 to address them quickly, at least that has always been my experience. I do believe that games should be balanced for the top players, and I can't really recall a change in any game that i've played that was intended to balance the top tier games that didnt also balance the lower tier games - to put it more simply when you balance for the top tier it will also achieve greater balance in the public games, strategies/items that are too good in clan matches are usually even more overpowered in pub games. However IMO balance is more of the icing on the cake, the difficult stuff is finding/fixing bugs and making art and maps and adding features and managing a community and making the game fun. It is going to be pretty difficult for anyone to mess up the balance in NS, and if they do mess it up, then it is going to be easy for them to fix it. Balance is identifying overpowered/underpowered strategies/items and bringing them up to speed by either nerfing them or giving the other team's soft counter a boost. Generally top players and teams are more sneaky and conniving and they tend to seek out imbalanced strategies and exploit them with great vigor which should make the balance process easier and faster(also the more players with access to the game the more people to find exploitable strats). You could compare balance testing to bug testing, the objective is to "break" the game in a sense by finding a strategy/item that is too good, and then fix it(finding strategies/items that arent good enough and making them better is just as important). Bug testing is harder but it is the same kind of mindset used in balance testing.
In regards to what forlorn said, just to clarify, the role I played was mostly reading the forums and gathering the popular opinion and presenting it to flayra. I like to think that I was especially good at finding the strategies that were "too good" but a lot of the time I was presenting widely known issues and I never had any type of final say, I was more of a consultant.
Anyways I guess the point id like to make in this post is that the pts are all smart guys and they have all devoted a significant amount of time into this game and they all have the same motive which is to aid in the creation of a fun, balanced, bug-free game - if any of the changes they are making cause any serious balance issues, the issue will be short lived.
I think the best way to do it would be to have a smaller group of PTs do alpha testing, testing bugs and maps and giving input on features and ways to make the game more fun and helping with the primary balance testing for new features, then release the game to the public, let them have at it, release a balance patch or two, rinse and repeat, and to my knowledge that is more or less how they are doing things now. The primary goal should be getting a working product out to the public asap - yes clans are really good for balance, and their opinions on balance should be listened to with open ears and taken very seriously, but discussing wether or not clans should be involved in the internal PT pushes balance back into being an internal affair and delays public release further, you cant balance until the bugs are gone and the game works and if the bugs are gone and the game works then it should be in the hands of the people. The top teams/players are going to be able to compile balance data 10x faster if its a public release than they would if it were just 5-10 teams playing amongst themselves privately, for a number of reasons. Sorry this post is so long, its a very interesting debate
EDIT: I just want to clarify even further because rereading my post I dont know if i did a good job in relation to the current discussion. When we had just 10 clans in the 2.0 vet program it was not very productive at all, it was very hard to schedule games, etc. As soon as 2.0 was released and became the CAL version, all the clans jumped into action and started playing "for real", at which point the existing balance issues became apparent very quickly. This was the same thing that happened with 3.0 iirc. I do think that it is important to let the teams know that their opinion matters and is very important, I just don't think that realistically the teams are going to be able to get much work done until the release is public and in CAL. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, but I would never like for the old 2.0 vet program to be brought back. Or the 3.0 one either.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Good work, Forlorn. That's how to be productive.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Oct 21 2004, 04:10 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Oct 21 2004, 04:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Yep. I have always been productive. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I think <i>someone</i> wants PT a little too much ^_~ <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-BobTheJanitor+Oct 21 2004, 10:21 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BobTheJanitor @ Oct 21 2004, 10:21 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> What is it, exactly, that everyone thinks PTs do? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Uhm, the PT's are to playtest, which there is a great lack of as of now. A quote from Wither while on ventrilo with him and user.
Wither: User, isn't it funny how when Flayra is playtesting, everyone decides to show up for the test, but otherwise there is usually nobody. User: Yep.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Do you notice how when a public build comes out, you can install it and play it and it doesn't constantly crash or set fire to your cat?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Do you also notice that this could be done by any random group of people?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Do you see how the balance is good enough that CAL continues to use the latest version for matches?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As long as there are players, then there will be CAL. If you haven't noticed, CALs competitive scene is greatly decreasing, and there are about 4 clans scrimming each night. Lack of balance possibly?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->They find the bad bugs so that a publicly playable version can be released. They find the bad balance problems so that a fairly balanced version can be released.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Once again, this can be done by any random group of people, so why not bring in fresh blood if that's your argument?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Playtesting does not mean adding things to the game. I thought about posting that in giant bold letters... but I'm not trying to be a jerk here, just trying to get the point acros. This has been mentioned a couple times already: PTs test changes. PTs hunt bugs. PTs do not tell the devs what to work on. PTs do not add new things to the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So if the PTs don't tell the devs what to work on, why is it that they get their own private forum to discuss things that need to be added and changed, things that should be removed, and things that should be balanced?
As a final note, I'd like to mention something from a conversation I had with Romano yesterday. Twas a good convo, but nontheless helped. Mano said that, very openly, the dev team stated that anything that people suggest to balance small games, will be ignored, and he also told me that every post in the pt forum regarding a balance for small scale, or competitive games, are ignored. When I asked mano why he left NS, his answer was, and I will quote this with a log when I get home: "I saw what was coming in b5 and b6", where shortly after he told me about what the dev team stated about competitive play.
I spoke to Zunni shortly before romano, where Zunni also told me that Nemesis Zero will be in charge of whiping the PT team, and creating a new. Now, how could it be possibly that Nemesis, a man who is unactive in the competitive community, and knows very few, if any, of the skilled, dedicated players, is picking the new PT team. Does that make sense to anyone? All that will come once again is favoritism and those who he feels have "good attitudes" on the forums, excluding those 3 few people that Zunni mentioned should be PTs. Does this make sense, at all to anyone?
ShockehIf a packet drops on the web and nobody's near to see it...Join Date: 2002-11-19Member: 9336NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Oct 21 2004, 02:10 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Oct 21 2004, 02:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> This was created by using expert players oppinion. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yep. I have always been productive.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
*Chuckles at self promotion +10k*
Apart from that, it's quite a nice list, and similar to my own personal one. The only one I'm not fond of is the 'choosing of hives' in tournamentmode, as it would just mean after a short period of adjusting teams would pick the same hive, every game unless they were trying to 'fake out' the marine team.
I would have thought Forlorn of most people would be against anything which encourages a single gamestyle.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I spoke to Zunni shortly before romano, where Zunni also told me that Nemesis Zero will be in charge of whiping the PT team, and creating a new. Now, how could it be possibly that Nemesis, a man who is unactive in the competitive community, and knows very few, if any, of the skilled, dedicated players, is picking the new PT team. Does that make sense to anyone? All that will come once again is favoritism and those who he feels have "good attitudes" on the forums<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe if those players who would like to be PT and have the aptitude to do so could stop being collective 'holier than thou' asshats for 30-40 seconds, they'd appear to have that attitude. And as for it not making sense, who said it <b>had</b> to make sense? It's their call. The wonders of NS development not being a democracy.
I've suggested 2 clan members (and not from any I've been in) to be selected for PT who have previous experience and the right sort of mental attitude, and I know one has been selected, and I think a second might have been (I've not spoke to him this week), but I'm still considered the 'anti-clan' of the PT's.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Do you also notice that this could be done by any random group of people? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If the PTing can be done by any group of people, as you so readily point out, why not then pick the people that are easy to get along with and work well with others? A group of PTs that were always arguing wouldn't be very nice to work with.
General disclaimer to all my statements so far: I'm a forum mod, so my main job is just making sure things around here run smoothly. While that does also allow me the option to be a PT, I haven't been one long. I don't claim to speak for the PTs or the decisions made by PT leads or devs. I do, however, like to provide friendly arguments, it keeps conversation flowing along. At heart, I'm simply an NSPlayer like everyone else here, and I've felt the same aggravation with long waits for new builds and with seeming lack of attention given to problems.
<!--QuoteBegin--|HN|-_Prodigy_+Oct 21 2004, 12:47 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (-|HN|-_Prodigy_ @ Oct 21 2004, 12:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-BobTheJanitor+Oct 21 2004, 10:21 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BobTheJanitor @ Oct 21 2004, 10:21 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> What is it, exactly, that everyone thinks PTs do? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Uhm, the PT's are to playtest, which there is a great lack of as of now. A quote from Wither while on ventrilo with him and user.
Wither: User, isn't it funny how when Flayra is playtesting, everyone decides to show up for the test, but otherwise there is usually nobody. User: Yep.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Do you notice how when a public build comes out, you can install it and play it and it doesn't constantly crash or set fire to your cat?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Do you also notice that this could be done by any random group of people?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Do you see how the balance is good enough that CAL continues to use the latest version for matches?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As long as there are players, then there will be CAL. If you haven't noticed, CALs competitive scene is greatly decreasing, and there are about 4 clans scrimming each night. Lack of balance possibly?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->They find the bad bugs so that a publicly playable version can be released. They find the bad balance problems so that a fairly balanced version can be released.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Once again, this can be done by any random group of people, so why not bring in fresh blood if that's your argument?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Playtesting does not mean adding things to the game. I thought about posting that in giant bold letters... but I'm not trying to be a jerk here, just trying to get the point acros. This has been mentioned a couple times already: PTs test changes. PTs hunt bugs. PTs do not tell the devs what to work on. PTs do not add new things to the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So if the PTs don't tell the devs what to work on, why is it that they get their own private forum to discuss things that need to be added and changed, things that should be removed, and things that should be balanced?
As a final note, I'd like to mention something from a conversation I had with Romano yesterday. Twas a good convo, but nontheless helped. Mano said that, very openly, the dev team stated that anything that people suggest to balance small games, will be ignored, and he also told me that every post in the pt forum regarding a balance for small scale, or competitive games, are ignored. When I asked mano why he left NS, his answer was, and I will quote this with a log when I get home: "I saw what was coming in b5 and b6", where shortly after he told me about what the dev team stated about competitive play.
I spoke to Zunni shortly before romano, where Zunni also told me that Nemesis Zero will be in charge of whiping the PT team, and creating a new. Now, how could it be possibly that Nemesis, a man who is unactive in the competitive community, and knows very few, if any, of the skilled, dedicated players, is picking the new PT team. Does that make sense to anyone? All that will come once again is favoritism and those who he feels have "good attitudes" on the forums, excluding those 3 few people that Zunni mentioned should be PTs. Does this make sense, at all to anyone? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think that you may have hit it on the head there. PTs intention is that anyone can do it if they can at least play the game competently.
<span style='font-size:13pt;line-height:100%'>They are not doing extreme balance testing</span>
The beta is where the balance testing is going on.
Cal should be using the whole #'s not a beta.
I think that if there was massive balance testing going on then yes there should be more of an extreme player testing of the game. But it has been said time and time again from PT's and Mods that ballance testing is NOT there primary purpose.
A beta WILL BE un balanced because its a TEST not a full product.
These are beta TESTs not a beta full working and flawless.
An example of the balance with the whole group can be related to Star Craft since it has come up a few times.
When it first came out the cost of the structures and the units fit really well in the campaign mode... but once it was released publicly they found match play imbalances. there for had to release patches to change the cost of the building and units to be better off in match play.
The difference is that it was developed in the background first with out input from many others like this community. So there are going to be a lot harder kinks. Also they are not getting paid do do this so there going to take there time.
<!--QuoteBegin-Shockwave+Oct 21 2004, 01:02 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Shockwave @ Oct 21 2004, 01:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Oct 21 2004, 02:10 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Oct 21 2004, 02:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> This was created by using expert players oppinion. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yep. I have always been productive.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
*Chuckles at self promotion +10k*
Apart from that, it's quite a nice list, and similar to my own personal one. The only one I'm not fond of is the 'choosing of hives' in tournamentmode, as it would just mean after a short period of adjusting teams would pick the same hive, every game unless they were trying to 'fake out' the marine team.
I would have thought Forlorn of most people would be against anything which encourages a single gamestyle.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I spoke to Zunni shortly before romano, where Zunni also told me that Nemesis Zero will be in charge of whiping the PT team, and creating a new. Now, how could it be possibly that Nemesis, a man who is unactive in the competitive community, and knows very few, if any, of the skilled, dedicated players, is picking the new PT team. Does that make sense to anyone? All that will come once again is favoritism and those who he feels have "good attitudes" on the forums<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe if those players who would like to be PT and have the aptitude to do so could stop being collective 'holier than thou' asshats for 30-40 seconds, they'd appear to have that attitude. And as for it not making sense, who said it <b>had</b> to make sense? It's their call. The wonders of NS development not being a democracy.
I've suggested 2 clan members (and not from any I've been in) to be selected for PT who have previous experience and the right sort of mental attitude, and I know one has been selected, and I think a second might have been (I've not spoke to him this week), but I'm still considered the 'anti-clan' of the PT's.
- Shockwave <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I do not consider that to be self promotion.
By the way, where is your own personal list, just out of curosity shockwave?
And the whole "choose your hives" in tournamentmode would not affect 95% of the players who play the game, but you are right in the fact I am against something that enforces a single gamestyle.
That is why I am against random hives, because it almost guarentees D chambers are the first chamber of choice. Read the e-mail I sent to Flayra, and the reasoning I used for more explanation.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Maybe if those players who would like to be PT and have the aptitude to do so could stop being collective 'holier than thou' asshats for 30-40 seconds,<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm sorry, but the only 'holier than thou' attitude has not been from any competetive players.
I'd think a group of people who could cooperate with eachother and other people, and be able to make decent judgements would be good PTs. I don't put much importance on pushing the game to it's limits, or whatever, though.
<!--QuoteBegin-Ness-Earthbound+Oct 21 2004, 03:37 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ness-Earthbound @ Oct 21 2004, 03:37 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'd think a group of people who could cooperate with eachother and other people, and be able to make decent judgements would be good PTs. I don't put much importance on pushing the game to it's limits, or whatever, though. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Pushing the game to its limits is where the best balance can be achieved though. For example, on pubs lets say that on average, the general concensus between the players on that server is that fades are too strong! One really good player is wiping out the marine team despite the fact that the marines don't always work together and the commander didn't tech up enough to counter the fade. They quickly vote to nerf the fade because its too strong. However, this carries over to competitive playy where the marines are a lot better skillwise and have a higher sense of teamwork, the commander also is able to acquire the right tech advancements in the amount of time necessary before fades arrive. The fades will get raped everytime with the new nerf.
I don't think anyone is suggesting firing all the PTs and getting new ones, I'm pretty sure that their experience as PTers from when they first started is still valuable, especially in finding bugs that are hard to find and out of the ordinary. But to truly balance the game and test if any of the new changes are inbalanced, 'skill stress' testing would be the best solution.
NolSinklerOn the ClorfJoin Date: 2004-02-15Member: 26560Members, Constellation
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As much as I don't like Forlorn, he does make very good points. His post is more productive than the PT team was for the past 3 months. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> What's not to like about Forlorn?
ShockehIf a packet drops on the web and nobody's near to see it...Join Date: 2002-11-19Member: 9336NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Oct 21 2004, 08:30 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Oct 21 2004, 08:30 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> By the way, where is your own personal list, just out of curosity shockwave?
And the whole "choose your hives" in tournamentmode would not affect 95% of the players who play the game, but you are right in the fact I am against something that enforces a single gamestyle.
That is why I am against random hives, because it almost guarentees D chambers are the first chamber of choice. Read the e-mail I sent to Flayra, and the reasoning I used for more explanation. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Believe it or not, it lives in a notepad, surrounded by scribblings, general thoughts & idle doodles that resides on my desk. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Incidentally Forlorn, that wasn't an attempt to dig at you with either the comment about your hives suggestion or the 'holier than thou' comment. The hives one was simply because I don't fully agree with the reasoning, although I can see (and concede) your point on it. I'd prefer to see the chambers be equal though, and see what happens from there.
And you know I've felt you've held that attitude in the past, but the comment there was not directed at you, but rather a general feeling as a whole, particular amongst EU clanplay, where I actually see it far more than when I wander to US servers, where bizarrely I find them much more accomodating.
Erm..even though this has been mentioed alot. I belive most of the PT are saying thier job is mostly to find bugs.
If thats the case, then they dont need people who push it to the extreme. It was also pointed out that when clans were Playtesting, they didn't push it anyways because it didn't realy count. And when Cal came around, then they actualy tried alot harder due to the fact it "counted"
Im just repeating what was said earlier. But it seems that some people missed that point
<!--QuoteBegin-Gecko God Of DOOOM+Oct 21 2004, 04:09 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Gecko God Of DOOOM @ Oct 21 2004, 04:09 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Erm..even though this has been mentioed alot. I belive most of the PT are saying thier job is mostly to find bugs.
If thats the case, then they dont need people who push it to the extreme. It was also pointed out that when clans were Playtesting, they didn't push it anyways because it didn't realy count. And when Cal came around, then they actualy tried alot harder due to the fact it "counted"
Im just repeating what was said earlier. But it seems that some people missed that point <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Then the PTs who "weren't trying" should've been fired and replaced. Being a PT for games like this is a privilege, you don't do the job they ask of you, I'm sure there is a lot of other, equally dedicated people who are good enough to take over.
<!--QuoteBegin-BobTheJanitor+Oct 21 2004, 10:21 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BobTheJanitor @ Oct 21 2004, 10:21 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> What is it, exactly, that everyone thinks PTs do? Do you notice how when a public build comes out, you can install it and play it and it doesn't constantly crash or set fire to your cat? Do you see how the balance is good enough that CAL continues to use the latest version for matches? That means the PTs are doing their jobs. They find the bad bugs so that a publicly playable version can be released. They find the bad balance problems so that a fairly balanced version can be released. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Or more to the point (and third time I've said this so I'll put it in my signature so you guys stop pointing fingers)
Zunni, Nem0, the <i>whole</i> NS Team except Flayra, <span style='color:red'>DO NOT get paid for their work!</span> Flayra is the <i>only</i> guy who gets paid and that income comes from donnations.
You don't believe me? Ask.
I didn't know it until recently when Zunni told me, and when I told Dr. Fuzzy one Saturday while playing paintball he didn't know either.
We are all volunteers working solely out of the love for the game and/or the community it spawned. If you want something done ask a favor, do it *gasp* yourself, or pay somebody a wage but this whiny demanding stuff just like my 3 year-old sister needs to <span style='color:red'>stop</span>.
<!--QuoteBegin-crisano+Oct 21 2004, 03:14 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (crisano @ Oct 21 2004, 03:14 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Gecko God Of DOOOM+Oct 21 2004, 04:09 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Gecko God Of DOOOM @ Oct 21 2004, 04:09 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Erm..even though this has been mentioed alot. I belive most of the PT are saying thier job is mostly to find bugs.
If thats the case, then they dont need people who push it to the extreme. It was also pointed out that when clans were Playtesting, they didn't push it anyways because it didn't realy count. And when Cal came around, then they actualy tried alot harder due to the fact it "counted"
Im just repeating what was said earlier. But it seems that some people missed that point <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Then the PTs who "weren't trying" should've been fired and replaced. Being a PT for games like this is a privilege, you don't do the job they ask of you, I'm sure there is a lot of other, equally dedicated people who are good enough to take over. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Its human nature not to try as hard when it "doesn't count"
Im sure if I took you, and another person in a 2 man race, and pulled out a gun and said "Who ever loses Dies" Im sure you both will try all that much more harder than. " Okay guys, try your best"
If we let clanners PT again, wouldnt we have the whole clans-who-got-to-PT will have an advantage next version problem again? This was one of the most controversial aspects of the original Vet program, if I recall correctly.
Now, if that can be solved, I dont see the problem in having a seperate servers for PTs and clanners so that we dont have the same problems as last time, as well as getting both normal PT done, as well as clanner's push-it-to-the-limit style PT done.
Forlorn: competitive players DO have a holier-than-thou attitude. Just look at your own clanmate's posts in your forum. And isnt this feeling of superiority the reason of this dispute? Competitive players feel that they are more competent (holier) than the current PTs?
<!--QuoteBegin-Umbraed Monkey+Oct 21 2004, 03:30 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Umbraed Monkey @ Oct 21 2004, 03:30 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If we let clanners PT again, wouldnt we have the whole clans-who-got-to-PT will have an advantage next version problem again? This was one of the most controversial aspects of the original Vet program, if I recall correctly.
Now, if that can be solved, I dont see the problem in having a seperate servers for PTs and clanners so that we dont have the same problems as last time, as well as getting both normal PT done, as well as clanner's push-it-to-the-limit style PT done.
Forlorn: competitive players DO have a holier-than-thou attitude. Just look at your own clanmate's posts in your forum. And isnt this feeling of superiority the reason of this dispute? Competitive players feel that they are more competent (holier) than the current PTs? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I do not think that the old vet program should be reinstituted. That is not what I am arguing.
EDIT: The posts on the forum are that way because we know each other from many games of NS.
No see, I'm not for clanners per se; I'm for highly skilled players getting to PT. I don't even think the existing PT program needs to be removed, I only think something needs to be added.
Anyhow, I use clanners with "highly skilled players" because chances are very likely if you are good then you are a clanner. However there are exceptions, there is always pub talent and stuff, but I do not know one player who is amoung the top in the world and only pubs. They can still be good but never the best untill they clan.
Comments
Not ignoring. Partially disagreeing. There's quite a bit of difference <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Can we, the lowly forumites, have a look-see? <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
This was created by using expert players oppinion. Keep in mind it's still new and not exactly "out there" on the creative part, because I want flayra to accept it. Though we all have our wacky ideas, I just would not list them.
Next read the whole thread and you can see the e-mail I sent to Flayra at the end.
What is it, exactly, that everyone thinks PTs do? Do you notice how when a public build comes out, you can install it and play it and it doesn't constantly crash or set fire to your cat? Do you see how the balance is good enough that CAL continues to use the latest version for matches? That means the PTs are doing their jobs. They find the bad bugs so that a publicly playable version can be released. They find the bad balance problems so that a fairly balanced version can be released.
Playtesting does not mean adding things to the game. I thought about posting that in giant bold letters... but I'm not trying to be a jerk here, just trying to get the point acros. This has been mentioned a couple times already: PTs test changes. PTs hunt bugs. PTs do not tell the devs what to work on. PTs do not add new things to the game.
Once the game is released to the general public for the large scale beta test is when the less obvious balance issues come to light. And anyone, at any time, is allowed to put suggestions in the I&S forum. They're ALL read, by a real developer now. If you're not putting your ideas there, you have no reason to be complaining about your ideas being ignored.
That's why some were cut.
In regards to what forlorn said, just to clarify, the role I played was mostly reading the forums and gathering the popular opinion and presenting it to flayra. I like to think that I was especially good at finding the strategies that were "too good" but a lot of the time I was presenting widely known issues and I never had any type of final say, I was more of a consultant.
Anyways I guess the point id like to make in this post is that the pts are all smart guys and they have all devoted a significant amount of time into this game and they all have the same motive which is to aid in the creation of a fun, balanced, bug-free game - if any of the changes they are making cause any serious balance issues, the issue will be short lived.
I think the best way to do it would be to have a smaller group of PTs do alpha testing, testing bugs and maps and giving input on features and ways to make the game more fun and helping with the primary balance testing for new features, then release the game to the public, let them have at it, release a balance patch or two, rinse and repeat, and to my knowledge that is more or less how they are doing things now. The primary goal should be getting a working product out to the public asap - yes clans are really good for balance, and their opinions on balance should be listened to with open ears and taken very seriously, but discussing wether or not clans should be involved in the internal PT pushes balance back into being an internal affair and delays public release further, you cant balance until the bugs are gone and the game works and if the bugs are gone and the game works then it should be in the hands of the people. The top teams/players are going to be able to compile balance data 10x faster if its a public release than they would if it were just 5-10 teams playing amongst themselves privately, for a number of reasons. Sorry this post is so long, its a very interesting debate
EDIT: I just want to clarify even further because rereading my post I dont know if i did a good job in relation to the current discussion. When we had just 10 clans in the 2.0 vet program it was not very productive at all, it was very hard to schedule games, etc. As soon as 2.0 was released and became the CAL version, all the clans jumped into action and started playing "for real", at which point the existing balance issues became apparent very quickly. This was the same thing that happened with 3.0 iirc. I do think that it is important to let the teams know that their opinion matters and is very important, I just don't think that realistically the teams are going to be able to get much work done until the release is public and in CAL. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, but I would never like for the old 2.0 vet program to be brought back. Or the 3.0 one either.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Good work, Forlorn. That's how to be productive.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yep. I have always been productive.
I think <i>someone</i> wants PT a little too much ^_~ <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Uhm, the PT's are to playtest, which there is a great lack of as of now.
A quote from Wither while on ventrilo with him and user.
Wither: User, isn't it funny how when Flayra is playtesting, everyone decides to show up for the test, but otherwise there is usually nobody.
User: Yep.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Do you notice how when a public build comes out, you can install it and play it and it doesn't constantly crash or set fire to your cat?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Do you also notice that this could be done by any random group of people?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Do you see how the balance is good enough that CAL continues to use the latest version for matches?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As long as there are players, then there will be CAL. If you haven't noticed, CALs competitive scene is greatly decreasing, and there are about 4 clans scrimming each night. Lack of balance possibly?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->They find the bad bugs so that a publicly playable version can be released. They find the bad balance problems so that a fairly balanced version can be released.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Once again, this can be done by any random group of people, so why not bring in fresh blood if that's your argument?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Playtesting does not mean adding things to the game. I thought about posting that in giant bold letters... but I'm not trying to be a jerk here, just trying to get the point acros. This has been mentioned a couple times already: PTs test changes. PTs hunt bugs. PTs do not tell the devs what to work on. PTs do not add new things to the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So if the PTs don't tell the devs what to work on, why is it that they get their own private forum to discuss things that need to be added and changed, things that should be removed, and things that should be balanced?
As a final note, I'd like to mention something from a conversation I had with Romano yesterday. Twas a good convo, but nontheless helped.
Mano said that, very openly, the dev team stated that anything that people suggest to balance small games, will be ignored, and he also told me that every post in the pt forum regarding a balance for small scale, or competitive games, are ignored. When I asked mano why he left NS, his answer was, and I will quote this with a log when I get home: "I saw what was coming in b5 and b6", where shortly after he told me about what the dev team stated about competitive play.
I spoke to Zunni shortly before romano, where Zunni also told me that Nemesis Zero will be in charge of whiping the PT team, and creating a new. Now, how could it be possibly that Nemesis, a man who is unactive in the competitive community, and knows very few, if any, of the skilled, dedicated players, is picking the new PT team. Does that make sense to anyone? All that will come once again is favoritism and those who he feels have "good attitudes" on the forums, excluding those 3 few people that Zunni mentioned should be PTs. Does this make sense, at all to anyone?
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yep. I have always been productive.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
*Chuckles at self promotion +10k*
Apart from that, it's quite a nice list, and similar to my own personal one. The only one I'm not fond of is the 'choosing of hives' in tournamentmode, as it would just mean after a short period of adjusting teams would pick the same hive, every game unless they were trying to 'fake out' the marine team.
I would have thought Forlorn of most people would be against anything which encourages a single gamestyle.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I spoke to Zunni shortly before romano, where Zunni also told me that Nemesis Zero will be in charge of whiping the PT team, and creating a new. Now, how could it be possibly that Nemesis, a man who is unactive in the competitive community, and knows very few, if any, of the skilled, dedicated players, is picking the new PT team. Does that make sense to anyone? All that will come once again is favoritism and those who he feels have "good attitudes" on the forums<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe if those players who would like to be PT and have the aptitude to do so could stop being collective 'holier than thou' asshats for 30-40 seconds, they'd appear to have that attitude. And as for it not making sense, who said it <b>had</b> to make sense? It's their call. The wonders of NS development not being a democracy.
I've suggested 2 clan members (and not from any I've been in) to be selected for PT who have previous experience and the right sort of mental attitude, and I know one has been selected, and I think a second might have been (I've not spoke to him this week), but I'm still considered the 'anti-clan' of the PT's.
- Shockwave
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If the PTing can be done by any group of people, as you so readily point out, why not then pick the people that are easy to get along with and work well with others? A group of PTs that were always arguing wouldn't be very nice to work with.
General disclaimer to all my statements so far: I'm a forum mod, so my main job is just making sure things around here run smoothly. While that does also allow me the option to be a PT, I haven't been one long. I don't claim to speak for the PTs or the decisions made by PT leads or devs. I do, however, like to provide friendly arguments, it keeps conversation flowing along. At heart, I'm simply an NSPlayer like everyone else here, and I've felt the same aggravation with long waits for new builds and with seeming lack of attention given to problems.
Uhm, the PT's are to playtest, which there is a great lack of as of now.
A quote from Wither while on ventrilo with him and user.
Wither: User, isn't it funny how when Flayra is playtesting, everyone decides to show up for the test, but otherwise there is usually nobody.
User: Yep.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Do you notice how when a public build comes out, you can install it and play it and it doesn't constantly crash or set fire to your cat?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Do you also notice that this could be done by any random group of people?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Do you see how the balance is good enough that CAL continues to use the latest version for matches?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As long as there are players, then there will be CAL. If you haven't noticed, CALs competitive scene is greatly decreasing, and there are about 4 clans scrimming each night. Lack of balance possibly?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->They find the bad bugs so that a publicly playable version can be released. They find the bad balance problems so that a fairly balanced version can be released.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Once again, this can be done by any random group of people, so why not bring in fresh blood if that's your argument?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Playtesting does not mean adding things to the game. I thought about posting that in giant bold letters... but I'm not trying to be a jerk here, just trying to get the point acros. This has been mentioned a couple times already: PTs test changes. PTs hunt bugs. PTs do not tell the devs what to work on. PTs do not add new things to the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So if the PTs don't tell the devs what to work on, why is it that they get their own private forum to discuss things that need to be added and changed, things that should be removed, and things that should be balanced?
As a final note, I'd like to mention something from a conversation I had with Romano yesterday. Twas a good convo, but nontheless helped.
Mano said that, very openly, the dev team stated that anything that people suggest to balance small games, will be ignored, and he also told me that every post in the pt forum regarding a balance for small scale, or competitive games, are ignored. When I asked mano why he left NS, his answer was, and I will quote this with a log when I get home: "I saw what was coming in b5 and b6", where shortly after he told me about what the dev team stated about competitive play.
I spoke to Zunni shortly before romano, where Zunni also told me that Nemesis Zero will be in charge of whiping the PT team, and creating a new. Now, how could it be possibly that Nemesis, a man who is unactive in the competitive community, and knows very few, if any, of the skilled, dedicated players, is picking the new PT team. Does that make sense to anyone? All that will come once again is favoritism and those who he feels have "good attitudes" on the forums, excluding those 3 few people that Zunni mentioned should be PTs. Does this make sense, at all to anyone? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think that you may have hit it on the head there. PTs intention is that anyone can do it if they can at least play the game competently.
<span style='font-size:13pt;line-height:100%'>They are not doing extreme balance testing</span>
The beta is where the balance testing is going on.
Cal should be using the whole #'s not a beta.
I think that if there was massive balance testing going on then yes there should be more of an extreme player testing of the game. But it has been said time and time again from PT's and Mods that ballance testing is NOT there primary purpose.
A beta WILL BE un balanced because its a TEST not a full product.
These are beta TESTs not a beta full working and flawless.
An example of the balance with the whole group can be related to Star Craft since it has come up a few times.
When it first came out the cost of the structures and the units fit really well in the campaign mode... but once it was released publicly they found match play imbalances. there for had to release patches to change the cost of the building and units to be better off in match play.
The difference is that it was developed in the background first with out input from many others like this community. So there are going to be a lot harder kinks. Also they are not getting paid do do this so there going to take there time.
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yep. I have always been productive.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
*Chuckles at self promotion +10k*
Apart from that, it's quite a nice list, and similar to my own personal one. The only one I'm not fond of is the 'choosing of hives' in tournamentmode, as it would just mean after a short period of adjusting teams would pick the same hive, every game unless they were trying to 'fake out' the marine team.
I would have thought Forlorn of most people would be against anything which encourages a single gamestyle.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I spoke to Zunni shortly before romano, where Zunni also told me that Nemesis Zero will be in charge of whiping the PT team, and creating a new. Now, how could it be possibly that Nemesis, a man who is unactive in the competitive community, and knows very few, if any, of the skilled, dedicated players, is picking the new PT team. Does that make sense to anyone? All that will come once again is favoritism and those who he feels have "good attitudes" on the forums<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe if those players who would like to be PT and have the aptitude to do so could stop being collective 'holier than thou' asshats for 30-40 seconds, they'd appear to have that attitude. And as for it not making sense, who said it <b>had</b> to make sense? It's their call. The wonders of NS development not being a democracy.
I've suggested 2 clan members (and not from any I've been in) to be selected for PT who have previous experience and the right sort of mental attitude, and I know one has been selected, and I think a second might have been (I've not spoke to him this week), but I'm still considered the 'anti-clan' of the PT's.
- Shockwave <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I do not consider that to be self promotion.
By the way, where is your own personal list, just out of curosity shockwave?
And the whole "choose your hives" in tournamentmode would not affect 95% of the players who play the game, but you are right in the fact I am against something that enforces a single gamestyle.
That is why I am against random hives, because it almost guarentees D chambers are the first chamber of choice.
Read the e-mail I sent to Flayra, and the reasoning I used for more explanation.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Maybe if those players who would like to be PT and have the aptitude to do so could stop being collective 'holier than thou' asshats for 30-40 seconds,<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm sorry, but the only 'holier than thou' attitude has not been from any competetive players.
Pushing the game to its limits is where the best balance can be achieved though. For example, on pubs lets say that on average, the general concensus between the players on that server is that fades are too strong! One really good player is wiping out the marine team despite the fact that the marines don't always work together and the commander didn't tech up enough to counter the fade. They quickly vote to nerf the fade because its too strong. However, this carries over to competitive playy where the marines are a lot better skillwise and have a higher sense of teamwork, the commander also is able to acquire the right tech advancements in the amount of time necessary before fades arrive. The fades will get raped everytime with the new nerf.
I don't think anyone is suggesting firing all the PTs and getting new ones, I'm pretty sure that their experience as PTers from when they first started is still valuable, especially in finding bugs that are hard to find and out of the ordinary. But to truly balance the game and test if any of the new changes are inbalanced, 'skill stress' testing would be the best solution.
What's not to like about Forlorn?
And the whole "choose your hives" in tournamentmode would not affect 95% of the players who play the game, but you are right in the fact I am against something that enforces a single gamestyle.
That is why I am against random hives, because it almost guarentees D chambers are the first chamber of choice.
Read the e-mail I sent to Flayra, and the reasoning I used for more explanation. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Believe it or not, it lives in a notepad, surrounded by scribblings, general thoughts & idle doodles that resides on my desk. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Incidentally Forlorn, that wasn't an attempt to dig at you with either the comment about your hives suggestion or the 'holier than thou' comment. The hives one was simply because I don't fully agree with the reasoning, although I can see (and concede) your point on it. I'd prefer to see the chambers be equal though, and see what happens from there.
And you know I've felt you've held that attitude in the past, but the comment there was not directed at you, but rather a general feeling as a whole, particular amongst EU clanplay, where I actually see it far more than when I wander to US servers, where bizarrely I find them much more accomodating.
- Shockwave
If thats the case, then they dont need people who push it to the extreme.
It was also pointed out that when clans were Playtesting, they didn't push it anyways because it didn't realy count. And when Cal came around, then they actualy tried alot harder due to the fact it "counted"
Im just repeating what was said earlier. But it seems that some people missed that point
If thats the case, then they dont need people who push it to the extreme.
It was also pointed out that when clans were Playtesting, they didn't push it anyways because it didn't realy count. And when Cal came around, then they actualy tried alot harder due to the fact it "counted"
Im just repeating what was said earlier. But it seems that some people missed that point <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then the PTs who "weren't trying" should've been fired and replaced. Being a PT for games like this is a privilege, you don't do the job they ask of you, I'm sure there is a lot of other, equally dedicated people who are good enough to take over.
Or more to the point (and third time I've said this so I'll put it in my signature so you guys stop pointing fingers)
Zunni, Nem0, the <i>whole</i> NS Team except Flayra, <span style='color:red'>DO NOT get paid for their work!</span> Flayra is the <i>only</i> guy who gets paid and that income comes from donnations.
You don't believe me? Ask.
I didn't know it until recently when Zunni told me, and when I told Dr. Fuzzy one Saturday while playing paintball he didn't know either.
We are all volunteers working solely out of the love for the game and/or the community it spawned. If you want something done ask a favor, do it *gasp* yourself, or pay somebody a wage but this whiny demanding stuff just like my 3 year-old sister needs to <span style='color:red'>stop</span>.
Capice?
If thats the case, then they dont need people who push it to the extreme.
It was also pointed out that when clans were Playtesting, they didn't push it anyways because it didn't realy count. And when Cal came around, then they actualy tried alot harder due to the fact it "counted"
Im just repeating what was said earlier. But it seems that some people missed that point <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then the PTs who "weren't trying" should've been fired and replaced. Being a PT for games like this is a privilege, you don't do the job they ask of you, I'm sure there is a lot of other, equally dedicated people who are good enough to take over. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Its human nature not to try as hard when it "doesn't count"
Im sure if I took you, and another person in a 2 man race, and pulled out a gun and said "Who ever loses Dies" Im sure you both will try all that much more harder than. " Okay guys, try your best"
Now, if that can be solved, I dont see the problem in having a seperate servers for PTs and clanners so that we dont have the same problems as last time, as well as getting both normal PT done, as well as clanner's push-it-to-the-limit style PT done.
Forlorn: competitive players DO have a holier-than-thou attitude. Just look at your own clanmate's posts in your forum. And isnt this feeling of superiority the reason of this dispute? Competitive players feel that they are more competent (holier) than the current PTs?
Now, if that can be solved, I dont see the problem in having a seperate servers for PTs and clanners so that we dont have the same problems as last time, as well as getting both normal PT done, as well as clanner's push-it-to-the-limit style PT done.
Forlorn: competitive players DO have a holier-than-thou attitude. Just look at your own clanmate's posts in your forum. And isnt this feeling of superiority the reason of this dispute? Competitive players feel that they are more competent (holier) than the current PTs? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I do not think that the old vet program should be reinstituted. That is not what I am arguing.
EDIT: The posts on the forum are that way because we know each other from many games of NS.
Anyhow, I use clanners with "highly skilled players" because chances are very likely if you are good then you are a clanner. However there are exceptions, there is always pub talent and stuff, but I do not know one player who is amoung the top in the world and only pubs. They can still be good but never the best untill they clan.
Makes sense too, as competition breeds skill...
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