I'm sure everyone will start speculating (and likely guess correctly), but before we haven't resolved a few technical worries, I'd rather not point fingers.
Since I have now been given free reign to speculate, I cannot help but do so.
I think competitive play will be balanced by a super team made up of 1. All members of British Parliament between the ages of 50 and 52. 2. A charming, very aged seamstress from Boise, Idaho by the name of Mildred Appelby, but known as "Ma Apples" to her friends and numerous family members. And 3. Forlorn, but Forlorn will only be allowed to play while wearing a helmet with the blast shield down, thus not allowing him to see the game and instead requiring him to use either 'the Force' or 'teh H4x'. This will all be overseen by Grendel and Nem0 who will spend all the PT sessions drinking a curious wine distilled from celery and singing bawdy old seaman's songs as loud as possible over voice comm.
TheAdjHe demanded a cool forum title of some type.Join Date: 2004-05-03Member: 28436Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
edited October 2004
Didn't you know that forlorn's scripts play for him, all he has to do is hit a few keys and he'll rack up 50 kills as fade automatically. A helmet won't stop him.
Well if you need a spare PT I'll be over here somewhere.... <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I'll go with Norn as well - he looks lonely. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-404NotFound+Oct 22 2004, 05:54 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (404NotFound @ Oct 22 2004, 05:54 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The third rule of being a PT is ponce. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> NO PONCE ALLOWED!
<!--QuoteBegin-BobTheJanitor+Oct 22 2004, 02:56 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BobTheJanitor @ Oct 22 2004, 02:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Since I have now been given free reign to speculate, I cannot help but do so.
I think competitive play will be balanced by a super team made up of 1. All members of British Parliament between the ages of 50 and 52. 2. A charming, very aged seamstress from Boise, Idaho by the name of Mildred Appelby, but known as "Ma Apples" to her friends and numerous family members. And 3. Forlorn, but Forlorn will only be allowed to play while wearing a helmet with the blast shield down, thus not allowing him to see the game and instead requiring him to use either 'the Force' or 'teh H4x'. This will all be overseen by Grendel and Nem0 who will spend all the PT sessions drinking a curious wine distilled from celery and singing bawdy old seaman's songs as loud as possible over voice comm.
Have I hit the nail on the head? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> A very good guess, but as might know, the relationship between NS and Downing Street has somewhat cooled off since Blair stopped returning Fam's calls, so we had to settle for plan B <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Honestly I think too much of the PT process is dedicated towards a public image.
As long as a good product gets out, what cares what methods you use?
Furthermore, the ONLY reason stuff gets leaked is because the people in the process don't trust it. Therefore, if peopel had representation once again, there would be little reason to leak the info.
Well, I wouldn't necesarily say it's the ONLY reason stuff gets leaked.
I don't have any time to say anything I have to shower and rush to class. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Forlorn's first sentence also 2x
If you're going to present a corporate face to the market, get more guys on the team with a background in PR and such.
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Oct 22 2004, 04:57 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Oct 22 2004, 04:57 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Honestly I think too much of the PT process is dedicated towards a public image. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Oh come on, Forlorn, at least put up some effort. We've been assembling, adding, and deducting from this group for months in relative silence, and now, that we are making an extended public statement for the first time since the end of the vet's involvement in the process, we're suddenly too focussed on the public image. This is not constructive; hell, it hardly fills the shoes of 'criticism'.
<!--QuoteBegin-Nemesis Zero+Oct 22 2004, 12:21 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nemesis Zero @ Oct 22 2004, 12:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Oct 22 2004, 04:57 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Oct 22 2004, 04:57 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Honestly I think too much of the PT process is dedicated towards a public image. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Oh come on, Forlorn, at least put up some effort. We've been assembling, adding, and deducting from this group for months in relative silence, and now, that we are making an extended public statement for the first time since the end of the vet's involvement in the process, we're suddenly too focussed on the public image. This is not constructive; hell, it hardly fills the shoes of 'criticism'. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I mean just look at the requirements...
I'd rank them like this (top being most important)
4. 1. 3. 2.
They need to be good, but being good is useless if they aren't dedicated to what they do, and they should be from europe, america, etc. Finally them being nice is icing on the cake.
You may say this would lead to a lot of leaked builds, but there is no way to guarentee that. I usually get my info (when I need too) from whoever, they could be nice, they could be mean, doesn't really matter. The point is, all of them are always unsatisfied. That is the number one card that plays into leaking the info.
If people didn't feel like the changelogs didn't have horrible additions, then there would probably be a lot less leaking going around. I know I never spread around word of what the BUS was because I've always liked it.
<!--QuoteBegin-The_IRS+Oct 22 2004, 06:52 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (The_IRS @ Oct 22 2004, 06:52 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I guess the recent flood of "fix your game devs" threads have made an impact <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Just as I've said to Zunni, there are cliques, and that is it. An impact, partially. The impact was that now, they want a new PT team, but the entire point of most of this has been shunned. Skill... lets suggest someone because he says they are a good player, are you, grendel, personally going to pub with each player to see if they go 52-10 like an actually skilled person would in a pub? Or are you going to take their word?
Grendel, a man with an extensive competitive background, gave a likewise extensive explanation for our priorities and their order. If you want to make a point, you'll have to measure it up against that.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Skill... lets suggest someone because he says they are a good player, are you, grendel, personally going to pub with each player to see if they go 52-10 like an actually skilled person would in a pub? Or are you going to take their word?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> As you know, the PT additions are invite only. Grendel has ample opportunity to check the players on their own turf.
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Oct 22 2004, 12:26 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Oct 22 2004, 12:26 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Nemesis Zero+Oct 22 2004, 12:21 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nemesis Zero @ Oct 22 2004, 12:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Oct 22 2004, 04:57 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Oct 22 2004, 04:57 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Honestly I think too much of the PT process is dedicated towards a public image. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Oh come on, Forlorn, at least put up some effort. We've been assembling, adding, and deducting from this group for months in relative silence, and now, that we are making an extended public statement for the first time since the end of the vet's involvement in the process, we're suddenly too focussed on the public image. This is not constructive; hell, it hardly fills the shoes of 'criticism'. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I mean just look at the requirements...
I'd rank them like this (top being most important)
4. 1. 3. 2.
They need to be good, but being good is useless if they aren't dedicated to what they do, and they should be from europe, america, etc. Finally them being nice is icing on the cake. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> slighty shocked to see that the most revered and amiable natural selection player of all time has ranked these qualities so low
As of now ebnar, blue, and keyser are the most skilled PTs. Why not have them contribute? I'm positive they would. Maybe not keyser, but blue and ebnar would.
If only the rest of the PT's were held up to this method. Instead of being lazy and practically forced to PT. Especially when Flayra isn't around. I mean I can understand contributers such as mappers, modelers, sound artists, etc... Being PT's even if they pretty much do nothing. But when you have people who rarely play the game. Or don't even play yet they continue to have PT. They don't contribute anything and they take up space. What the hell is the point of having them there.
And despite what this post says Grendel some of the more recent PT recruitments have contradicted almost all of them. Not that I'm going to point fingers or anything.
<!--QuoteBegin-Chem+Oct 22 2004, 05:42 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Chem @ Oct 22 2004, 05:42 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I mean I can understand contributers such as mappers, modelers, sound artists, etc... Being PT's even if they pretty much do nothing. But when you have people who rarely play the game. Or don't even play yet they continue to have PT. They don't contribute anything and they take up space. What the hell is the point of having them there. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> There are some people who retain PT status for honorary reasons - we will, for example, reserve a spot for KFS, though it's unlikely he'll be able to truly participate in the next time. Otherwise, we're removing PTs either on their request (as happened with, for example, eggmac, who I've got to say I was very sad to see go), or when we add another batch of new faces. I've got to admit that my move held me up a little in this not very nice duty, but I'm getting back into swing. As for your issues with single PTs, you are always welcome to file complaints via PM, though I can not guarantee we'll act on them.
That_Annoying_KidSire of TitlesJoin Date: 2003-03-01Member: 14175Members, Constellation
Grendel, thank you for taking the time to keep us civilians informed on what you look for, I'm noticing a generall opening [adding of zunni, joev quashing the hitbox comment code, and this post] maybe NS can make a new era of MonsE were tantalizing information was humorously scattered throught the forums and readily accessable due to MonsE's esoteric style <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->(1) Now I know that some of you will be going "WTH? skill is teh m05t! teh h4x is where it's at, baby1!!!".
Well, no. First and foremost, we need people who won't leak builds and people who we can trust. That automatically puts a number of individuals out of the running. The higher the e-status of the individual, the more prone they are to leak information. If an individual has already proven to the development team through their actions in the community that they are unable to keep things to themselves, then they are never going to get a testing slot. Many of the more suitable candidates for testing due to their skill or knowledge have already disqualified themselves on these grounds.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
From my edited post one page ago:
"You may say this would lead to a lot of leaked builds, but there is no way to guarentee that. I usually get my info (when I need too) from whoever, they could be nice, they could be mean, doesn't really matter. The point is, all of them are always unsatisfied. That is the number one card that plays into leaking the info.
If people didn't feel like the changelogs didn't have horrible additions, then there would probably be a lot less leaking going around. I know I never spread around word of what the BUS was because I've always liked it."
E-Status has nothing to do with it, I know for a fact I do not get my leaked builds from Nem0 or Flayra.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->(2) If a player causes irritation amongst the PT group, or is in the habit of being derisory or contemptuous towards developers or testers, then it stands to reason that we don't want to work with them. Why should someone, who spends hundreds of hours coding each version, want to use a tester who belittles them constantly?
Besides which, a tendancy to use emotive language when arguing a point, indicates a person who is likely to apply the same emotional approach to testing. Finally, the necessary confidence required to play competitively frequently displays itself in the teenage psyche as total arrogance.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is why there should be some form of seperation between the devs and my "ideal" group of PT's...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->(3) Currently we have very little representation of a number of demographic groups in our PT group. This is partly due to socio-economic factors and partly due to simple issues with communication. Whilst we understand that many people think that they would make good testers, we have limited need to further represent the 14-21 year old, white, affluent European/American male demographic in testing right now.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just grab the best players from all over the world. You can go to any large community forums and just ask around who the best players are generally and how to contact them, or within each community there exists individuals with a large knowledge of how the people work there.
This is important but only to represent the player base, but if the people in the said demographics do not meet the dedication and skill requirements then obviously they cannot be put in.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->(4) Skill is important and would be my No. 1 selection criteria for testers, after all other considerations have been met. However, there is no need or point in trying to get game balance spot on in a beta release. As a test group the size of the PTs is insufficient to provide meaningful data. If we feel the need for restricted testing with a trustworthy group, then we have the Constellation members. In reality, the general public can amass more playing hours in a day than a test group can amass in weeks. Besides which, to suggest that the best method of game distribution is to release a balanced game shows both a total ignorance of player psychology and a total misunderstanding of the practicalities of introducing new features into a game.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is arguable that you can never achieve perfect balance, certainly never can you get the type of game everyone wants. So, by this logic you must always be looking for those who best do the insurmontable job that is making the game as good as possible. Saying "Since we are going do multiple beta's, it's alright if our testers cannot find the balance in one beta release, as long as we have a good time in the process!" does not make as much sense as "We seem to have hit a nice ebb of balance with the latest patches. We seem to be done with playtesting 2 weeks before we expected. Perhaps there is more we can fix?" Effenciency is definately more important. This is why at your job you only see the most qualified individuals, not people that just nessesarly "get along"... Otherwise a job would be a playground where everyone gets along.
Every single instance of the best balance in NS has always been done by using the competetive players. I am not surprised, and yet continually you see skill as something that is not only nessesary but almost to a point shunned... ("Wow, you can aim/move, but can you THINK!!!?") Even if the PT's were completely miserable, yet an awesome product was finished and released, would anyone care (your average player)? Most certianly not, and by that definition the process was a success.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->E-Status has nothing to do with it, I know for a fact I do not get my leaked builds from Nem0 or Flayra.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Stop taking yourself so seriously. Do you really think a leaked changelog would be that big a deal? This point is at the top because of the possibility of a code leak. I don't care what you know or think you know; I don't want an unfinished and thus faulty product to spread and spoil it for the gamers.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->That is why there should be some form of seperation between the devs and my "ideal" group of PT's...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Oh yes, that's the solution: Creating barriers. You were one of the loudest in shouting for the devs to listen to the community. Now that Zunni, Joev, and I are in here, answering questions, you tell us to start ignoring people investing hours on a weekly basis for us?
No big argument on three (we're already doing that to an extent), apart from your single-minded focus on 'skill', which brings us to point four:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Saying "Since we are going do multiple beta's, it's alright if our testers cannot find the balance in one beta release, as long as we have a good time in the process!" does not make as much sense as "We seem to have hit a nice ebb of balance with the latest patches. We seem to be done with playtesting 2 weeks before we expected. Perhaps there is more we can fix?"<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I have no idea what those paraphrased quotes have to do with the item Grendel mentioned, but let's get into what you talk about: 'Balance, and why it is only achievable with the most skilled players.' I repeat what Gren and I told you: It is <i>impossible</i> to refine balance beyond a certain point with a group as small as the PTs. It is not their objective. It's telling that you make them "having a good time" sound like a frivulous waste of time. What else is a game supposed to be, if not fun? Making sure that a game mechanic works in the game's context is important. The PTs are there to hunt bugs - an often tedious process that requires calm people willing to necessarily repeat certain practices over a long time. That's a social quality, which is why we are putting emphasis on it. The PTs are supposed to represent diverse playing demographics, yet still voice their - often vastly different - opinions side by side, preferrably without civil war breaking out. That requires social qualities.
I repeat once more: The PTs are not there to finetune balance, so stop explaining to me why only the most skilled, pardon, "efficient" players are necessary for that task. They aren't, but it's a moot point: One could just as well argue that the PTs would suck at selling used cars. Probably right, but who cares?
Thanks for the post, was an interesting and informative read, and its good to know that the PT process involves people who aren't tards, and also care enough about NS to not disclose information.
I do find it funny that someone could suggest skill as being more important that communication or reliability. Consider:
OGM FTW TEH TEETHY NO FAST NEED FAST FTW MARINE CORRDIR KILLZ? LOL NO NEED FAST N1 KTHX
To which one responds with ?
As opposed to -
I'm having a bit of difficulty using skulks, I can't get down corridors to get the marine.
To which someone could respond with "more practice needed"
I don't think that Skill should be an overriding factor. All kinds of people play NS. If it were my game, I'd want people experienced in testing, followed by communication skills, dedication, and then skill. I'd let the player representation metric fill itself, because that's not something you can easily pinch into a group without sacrificing some of the other criteria. But it makes sense to have people of all skillsets and age ranges... Call it a mini-demographic.
The most skilled players are not always the people who should be testing. Everyone should have feedback, but the people who should be testing are the people who communicate effectively regarding goals set down by the devs.
<!--QuoteBegin-Necrosis+Oct 22 2004, 02:36 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Necrosis @ Oct 22 2004, 02:36 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I do find it funny that someone could suggest skill as being more important that communication or reliability. Consider:
OGM FTW TEH TEETHY NO FAST NEED FAST FTW MARINE CORRDIR KILLZ? LOL NO NEED FAST N1 KTHX
To which one responds with ?
As opposed to -
I'm having a bit of difficulty using skulks, I can't get down corridors to get the marine.
To which someone could respond with "more practice needed" <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't see the point in painting such an absurd picture as evidence to back up your point of view. I agree that skill and communication are both very important in being a Playtester, but to prove your example right, please find someone who is active in NS, who earnestly wants to help NS progress, and who speaks like that when they are trying to communicate to others about a possible problem in the game.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Stop taking yourself so seriously. Do you really think a leaked changelog would be that big a deal? This point is at the top because of the possibility of a code leak. I don't care what you know or think you know; I don't want an unfinished and thus faulty product to spread and spoil it for the gamers.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If are concerned about the game itself from being leaked, that only means very trustworthy people at the top. But that excludes PTs, since PT's only have low level access, the real thing are the server files, and beyond that the source to NS. So in that sense PT's do not need to be trustworthy, no?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Oh yes, that's the solution: Creating barriers. You were one of the loudest in shouting for the devs to listen to the community. Now that Zunni, Joev, and I are in here, answering questions, you tell us to start ignoring people investing hours on a weekly basis for now?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, I did not say that. I'm talking about removing a human element from the PT process in order to make it more effecient. Communicating from the public and communicating with those you work with are two differnet things...
Because the argument was that people who are cynical and emotional make bad PTs, yet if you were to remove that human element, then what do you have left? It's just extracting the results instead of having to deal with "asshats"...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I have no idea what those paraphrased quotes have to do with the item Grendel mentioned, but let's get into what you talk about: 'Balance, and why it is only achievable with the most skilled players.' I repeat what Gren and I told you: It is impossible to refine balance beyond a certain point with a group as small as the PTs. It is not their objective. It's telling that you make them "having a good time" sound like a frivulous waste of time. What else is a game supposed to be, if not fun? Making sure that a game mechanic works in the game's context is important. The PTs are there to hunt bugs - an often tedious process that requires calm people willing to necessarily repeat certain practices over a long time. That's a social quality, which is why we are putting emphasis on it. The PTs are supposed to represent diverse playing demographics, yet still voice their - often vastly different - opinions side by side, preferrably without civil war breaking out. That requires social qualities. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is a difference between those who "have a good time", and those who "have a good time by tearing the game apart."
I agree with you that the bughunt that PT's preform is a social quality, that just requires time and persistance.
I also agree that you cannot find true balance within a PT. Thousands will find something that a few could not find. But as far as doing the best job as possible, and making it as good as possible for the mases as possible; the competitive are the ones who achieve this. Why? Because the competitive are the ones who are produced by the masses, they are the ones who rise out of the masses, learning from everyone around them trying to do things as best as possible. As such they have the most accumlated experiences it is no doubt that they also make the best at balancing. But what if it were possible to have those who just wish to have fun and test balance, and also have those who like to have fun, think of new things, and find bugs? Clearly this is a difference in mentality lies. Both are needed and yet there is only one mentality that is given voice now...
If you do not have anyone to find balance then you will always have unbalanced releases. What is the point in this, relying on the masses to find balance when it isn't totally nessesary? It's all about doing the best job possible.
<!--QuoteBegin-Necrosis+Oct 22 2004, 01:36 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Necrosis @ Oct 22 2004, 01:36 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Thanks for the post, was an interesting and informative read, and its good to know that the PT process involves people who aren't tards, and also care enough about NS to not disclose information.
I do find it funny that someone could suggest skill as being more important that communication or reliability. Consider:
OGM FTW TEH TEETHY NO FAST NEED FAST FTW MARINE CORRDIR KILLZ? LOL NO NEED FAST N1 KTHX
To which one responds with ?
As opposed to -
I'm having a bit of difficulty using skulks, I can't get down corridors to get the marine.
To which someone could respond with "more practice needed" <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Strawman arguments do not work.
2) Comprehensible English and the ability to communicate to another without becoming irrational, abusive or sarcastic.
3) Representation of our player base.
4) Skill.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> From top to bottom folks ^_~
1 4 2 3
That's my opinion! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Whoa, lots of people here that know the way this works... right?
When you put communication in the last positions in the list, you know that person doesn't know what's playtesting about...
Or maybe we're wrong, because everyone knows that killing a lot is better than being able to transmit your thoughts in an educated and comprehensible way. Right?
<!--QuoteBegin-Mendasp+Oct 22 2004, 02:58 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mendasp @ Oct 22 2004, 02:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Whoa, lots of people here that know the way this works... right?
When you put communication in the last positions in the list, you know that person doesn't know what's playtesting about...
Or maybe we're wrong, because everyone knows that killing a lot is better than being able to transmit your thoughts in an educated and comprehensible way. Right? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Just because something is last on the list doesn't mean the person being recruited is lacking in that department. If he is, he shouldn't be a PTer in the first place. I'd bet that the list shows that all four categories are required, but the selection process narrows it down even further. I would hope that all the PTers are atleast above-average in all catagories right now though according to what some people are saying, some PTers are lacking in one or more catagories.
Comments
I think competitive play will be balanced by a super team made up of 1. All members of British Parliament between the ages of 50 and 52. 2. A charming, very aged seamstress from Boise, Idaho by the name of Mildred Appelby, but known as "Ma Apples" to her friends and numerous family members. And 3. Forlorn, but Forlorn will only be allowed to play while wearing a helmet with the blast shield down, thus not allowing him to see the game and instead requiring him to use either 'the Force' or 'teh H4x'. This will all be overseen by Grendel and Nem0 who will spend all the PT sessions drinking a curious wine distilled from celery and singing bawdy old seaman's songs as loud as possible over voice comm.
Have I hit the nail on the head?
NO PONCE ALLOWED!
NO PONCE ALLOWED! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Flayra Wears the ponce in the PT-Dev Relationship. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
(Sorry, this was really just random spam, but, I was bored. :X)
I think competitive play will be balanced by a super team made up of 1. All members of British Parliament between the ages of 50 and 52. 2. A charming, very aged seamstress from Boise, Idaho by the name of Mildred Appelby, but known as "Ma Apples" to her friends and numerous family members. And 3. Forlorn, but Forlorn will only be allowed to play while wearing a helmet with the blast shield down, thus not allowing him to see the game and instead requiring him to use either 'the Force' or 'teh H4x'. This will all be overseen by Grendel and Nem0 who will spend all the PT sessions drinking a curious wine distilled from celery and singing bawdy old seaman's songs as loud as possible over voice comm.
Have I hit the nail on the head? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
A very good guess, but as might know, the relationship between NS and Downing Street has somewhat cooled off since Blair stopped returning Fam's calls, so we had to settle for plan B <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
As long as a good product gets out, what cares what methods you use?
Furthermore, the ONLY reason stuff gets leaked is because the people in the process don't trust it.
Therefore, if peopel had representation once again, there would be little reason to leak the info.
I don't have any time to say anything I have to shower and rush to class. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Forlorn's first sentence also 2x
If you're going to present a corporate face to the market, get more guys on the team with a background in PR and such.
Oh come on, Forlorn, at least put up some effort. We've been assembling, adding, and deducting from this group for months in relative silence, and now, that we are making an extended public statement for the first time since the end of the vet's involvement in the process, we're suddenly too focussed on the public image. This is not constructive; hell, it hardly fills the shoes of 'criticism'.
Oh come on, Forlorn, at least put up some effort. We've been assembling, adding, and deducting from this group for months in relative silence, and now, that we are making an extended public statement for the first time since the end of the vet's involvement in the process, we're suddenly too focussed on the public image. This is not constructive; hell, it hardly fills the shoes of 'criticism'. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I mean just look at the requirements...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
1) Reliablility and discretion.
2) Comprehensible English and the ability to communicate to another without becoming irrational, abusive or sarcastic.
3) Representation of our player base.
4) Skill.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
For me that is practically backwards....
I'd rank them like this (top being most important)
4.
1.
3.
2.
They need to be good, but being good is useless if they aren't dedicated to what they do, and they should be from europe, america, etc. Finally them being nice is icing on the cake.
You may say this would lead to a lot of leaked builds, but there is no way to guarentee that. I usually get my info (when I need too) from whoever, they could be nice, they could be mean, doesn't really matter. The point is, all of them are always unsatisfied. That is the number one card that plays into leaking the info.
If people didn't feel like the changelogs didn't have horrible additions, then there would probably be a lot less leaking going around. I know I never spread around word of what the BUS was because I've always liked it.
Just as I've said to Zunni, there are cliques, and that is it. An impact, partially. The impact was that now, they want a new PT team, but the entire point of most of this has been shunned. Skill... lets suggest someone because he says they are a good player, are you, grendel, personally going to pub with each player to see if they go 52-10 like an actually skilled person would in a pub? Or are you going to take their word?
Grendel, a man with an extensive competitive background, gave a likewise extensive explanation for our priorities and their order. If you want to make a point, you'll have to measure it up against that.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Skill... lets suggest someone because he says they are a good player, are you, grendel, personally going to pub with each player to see if they go 52-10 like an actually skilled person would in a pub? Or are you going to take their word?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As you know, the PT additions are invite only. Grendel has ample opportunity to check the players on their own turf.
Oh come on, Forlorn, at least put up some effort. We've been assembling, adding, and deducting from this group for months in relative silence, and now, that we are making an extended public statement for the first time since the end of the vet's involvement in the process, we're suddenly too focussed on the public image. This is not constructive; hell, it hardly fills the shoes of 'criticism'. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I mean just look at the requirements...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
1) Reliablility and discretion.
2) Comprehensible English and the ability to communicate to another without becoming irrational, abusive or sarcastic.
3) Representation of our player base.
4) Skill.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
For me that is practically backwards....
I'd rank them like this (top being most important)
4.
1.
3.
2.
They need to be good, but being good is useless if they aren't dedicated to what they do, and they should be from europe, america, etc. Finally them being nice is icing on the cake. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
slighty shocked to see that the most revered and amiable natural selection player of all time has ranked these qualities so low
I mean I can understand contributers such as mappers, modelers, sound artists, etc... Being PT's even if they pretty much do nothing. But when you have people who rarely play the game. Or don't even play yet they continue to have PT. They don't contribute anything and they take up space. What the hell is the point of having them there.
And despite what this post says Grendel some of the more recent PT recruitments have contradicted almost all of them. Not that I'm going to point fingers or anything.
There are some people who retain PT status for honorary reasons - we will, for example, reserve a spot for KFS, though it's unlikely he'll be able to truly participate in the next time. Otherwise, we're removing PTs either on their request (as happened with, for example, eggmac, who I've got to say I was very sad to see go), or when we add another batch of new faces. I've got to admit that my move held me up a little in this not very nice duty, but I'm getting back into swing.
As for your issues with single PTs, you are always welcome to file complaints via PM, though I can not guarantee we'll act on them.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->(1) Now I know that some of you will be going "WTH? skill is teh m05t! teh h4x is where it's at, baby1!!!".
Well, no. First and foremost, we need people who won't leak builds and people who we can trust. That automatically puts a number of individuals out of the running. The higher the e-status of the individual, the more prone they are to leak information. If an individual has already proven to the development team through their actions in the community that they are unable to keep things to themselves, then they are never going to get a testing slot. Many of the more suitable candidates for testing due to their skill or knowledge have already disqualified themselves on these grounds.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
From my edited post one page ago:
"You may say this would lead to a lot of leaked builds, but there is no way to guarentee that. I usually get my info (when I need too) from whoever, they could be nice, they could be mean, doesn't really matter. The point is, all of them are always unsatisfied. That is the number one card that plays into leaking the info.
If people didn't feel like the changelogs didn't have horrible additions, then there would probably be a lot less leaking going around. I know I never spread around word of what the BUS was because I've always liked it."
E-Status has nothing to do with it, I know for a fact I do not get my leaked builds from Nem0 or Flayra.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->(2) If a player causes irritation amongst the PT group, or is in the habit of being derisory or contemptuous towards developers or testers, then it stands to reason that we don't want to work with them. Why should someone, who spends hundreds of hours coding each version, want to use a tester who belittles them constantly?
Besides which, a tendancy to use emotive language when arguing a point, indicates a person who is likely to apply the same emotional approach to testing. Finally, the necessary confidence required to play competitively frequently displays itself in the teenage psyche as total arrogance.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is why there should be some form of seperation between the devs and my "ideal" group of PT's...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->(3) Currently we have very little representation of a number of demographic groups in our PT group. This is partly due to socio-economic factors and partly due to simple issues with communication. Whilst we understand that many people think that they would make good testers, we have limited need to further represent the 14-21 year old, white, affluent European/American male demographic in testing right now.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just grab the best players from all over the world. You can go to any large community forums and just ask around who the best players are generally and how to contact them, or within each community there exists individuals with a large knowledge of how the people work there.
This is important but only to represent the player base, but if the people in the said demographics do not meet the dedication and skill requirements then obviously they cannot be put in.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->(4) Skill is important and would be my No. 1 selection criteria for testers, after all other considerations have been met. However, there is no need or point in trying to get game balance spot on in a beta release. As a test group the size of the PTs is insufficient to provide meaningful data. If we feel the need for restricted testing with a trustworthy group, then we have the Constellation members. In reality, the general public can amass more playing hours in a day than a test group can amass in weeks. Besides which, to suggest that the best method of game distribution is to release a balanced game shows both a total ignorance of player psychology and a total misunderstanding of the practicalities of introducing new features into a game.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is arguable that you can never achieve perfect balance, certainly never can you get the type of game everyone wants. So, by this logic you must always be looking for those who best do the insurmontable job that is making the game as good as possible. Saying "Since we are going do multiple beta's, it's alright if our testers cannot find the balance in one beta release, as long as we have a good time in the process!" does not make as much sense as "We seem to have hit a nice ebb of balance with the latest patches. We seem to be done with playtesting 2 weeks before we expected. Perhaps there is more we can fix?"
Effenciency is definately more important. This is why at your job you only see the most qualified individuals, not people that just nessesarly "get along"... Otherwise a job would be a playground where everyone gets along.
Every single instance of the best balance in NS has always been done by using the competetive players. I am not surprised, and yet continually you see skill as something that is not only nessesary but almost to a point shunned... ("Wow, you can aim/move, but can you THINK!!!?")
Even if the PT's were completely miserable, yet an awesome product was finished and released, would anyone care (your average player)? Most certianly not, and by that definition the process was a success.
Does anyone want anymore explanation? <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Stop taking yourself so seriously. Do you really think a leaked changelog would be that big a deal? This point is at the top because of the possibility of a code leak. I don't care what you know or think you know; I don't want an unfinished and thus faulty product to spread and spoil it for the gamers.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->That is why there should be some form of seperation between the devs and my "ideal" group of PT's...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh yes, that's the solution: Creating barriers. You were one of the loudest in shouting for the devs to listen to the community. Now that Zunni, Joev, and I are in here, answering questions, you tell us to start ignoring people investing hours on a weekly basis for us?
No big argument on three (we're already doing that to an extent), apart from your single-minded focus on 'skill', which brings us to point four:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Saying "Since we are going do multiple beta's, it's alright if our testers cannot find the balance in one beta release, as long as we have a good time in the process!" does not make as much sense as "We seem to have hit a nice ebb of balance with the latest patches. We seem to be done with playtesting 2 weeks before we expected. Perhaps there is more we can fix?"<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have no idea what those paraphrased quotes have to do with the item Grendel mentioned, but let's get into what you talk about: 'Balance, and why it is only achievable with the most skilled players.'
I repeat what Gren and I told you: It is <i>impossible</i> to refine balance beyond a certain point with a group as small as the PTs. It is not their objective. It's telling that you make them "having a good time" sound like a frivulous waste of time. What else is a game supposed to be, if not fun? Making sure that a game mechanic works in the game's context is important.
The PTs are there to hunt bugs - an often tedious process that requires calm people willing to necessarily repeat certain practices over a long time. That's a social quality, which is why we are putting emphasis on it.
The PTs are supposed to represent diverse playing demographics, yet still voice their - often vastly different - opinions side by side, preferrably without civil war breaking out. That requires social qualities.
I repeat once more: The PTs are not there to finetune balance, so stop explaining to me why only the most skilled, pardon, "efficient" players are necessary for that task. They aren't, but it's a moot point: One could just as well argue that the PTs would suck at selling used cars. Probably right, but who cares?
I do find it funny that someone could suggest skill as being more important that communication or reliability. Consider:
OGM FTW TEH TEETHY NO FAST NEED FAST FTW MARINE CORRDIR KILLZ? LOL NO NEED FAST N1 KTHX
To which one responds with ?
As opposed to -
I'm having a bit of difficulty using skulks, I can't get down corridors to get the marine.
To which someone could respond with "more practice needed"
The most skilled players are not always the people who should be testing. Everyone should have feedback, but the people who should be testing are the people who communicate effectively regarding goals set down by the devs.
OGM FTW TEH TEETHY NO FAST NEED FAST FTW MARINE CORRDIR KILLZ? LOL NO NEED FAST N1 KTHX
To which one responds with ?
As opposed to -
I'm having a bit of difficulty using skulks, I can't get down corridors to get the marine.
To which someone could respond with "more practice needed" <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't see the point in painting such an absurd picture as evidence to back up your point of view. I agree that skill and communication are both very important in being a Playtester, but to prove your example right, please find someone who is active in NS, who earnestly wants to help NS progress, and who speaks like that when they are trying to communicate to others about a possible problem in the game.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Stop taking yourself so seriously. Do you really think a leaked changelog would be that big a deal? This point is at the top because of the possibility of a code leak. I don't care what you know or think you know; I don't want an unfinished and thus faulty product to spread and spoil it for the gamers.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If are concerned about the game itself from being leaked, that only means very trustworthy people at the top. But that excludes PTs, since PT's only have low level access, the real thing are the server files, and beyond that the source to NS. So in that sense PT's do not need to be trustworthy, no?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Oh yes, that's the solution: Creating barriers. You were one of the loudest in shouting for the devs to listen to the community. Now that Zunni, Joev, and I are in here, answering questions, you tell us to start ignoring people investing hours on a weekly basis for now?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, I did not say that. I'm talking about removing a human element from the PT process in order to make it more effecient. Communicating from the public and communicating with those you work with are two differnet things...
Because the argument was that people who are cynical and emotional make bad PTs, yet if you were to remove that human element, then what do you have left? It's just extracting the results instead of having to deal with "asshats"...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I have no idea what those paraphrased quotes have to do with the item Grendel mentioned, but let's get into what you talk about: 'Balance, and why it is only achievable with the most skilled players.'
I repeat what Gren and I told you: It is impossible to refine balance beyond a certain point with a group as small as the PTs. It is not their objective. It's telling that you make them "having a good time" sound like a frivulous waste of time. What else is a game supposed to be, if not fun? Making sure that a game mechanic works in the game's context is important.
The PTs are there to hunt bugs - an often tedious process that requires calm people willing to necessarily repeat certain practices over a long time. That's a social quality, which is why we are putting emphasis on it.
The PTs are supposed to represent diverse playing demographics, yet still voice their - often vastly different - opinions side by side, preferrably without civil war breaking out. That requires social qualities. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is a difference between those who "have a good time", and those who "have a good time by tearing the game apart."
I agree with you that the bughunt that PT's preform is a social quality, that just requires time and persistance.
I also agree that you cannot find true balance within a PT. Thousands will find something that a few could not find.
But as far as doing the best job as possible, and making it as good as possible for the mases as possible; the competitive are the ones who achieve this.
Why? Because the competitive are the ones who are produced by the masses, they are the ones who rise out of the masses, learning from everyone around them trying to do things as best as possible. As such they have the most accumlated experiences it is no doubt that they also make the best at balancing.
But what if it were possible to have those who just wish to have fun and test balance, and also have those who like to have fun, think of new things, and find bugs? Clearly this is a difference in mentality lies. Both are needed and yet there is only one mentality that is given voice now...
If you do not have anyone to find balance then you will always have unbalanced releases. What is the point in this, relying on the masses to find balance when it isn't totally nessesary? It's all about doing the best job possible.
I do find it funny that someone could suggest skill as being more important that communication or reliability. Consider:
OGM FTW TEH TEETHY NO FAST NEED FAST FTW MARINE CORRDIR KILLZ? LOL NO NEED FAST N1 KTHX
To which one responds with ?
As opposed to -
I'm having a bit of difficulty using skulks, I can't get down corridors to get the marine.
To which someone could respond with "more practice needed" <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Strawman arguments do not work.
1) Reliablility and discretion.
2) Comprehensible English and the ability to communicate to another without becoming irrational, abusive or sarcastic.
3) Representation of our player base.
4) Skill.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
From top to bottom folks ^_~
1
4
2
3
That's my opinion! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
When you put communication in the last positions in the list, you know that person doesn't know what's playtesting about...
Or maybe we're wrong, because everyone knows that killing a lot is better than being able to transmit your thoughts in an educated and comprehensible way. Right?
When you put communication in the last positions in the list, you know that person doesn't know what's playtesting about...
Or maybe we're wrong, because everyone knows that killing a lot is better than being able to transmit your thoughts in an educated and comprehensible way. Right? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just because something is last on the list doesn't mean the person being recruited is lacking in that department. If he is, he shouldn't be a PTer in the first place. I'd bet that the list shows that all four categories are required, but the selection process narrows it down even further. I would hope that all the PTers are atleast above-average in all catagories right now though according to what some people are saying, some PTers are lacking in one or more catagories.