way to degrade someone's opinion, o paragons of NS community ethics. nowhere did I specify exactly what it was about the fade that made it much deadlier in the hands of a vet. also, nowhere did I say that I sucked (I like how you assumed that) finally, to the person who said "It's no excuse to continue sucking," you are forgetting that new players join the mod. Those new players will most likely not be good at the game at first. When you have a constant influx of unskilled new players, it just might be a good idea to make a game that accomodates THEM so that they don't leave after being slaughtered by a vet who stopped by the server.
the point I am trying to make is that when you have a game that's playtested by an exclusive group of people, you'll end up with the game being tailored to that exclusive group of people. You can find examples of this anywhere you like, be it vet dominance of the fade class, or the unintuitive and difficult design of the commander interface, or the jetpack, or any issue that you might want to find. I know you will pick me apart on those 3 examples that I just listed, but I don't care -- the point is the same; with playtesters being skilled players, NS becomes a game "by the vets, for the vets."
That's a really good point you make there Jas0, skilled players are almost always already dedicated. Skilled players do not get that way just by concidence, they have to work at it.
<!--QuoteBegin-Windelkron+Oct 24 2004, 11:48 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Windelkron @ Oct 24 2004, 11:48 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> way to degrade someone's opinion, o paragons of NS community ethics. nowhere did I specify exactly what it was about the fade that made it much deadlier in the hands of a vet. also, nowhere did I say that I sucked (I like how you assumed that) finally, to the person who said "It's no excuse to continue sucking," you are forgetting that new players join the mod. Those new players will most likely not be good at the game at first. When you have a constant influx of unskilled new players, it just might be a good idea to make a game that accomodates THEM so that they don't leave after being slaughtered by a vet who stopped by the server.
the point I am trying to make is that when you have a game that's playtested by an exclusive group of people, you'll end up with the game being tailored to that exclusive group of people. You can find examples of this anywhere you like, be it vet dominance of the fade class, or the unintuitive and difficult design of the commander interface, or the jetpack, or any issue that you might want to find. I know you will pick me apart on those 3 examples that I just listed, but I don't care -- the point is the same; with playtesters being skilled players, NS becomes a game "by the vets, for the vets." <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would like to point out at all other popular games do not need to be newbie friendly and are still very popular with multi-hundred thousand dollar prizes...
CS for example, is not newbie friendly at all, and yet it's the most popular online FPS in the world. Go figure? You die and have to wait 5 min before you can try again on your average pub. Campers always have the advantage. It's slower paced. Professional CS players never miss a headshot and the difference between them and their average pub is so large that singlehandedly they could take on 6 or 7 other players and win. That's how large the skill difference is. And yet, I hardly think that CS is a game "by the vets, for the vets". The reality is skilled players make the game better for everyone.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> but I don't care -- the point is the same; with playtesters being skilled players, NS becomes a game "by the vets, for the vets."<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wrong - vets generally play the game a lot more than your average joe, therefore they <i>should</i> know the game inside out, and know where things need changing; due to bias on a team// balance tweaks// places where maps need to be rethought.
The vets simply dont want the game to breakdown, due to bad, unaided input, which some of the playtesters might give, due to them not being skilled at the game - and only doing something like mapping therefore being allowed to playtest.
<!--QuoteBegin-Jas0+Oct 24 2004, 05:55 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Jas0 @ Oct 24 2004, 05:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The vets simply dont want the game to breakdown, due to bad, unaided input, which some of the playtesters might give, due to them not being skilled at the game - and only doing something like mapping therefore being allowed to playtest. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Not disagreeing with your point, but seeing as you're an active figure in the euro clan scene, I suggest you check the PT list and rethink that statement. There's a lot of skilled euro players, and there were a lot of skilled US players that have become less active.
The majority of you is still missing the point that the PT's job isn't to balance the game, though we can try, it really isn't what we're here to do, even though some of us wish otherwise.
And honestly, if a bad player on the PT forum started suggestion stupid things, do you really think he'd be a PT for much longer, or even listened to? Some PT's might be there due to being contributors (Mappers, modellers, sound artists, etc), but the majority of those players were PT's before they did any of that.
i remind you, that i am not an official representative of the playtesting management team, or the development team.
----------------------------- <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> 1) Reliablility and discretion. 2) Comprehensible English and the ability to communicate to another without becoming irrational, abusive or sarcastic. 3) Representation of our player base. 4) Skill. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> This order is correct, and here are my arguments for their order.
<b>1) Reliablility and discretion.</b> Reliablility(1): If you have a playtester that is un-relaible, for example one that will not come to scheduled playtests (even if they are available) why would you want them as a playtester?
Reliablility(2): There is a certain maturity required to playtest this game, if that said person proves themself to be mature enough to become a playtester, but is still yet not mature enough to stand still to follow directions, again, why would you want them as a tester?(i was in a PT with the vets when one person was removed from the PT group for moving around when flayra had instructed us to stand still in the ready room several times)
Discretion: There are many bugs in the test builds that are currently present in the public build, only difference is that in the beta/test version, there is open discussion on how to reproduce and cause said exploit/bug. if the playtester were to leak that information they could ruin a large amount of publice games and ruin the 'ns experiance' for a new player. something that as a public image, is un-acceptable for a tester to do.
<b>2) Comprehensible English and the ability to communicate to another without becoming irrational, abusive or sarcastic.</b> Comprehensible English: If you have the most reliable, descreet, skillful player, but is unable to tell you the problems that they see in a form that you can understand, then what is the point of allowing that person to test the game, the point of the playtesters is to find, reproduce and report said bugs, without a level of communication, this process is not possible.
ability to communicate to another without becoming irrational, abusive or sarcastic: This one comes up alot when people take arguments personal. To provide optimal feedback, you must remain subjective.
without becoming abusive: use of fould language is prohibited here on the forums, if you feel passionate about your point of view on a discussion, which sometimes comes up and is discussed on IRC, the in places where the use of abusive language is not prohibited or automatically filtered, you discredit your point of view by the use of un-professional and mature language.
<b>3) Representation of our player base.</b> i'll keep this one short, if we test with JUST the 'vets' we would not have a balanced game for the pubs, and as nem0 has stated, clanning balance is not the #1 priority of the testing group. a mix of skill base is optimum for testing, since it is in fact a scaled down version of the larger public player base
<b>4) Skill.</b> this my friend, is on the list because it has to be. not because it is important, but because it is a component of playing the game.
Scenario: You use up your full LMG clip, your Full Pistol Clip, and still do not manage to kill the skulk walking straight at you... congrats, your a first time NSplayer you use up half your pistol clip, and you've killed a skulk, congrats... your a regular player You use up your full LMG clip, your Full pistol clip, and you've already killed half the alien team, congrats... your a vet
in each scenario the only difference is the skill. i would like to see where in any of those scenarios the testing actually goes on. we are testing bugs, not how good of a player you are in comparison to the other PTs.
i am a marginal player, i know what to do, i know how to do it and i know the game, i am by far not 'vet' or am i 'NSplayer' but my wandering around and testing bugs and atempting to reproduce them generates the information enough to help in the development of the game. Competitions is where you will see skill being the #1 impotant part of the game, never will you see that in a casual game.
-----------------------------
i remind you, that i am not an official representative of the playtesting management team, or the development team. these words come from my mouth as a regular forum user/player. my english skills are a little weak at the moment because i might have just messed up the rest of my life, but ya know, it's to be expected under the cercumstances. (gotta make sure you guys know this isn't anything official or what not...)
<!--QuoteBegin-Delarosa+Oct 24 2004, 02:42 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Delarosa @ Oct 24 2004, 02:42 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> (i was in a PT with the vets when one person was removed from the PT group for moving around when flayra had instructed us to stand still in the ready room several times)
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Wow that happened so many times with Grendel in the 1.1 testing. Twenty-something people jumping around the ready room until he tells everyone to shutup and not move or they'd be removed from the vet program. Then the next minute was spent with Grendel trying to figure out who was the guy who clicked his flashlight on and off really fast. Ahh good times.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Not disagreeing with your point, but seeing as you're an active figure in the euro clan scene, I suggest you check the PT list and rethink that statement. There's a lot of skilled euro players, and there were a lot of skilled US players that have become less active.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> There are?... hmm
The only one i can think of is eBnar (ebnar). Hes the only skilled playtester i can think of in the EU, all the others <b>personally</b> i wouldnt class them as high skilled.
<!--QuoteBegin-Jas0+Oct 24 2004, 04:08 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Jas0 @ Oct 24 2004, 04:08 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Not disagreeing with your point, but seeing as you're an active figure in the euro clan scene, I suggest you check the PT list and rethink that statement. There's a lot of skilled euro players, and there were a lot of skilled US players that have become less active.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> There are?... hmm
The only one i can think of is eBnar (ebnar). Hes the only skilled playtester i can think of in the EU, all the others <b>personally</b> i wouldnt class them as high skilled. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I wouldn't discount Shockwave, he's a lot better than he used to be. A LOT. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
The only one i can think of is eBnar (ebnar). Hes the only skilled playtester i can think of in the EU, all the others <b>personally</b> i wouldnt class them as high skilled. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> wltrs? Reavz?
And then there's hellbilly and MrBen who are pretty damned good with a good ping.
Basically I agree with Del, or Del agrees with me, or some combination of those two statements.
Anyone trying to claim otherwise really hasn't figured out what playtesters are meant to do.
Some will never learn <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
The only one i can think of is eBnar (ebnar). Hes the only skilled playtester i can think of in the EU, all the others <b>personally</b> i wouldnt class them as high skilled. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> wltrs? Reavz?
And then there's hellbilly and MrBen who are pretty damned good with a good ping. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Hellbilly is deadly no matter what day of the week it is.
Mr. Ben has his days: Sometimes anyone can pwn him, sometimes he's like lucid from 1.04 days.
<!--QuoteBegin-BobTheJanitor+Oct 22 2004, 03:59 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BobTheJanitor @ Oct 22 2004, 03:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-Blue Mary+Oct 22 2004, 01:55 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Blue Mary @ Oct 22 2004, 01:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I don't think race/gender/ethnicity matter much to people who want a balanced game that is fun for all. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> And you don't think you might be able to bring another point of view to the table that may not be represented elsewhere? The more points of view that are available, the more well rounded the final product.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The reason why not many girls play this game has VERY little to do with the actual game, it's all about how they get<i> treated</i> when the play the game. (and I'll leave it at that, other than my below example)
Example: My roommate (female) and I started playing NS roughly around the same time. I quickly found that finding a reliable regular server to play on should be made a top priority so that my treatment would be consistent day to day (just from using a female name (Jane) I had to put up with all kinds of ridiculous comments, this problem was further exasperated by introducing a mic into the equasion – but I’m not going to get into that.) By reliable server I mean admins who don’t put up with poor treatment of females, you’d be so very surprised how hard it was to find my first regular server (don’t turn this into a come to my server I’m not like that). My friend, who had a gender-neutral name “Turkey” then “Hokie Bird” (our school mascot) had to put up with comments because she had a female like nature, and some feminine comments. Since she played on random servers and had to put up with more crap (admins not dealing with these problems etc.), she gave up on the game after about 3-4 months (moved on to D&D and now S&I – which I will comment both have a very female friendly community). This is the best example I can think of to explain female involvement in NS, it’s not a universal mindset, just an example; I hope it helps.
QuaunautThe longest seven days in history...Join Date: 2003-03-21Member: 14759Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
<!--QuoteBegin-Jane+Oct 24 2004, 04:35 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Jane @ Oct 24 2004, 04:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-BobTheJanitor+Oct 22 2004, 03:59 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BobTheJanitor @ Oct 22 2004, 03:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-Blue Mary+Oct 22 2004, 01:55 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Blue Mary @ Oct 22 2004, 01:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I don't think race/gender/ethnicity matter much to people who want a balanced game that is fun for all. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> And you don't think you might be able to bring another point of view to the table that may not be represented elsewhere? The more points of view that are available, the more well rounded the final product.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The reason why not many girls play this game has VERY little to do with the actual game, it's all about how they get<i> treated</i> when the play the game. (and I'll leave it at that, other than my below example)
Example: My roommate (female) and I started playing NS roughly around the same time. I quickly found that finding a reliable regular server to play on should be made a top priority so that my treatment would be consistent day to day (just from using a female name (Jane) I had to put up with all kinds of ridiculous comments, this problem was further exasperated by introducing a mic into the equasion – but I’m not going to get into that.) By reliable server I mean admins who don’t put up with poor treatment of females, you’d be so very surprised how hard it was to find my first regular server (don’t turn this into a come to my server I’m not like that). My friend, who had a gender-neutral name “Turkey” then “Hokie Bird” (our school mascot) had to put up with comments because she had a female like nature, and some feminine comments. Since she played on random servers and had to put up with more crap (admins not dealing with these problems etc.), she gave up on the game after about 3-4 months (moved on to D&D and now S&I – which I will comment both have a very female friendly community). This is the best example I can think of to explain female involvement in NS, it’s not a universal mindset, just an example; I hope it helps. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> That really is a major problem I've found.
...but Jane, why'd you leave Lunix? We treated you well there, didn't we? We treat Athena well... D:
Ok, so i missed out that wltrs got Playtesters, who is undoubtably one of the best in the EU, pretty much everyone knows that. Ive only just seen Reavz with it. However some people, ie Mr Ben for example, do not get close to representing the skilled part of the NS community in the EU, i would dread people to even think it.
<!--QuoteBegin-Jane+Oct 24 2004, 07:35 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Jane @ Oct 24 2004, 07:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-BobTheJanitor+Oct 22 2004, 03:59 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BobTheJanitor @ Oct 22 2004, 03:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-Blue Mary+Oct 22 2004, 01:55 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Blue Mary @ Oct 22 2004, 01:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I don't think race/gender/ethnicity matter much to people who want a balanced game that is fun for all. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> And you don't think you might be able to bring another point of view to the table that may not be represented elsewhere? The more points of view that are available, the more well rounded the final product.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The reason why not many girls play this game has VERY little to do with the actual game, it's all about how they get<i> treated</i> when the play the game. (and I'll leave it at that, other than my below example)
Example: My roommate (female) and I started playing NS roughly around the same time. I quickly found that finding a reliable regular server to play on should be made a top priority so that my treatment would be consistent day to day (just from using a female name (Jane) I had to put up with all kinds of ridiculous comments, this problem was further exasperated by introducing a mic into the equasion – but I’m not going to get into that.) By reliable server I mean admins who don’t put up with poor treatment of females, you’d be so very surprised how hard it was to find my first regular server (don’t turn this into a come to my server I’m not like that). My friend, who had a gender-neutral name “Turkey” then “Hokie Bird” (our school mascot) had to put up with comments because she had a female like nature, and some feminine comments. Since she played on random servers and had to put up with more crap (admins not dealing with these problems etc.), she gave up on the game after about 3-4 months (moved on to D&D and now S&I – which I will comment both have a very female friendly community). This is the best example I can think of to explain female involvement in NS, it’s not a universal mindset, just an example; I hope it helps. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Did you consider attempting to be gender neutral as possible? I mean, you don't see people as "QUEER AND PROUD - Nsplayer" or "Jewish Fade" or "African Marine" and actually mean it. You should know by now that gamers will be insulted for any little personal detail revealed about themselves.
<!--QuoteBegin-rennex+Oct 24 2004, 11:25 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (rennex @ Oct 24 2004, 11:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Jane+Oct 24 2004, 07:35 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Jane @ Oct 24 2004, 07:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-BobTheJanitor+Oct 22 2004, 03:59 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BobTheJanitor @ Oct 22 2004, 03:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-Blue Mary+Oct 22 2004, 01:55 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Blue Mary @ Oct 22 2004, 01:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I don't think race/gender/ethnicity matter much to people who want a balanced game that is fun for all. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> And you don't think you might be able to bring another point of view to the table that may not be represented elsewhere? The more points of view that are available, the more well rounded the final product.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The reason why not many girls play this game has VERY little to do with the actual game, it's all about how they get<i> treated</i> when the play the game. (and I'll leave it at that, other than my below example)
Example: My roommate (female) and I started playing NS roughly around the same time. I quickly found that finding a reliable regular server to play on should be made a top priority so that my treatment would be consistent day to day (just from using a female name (Jane) I had to put up with all kinds of ridiculous comments, this problem was further exasperated by introducing a mic into the equasion – but I’m not going to get into that.) By reliable server I mean admins who don’t put up with poor treatment of females, you’d be so very surprised how hard it was to find my first regular server (don’t turn this into a come to my server I’m not like that). My friend, who had a gender-neutral name “Turkey” then “Hokie Bird” (our school mascot) had to put up with comments because she had a female like nature, and some feminine comments. Since she played on random servers and had to put up with more crap (admins not dealing with these problems etc.), she gave up on the game after about 3-4 months (moved on to D&D and now S&I – which I will comment both have a very female friendly community). This is the best example I can think of to explain female involvement in NS, it’s not a universal mindset, just an example; I hope it helps. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Did you consider attempting to be gender neutral as possible? I mean, you don't see people as "QUEER AND PROUD - Nsplayer" or "Jewish Fade" or "African Marine" and actually mean it. You should know by now that gamers will be insulted for any little personal detail revealed about themselves. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Like you being a mexican?
<!--QuoteBegin-The_IRS+Oct 25 2004, 12:34 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (The_IRS @ Oct 25 2004, 12:34 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-rennex+Oct 24 2004, 11:25 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (rennex @ Oct 24 2004, 11:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Jane+Oct 24 2004, 07:35 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Jane @ Oct 24 2004, 07:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-BobTheJanitor+Oct 22 2004, 03:59 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BobTheJanitor @ Oct 22 2004, 03:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-Blue Mary+Oct 22 2004, 01:55 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Blue Mary @ Oct 22 2004, 01:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I don't think race/gender/ethnicity matter much to people who want a balanced game that is fun for all. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> And you don't think you might be able to bring another point of view to the table that may not be represented elsewhere? The more points of view that are available, the more well rounded the final product.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The reason why not many girls play this game has VERY little to do with the actual game, it's all about how they get<i> treated</i> when the play the game. (and I'll leave it at that, other than my below example)
Example: My roommate (female) and I started playing NS roughly around the same time. I quickly found that finding a reliable regular server to play on should be made a top priority so that my treatment would be consistent day to day (just from using a female name (Jane) I had to put up with all kinds of ridiculous comments, this problem was further exasperated by introducing a mic into the equasion – but I’m not going to get into that.) By reliable server I mean admins who don’t put up with poor treatment of females, you’d be so very surprised how hard it was to find my first regular server (don’t turn this into a come to my server I’m not like that). My friend, who had a gender-neutral name “Turkey” then “Hokie Bird” (our school mascot) had to put up with comments because she had a female like nature, and some feminine comments. Since she played on random servers and had to put up with more crap (admins not dealing with these problems etc.), she gave up on the game after about 3-4 months (moved on to D&D and now S&I – which I will comment both have a very female friendly community). This is the best example I can think of to explain female involvement in NS, it’s not a universal mindset, just an example; I hope it helps. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Did you consider attempting to be gender neutral as possible? I mean, you don't see people as "QUEER AND PROUD - Nsplayer" or "Jewish Fade" or "African Marine" and actually mean it. You should know by now that gamers will be insulted for any little personal detail revealed about themselves. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Like you being a mexican? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Make this man a PT <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-rennex+Oct 25 2004, 12:25 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (rennex @ Oct 25 2004, 12:25 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Jane+Oct 24 2004, 07:35 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Jane @ Oct 24 2004, 07:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-BobTheJanitor+Oct 22 2004, 03:59 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BobTheJanitor @ Oct 22 2004, 03:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-Blue Mary+Oct 22 2004, 01:55 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Blue Mary @ Oct 22 2004, 01:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I don't think race/gender/ethnicity matter much to people who want a balanced game that is fun for all. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> And you don't think you might be able to bring another point of view to the table that may not be represented elsewhere? The more points of view that are available, the more well rounded the final product.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The reason why not many girls play this game has VERY little to do with the actual game, it's all about how they get<i> treated</i> when the play the game. (and I'll leave it at that, other than my below example)
Example: My roommate (female) and I started playing NS roughly around the same time. I quickly found that finding a reliable regular server to play on should be made a top priority so that my treatment would be consistent day to day (just from using a female name (Jane) I had to put up with all kinds of ridiculous comments, this problem was further exasperated by introducing a mic into the equasion – but I’m not going to get into that.) By reliable server I mean admins who don’t put up with poor treatment of females, you’d be so very surprised how hard it was to find my first regular server (don’t turn this into a come to my server I’m not like that). My friend, who had a gender-neutral name “Turkey” then “Hokie Bird” (our school mascot) had to put up with comments because she had a female like nature, and some feminine comments. Since she played on random servers and had to put up with more crap (admins not dealing with these problems etc.), she gave up on the game after about 3-4 months (moved on to D&D and now S&I – which I will comment both have a very female friendly community). This is the best example I can think of to explain female involvement in NS, it’s not a universal mindset, just an example; I hope it helps. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Did you consider attempting to be gender neutral as possible? I mean, you don't see people as "QUEER AND PROUD - Nsplayer" or "Jewish Fade" or "African Marine" and actually mean it. You should know by now that gamers will be insulted for any little personal detail revealed about themselves. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually no, I wanted to play as Jane, and if people couldn't accept me as that I would just stop playing. I think a lot of the crap my friend had to deal with was because she "had a male name" (though it was gender neutral) but acted like a female. I acted female, and sounded female, and there was no reason not to use my name. I also didn't really understand the point behind aliasing, this was the first online game I had ever played, and for all rpgs and such I always use the name Jane, even when the main player is male which is typically the case.
Also Mr.Ben, don't listen to him, that part of his post will be nuked soon enough. You know we all love you.
<!--QuoteBegin-Jas0+Oct 25 2004, 05:14 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Jas0 @ Oct 25 2004, 05:14 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Ok, so i missed out that wltrs got Playtesters, who is undoubtably one of the best in the EU, pretty much everyone knows that. Ive only just seen Reavz with it. However some people, ie Mr Ben for example, do not get close to representing the skilled part of the NS community in the EU, i would dread people to even think it.
:x Im sorry but might as well be honest. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Funny how you critisize other people, yet are no skilled player yourself.
And by the way, why discuss some persons skill, if skill doesn't really matter?
<!--QuoteBegin-gopher+Oct 25 2004, 07:58 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (gopher @ Oct 25 2004, 07:58 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Jas0+Oct 25 2004, 05:14 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Jas0 @ Oct 25 2004, 05:14 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Ok, so i missed out that wltrs got Playtesters, who is undoubtably one of the best in the EU, pretty much everyone knows that. Ive only just seen Reavz with it. However some people, ie Mr Ben for example, do not get close to representing the skilled part of the NS community in the EU, i would dread people to even think it.
:x Im sorry but might as well be honest. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Funny how you critisize other people, yet are no skilled player yourself.
And by the way, why discuss some persons skill, if skill doesn't really matter? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The thing is, if skill doesn't matter because PT's do not balance the game, who does? How can you balance something when there's no clear indication of the next step to take?
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Oct 25 2004, 03:06 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Oct 25 2004, 03:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The thing is, if skill doesn't matter because PT's do not balance the game, who does? How can you balance something when there's no clear indication of the next step to take? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> That wasn't my personal opinion, but grendels pt requirements. I'm not going to argue about if skill is needed to balance a game or not, as all points have been already made in this thread over and over again <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> I just wanted to comment on jas0s post.
<!--QuoteBegin-Jane+Oct 26 2004, 12:05 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Jane @ Oct 26 2004, 12:05 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Actually no, I wanted to play as Jane, and if people couldn't accept me as that I would just stop playing. I think a lot of the crap my friend had to deal with was because she "had a male name" (though it was gender neutral) but acted like a female. I acted female, and sounded female, and there was no reason not to use my name. I also didn't really understand the point behind aliasing, this was the first online game I had ever played, and for all rpgs and such I always use the name Jane, even when the main player is male which is typically the case.
Also Mr.Ben, don't listen to him, that part of his post will be nuked soon enough. You know we all love you. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Jane, the way you've been treated is not cool at all, and it shows a lot about the number of idiots in online multiplayer gaming. However, if you are just going to stop playing if people say nasty things to you, then you might as well quit now.
This is pretty much akin to living in England and refusing to go to work if it rains. Its going to rain, a lot. Unless you find a really great community or get a hold of admin status somewhere, meeting and suffering abuse from tards are your destiny if you insist on keeping that name.
Wow, so many things I can quote and make a post, but I'll stick with somthing I feel more at home with.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->No one questions Blizzard when South Koreans answer their questions.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> (Not the exact quote but close to it.)
Too bad the South Koreans don't balance the games. (Anymore.) It's mostly their message boards filled with flamers/trolls who are making the balance changes.
"OGM BLADEMASTER SUX!!111" Got like 50 of these topics a day till they totally buffed the blademaster.
Next people complained that the BloodMage was worthless. Around 30 of these topics a day. Needless to say, the BloodMage got buffed.
I'm not saying they needed buffs. I'm just saying that with 30+ topics asking for somthing on those boards that they will 100% make a change to what the topics are asking.
The South Koreans disagreed completely with these changes, as well as pro / skilled players.
Blizzard cares too much about casual play to care for professional play.
I'd also like to suggest that it should be the playtesters job to find the most abusive strategies.
Abusive strategies = kill games faster than imbalance.
<!--QuoteBegin-The_IRS+Oct 25 2004, 01:34 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (The_IRS @ Oct 25 2004, 01:34 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-rennex+Oct 24 2004, 11:25 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (rennex @ Oct 24 2004, 11:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Jane+Oct 24 2004, 07:35 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Jane @ Oct 24 2004, 07:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-BobTheJanitor+Oct 22 2004, 03:59 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BobTheJanitor @ Oct 22 2004, 03:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-Blue Mary+Oct 22 2004, 01:55 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Blue Mary @ Oct 22 2004, 01:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I don't think race/gender/ethnicity matter much to people who want a balanced game that is fun for all. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> And you don't think you might be able to bring another point of view to the table that may not be represented elsewhere? The more points of view that are available, the more well rounded the final product.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The reason why not many girls play this game has VERY little to do with the actual game, it's all about how they get<i> treated</i> when the play the game. (and I'll leave it at that, other than my below example)
Example: My roommate (female) and I started playing NS roughly around the same time. I quickly found that finding a reliable regular server to play on should be made a top priority so that my treatment would be consistent day to day (just from using a female name (Jane) I had to put up with all kinds of ridiculous comments, this problem was further exasperated by introducing a mic into the equasion – but I’m not going to get into that.) By reliable server I mean admins who don’t put up with poor treatment of females, you’d be so very surprised how hard it was to find my first regular server (don’t turn this into a come to my server I’m not like that). My friend, who had a gender-neutral name “Turkey” then “Hokie Bird” (our school mascot) had to put up with comments because she had a female like nature, and some feminine comments. Since she played on random servers and had to put up with more crap (admins not dealing with these problems etc.), she gave up on the game after about 3-4 months (moved on to D&D and now S&I – which I will comment both have a very female friendly community). This is the best example I can think of to explain female involvement in NS, it’s not a universal mindset, just an example; I hope it helps. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Did you consider attempting to be gender neutral as possible? I mean, you don't see people as "QUEER AND PROUD - Nsplayer" or "Jewish Fade" or "African Marine" and actually mean it. You should know by now that gamers will be insulted for any little personal detail revealed about themselves. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Like you being a mexican? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The thing is I don't rage on forums or irc about being called a mexican because it'd be incredibly silly for me to get agitated over what a random pale kid said on the internet. Same should go for anyone else who is taking this e-community too seriously.
<!--QuoteBegin-Wither+Oct 25 2004, 09:39 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Wither @ Oct 25 2004, 09:39 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> No u.
Honestly, if you take offense on the internet over stupid stuff like this, you need to take a step back. You too, Jane. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't think I've read anything more true today.
If people really really bother you, than mute them, problem solved.
(awaits the immature comment from a certain individual that typically follows when FW solves problems for people)
TheAdjHe demanded a cool forum title of some type.Join Date: 2004-05-03Member: 28436Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
If you keep in mind the average demographic that plays FPS games, being insulted for any flaw (or anything at all really) should be expected. I wonder how many times I've been insulted for my accent (not jokingly like most clan players will, but seriously insulted by some pubber), and I'm sure other people have similar stories. Most people playing are male and 13-18, and we all know how guys that age are. Just ignore the ones thinking with Brain #2 and have fun playing your game, and that same logic should apply to everyone else. Mute&Ignore are your best friends.
Comments
nowhere did I specify exactly what it was about the fade that made it much deadlier in the hands of a vet.
also, nowhere did I say that I sucked (I like how you assumed that)
finally, to the person who said "It's no excuse to continue sucking," you are forgetting that new players join the mod. Those new players will most likely not be good at the game at first. When you have a constant influx of unskilled new players, it just might be a good idea to make a game that accomodates THEM so that they don't leave after being slaughtered by a vet who stopped by the server.
the point I am trying to make is that when you have a game that's playtested by an exclusive group of people, you'll end up with the game being tailored to that exclusive group of people. You can find examples of this anywhere you like, be it vet dominance of the fade class, or the unintuitive and difficult design of the commander interface, or the jetpack, or any issue that you might want to find. I know you will pick me apart on those 3 examples that I just listed, but I don't care -- the point is the same; with playtesters being skilled players, NS becomes a game "by the vets, for the vets."
Can't believe I forgot that...
nowhere did I specify exactly what it was about the fade that made it much deadlier in the hands of a vet.
also, nowhere did I say that I sucked (I like how you assumed that)
finally, to the person who said "It's no excuse to continue sucking," you are forgetting that new players join the mod. Those new players will most likely not be good at the game at first. When you have a constant influx of unskilled new players, it just might be a good idea to make a game that accomodates THEM so that they don't leave after being slaughtered by a vet who stopped by the server.
the point I am trying to make is that when you have a game that's playtested by an exclusive group of people, you'll end up with the game being tailored to that exclusive group of people. You can find examples of this anywhere you like, be it vet dominance of the fade class, or the unintuitive and difficult design of the commander interface, or the jetpack, or any issue that you might want to find. I know you will pick me apart on those 3 examples that I just listed, but I don't care -- the point is the same; with playtesters being skilled players, NS becomes a game "by the vets, for the vets." <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would like to point out at all other popular games do not need to be newbie friendly and are still very popular with multi-hundred thousand dollar prizes...
CS for example, is not newbie friendly at all, and yet it's the most popular online FPS in the world. Go figure? You die and have to wait 5 min before you can try again on your average pub. Campers always have the advantage. It's slower paced. Professional CS players never miss a headshot and the difference between them and their average pub is so large that singlehandedly they could take on 6 or 7 other players and win. That's how large the skill difference is. And yet, I hardly think that CS is a game "by the vets, for the vets". The reality is skilled players make the game better for everyone.
Wrong - vets generally play the game a lot more than your average joe, therefore they <i>should</i> know the game inside out, and know where things need changing; due to bias on a team// balance tweaks// places where maps need to be rethought.
The vets simply dont want the game to breakdown, due to bad, unaided input, which some of the playtesters might give, due to them not being skilled at the game - and only doing something like mapping therefore being allowed to playtest.
Not disagreeing with your point, but seeing as you're an active figure in the euro clan scene, I suggest you check the PT list and rethink that statement. There's a lot of skilled euro players, and there were a lot of skilled US players that have become less active.
The majority of you is still missing the point that the PT's job isn't to balance the game, though we can try, it really isn't what we're here to do, even though some of us wish otherwise.
And honestly, if a bad player on the PT forum started suggestion stupid things, do you really think he'd be a PT for much longer, or even listened to? Some PT's might be there due to being contributors (Mappers, modellers, sound artists, etc), but the majority of those players were PT's before they did any of that.
-----------------------------
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
1) Reliablility and discretion.
2) Comprehensible English and the ability to communicate to another without becoming irrational, abusive or sarcastic.
3) Representation of our player base.
4) Skill.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This order is correct, and here are my arguments for their order.
<b>1) Reliablility and discretion.</b>
Reliablility(1): If you have a playtester that is un-relaible, for example one that will not come to scheduled playtests (even if they are available) why would you want them as a playtester?
Reliablility(2): There is a certain maturity required to playtest this game, if that said person proves themself to be mature enough to become a playtester, but is still yet not mature enough to stand still to follow directions, again, why would you want them as a tester?(i was in a PT with the vets when one person was removed from the PT group for moving around when flayra had instructed us to stand still in the ready room several times)
Discretion: There are many bugs in the test builds that are currently present in the public build, only difference is that in the beta/test version, there is open discussion on how to reproduce and cause said exploit/bug. if the playtester were to leak that information they could ruin a large amount of publice games and ruin the 'ns experiance' for a new player. something that as a public image, is un-acceptable for a tester to do.
<b>2) Comprehensible English and the ability to communicate to another without becoming irrational, abusive or sarcastic.</b>
Comprehensible English: If you have the most reliable, descreet, skillful player, but is unable to tell you the problems that they see in a form that you can understand, then what is the point of allowing that person to test the game, the point of the playtesters is to find, reproduce and report said bugs, without a level of communication, this process is not possible.
ability to communicate to another without becoming irrational, abusive or sarcastic: This one comes up alot when people take arguments personal. To provide optimal feedback, you must remain subjective.
without becoming abusive: use of fould language is prohibited here on the forums, if you feel passionate about your point of view on a discussion, which sometimes comes up and is discussed on IRC, the in places where the use of abusive language is not prohibited or automatically filtered, you discredit your point of view by the use of un-professional and mature language.
<b>3) Representation of our player base.</b>
i'll keep this one short, if we test with JUST the 'vets' we would not have a balanced game for the pubs, and as nem0 has stated, clanning balance is not the #1 priority of the testing group. a mix of skill base is optimum for testing, since it is in fact a scaled down version of the larger public player base
<b>4) Skill.</b>
this my friend, is on the list because it has to be. not because it is important, but because it is a component of playing the game.
Scenario:
You use up your full LMG clip, your Full Pistol Clip, and still do not manage to kill the skulk walking straight at you... congrats, your a first time NSplayer
you use up half your pistol clip, and you've killed a skulk, congrats... your a regular player
You use up your full LMG clip, your Full pistol clip, and you've already killed half the alien team, congrats... your a vet
in each scenario the only difference is the skill. i would like to see where in any of those scenarios the testing actually goes on. we are testing bugs, not how good of a player you are in comparison to the other PTs.
i am a marginal player, i know what to do, i know how to do it and i know the game, i am by far not 'vet' or am i 'NSplayer' but my wandering around and testing bugs and atempting to reproduce them generates the information enough to help in the development of the game. Competitions is where you will see skill being the #1 impotant part of the game, never will you see that in a casual game.
-----------------------------
i remind you, that i am not an official representative of the playtesting management team, or the development team. these words come from my mouth as a regular forum user/player. my english skills are a little weak at the moment because i might have just messed up the rest of my life, but ya know, it's to be expected under the cercumstances. (gotta make sure you guys know this isn't anything official or what not...)
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wow that happened so many times with Grendel in the 1.1 testing. Twenty-something people jumping around the ready room until he tells everyone to shutup and not move or they'd be removed from the vet program. Then the next minute was spent with Grendel trying to figure out who was the guy who clicked his flashlight on and off really fast. Ahh good times.
Not disagreeing with your point, but seeing as you're an active figure in the euro clan scene, I suggest you check the PT list and rethink that statement. There's a lot of skilled euro players, and there were a lot of skilled US players that have become less active.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> There are?... hmm
The only one i can think of is eBnar (ebnar). Hes the only skilled playtester i can think of in the EU, all the others <b>personally</b> i wouldnt class them as high skilled.
Not disagreeing with your point, but seeing as you're an active figure in the euro clan scene, I suggest you check the PT list and rethink that statement. There's a lot of skilled euro players, and there were a lot of skilled US players that have become less active.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> There are?... hmm
The only one i can think of is eBnar (ebnar). Hes the only skilled playtester i can think of in the EU, all the others <b>personally</b> i wouldnt class them as high skilled. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I wouldn't discount Shockwave, he's a lot better than he used to be. A LOT. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
The only one i can think of is eBnar (ebnar). Hes the only skilled playtester i can think of in the EU, all the others <b>personally</b> i wouldnt class them as high skilled. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
wltrs? Reavz?
And then there's hellbilly and MrBen who are pretty damned good with a good ping.
Anyone trying to claim otherwise really hasn't figured out what playtesters are meant to do.
Some will never learn <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
The only one i can think of is eBnar (ebnar). Hes the only skilled playtester i can think of in the EU, all the others <b>personally</b> i wouldnt class them as high skilled. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
wltrs? Reavz?
And then there's hellbilly and MrBen who are pretty damned good with a good ping. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hellbilly is deadly no matter what day of the week it is.
Mr. Ben has his days: Sometimes anyone can pwn him, sometimes he's like lucid from 1.04 days.
And you don't think you might be able to bring another point of view to the table that may not be represented elsewhere? The more points of view that are available, the more well rounded the final product.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The reason why not many girls play this game has VERY little to do with the actual game, it's all about how they get<i> treated</i> when the play the game. (and I'll leave it at that, other than my below example)
Example: My roommate (female) and I started playing NS roughly around the same time. I quickly found that finding a reliable regular server to play on should be made a top priority so that my treatment would be consistent day to day (just from using a female name (Jane) I had to put up with all kinds of ridiculous comments, this problem was further exasperated by introducing a mic into the equasion – but I’m not going to get into that.) By reliable server I mean admins who don’t put up with poor treatment of females, you’d be so very surprised how hard it was to find my first regular server (don’t turn this into a come to my server I’m not like that). My friend, who had a gender-neutral name “Turkey” then “Hokie Bird” (our school mascot) had to put up with comments because she had a female like nature, and some feminine comments. Since she played on random servers and had to put up with more crap (admins not dealing with these problems etc.), she gave up on the game after about 3-4 months (moved on to D&D and now S&I – which I will comment both have a very female friendly community). This is the best example I can think of to explain female involvement in NS, it’s not a universal mindset, just an example; I hope it helps.
And you don't think you might be able to bring another point of view to the table that may not be represented elsewhere? The more points of view that are available, the more well rounded the final product.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The reason why not many girls play this game has VERY little to do with the actual game, it's all about how they get<i> treated</i> when the play the game. (and I'll leave it at that, other than my below example)
Example: My roommate (female) and I started playing NS roughly around the same time. I quickly found that finding a reliable regular server to play on should be made a top priority so that my treatment would be consistent day to day (just from using a female name (Jane) I had to put up with all kinds of ridiculous comments, this problem was further exasperated by introducing a mic into the equasion – but I’m not going to get into that.) By reliable server I mean admins who don’t put up with poor treatment of females, you’d be so very surprised how hard it was to find my first regular server (don’t turn this into a come to my server I’m not like that). My friend, who had a gender-neutral name “Turkey” then “Hokie Bird” (our school mascot) had to put up with comments because she had a female like nature, and some feminine comments. Since she played on random servers and had to put up with more crap (admins not dealing with these problems etc.), she gave up on the game after about 3-4 months (moved on to D&D and now S&I – which I will comment both have a very female friendly community). This is the best example I can think of to explain female involvement in NS, it’s not a universal mindset, just an example; I hope it helps. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
That really is a major problem I've found.
...but Jane, why'd you leave Lunix? We treated you well there, didn't we? We treat Athena well... D:
However some people, ie Mr Ben for example, do not get close to representing the skilled part of the NS community in the EU, i would dread people to even think it.
:x Im sorry but might as well be honest.
And you don't think you might be able to bring another point of view to the table that may not be represented elsewhere? The more points of view that are available, the more well rounded the final product.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The reason why not many girls play this game has VERY little to do with the actual game, it's all about how they get<i> treated</i> when the play the game. (and I'll leave it at that, other than my below example)
Example: My roommate (female) and I started playing NS roughly around the same time. I quickly found that finding a reliable regular server to play on should be made a top priority so that my treatment would be consistent day to day (just from using a female name (Jane) I had to put up with all kinds of ridiculous comments, this problem was further exasperated by introducing a mic into the equasion – but I’m not going to get into that.) By reliable server I mean admins who don’t put up with poor treatment of females, you’d be so very surprised how hard it was to find my first regular server (don’t turn this into a come to my server I’m not like that). My friend, who had a gender-neutral name “Turkey” then “Hokie Bird” (our school mascot) had to put up with comments because she had a female like nature, and some feminine comments. Since she played on random servers and had to put up with more crap (admins not dealing with these problems etc.), she gave up on the game after about 3-4 months (moved on to D&D and now S&I – which I will comment both have a very female friendly community). This is the best example I can think of to explain female involvement in NS, it’s not a universal mindset, just an example; I hope it helps. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Did you consider attempting to be gender neutral as possible? I mean, you don't see people as "QUEER AND PROUD - Nsplayer" or "Jewish Fade" or "African Marine" and actually mean it. You should know by now that gamers will be insulted for any little personal detail revealed about themselves.
And you don't think you might be able to bring another point of view to the table that may not be represented elsewhere? The more points of view that are available, the more well rounded the final product.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The reason why not many girls play this game has VERY little to do with the actual game, it's all about how they get<i> treated</i> when the play the game. (and I'll leave it at that, other than my below example)
Example: My roommate (female) and I started playing NS roughly around the same time. I quickly found that finding a reliable regular server to play on should be made a top priority so that my treatment would be consistent day to day (just from using a female name (Jane) I had to put up with all kinds of ridiculous comments, this problem was further exasperated by introducing a mic into the equasion – but I’m not going to get into that.) By reliable server I mean admins who don’t put up with poor treatment of females, you’d be so very surprised how hard it was to find my first regular server (don’t turn this into a come to my server I’m not like that). My friend, who had a gender-neutral name “Turkey” then “Hokie Bird” (our school mascot) had to put up with comments because she had a female like nature, and some feminine comments. Since she played on random servers and had to put up with more crap (admins not dealing with these problems etc.), she gave up on the game after about 3-4 months (moved on to D&D and now S&I – which I will comment both have a very female friendly community). This is the best example I can think of to explain female involvement in NS, it’s not a universal mindset, just an example; I hope it helps. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Did you consider attempting to be gender neutral as possible? I mean, you don't see people as "QUEER AND PROUD - Nsplayer" or "Jewish Fade" or "African Marine" and actually mean it. You should know by now that gamers will be insulted for any little personal detail revealed about themselves. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Like you being a mexican?
And you don't think you might be able to bring another point of view to the table that may not be represented elsewhere? The more points of view that are available, the more well rounded the final product.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The reason why not many girls play this game has VERY little to do with the actual game, it's all about how they get<i> treated</i> when the play the game. (and I'll leave it at that, other than my below example)
Example: My roommate (female) and I started playing NS roughly around the same time. I quickly found that finding a reliable regular server to play on should be made a top priority so that my treatment would be consistent day to day (just from using a female name (Jane) I had to put up with all kinds of ridiculous comments, this problem was further exasperated by introducing a mic into the equasion – but I’m not going to get into that.) By reliable server I mean admins who don’t put up with poor treatment of females, you’d be so very surprised how hard it was to find my first regular server (don’t turn this into a come to my server I’m not like that). My friend, who had a gender-neutral name “Turkey” then “Hokie Bird” (our school mascot) had to put up with comments because she had a female like nature, and some feminine comments. Since she played on random servers and had to put up with more crap (admins not dealing with these problems etc.), she gave up on the game after about 3-4 months (moved on to D&D and now S&I – which I will comment both have a very female friendly community). This is the best example I can think of to explain female involvement in NS, it’s not a universal mindset, just an example; I hope it helps. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Did you consider attempting to be gender neutral as possible? I mean, you don't see people as "QUEER AND PROUD - Nsplayer" or "Jewish Fade" or "African Marine" and actually mean it. You should know by now that gamers will be insulted for any little personal detail revealed about themselves. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Like you being a mexican? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Make this man a PT <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
And you don't think you might be able to bring another point of view to the table that may not be represented elsewhere? The more points of view that are available, the more well rounded the final product.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The reason why not many girls play this game has VERY little to do with the actual game, it's all about how they get<i> treated</i> when the play the game. (and I'll leave it at that, other than my below example)
Example: My roommate (female) and I started playing NS roughly around the same time. I quickly found that finding a reliable regular server to play on should be made a top priority so that my treatment would be consistent day to day (just from using a female name (Jane) I had to put up with all kinds of ridiculous comments, this problem was further exasperated by introducing a mic into the equasion – but I’m not going to get into that.) By reliable server I mean admins who don’t put up with poor treatment of females, you’d be so very surprised how hard it was to find my first regular server (don’t turn this into a come to my server I’m not like that). My friend, who had a gender-neutral name “Turkey” then “Hokie Bird” (our school mascot) had to put up with comments because she had a female like nature, and some feminine comments. Since she played on random servers and had to put up with more crap (admins not dealing with these problems etc.), she gave up on the game after about 3-4 months (moved on to D&D and now S&I – which I will comment both have a very female friendly community). This is the best example I can think of to explain female involvement in NS, it’s not a universal mindset, just an example; I hope it helps. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Did you consider attempting to be gender neutral as possible? I mean, you don't see people as "QUEER AND PROUD - Nsplayer" or "Jewish Fade" or "African Marine" and actually mean it. You should know by now that gamers will be insulted for any little personal detail revealed about themselves. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually no, I wanted to play as Jane, and if people couldn't accept me as that I would just stop playing. I think a lot of the crap my friend had to deal with was because she "had a male name" (though it was gender neutral) but acted like a female. I acted female, and sounded female, and there was no reason not to use my name. I also didn't really understand the point behind aliasing, this was the first online game I had ever played, and for all rpgs and such I always use the name Jane, even when the main player is male which is typically the case.
Also Mr.Ben, don't listen to him, that part of his post will be nuked soon enough. You know we all love you.
However some people, ie Mr Ben for example, do not get close to representing the skilled part of the NS community in the EU, i would dread people to even think it.
:x Im sorry but might as well be honest. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Funny how you critisize other people, yet are no skilled player yourself.
And by the way, why discuss some persons skill, if skill doesn't really matter?
However some people, ie Mr Ben for example, do not get close to representing the skilled part of the NS community in the EU, i would dread people to even think it.
:x Im sorry but might as well be honest. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Funny how you critisize other people, yet are no skilled player yourself.
And by the way, why discuss some persons skill, if skill doesn't really matter? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
The thing is, if skill doesn't matter because PT's do not balance the game, who does? How can you balance something when there's no clear indication of the next step to take?
That wasn't my personal opinion, but grendels pt requirements. I'm not going to argue about if skill is needed to balance a game or not, as all points have been already made in this thread over and over again <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> I just wanted to comment on jas0s post.
Also Mr.Ben, don't listen to him, that part of his post will be nuked soon enough. You know we all love you. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Jane, the way you've been treated is not cool at all, and it shows a lot about the number of idiots in online multiplayer gaming. However, if you are just going to stop playing if people say nasty things to you, then you might as well quit now.
This is pretty much akin to living in England and refusing to go to work if it rains. Its going to rain, a lot. Unless you find a really great community or get a hold of admin status somewhere, meeting and suffering abuse from tards are your destiny if you insist on keeping that name.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->No one questions Blizzard when South Koreans answer their questions.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> (Not the exact quote but close to it.)
Too bad the South Koreans don't balance the games. (Anymore.)
It's mostly their message boards filled with flamers/trolls who are making the balance changes.
"OGM BLADEMASTER SUX!!111" Got like 50 of these topics a day till they totally buffed the blademaster.
Next people complained that the BloodMage was worthless. Around 30 of these topics a day. Needless to say, the BloodMage got buffed.
I'm not saying they needed buffs. I'm just saying that with 30+ topics asking for somthing on those boards that they will 100% make a change to what the topics are asking.
The South Koreans disagreed completely with these changes, as well as pro / skilled players.
Blizzard cares too much about casual play to care for professional play.
I'd also like to suggest that it should be the playtesters job to find the most abusive strategies.
Abusive strategies = kill games faster than imbalance.
And you don't think you might be able to bring another point of view to the table that may not be represented elsewhere? The more points of view that are available, the more well rounded the final product.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The reason why not many girls play this game has VERY little to do with the actual game, it's all about how they get<i> treated</i> when the play the game. (and I'll leave it at that, other than my below example)
Example: My roommate (female) and I started playing NS roughly around the same time. I quickly found that finding a reliable regular server to play on should be made a top priority so that my treatment would be consistent day to day (just from using a female name (Jane) I had to put up with all kinds of ridiculous comments, this problem was further exasperated by introducing a mic into the equasion – but I’m not going to get into that.) By reliable server I mean admins who don’t put up with poor treatment of females, you’d be so very surprised how hard it was to find my first regular server (don’t turn this into a come to my server I’m not like that). My friend, who had a gender-neutral name “Turkey” then “Hokie Bird” (our school mascot) had to put up with comments because she had a female like nature, and some feminine comments. Since she played on random servers and had to put up with more crap (admins not dealing with these problems etc.), she gave up on the game after about 3-4 months (moved on to D&D and now S&I – which I will comment both have a very female friendly community). This is the best example I can think of to explain female involvement in NS, it’s not a universal mindset, just an example; I hope it helps. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Did you consider attempting to be gender neutral as possible? I mean, you don't see people as "QUEER AND PROUD - Nsplayer" or "Jewish Fade" or "African Marine" and actually mean it. You should know by now that gamers will be insulted for any little personal detail revealed about themselves. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Like you being a mexican? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
The thing is I don't rage on forums or irc about being called a mexican because it'd be incredibly silly for me to get agitated over what a random pale kid said on the internet. Same should go for anyone else who is taking this e-community too seriously.
Honestly, if you take offense on the internet over stupid stuff like this, you need to take
a step back. You too, Jane.
Honestly, if you take offense on the internet over stupid stuff like this, you need to take
a step back. You too, Jane. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think I've read anything more true today.
If people really really bother you, than mute them, problem solved.
(awaits the immature comment from a certain individual that typically follows when FW solves problems for people)