Well actually there is a marine script to run faster.... Other than that tho there really is no script that improves play dramatically. For aliens they got the hop script but you can just use mousewheel or timing. The run script isn't really a problem because it's really easy to spot btw.
Yeah that's the script that presses strafe left and right really fast for you, right? It can be done manually as well, though it'll be a bit slower. Still no where close to a hack though, as it can be done manually and almost as well. Plus, when using that script you're not able to change directions, and can you even shoot/jump? I'm not sure I never used it before, but it sounds like those crappy pistol scripts where it spams +attack; wait; +attack 10x and its more of a hassle than anything because you have no control whatsoever.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
edited January 2005
I don't understand why people still talk about scripts.
The only script in NS that I would say was unfair was the pistol script, but that script has been dead a long time, since 2.0 over a year ago really, becuase Flay changed the pistol from having an unlimited firing speed. When the discussion first started this was the problem script and what a lot of the non-scripting members came to associate with scripts.
So there was a lot of ignorance.
And there still is some (more on servers than the forums to be sure) but now I don't see as much ignorance as much as people <i>accused</i> of ignorance because they don't like/use scripts. People like guardian1 who has chosen his words quite carefully and attempted to make sure that he was clear that he didn't think scripting was cheating have been targeted. He thought it took skill out of the game; not because the players using it were unskilled, not because it gave them some sort of quick boost to their skills, but because it became a crutch. And I have seen several people jump all over him. I've seen some agree, but the same people who accuse others of "picking out only what they want to see" have similarly selective reading habits.
I don't use sripts because I think you can play better with out them, why learn a leap or swipe script when I'd be much more adaptable after learning lastinv and/or fastswitch 1. I don't care if you script I'm not goin got make a big deal out of it because I'd rather not see people get all defensive as if they have to defend the way they play the game.
As for the overall skill level which is what the post was orignially about it depends greatly on the server. All the same if I join a random server there are almost always a few good players. I just stick to the ones where I know a lot of reg/admins and that keeps me from getting accused of cheating somewhat. I think the consti icon helps too.
edit: So donate to Flayra to stop the accusations. -Tilda
I'm so glad I was able to supply you with a bit of emotional gratification. I'm sorry I have a problem understanding basic concepts such as the differences in meaning between legal and illegal. Luckily, my friend dictionary.com is here to help, thank you dictionary.com <a href='http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=sarcasm' target='_blank'>Def: Legal</a> <a href='http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=facetious' target='_blank'>Def: Illegal</a>
<!--QuoteBegin-TranquilChaos+Jan 13 2005, 05:43 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TranquilChaos @ Jan 13 2005, 05:43 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'm so glad I was able to supply you with a bit of emotional gratification. I'm sorry I have a problem understanding basic concepts such as the differences in meaning between legal and illegal. Luckily, my friend dictionary.com is here to help, thank you dictionary.com <a href='http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=sarcasm' target='_blank'>Def: Legal</a> <a href='http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=facetious' target='_blank'>Def: Illegal</a> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> well I'm glad you're not actually that stupid. good for you(no sarcasm totally sincere)
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Hacks and exploits on the other hand completely break the game, they are not comparable.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd call that selective reading. It was explicitly said that we was not comparing hacks and scripts, he was pointing out a flaw in "the hole's" logic.
<!--QuoteBegin-SquishyOne+Jan 13 2005, 07:27 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SquishyOne @ Jan 13 2005, 07:27 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Well actually there is a marine script to run faster.... Other than that tho there really is no script that improves play dramatically. For aliens they got the hop script but you can just use mousewheel or timing. The run script isn't really a problem because it's really easy to spot btw. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> And it also happens to be very likely to crash steam/HL when used more than once or twice. It's just easier to do it manually - I do.
<!--QuoteBegin-TranquilChaos+Jan 13 2005, 06:16 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TranquilChaos @ Jan 13 2005, 06:16 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Stop picking on Guardian just because he's right. Saying it's ok to use any legal advantage to win is exactly the same as saying that it's ok to use illegal advantages to win. The two arguements are one and the same, so stop your pointless bickering.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The problem is he's not right. By your reasoning, I could pose this question:
Professional sports forbid the use of steroids, but allow players to work out physically. Why not ban working out? Both using steroids and pumping iron increase strength - so why should either be allowed?
The answer: <i>because one provides an edge beyond normal human limits!</i> Steroids can make people faster and stronger physically than they ever could be without them. Weightlifting only enhances a person's natural strength.
The same is true for scripts and hacks. Hacks make it possible to empty 10 rounds out of your pistol in an instant - scripts can't. Hacks make it possible for a marine to move at 1000 units a second - scripts can't. In videogames, people miss. Hacks make it possible to never miss a shot. Scripts can't.
<!--QuoteBegin-locallyunscene+Jan 13 2005, 05:55 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (locallyunscene @ Jan 13 2005, 05:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Hacks and exploits on the other hand completely break the game, they are not comparable.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd call that selective reading. It was explicitly said that we was not comparing hacks and scripts, he was pointing out a flaw in "the hole's" logic. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Well I was responding to only his post, and the way he said it really implied that that was what he meant. anyways that's all irrelevent now since he just admitted to being sarcastic(which makes the post make a lot more sense <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> ) a few posts back.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
hmm looks like it didn't post. Anyway if he is sarcastic that just more of what I'm talking about. He isn't comparing hack to scripts yet that's what's been focused on. Oh well just stop with the script paranoia, both sides of the fence.
<!--QuoteBegin-ssjyoda+Jan 7 2005, 11:05 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (ssjyoda @ Jan 7 2005, 11:05 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> majority of clan community, the ones at the top have turned away cause of all the bs thats goin on.. block scripts nd such, the lesser players complaining about the better players. i know a lot of em that left for WOW. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I have to whole-heartedly agree with this.
3/4ths of my clan, including myself, have left for WoW, and most of us were veterens from even the older days(myself since the exact beginning of 2.0).
To tell the truth, I think most of the better players are waiting till the next beta before we jump in. At least, I am.
<!--QuoteBegin-Isamil+Jan 13 2005, 05:17 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Isamil @ Jan 13 2005, 05:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Sorry, but not all of the pubbers see scripting as evil cheating. I've never been in a clan, but I know that scripts are not a substiute for skill.(With the posible expection of a 3jump script, because when you factor in lag and FPS, skill might not matter) I don't use any scripts. Do I think their evil and I must not touch them? No, I see no need for them. Scripts HELP pubbers. It levels the playing field a bit. Guy can't do X, he starts using a script to help him. Through the script he learns more about the thing he can't do, and eventully he'll be able to do it without the script(with some practice) Guy who can do X without the script will do X better then the guy using the X script. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't feel that scripts are evil either. My stance is that they are a crutch.
I find it interesting that many people are saying that scripting isn't a substitute for skill and then they add in an exception like, "except with a 3jump script" or something like that.
I'll play the devil's advocate for a moment and admit that scripting alone does not make a good player. I will say that it makes a good player a better player though. Anything that reduces the difficulty of doing a complex or timing sensitive sequence of events gives an advantage over the average person not using them. I don't think that's open to debate. That's why people write batch files, or create applications that automate events or commands. It's hard to argue with.
<!--QuoteBegin-themakefunofpplacct+Jan 13 2005, 05:34 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (themakefunofpplacct @ Jan 13 2005, 05:34 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Except one is legal and one is illegal... how is it exactly the same? And your matter-of-fact tone is funny, because basically you're telling us all to shut up because you are 100% right so it's pointless to argue about this anymore. There is obviously a line that cannot be crossed, and no scripts actually cross that line. No script even comes close to crossing that game-breaking line, because a script is just a bunch of console commands strung together. Hacks and exploits on the other hand completely break the game, they are not comparable. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Lets define our terms.
It's not illegal (against the law) to use hacks. You cannot get arrested. It IS however immoral and unsportsmanlike.
When you say there is an obvious line that cannot be crossed, please explain to me how people can cross that line every day. Obviously, SOME PEOPLE cannot discern that line and feel that it's ok to hack/cheat/exploit.
Again, my argument says that it's a matter of how people look at it. If someone does not have the ability (technical or otherwise) to use scripting, wouldn't that look like cheating to them? I'd have to say yes. Whether it's cheating or not is irrelevant, because it's subjective to the individual.
You have values that say that scripting is ok. Others have values that say it's cheap and "illegal". You can't argue with someone elses opinion. You can only state your own opinion and see what happens.
I think people who use mice that weigh less than .5 grams are cheating because mine weighs .6 We should ban all mice users who's weigh less than mine.
I have an idea. Someone go download an OGC cheat go on a lan and put on a speedhack. Besides going probably 50,000 ground speed you'll shoot a 30 round clip in .005 seconds. Lets put that against a 3jumpscript and a pistol script. Im sure we'll get a gigantic difference of both examples.
Cheats = Something that is literally impossible to do Scripts = Something that can be done
Its basically as simple as that.
Its like those gatorade commercials. Drink this and gain extra vitamins to give you an extra boost! Should we ban gatorade because its 'cheap and unfair'?
I put scripts and hacks in the same category. If it isn't bindable with the set commands given with the game, you shouldn't use it. One button, one action. Press jump when you want to jump. Sure, bind jump to a scroll wheel - it isn't cheating if you can do it in the setup. It becomes cheating if you have to bind it in console or some other file. At that point you have crossed a line between playing within the games limits available to all and playing in the limits "if you know how".
<!--QuoteBegin-DuoGodOfDeath+Jan 14 2005, 11:02 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DuoGodOfDeath @ Jan 14 2005, 11:02 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I think people who use mice that weigh less than .5 grams are cheating because mine weighs .6 We should ban all mice users who's weigh less than mine.
I have an idea. Someone go download an OGC cheat go on a lan and put on a speedhack. Besides going probably 50,000 ground speed you'll shoot a 30 round clip in .005 seconds. Lets put that against a 3jumpscript and a pistol script. Im sure we'll get a gigantic difference of both examples.
Cheats = Something that is literally impossible to do Scripts = Something that can be done
Its basically as simple as that.
Its like those gatorade commercials. Drink this and gain extra vitamins to give you an extra boost! Should we ban gatorade because its 'cheap and unfair'? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Again, you have to give in to the principles of perspective. Some people view hacking as perfectly fine. You apply your morals to your argument and I can apply my morals to mine.
I have no problems with you scripting, but when people say that the no-scripting servers are **** and that pubs are ruining the community because of that, I have to fight back with my opinion. There's a lot more pubs than there are clans, and removing options from the game will only hurt both communities in the end.
It's like the argument that newbies are ruining the community. That's just a bunch of ellitist **** from people who don't want to share. By bringing other people up to your level, you make the community better as a whole.
And your comparison of Gatorade giving an unfair advantage? Well, caffeine has been outlawed in almost all physical competition, yet it's a common ingredient in many drinks. How far away is Gatorade from that? Some may say that it's not the same thing, but it's the same principle. Again, it's a matter of perspective.
The mouse issue is just going to another extreme of the argument. How far are people willing to take it? I could take it even futher forcing throttling of all games to the minimum specs to run it. Fair? If you want to take it to the extreme, yes, but the game and community would suffer because of it.
obuhNot Quite Smart at NSJoin Date: 2003-03-31Member: 15072Members, Constellation
edited January 2005
Scripts are perfectly within the limit of the game. It was intended to be in the game by those who coded it. You can't adjust your network rates in the menu, I guess you consider it cheating too then ?
Edit: Of course you segregate the community by alienating players who play in a certain way, just because the sheep decided it's highly unfair and like cheating, without really knowing what they are talking about.
<!--QuoteBegin-Pepe Muffassa+Jan 14 2005, 11:27 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Pepe Muffassa @ Jan 14 2005, 11:27 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I put scripts and hacks in the same category. If it isn't bindable with the set commands given with the game, you shouldn't use it. One button, one action. Press jump when you want to jump. Sure, bind jump to a scroll wheel - it isn't cheating if you can do it in the setup. It becomes cheating if you have to bind it in console or some other file. At that point you have crossed a line between playing within the games limits available to all and playing in the limits "if you know how". <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I'd like to agree, but I don't think scripts and hacks are in the same category.
I'd put hacks in the category of immoral and scripts in the category of unsportsmanlike.
But my opinion is very similar in that it's cool if you want to bind something to a key in the setup options, but the second that you use a script, you're using that as a crutch to make up for a lack of skill in some area.
Scripts have been in the game for 6 years, and haven't been removed yet until NS, isn't it funny how all of your whining seems to have paid off? Hardly. All it did was force us to come to your pubs and obliterate you, and laugh even harder when you go 'OMG HE'S SCRIPTING' and you look in the console to see that blockscripts is on, then realize to yourself that it's impossible. We laugh at you the entire time you're whining. Oh the irony.
Hacks are third party executables that completely alter the game from the way it has been designed to be played.
Scripts are in the game, and available for everyone to use legally, some just choose not to because that horrible angel on their right shoulder cries when they do. *tear*
You call us elitest bastards, but the fact of the matter is, you can't get over your own hate for yourself when you think you're hurting someone else's feelings over the internet when you dominate them with a 3jump script cause it's easier to bunnyhop at them like that.
Morals over a video game.. you all should just be emo.
FOR THE LAST GODDAMN TIME A PISTOL SCRIPT CANNOT, WILL NOT, AND WILL NEVER BE ABLE TO LET YOU SHOOT FASTER THAN ANY ONE ELSE, WITH OR WITHOUT A SCRIPT. THE PISTOL IS CAPPED, AND YOU CANNOT UNLOAD AN ENTIRE CLIP IN A GODDAMN MILLISECOND. LEARN YOUR freaking ARGUMENTS BEFORE WASTING YOUR TIME ARGUING THEM.
THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO WAY TO TELL IF SOMEONE IS SCRIPTING A PISTOL OR NOT, NOT A SINGLE DAMN WAY.
Pepe Muffassa, you're entitled to your opinions. It's good to have morals and believe in them, but they can't be confused with the facts. A hack introduces things that aren't supposed to be a part of the game while aliases and scripts utilize commands that already exist.
What you fail to realize is that graphical config menu writes to config files too. So with your logic the game engine itself is hacking/cheating making you a hacker.. does that really make sense?
People will adjust their game options any way they like to, menu or by hand, and their is nothing wrong with either. Try a pistol script once to see what it's really like.. it'll make you think differently I am sure of that much.
Funny about pistol scripts. I tried one once and I thought it shot too slow. Funny eh? Its cool when people think I pistol script even though I hate them. I shoot faster without than with one its weird :/
<!--QuoteBegin-Guardian1+Jan 14 2005, 01:37 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Guardian1 @ Jan 14 2005, 01:37 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It's like the argument that newbies are ruining the community. That's just a bunch of ellitist **** from people who don't want to share. By bringing other people up to your level, you make the community better as a whole. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Just a side comment on this, I don't think it's <u>all</u> elitist ****, I mean, we've all had games ruined because some new people don't know how to play. Of course, neither the game nor the community really try to help new players, so it's not really their fault. Still, there is truth to the statement that pubs are increasingly becoming full of people of....below-average skill level. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I find it interesting that many people are saying that scripting isn't a substitute for skill and then they add in an exception like, "except with a 3jump script" or something like that.
I'll play the devil's advocate for a moment and admit that scripting alone does not make a good player. I will say that it makes a good player a better player though. Anything that reduces the difficulty of doing a complex or timing sensitive sequence of events gives an advantage over the average person not using them. I don't think that's open to debate. That's why people write batch files, or create applications that automate events or commands. It's hard to argue with.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh but I'll do my damnedest.
The +3jump is an interesting case of a script. It <u>is</u> physically possible to bunnyhop without a script or mwheel (I do it) but it requires exceptional ping, luck, AND it is nearly impossible to keep it going for very long. A +3jump makes bunnyhopping accessible (remember, Flayra specifically left it in the game for aliens, it's a part of their gameplay) to people who a) have bad lag, and b) don't want to use the mwheel to bunnyhop. According to a previous definition, anything you can bind in the setup is perfectly fine. You can bind jump to mwheel down, so obviously that's "legal". And scripting gives people the option of doing this "legal" action a different way. That's what scripting is: customization. Sure you can do it <i>this</i> way, but why deny people the option of also doing it <i>that</i> way if they wish?
<!--QuoteBegin-the_hole+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (the_hole)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Hacks are third party executables that completely alter the game from the way it has been designed to be played.
Scripts are in the game, and available for everyone to use legally,<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Most important part of the hole's post.
<!--QuoteBegin-the hole+Jan 14 2005, 11:48 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (the hole @ Jan 14 2005, 11:48 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Scripts have been in the game for 6 years, and haven't been removed yet until NS, isn't it funny how all of your whining seems to have paid off? Hardly. All it did was force us to come to your pubs and obliterate you, and laugh even harder when you go 'OMG HE'S SCRIPTING' and you look in the console to see that blockscripts is on, then realize to yourself that it's impossible. We laugh at you the entire time you're whining. Oh the irony.
Hacks are third party executables that completely alter the game from the way it has been designed to be played.
Scripts are in the game, and available for everyone to use legally, some just choose not to because that horrible angel on their right shoulder cries when they do. *tear*
You call us elitest bastards, but the fact of the matter is, you can't get over your own hate for yourself when you think you're hurting someone else's feelings over the internet when you dominate them with a 3jump script cause it's easier to bunnyhop at them like that.
Morals over a video game.. you all should just be emo.
FOR THE LAST GODDAMN TIME A PISTOL SCRIPT CANNOT, WILL NOT, AND WILL NEVER BE ABLE TO LET YOU SHOOT FASTER THAN ANY ONE ELSE, WITH OR WITHOUT A SCRIPT. THE PISTOL IS CAPPED, AND YOU CANNOT UNLOAD AN ENTIRE CLIP IN A GODDAMN MILLISECOND. LEARN YOUR freaking ARGUMENTS BEFORE WASTING YOUR TIME ARGUING THEM.
THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO WAY TO TELL IF SOMEONE IS SCRIPTING A PISTOL OR NOT, NOT A SINGLE DAMN WAY. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I think you're getting overly emotional about it.
Notice that I never attack you or resort to "YELLING" to get my point across to you.
Maybe the problem with scripting is that it creates an artificial barrier that separates the community. I'd like to ask a question of the community.
If scripting were removed from Half-Life, would you quit playing NS? I don't think these forums have the ability to do a Poll, so I'll just stick to responses.
obuhNot Quite Smart at NSJoin Date: 2003-03-31Member: 15072Members, Constellation
edited January 2005
<!--QuoteBegin-Guardian1+Jan 14 2005, 02:17 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Guardian1 @ Jan 14 2005, 02:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I think you're getting overly emotional about it.
Notice that I never attack you or resort to "YELLING" to get my point across to you.
Maybe the problem with scripting is that it creates an artificial barrier that separates the community. I'd like to ask a question of the community.
If scripting were removed from Half-Life, would you quit playing NS? I don't think these forums have the ability to do a Poll, so I'll just stick to responses. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Maybe he's getting angry because you are one of many many people here making ignorant posts. Yes there is an artificial barrier, it's called mp_blockscripts and was added because flayra listened to a bunch of whiney nubbies who don't know what scripting is.
Scripting will not be removed from HL. It's available in HL2 too you know. But if there wasn't the possibility to script in HL in the first place, there would be no problem.
<!--QuoteBegin-Sky+Jan 14 2005, 12:09 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sky @ Jan 14 2005, 12:09 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Guardian1+Jan 14 2005, 01:37 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Guardian1 @ Jan 14 2005, 01:37 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It's like the argument that newbies are ruining the community. That's just a bunch of ellitist **** from people who don't want to share. By bringing other people up to your level, you make the community better as a whole. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Just a side comment on this, I don't think it's <u>all</u> elitist ****, I mean, we've all had games ruined because some new people don't know how to play. Of course, neither the game nor the community really try to help new players, so it's not really their fault. Still, there is truth to the statement that pubs are increasingly becoming full of people of....below-average skill level. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I find it interesting that many people are saying that scripting isn't a substitute for skill and then they add in an exception like, "except with a 3jump script" or something like that.
I'll play the devil's advocate for a moment and admit that scripting alone does not make a good player. I will say that it makes a good player a better player though. Anything that reduces the difficulty of doing a complex or timing sensitive sequence of events gives an advantage over the average person not using them. I don't think that's open to debate. That's why people write batch files, or create applications that automate events or commands. It's hard to argue with.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh but I'll do my damnedest.
The +3jump is an interesting case of a script. It <u>is</u> physically possible to bunnyhop without a script or mwheel (I do it) but it requires exceptional ping, luck, AND it is nearly impossible to keep it going for very long. A +3jump makes bunnyhopping accessible (remember, Flayra specifically left it in the game for aliens, it's a part of their gameplay) to people who a) have bad lag, and b) don't want to use the mwheel to bunnyhop. According to a previous definition, anything you can bind in the setup is perfectly fine. You can bind jump to mwheel down, so obviously that's "legal". And scripting gives people the option of doing this "legal" action a different way. That's what scripting is: customization. Sure you can do it <i>this</i> way, but why deny people the option of also doing it <i>that</i> way if they wish?
<!--QuoteBegin-the_hole+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (the_hole)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Hacks are third party executables that completely alter the game from the way it has been designed to be played.
Scripts are in the game, and available for everyone to use legally,<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Most important part of the hole's post. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You make some good points.
Are people of below average skill bad for the community? No. A player is a player is a player. If you ask Michael Jordan if players that aren't as good as he is are bad for the league, I don't think that he'd say yes.
The average skill of the players doesn't make the community suffer. It makes some individuals suffer because of a lack of skilled competition. By the argument that the community is full of below average skilled players, invalidates the argument that the community suffers, because the community is now full of below average skill players. Hold on to your socks because it's going to get more complicated. NOW, the community has a new average skillset, which is lower than some of the people making the argument. Now those people are ABOVE the average skill of the community.
I can see why some people are upset. It's no fun if there's no competition. I certainly wouldn't keep playing a game if I'm consistently beating down every player/team that I play against. It's only fun for a short while before it gets boring.
But, that's a small percentage of the "community" that's having the issue. I think the term for this phenomenon is attrition. More players come into the community, skilled players, finding that there is no challenge, leave the community.
It's the circle of life, played out on NS.
I definitely don't want to get into the debate of whether bunnyhopping is unsportsmanlike or not. (It pisses me off, but it's a valid tactic in my opinion) It's how the bunnyhopping is performed that's being debated. Technically, scripting could be defined as third party, because it's something that's added from outside the game. It's semantics really. Lets look at the spirit of scripting. It assists you in doing something by automating a sequence of commands or events. For some people, this would be a daunting task if done manually. For some people, it's a mundane task that scripting takes over. In either case, it's something that gives an advantage over people who don't use it.
I have no problem with people bunnyhopping or "3 jumping" without a script. It shows that you have some decent keyboarding skills. I'm not a good bunnyhopper because it throws my aim off, and I don't use it. When you use a script to do it, you're just showing that you can't or WON'T do it with the keyboard. Either unskilled or lazy. Take your pick.
<!--QuoteBegin-obuh+Jan 14 2005, 12:30 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (obuh @ Jan 14 2005, 12:30 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Guardian1+Jan 14 2005, 02:17 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Guardian1 @ Jan 14 2005, 02:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I think you're getting overly emotional about it.
Notice that I never attack you or resort to "YELLING" to get my point across to you.
Maybe the problem with scripting is that it creates an artificial barrier that separates the community. I'd like to ask a question of the community.
If scripting were removed from Half-Life, would you quit playing NS? I don't think these forums have the ability to do a Poll, so I'll just stick to responses. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Maybe he's getting angry because you are one of many many people here making ignorant posts. Yes there is an artificial barrier, it's called mp_blockscripts and was added because flayra listened to a bunch of whiney nubbies who don't know what scripting is.
Scripting will not be removed from HL. It's available in HL2 too you know. But if there wasn't the possibility to script in HL in the first place, there would be no problem. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Please, educate us. What is scripting?
Being employed in the IT industry, I've learned that scripting is the triggering a string of commands or events by using a command or event to do so.
If I am wrong, please correct me. I'm still waiting for "The Hole's" scripting forum so I can be more educated in it. But for now, I'm stuck with some very hostile people yelling and calling me names.
Please note that by calling someone a nub, noob, n00b, or newb, you're not endearing anyone to the scripting cause. You're alienating the people you're trying to explain your opinion to.
Try to explain your idea/opinion/argument without resorting to namecalling and in a concise manner and you'll be surprised at the results. You may not convert them to your opinion, but you won't start a flamewar either.
My post count is low, but please don't mistake me for being NEW to NS.
That_Annoying_KidSire of TitlesJoin Date: 2003-03-01Member: 14175Members, Constellation
<!--QuoteBegin-Pepe Muffassa+Jan 14 2005, 10:27 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Pepe Muffassa @ Jan 14 2005, 10:27 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I put scripts and hacks in the same category. If it isn't bindable with the set commands given with the game, you shouldn't use it. One button, one action. Press jump when you want to jump. Sure, bind jump to a scroll wheel - it isn't cheating if you can do it in the setup. It becomes cheating if you have to bind it in console or some other file. At that point you have crossed a line between playing within the games limits available to all and playing in the limits "if you know how". <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> ...
scripts and hacks in the same catagory? have you ignored everything dragon mech has said?
I bind and rebind stuff all the damn time in my console ingame, I have to eff with cl_rate cause if I don't set it to 4000 and it stays at 9999 I get 50-90 choke, I guess I'm a cheater cause I use my console.
seriously people, it looks like everyone is jumping in with there own oppinion and not reading other peoples posts, scripting is an intergral part of the HL engine, when you go the CS forums, one of the stickied threads is "here is all the scripts that most people find helpfull"
also, saying the argument of crossing the line from included to "if you know how"
if you spend 5 minutes of your time, you can know how as well, it's not that <a href='http://www.google.com' target='_blank'>hard</a>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I have no problem with people bunnyhopping or "3 jumping" without a script. It shows that you have some decent keyboarding skills. I'm not a good bunnyhopper because it throws my aim off, and I don't use it. When you use a script to do it, you're just showing that you can't or WON'T do it with the keyboard. Either unskilled or lazy. Take your pick.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->And that's just your opinion. I'd be willing to bet you don't bunnyhop 'because it throws off your aim' - I wouldn't be surprised at all if you don't bhop because you <i>can't do it well enough to gain anything</i>. Bunyhoping in a 'real' situation - with framerate loss, ping and lag is humanly impossible to do consistently. You may be able to get some speed, but you won't to it as consistently as is possible with a script.
Does this mean the script bunnyhops for you? No. It doesn't make the impossible into the possible. If you can't bunnyhop because you don't know how, a script won't let you bhop. If you do know and have practiced the movement skills required, you can bunnyhop scriptless. All the scripting does is make it more of a learnable skill than a 'guess the right instant to press jump because lag makes it impossible to know exactly when you need to jump' minigame of NS.
<a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=85961' target='_blank'>Here is a tip for you: get some scripts and learn what they do.</a> It's always a god idea to know exactly what you're talking about when debating.
<!--QuoteBegin-DragonMech+Jan 14 2005, 01:02 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DragonMech @ Jan 14 2005, 01:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I have no problem with people bunnyhopping or "3 jumping" without a script. It shows that you have some decent keyboarding skills. I'm not a good bunnyhopper because it throws my aim off, and I don't use it. When you use a script to do it, you're just showing that you can't or WON'T do it with the keyboard. Either unskilled or lazy. Take your pick.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->And that's just your opinion. I'd be willing to bet you don't bunnyhop 'because it throws off your aim' - I wouldn't be surprised at all if you don't bhop because you <i>can't do it well enough to gain anything</i>. Bunyhoping in a 'real' situation - with framerate loss, ping and lag is humanly impossible to do consistently. You may be able to get some speed, but you won't to it as consistently as is possible with a script.
Does this mean the script bunnyhops for you? No. It doesn't make the impossible into the possible. If you can't bunnyhop because you don't know how, a script won't let you bhop. If you do know and have practiced the movement skills required, you can bunnyhop scriptless. All the scripting does is make it more of a learnable skill than a 'guess the right instant to press jump because lag makes it impossible to know exactly when you need to jump.'
<a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=85961' target='_blank'>Here is a tip for you: get some scripts and learn what they do.</a> It's always a god idea to know exactly what you're talking about when debating. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> A coworker and I were just talking about this.
We commonly copy files from one location to another. In some cases, it's the same files from the same locations to the same locations. So we write a batch file to copy those over when we need it. It reduces the time it takes and allows us to go do something else right away.
Bunnyhopping in itself is not a difficult task. It requires timing and some keyboard and mousing skills. Now, lets add someone firing at you, and then you firing at them, and then navigating the environment. Do you think that script gives you an advantage and prevents you from having to worry as much?
We all know that scripting only uses the commands and events from within the game, but it's how it automates those commands and events which gives the advantage. Technically, it's still a third party addition.
Remember how in Counterstrike you used to have to use the single BUY menu to get to everything? Now, they have separate Buy menus within the game for purchasing ammo for different types of weapons. In CS:S you can even repurchase entire weapon/equipment loadouts or purchase an optimal loadout. That all used to have to be done with scripting, so you can see that scripting in itself is not bad. It's how it's used that determines whether it's bad or not. (I can tell you after being caught with my pants down buying ammo in CS1.2, I learned how to navigate the buy menu REALLY quickly).
Comments
The only script in NS that I would say was unfair was the pistol script, but that script has been dead a long time, since 2.0 over a year ago really, becuase Flay changed the pistol from having an unlimited firing speed. When the discussion first started this was the problem script and what a lot of the non-scripting members came to associate with scripts.
So there was a lot of ignorance.
And there still is some (more on servers than the forums to be sure) but now I don't see as much ignorance as much as people <i>accused</i> of ignorance because they don't like/use scripts. People like guardian1 who has chosen his words quite carefully and attempted to make sure that he was clear that he didn't think scripting was cheating have been targeted. He thought it took skill out of the game; not because the players using it were unskilled, not because it gave them some sort of quick boost to their skills, but because it became a crutch. And I have seen several people jump all over him. I've seen some agree, but the same people who accuse others of "picking out only what they want to see" have similarly selective reading habits.
I don't use sripts because I think you can play better with out them, why learn a leap or swipe script when I'd be much more adaptable after learning lastinv and/or fastswitch 1. I don't care if you script I'm not goin got make a big deal out of it because I'd rather not see people get all defensive as if they have to defend the way they play the game.
As for the overall skill level which is what the post was orignially about it depends greatly on the server. All the same if I join a random server there are almost always a few good players. I just stick to the ones where I know a lot of reg/admins and that keeps me from getting accused of cheating somewhat. I think the consti icon helps too.
edit: So donate to Flayra to stop the accusations. -Tilda
well I'm glad you're not actually that stupid. good for you(no sarcasm totally sincere)
I'd call that selective reading. It was explicitly said that we was not comparing hacks and scripts, he was pointing out a flaw in "the hole's" logic.
And it also happens to be very likely to crash steam/HL when used more than once or twice. It's just easier to do it manually - I do.
<!--QuoteBegin-TranquilChaos+Jan 13 2005, 06:16 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TranquilChaos @ Jan 13 2005, 06:16 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Stop picking on Guardian just because he's right. Saying it's ok to use any legal advantage to win is exactly the same as saying that it's ok to use illegal advantages to win. The two arguements are one and the same, so stop your pointless bickering.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem is he's not right. By your reasoning, I could pose this question:
Professional sports forbid the use of steroids, but allow players to work out physically. Why not ban working out? Both using steroids and pumping iron increase strength - so why should either be allowed?
The answer: <i>because one provides an edge beyond normal human limits!</i> Steroids can make people faster and stronger physically than they ever could be without them. Weightlifting only enhances a person's natural strength.
The same is true for scripts and hacks. Hacks make it possible to empty 10 rounds out of your pistol in an instant - scripts can't. Hacks make it possible for a marine to move at 1000 units a second - scripts can't. In videogames, people miss. Hacks make it possible to never miss a shot. Scripts can't.
I'd call that selective reading. It was explicitly said that we was not comparing hacks and scripts, he was pointing out a flaw in "the hole's" logic. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well I was responding to only his post, and the way he said it really implied that that was what he meant. anyways that's all irrelevent now since he just admitted to being sarcastic(which makes the post make a lot more sense <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> ) a few posts back.
I have to whole-heartedly agree with this.
3/4ths of my clan, including myself, have left for WoW, and most of us were veterens from even the older days(myself since the exact beginning of 2.0).
To tell the truth, I think most of the better players are waiting till the next beta before we jump in. At least, I am.
I don't use any scripts. Do I think their evil and I must not touch them? No, I see no need for them.
Scripts HELP pubbers. It levels the playing field a bit. Guy can't do X, he starts using a script to help him. Through the script he learns more about the thing he can't do, and eventully he'll be able to do it without the script(with some practice) Guy who can do X without the script will do X better then the guy using the X script. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't feel that scripts are evil either. My stance is that they are a crutch.
I find it interesting that many people are saying that scripting isn't a substitute for skill and then they add in an exception like, "except with a 3jump script" or something like that.
I'll play the devil's advocate for a moment and admit that scripting alone does not make a good player. I will say that it makes a good player a better player though. Anything that reduces the difficulty of doing a complex or timing sensitive sequence of events gives an advantage over the average person not using them. I don't think that's open to debate. That's why people write batch files, or create applications that automate events or commands. It's hard to argue with.
I'm just calling a spade a spade.
Lets define our terms.
It's not illegal (against the law) to use hacks. You cannot get arrested. It IS however immoral and unsportsmanlike.
When you say there is an obvious line that cannot be crossed, please explain to me how people can cross that line every day. Obviously, SOME PEOPLE cannot discern that line and feel that it's ok to hack/cheat/exploit.
Again, my argument says that it's a matter of how people look at it. If someone does not have the ability (technical or otherwise) to use scripting, wouldn't that look like cheating to them? I'd have to say yes. Whether it's cheating or not is irrelevant, because it's subjective to the individual.
You have values that say that scripting is ok. Others have values that say it's cheap and "illegal". You can't argue with someone elses opinion. You can only state your own opinion and see what happens.
I have an idea. Someone go download an OGC cheat go on a lan and put on a speedhack. Besides going probably 50,000 ground speed you'll shoot a 30 round clip in .005 seconds. Lets put that against a 3jumpscript and a pistol script. Im sure we'll get a gigantic difference of both examples.
Cheats = Something that is literally impossible to do
Scripts = Something that can be done
Its basically as simple as that.
Its like those gatorade commercials. Drink this and gain extra vitamins to give you an extra boost! Should we ban gatorade because its 'cheap and unfair'?
I have an idea. Someone go download an OGC cheat go on a lan and put on a speedhack. Besides going probably 50,000 ground speed you'll shoot a 30 round clip in .005 seconds. Lets put that against a 3jumpscript and a pistol script. Im sure we'll get a gigantic difference of both examples.
Cheats = Something that is literally impossible to do
Scripts = Something that can be done
Its basically as simple as that.
Its like those gatorade commercials. Drink this and gain extra vitamins to give you an extra boost! Should we ban gatorade because its 'cheap and unfair'? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again, you have to give in to the principles of perspective. Some people view hacking as perfectly fine. You apply your morals to your argument and I can apply my morals to mine.
I have no problems with you scripting, but when people say that the no-scripting servers are **** and that pubs are ruining the community because of that, I have to fight back with my opinion. There's a lot more pubs than there are clans, and removing options from the game will only hurt both communities in the end.
It's like the argument that newbies are ruining the community. That's just a bunch of ellitist **** from people who don't want to share. By bringing other people up to your level, you make the community better as a whole.
And your comparison of Gatorade giving an unfair advantage? Well, caffeine has been outlawed in almost all physical competition, yet it's a common ingredient in many drinks. How far away is Gatorade from that? Some may say that it's not the same thing, but it's the same principle. Again, it's a matter of perspective.
The mouse issue is just going to another extreme of the argument. How far are people willing to take it? I could take it even futher forcing throttling of all games to the minimum specs to run it. Fair? If you want to take it to the extreme, yes, but the game and community would suffer because of it.
Edit: Of course you segregate the community by alienating players who play in a certain way, just because the sheep decided it's highly unfair and like cheating, without really knowing what they are talking about.
I'd like to agree, but I don't think scripts and hacks are in the same category.
I'd put hacks in the category of immoral and scripts in the category of unsportsmanlike.
But my opinion is very similar in that it's cool if you want to bind something to a key in the setup options, but the second that you use a script, you're using that as a crutch to make up for a lack of skill in some area.
If you can bunnyhop with a script its 'unsportmanlike".
What if you can do both? But prefer to use a script because its what I do.
Hacks are third party executables that completely alter the game from the way it has been designed to be played.
Scripts are in the game, and available for everyone to use legally, some just choose not to because that horrible angel on their right shoulder cries when they do. *tear*
You call us elitest bastards, but the fact of the matter is, you can't get over your own hate for yourself when you think you're hurting someone else's feelings over the internet when you dominate them with a 3jump script cause it's easier to bunnyhop at them like that.
Morals over a video game.. you all should just be emo.
FOR THE LAST GODDAMN TIME A PISTOL SCRIPT CANNOT, WILL NOT, AND WILL NEVER BE ABLE TO LET YOU SHOOT FASTER THAN ANY ONE ELSE, WITH OR WITHOUT A SCRIPT. THE PISTOL IS CAPPED, AND YOU CANNOT UNLOAD AN ENTIRE CLIP IN A GODDAMN MILLISECOND. LEARN YOUR freaking ARGUMENTS BEFORE WASTING YOUR TIME ARGUING THEM.
THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO WAY TO TELL IF SOMEONE IS SCRIPTING A PISTOL OR NOT, NOT A SINGLE DAMN WAY.
What you fail to realize is that graphical config menu writes to config files too. So with your logic the game engine itself is hacking/cheating making you a hacker.. does that really make sense?
People will adjust their game options any way they like to, menu or by hand, and their is nothing wrong with either. Try a pistol script once to see what it's really like.. it'll make you think differently I am sure of that much.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just a side comment on this, I don't think it's <u>all</u> elitist ****, I mean, we've all had games ruined because some new people don't know how to play. Of course, neither the game nor the community really try to help new players, so it's not really their fault. Still, there is truth to the statement that pubs are increasingly becoming full of people of....below-average skill level. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I find it interesting that many people are saying that scripting isn't a substitute for skill and then they add in an exception like, "except with a 3jump script" or something like that.
I'll play the devil's advocate for a moment and admit that scripting alone does not make a good player. I will say that it makes a good player a better player though. Anything that reduces the difficulty of doing a complex or timing sensitive sequence of events gives an advantage over the average person not using them. I don't think that's open to debate. That's why people write batch files, or create applications that automate events or commands. It's hard to argue with.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh but I'll do my damnedest.
The +3jump is an interesting case of a script. It <u>is</u> physically possible to bunnyhop without a script or mwheel (I do it) but it requires exceptional ping, luck, AND it is nearly impossible to keep it going for very long. A +3jump makes bunnyhopping accessible (remember, Flayra specifically left it in the game for aliens, it's a part of their gameplay) to people who a) have bad lag, and b) don't want to use the mwheel to bunnyhop. According to a previous definition, anything you can bind in the setup is perfectly fine. You can bind jump to mwheel down, so obviously that's "legal". And scripting gives people the option of doing this "legal" action a different way. That's what scripting is: customization. Sure you can do it <i>this</i> way, but why deny people the option of also doing it <i>that</i> way if they wish?
<!--QuoteBegin-the_hole+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (the_hole)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Hacks are third party executables that completely alter the game from the way it has been designed to be played.
Scripts are in the game, and available for everyone to use legally,<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Most important part of the hole's post.
Hacks are third party executables that completely alter the game from the way it has been designed to be played.
Scripts are in the game, and available for everyone to use legally, some just choose not to because that horrible angel on their right shoulder cries when they do. *tear*
You call us elitest bastards, but the fact of the matter is, you can't get over your own hate for yourself when you think you're hurting someone else's feelings over the internet when you dominate them with a 3jump script cause it's easier to bunnyhop at them like that.
Morals over a video game.. you all should just be emo.
FOR THE LAST GODDAMN TIME A PISTOL SCRIPT CANNOT, WILL NOT, AND WILL NEVER BE ABLE TO LET YOU SHOOT FASTER THAN ANY ONE ELSE, WITH OR WITHOUT A SCRIPT. THE PISTOL IS CAPPED, AND YOU CANNOT UNLOAD AN ENTIRE CLIP IN A GODDAMN MILLISECOND. LEARN YOUR freaking ARGUMENTS BEFORE WASTING YOUR TIME ARGUING THEM.
THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO WAY TO TELL IF SOMEONE IS SCRIPTING A PISTOL OR NOT, NOT A SINGLE DAMN WAY. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think you're getting overly emotional about it.
Notice that I never attack you or resort to "YELLING" to get my point across to you.
Maybe the problem with scripting is that it creates an artificial barrier that separates the community. I'd like to ask a question of the community.
If scripting were removed from Half-Life, would you quit playing NS? I don't think these forums have the ability to do a Poll, so I'll just stick to responses.
Notice that I never attack you or resort to "YELLING" to get my point across to you.
Maybe the problem with scripting is that it creates an artificial barrier that separates the community. I'd like to ask a question of the community.
If scripting were removed from Half-Life, would you quit playing NS? I don't think these forums have the ability to do a Poll, so I'll just stick to responses. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe he's getting angry because you are one of many many people here making ignorant posts. Yes there is an artificial barrier, it's called mp_blockscripts and was added because flayra listened to a bunch of whiney nubbies who don't know what scripting is.
Scripting will not be removed from HL. It's available in HL2 too you know. But if there wasn't the possibility to script in HL in the first place, there would be no problem.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just a side comment on this, I don't think it's <u>all</u> elitist ****, I mean, we've all had games ruined because some new people don't know how to play. Of course, neither the game nor the community really try to help new players, so it's not really their fault. Still, there is truth to the statement that pubs are increasingly becoming full of people of....below-average skill level. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I find it interesting that many people are saying that scripting isn't a substitute for skill and then they add in an exception like, "except with a 3jump script" or something like that.
I'll play the devil's advocate for a moment and admit that scripting alone does not make a good player. I will say that it makes a good player a better player though. Anything that reduces the difficulty of doing a complex or timing sensitive sequence of events gives an advantage over the average person not using them. I don't think that's open to debate. That's why people write batch files, or create applications that automate events or commands. It's hard to argue with.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh but I'll do my damnedest.
The +3jump is an interesting case of a script. It <u>is</u> physically possible to bunnyhop without a script or mwheel (I do it) but it requires exceptional ping, luck, AND it is nearly impossible to keep it going for very long. A +3jump makes bunnyhopping accessible (remember, Flayra specifically left it in the game for aliens, it's a part of their gameplay) to people who a) have bad lag, and b) don't want to use the mwheel to bunnyhop. According to a previous definition, anything you can bind in the setup is perfectly fine. You can bind jump to mwheel down, so obviously that's "legal". And scripting gives people the option of doing this "legal" action a different way. That's what scripting is: customization. Sure you can do it <i>this</i> way, but why deny people the option of also doing it <i>that</i> way if they wish?
<!--QuoteBegin-the_hole+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (the_hole)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Hacks are third party executables that completely alter the game from the way it has been designed to be played.
Scripts are in the game, and available for everyone to use legally,<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Most important part of the hole's post. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You make some good points.
Are people of below average skill bad for the community? No. A player is a player is a player. If you ask Michael Jordan if players that aren't as good as he is are bad for the league, I don't think that he'd say yes.
The average skill of the players doesn't make the community suffer. It makes some individuals suffer because of a lack of skilled competition. By the argument that the community is full of below average skilled players, invalidates the argument that the community suffers, because the community is now full of below average skill players. Hold on to your socks because it's going to get more complicated. NOW, the community has a new average skillset, which is lower than some of the people making the argument. Now those people are ABOVE the average skill of the community.
I can see why some people are upset. It's no fun if there's no competition. I certainly wouldn't keep playing a game if I'm consistently beating down every player/team that I play against. It's only fun for a short while before it gets boring.
But, that's a small percentage of the "community" that's having the issue. I think the term for this phenomenon is attrition. More players come into the community, skilled players, finding that there is no challenge, leave the community.
It's the circle of life, played out on NS.
I definitely don't want to get into the debate of whether bunnyhopping is unsportsmanlike or not. (It pisses me off, but it's a valid tactic in my opinion) It's how the bunnyhopping is performed that's being debated. Technically, scripting could be defined as third party, because it's something that's added from outside the game. It's semantics really. Lets look at the spirit of scripting. It assists you in doing something by automating a sequence of commands or events. For some people, this would be a daunting task if done manually. For some people, it's a mundane task that scripting takes over. In either case, it's something that gives an advantage over people who don't use it.
I have no problem with people bunnyhopping or "3 jumping" without a script. It shows that you have some decent keyboarding skills. I'm not a good bunnyhopper because it throws my aim off, and I don't use it. When you use a script to do it, you're just showing that you can't or WON'T do it with the keyboard. Either unskilled or lazy. Take your pick.
Notice that I never attack you or resort to "YELLING" to get my point across to you.
Maybe the problem with scripting is that it creates an artificial barrier that separates the community. I'd like to ask a question of the community.
If scripting were removed from Half-Life, would you quit playing NS? I don't think these forums have the ability to do a Poll, so I'll just stick to responses. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe he's getting angry because you are one of many many people here making ignorant posts. Yes there is an artificial barrier, it's called mp_blockscripts and was added because flayra listened to a bunch of whiney nubbies who don't know what scripting is.
Scripting will not be removed from HL. It's available in HL2 too you know. But if there wasn't the possibility to script in HL in the first place, there would be no problem. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Please, educate us. What is scripting?
Being employed in the IT industry, I've learned that scripting is the triggering a string of commands or events by using a command or event to do so.
If I am wrong, please correct me. I'm still waiting for "The Hole's" scripting forum so I can be more educated in it. But for now, I'm stuck with some very hostile people yelling and calling me names.
Please note that by calling someone a nub, noob, n00b, or newb, you're not endearing anyone to the scripting cause. You're alienating the people you're trying to explain your opinion to.
Try to explain your idea/opinion/argument without resorting to namecalling and in a concise manner and you'll be surprised at the results. You may not convert them to your opinion, but you won't start a flamewar either.
My post count is low, but please don't mistake me for being NEW to NS.
Lets keep it civil.
...
scripts and hacks in the same catagory? have you ignored everything dragon mech has said?
I bind and rebind stuff all the damn time in my console ingame, I have to eff with cl_rate cause if I don't set it to 4000 and it stays at 9999 I get 50-90 choke, I guess I'm a cheater cause I use my console.
seriously people, it looks like everyone is jumping in with there own oppinion and not reading other peoples posts, scripting is an intergral part of the HL engine, when you go the CS forums, one of the stickied threads is "here is all the scripts that most people find helpfull"
also, saying the argument of crossing the line from included to "if you know how"
if you spend 5 minutes of your time, you can know how as well, it's not that <a href='http://www.google.com' target='_blank'>hard</a>
I have no problem with people bunnyhopping or "3 jumping" without a script. It shows that you have some decent keyboarding skills. I'm not a good bunnyhopper because it throws my aim off, and I don't use it. When you use a script to do it, you're just showing that you can't or WON'T do it with the keyboard. Either unskilled or lazy. Take your pick.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->And that's just your opinion. I'd be willing to bet you don't bunnyhop 'because it throws off your aim' - I wouldn't be surprised at all if you don't bhop because you <i>can't do it well enough to gain anything</i>. Bunyhoping in a 'real' situation - with framerate loss, ping and lag is humanly impossible to do consistently. You may be able to get some speed, but you won't to it as consistently as is possible with a script.
Does this mean the script bunnyhops for you? No. It doesn't make the impossible into the possible. If you can't bunnyhop because you don't know how, a script won't let you bhop. If you do know and have practiced the movement skills required, you can bunnyhop scriptless. All the scripting does is make it more of a learnable skill than a 'guess the right instant to press jump because lag makes it impossible to know exactly when you need to jump' minigame of NS.
<a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=85961' target='_blank'>Here is a tip for you: get some scripts and learn what they do.</a> It's always a god idea to know exactly what you're talking about when debating.
I have no problem with people bunnyhopping or "3 jumping" without a script. It shows that you have some decent keyboarding skills. I'm not a good bunnyhopper because it throws my aim off, and I don't use it. When you use a script to do it, you're just showing that you can't or WON'T do it with the keyboard. Either unskilled or lazy. Take your pick.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->And that's just your opinion. I'd be willing to bet you don't bunnyhop 'because it throws off your aim' - I wouldn't be surprised at all if you don't bhop because you <i>can't do it well enough to gain anything</i>. Bunyhoping in a 'real' situation - with framerate loss, ping and lag is humanly impossible to do consistently. You may be able to get some speed, but you won't to it as consistently as is possible with a script.
Does this mean the script bunnyhops for you? No. It doesn't make the impossible into the possible. If you can't bunnyhop because you don't know how, a script won't let you bhop. If you do know and have practiced the movement skills required, you can bunnyhop scriptless. All the scripting does is make it more of a learnable skill than a 'guess the right instant to press jump because lag makes it impossible to know exactly when you need to jump.'
<a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=85961' target='_blank'>Here is a tip for you: get some scripts and learn what they do.</a> It's always a god idea to know exactly what you're talking about when debating. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A coworker and I were just talking about this.
We commonly copy files from one location to another. In some cases, it's the same files from the same locations to the same locations. So we write a batch file to copy those over when we need it. It reduces the time it takes and allows us to go do something else right away.
Bunnyhopping in itself is not a difficult task. It requires timing and some keyboard and mousing skills. Now, lets add someone firing at you, and then you firing at them, and then navigating the environment. Do you think that script gives you an advantage and prevents you from having to worry as much?
We all know that scripting only uses the commands and events from within the game, but it's how it automates those commands and events which gives the advantage. Technically, it's still a third party addition.
Remember how in Counterstrike you used to have to use the single BUY menu to get to everything? Now, they have separate Buy menus within the game for purchasing ammo for different types of weapons. In CS:S you can even repurchase entire weapon/equipment loadouts or purchase an optimal loadout. That all used to have to be done with scripting, so you can see that scripting in itself is not bad. It's how it's used that determines whether it's bad or not. (I can tell you after being caught with my pants down buying ammo in CS1.2, I learned how to navigate the buy menu REALLY quickly).