Want To Get Your Map Into Cal?
Zephor
Join Date: 2002-12-25 Member: 11547Members, Constellation
Join Date: 2002-12-25 Member: 11547Members, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">read this if interested</div> I really want to get some custom maps into CAL since I really think playing the same 5 maps over and over gets really lame really fast. I'm pretty sure there are quite a few maps out there that are very good but might not make it to official release. I would like to play a few of those.
For obvious reasons, I need to set a rule so that it will be a little orderly(I'll explain why too):
<b>Needs the approval of 2 clans(One omega clan and One delta clan). Meaning pms/emails from at least 4 members from each of the 2 CAL clans.</b>
Reason: I would like to have clans play a map before I even consider putting it into the season because it really will cause a lot of problems if we put in a map no one likes and no one will want to play. The main problem I found with enceladus was that even though one person really liked the map, the rest of the community did not enjoy it.
NS maps only
That's it. Get the approval of 2 clans and I will put it aside to be considered for next season's preseason, offseason, whatever. We're currently at week 3 in the CAL season. The season lasts 8 weeks and 4 weeks for playoffs. We will then go on a offseason where I can run some custom maps and 2 more weeks of preseason where we can run even more. If your map gets very good feedback from the clans we can put it into regular season rotation.
Few tips:
1.)Look at the CAL rosters:
<a href='http://www.caleague.com/?division=nso' target='_blank'>http://www.caleague.com/?division=nso</a>
In "Standings" there will be a list of all the active CAL clans. Delta clans are the experienced clans and omega are the newer clans. if you click on the team name you will be taken to their page which will show their webpage, irc channel, and record. Try and contact their leader or co-leader to ask them if they are interested in playtesting a map.
2.) Ask [exi]-Jmmsbnd007 in #nspickup if he will be interested in putting your map through the pug servers and stick around in the channel and watch for comments people make on the server. Talk to them and get feedback.
Any questions post here or email me at hsu@caleague.com
Submit all maps to my email at hsu@caleague.com
For obvious reasons, I need to set a rule so that it will be a little orderly(I'll explain why too):
<b>Needs the approval of 2 clans(One omega clan and One delta clan). Meaning pms/emails from at least 4 members from each of the 2 CAL clans.</b>
Reason: I would like to have clans play a map before I even consider putting it into the season because it really will cause a lot of problems if we put in a map no one likes and no one will want to play. The main problem I found with enceladus was that even though one person really liked the map, the rest of the community did not enjoy it.
NS maps only
That's it. Get the approval of 2 clans and I will put it aside to be considered for next season's preseason, offseason, whatever. We're currently at week 3 in the CAL season. The season lasts 8 weeks and 4 weeks for playoffs. We will then go on a offseason where I can run some custom maps and 2 more weeks of preseason where we can run even more. If your map gets very good feedback from the clans we can put it into regular season rotation.
Few tips:
1.)Look at the CAL rosters:
<a href='http://www.caleague.com/?division=nso' target='_blank'>http://www.caleague.com/?division=nso</a>
In "Standings" there will be a list of all the active CAL clans. Delta clans are the experienced clans and omega are the newer clans. if you click on the team name you will be taken to their page which will show their webpage, irc channel, and record. Try and contact their leader or co-leader to ask them if they are interested in playtesting a map.
2.) Ask [exi]-Jmmsbnd007 in #nspickup if he will be interested in putting your map through the pug servers and stick around in the channel and watch for comments people make on the server. Talk to them and get feedback.
Any questions post here or email me at hsu@caleague.com
Submit all maps to my email at hsu@caleague.com
Comments
OH WAIT AND SIEGE007!!!
Still has a few issues to work out, but overall a nice competative map.
ns_shiva is also a great map!
balance, detail and nice map^^.
gg
that's not because I took part with creating it,no it's because the map kicks **** and is way better than most Cal maps like ayumi or bast!
that's not because I took part with creating it,no it's because the map kicks **** and is way better than most Cal maps like ayumi or bast! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
bast isn't even a CAL map. Ayumi was only there because we needed something different. It might be changed for orbital.
~ DarkATi
I have to agree, lately, all the new official maps have gotten in by their looks, not so much their balance or viability for competivite play.
the process of making a new map into a balanced one has to start very early.
if the dev team / pt's see a new map for the first time when its 99% complete its most likely going to be a hell of a job to sort the unbalancing factors out.
e: i dont know the details but i think this is exactly what happened with ns_delta. and agora, to some extend.
yup
/me wonders who'd be up to writing such such post
I think people should take more of the initiative <i>ESPECIALLY CLANNERS</i> since they believe they know everything about making a good map. They need to step up and get involved early on with any project they see promise in so that 6+ months later when we have a finished map we don't have people complaining because they don't like the map completely ignoring the fact that we were asking for feedback all along the 6+ month development process.
Its your responsibility to gather feedback. If that means chasing them, then you chase. However its far easier when theres a relationship between you and the playtesters, for example clanmates or people who regually play on the same server(s) as you.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I think people should take more of the initiative ESPECIALLY CLANNERS since they believe they know everything about making a good map. They need to step up and get involved early on with any project they see promise in so that 6+ months later when we have a finished map we don't have people complaining because they don't like the map completely ignoring the fact that we were asking for feedback all along the 6+ month development process<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with you, but thats not something you can rely on. Not everyone regually checks the forums, much less the mapping ones, so new maps are easy to miss.
Dont expect clanners to come to you, reach out to them. Contrary to popular belief, they are generally really nice people <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I suppose I'll start with a few and see if anyone catches on. (This thread wasn't going places anyway):
-Lighting is very important. Competitive play is more geared towards who can shoot first, make maps bright enough that they can see pretty well but dark enough to allow for some sort of surprise.
-Wider hallways for all. No one likes getting stuck in a match and the wider your hallways the less likely someone will complain about getting caught in a corner or something. It is also better for both aliens and marines because marines have to watch more of a hallway to catch everything and aliens have to prepare to kill the marines
-Nodes near hives. It would be nice to have more nodes near hives. 2 nodes per hive is very good and very standard for some of the best maps. That way alien nodes dont get completely killed early game and makes happier alien teams and provide a challenge for the marines.
-Less doors. Competitive players do not like doors. The only thing they hate worse than doors are slow opening doors. If you really want a door on a map please make it open quickly or close quickly so marines can lock fades somewhere or fades can open it and get out before they die.
-Less graphics. Boxes and broken pieces of wall are nice but excess pipes and glowy thingies drop fps. FPS is very important for most people in the competitive scene.
-Not every hive needs to be seigable. Make one side seigable and the other side not. A good practice to start is to make seige rooms very easy to get into as alien and very hard to old for marines. You should not have long hallways going to seige rooms and aliens should not have to take more than 2 seconds to get from the hive to the seige point. Weldables should be for doors or vents. Not access to res nodes.
-For the love of god dont put so many weldables. Actually if you like weldables make them weld quickly and make it so that marines get a major advantage for welding it open.
-Watch out for ghost seiges. You should not be able to build a TF in one room and seige from another room. Ever.
-Sinking buildings. Please take the time to go into your own map and check to see if things sink into the floor. nothing bothers players than watching their chambers or tf sink into the ground while they play on a map that is suppose to be final.You can do this without a team.
-Make it easy to get into marine start as skulk. Add vents and stuff. That makes marine start just that much more vulnerable and keeps marines on their feet.
-Make hive rooms smaller. Well, It is ok to make some rooms larger but get some variety. When you have 3 rooms that make jping the easiest thing in the world it makes it very linear. Make 1 small room, 1 big room and 1 more small or big hive room.
-seige rooms should be easy to lerk and bile bomb. Just my own personal thought though <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
- Make maps smaller. Agora is way too big. hera is a tad big too. Tanith is a good size. I say maybe 15 seconds to walk to each hive from marine start. If you want to make a marines in the center map make it easy to move between hives and make hives FAR FAR away from ms. Enceladus had a huge problem with being able to walk to a easily seigable location within 10 seconds.
-Dont make vents easy to walk into by marines. Marines shouldn't be in vents. Make the higher up there
-
-
-
I've experienced something similar. I posted a layout for eon last year before i had even started mapping it, and only got responses from other mappers. To be honest i don't think it's mappers jobs to chase after competitive players for feedback, it's the the clanners who will benefit, so they should be showing some initiative. That's just my opinion though.
1. NOT possible in most cases
2. is not a garantue for a map that is fun to play
3. wont create a map that is playable for public and competative play
DONT GIVE TOO MUCH ON GUIDELINES!
maps to deal with for next betas:
ns_shiva
ns_marineris
ns_encladus
erm... ns_source <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Without copying something that does work ingame, its hard to make something and predict, well, how well it will work ingame.
you are welcome. I will add a personal thought to each of those statements. (comparrison competative / public play)
[QUOTE]Lighting is very important. Competitive play is more geared towards who can shoot first, make maps bright enough that they can see pretty well but dark enough to allow for some sort of surprise.[/QUOTE]
since clans know 100 different ways to raise ingame gamma to a eyehurting level there is no need to worry about lightning too much. you do fine if the map looks well lit with standart gamma settings.
[QUOTE]Wider hallways for all. No one likes getting stuck in a match and the wider your hallways the less likely someone will complain about getting caught in a corner or something. It is also better for both aliens and marines because marines have to watch more of a hallway to catch everything and aliens have to prepare to kill the marines[/QUOTE]
thats a matter of style. eclipse features some wide hallways aswell as narrow paths. but its perfectly balanced. narrow hallways are alienbased, wide areas are an advantage for marines. in my eyes its up to the mapper to balance it well, for both, competative and public play.
[QUOTE]Nodes near hives. It would be nice to have more nodes near hives. 2 nodes per hive is very good and very standard for some of the best maps. That way alien nodes dont get completely killed early game and makes happier alien teams and provide a challenge for the marines.[/QUOTE]
true. one res near/ in the hive and another in some distance but defendable.
[QUOTE]Less doors. Competitive players do not like doors. The only thing they hate worse than doors are slow opening doors. If you really want a door on a map please make it open quickly or close quickly so marines can lock fades somewhere or fades can open it and get out before they die.[/QUOTE]
its not that competative players doesnt like doors... they HATE them. and thats a tricky question. add doors into a map? shure, doors "block" players so they cant move in the specified direction without waiting up to 1 second. but on the other side doors are a important element to raise tension and action. the one who cant escape the shure way will stay longer and fight <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> so I dont see the point in hating doors unless you cant coordinate your movements. just make shure doors dont get blocked to easily by building structures.
[QUOTE]less graphics. Boxes and broken pieces of wall are nice but excess pipes and glowy thingies drop fps. FPS is very important for most people in the competitive scene.[QUOTE]
nothing is more annoying as to get stuck at a pipe or architecture. but if we would let competative players determine the design we would soon have a cycle of boxmaps. architecture should be well builded anyway.
[QUOTE]Not every hive needs to be seigable. Make one side seigable and the other side not. A good practice to start is to make seige rooms very easy to get into as alien and very hard to old for marines.[/QUOTE]
same thing for public play.
[QUOTE]You should not have long hallways going to seige rooms and aliens should not have to take more than 2 seconds to get from the hive to the seige point.[/QUOTE]
competative players knows the map better. so I dont see the point in having a "siege rescue route" of only 2 seconds. this may fit to public play. but in competative play you have to THINK before anything happens. ergo: secure the possible areas.
[QUOTE]Weldables should be for doors or vents. Not access to res nodes. For the love of god dont put so many weldables. Actually if you like weldables make them weld quickly and make it so that marines get a major advantage for welding it open.[/QUOTE]
weldable access to resnodes is just unnecessary in any way. weldables always have to make sense. so adding a weldable door requires an additional route. dont place weldables on a regular route, you will reduce the number of main routes. for competative play 4 weldable positions seems to be a good number. in doubt just leave them out.
[QUOTE]Watch out for ghost seiges. You should not be able to build a TF in one room and seige from another room. Ever.[/QUOTE]
makes your life easier.
[QUOTE]Sinking buildings. Please take the time to go into your own map and check to see if things sink into the floor. nothing bothers players than watching their chambers or tf sink into the ground while they play on a map that is suppose to be final.You can do this without a team.[/QUOTE]
my words. but sometimes you cant do anything about it. exspecially when using func_nobuild. the only thing I can say to players in this case: "judt think. there is no need to build there so you cant. servers you right thinking about cheating the system."
[QUOTE]Make it easy to get into marine start as skulk. Add vents and stuff. That makes marine start just that much more vulnerable and keeps marines on their feet.[/QUOTE]
this is DEFINETELY up to each mapper. but I doubt that even competative players like a rushable base when playing marines. not to mention the public players. in my eyes the marinebase should be the most save spot for marines in the map. when you dont get your **** out of the base, you will lose automatically. thats what the game is all about <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
[QUOTE]Make hive rooms smaller. Well, It is ok to make some rooms larger but get some variety. When you have 3 rooms that make jping the easiest thing in the world it makes it very linear. Make 1 small room, 1 big room and 1 more small or big hive room.[/QUOTE]
my personal guideline is to create 3 completely different hives. one large, jpfriendly, one small, ha friendly and one that is hard to get in but pretty siegeable. but that doesnt mean its easy. and thie guideline works for me.
[QUOTE]seige rooms should be easy to lerk and bile bomb. Just my own personal thought though[/QUOTE]
yes, give the aliens a chance and force the marines to "maintain" their outpost (ergo welder).
[QUOTE]Make maps smaller. Agora is way too big. hera is a tad big too. Tanith is a good size. I say maybe 15 seconds to walk to each hive from marine start. If you want to make a marines in the center map make it easy to move between hives and make hives FAR FAR away from ms. Enceladus had a huge problem with being able to walk to a easily seigable location within 10 seconds.[/QUOTE]
thats another tricky question. competative players like short routes. but routes for public play should be longer. and this balance is a really hard task.
[QUOTE]Dont make vents easy to walk into by marines. Marines shouldn't be in vents. Make the higher up there[/QUOTE]
unless they have jetpacks. you forgot to mention the style of entrance/exit of the vents. in my eyes most players like them to be clearly visible. but in my eyes there is no need for a vent when its clearly visible (and shottable). so I like to hide them so players can have an advantage of it when knowing the map. and to explore possible ways is another thing within ns that isnt seen much in maps.
last words: the rules for building a nice competative map compared to a public map arent this different. just the point with doors, the details on a map and exspecially the walktime from marinestart to each hive are something to think about.
EDIT:
sorry, I forgot <span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>NS_HULK</span> in my previous post, forgive me rendy <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
However, I'm completely the opposite of you, having never played NS competitively (CS and TFC yes) but having mapping experience. Maybe I and a few more mappers with a few competitive players could work together on it?
I'm not a modest guy, so I'll freely admit I have a flair for language. I'd make sure that it was written in a clear and understandable register so that everyone would understand them (all players, new and veteran). Once it's finished I'd even be prepared to take on French and Spanish translations of the guidelines (NS has always seemed a bit too polarised in my opinion, for example here we have a "Scrim" forum <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> ). It would be nice to promote a more diverse community, I can count on my fingers the names of the foreign contingent that I'm aware of on the NS forums (Mendasp, Nem0, oo0oo). It's a pity IPBoard only allows English on their product <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Back on topic I'll start today, taking reference from:
- The Official Mapping Guidelines
- ChromeAngel's Mapping Guide
- Draconis' "Competitive Map-Making" Sticky
- What you and any others post in this thread, so get the competitive players to come and help themselves out.
Back on topic I'll start today, taking reference from:
- The Official Mapping Guidelines
- ChromeAngel's Mapping Guide
- Draconis' "Competitive Map-Making" Sticky
- What you and any others post in this thread, so get the competitive players to come and help themselves out. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
everbody understands it... Im nobody then. because I have no clue what you are trying to do. melting all the guidelines together?
at the end there is only one important thing: as long as the ns community likes a map, everything is allowed <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->