[...]Don't think sensory will last like that. Especially because of highlevel team. Sensory got 'buffed' and now it's over powered (ok zuni not now <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> ). I think next version will remove some senso attributes or add marins new stuff.
_______________________
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And there are strategies that involve dropping one chamber in key locations.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, at last you stil get 3 of them... senso dc or MC... It is still 3 of them at least. Wherever alien put the chamber. I think i never saw a strategy with only one unit, of a chamber type...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I doubt there would be many games where you have 2 skulks start chomping on RTs at the same exact time, and even if you do, you can save/recap it<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You never played NS seriously... right? it is rare for me to do that but for this i say : LOL.
I'm talking about all the sound not only skulk chomping RT. There are a lot of thing a commander can hear. In fact this was enough a problem to make devs disable sound at the begining of the game for the commander player.
Pls enter the CC and learn how it is inside. And you gonna see a lot of new and weird things. Frankly this is not ironic. You gonna see so much unbelivable things... 5HAs killed in the hive etc... This will makes you think different.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'm not comparing the chamber effects<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You did in the first page...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> not useful at all in this situation" <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So what? Parasite the RT, your buddies with adrenaline will come... it's about teamwork. You must understand that silence is not a tool for chomping RT. It is an ambush tool. And after all you chomp RT with DC to.
NS is about teamplay not public style. I'm talking about the common public style. No really teamplay or fair play.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->But the source you just used says you can counter by standing still...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Obviously you would be the first one who win a game by standing still... impressive...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Uh... so if vets say something, it's law right?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Silence did not changed since the begining. MC is the most stable chamber in the game. So it just mean that a lot of vet know silence better than you do. You should take it as an experienced advice.
Just play it and one day you'll unlock the divine silent temple. But just play it. It may be hard at the beginning, but don't quit. Silence is really powered.
There are a lot more suprises (i think) and game enjoyement (from both sides) with MC.
If you build 3 mcs asap and then all go to silence and move in teams, marine team will really have hard time because usually they rely on that they can hear closing aliens. If they cant hear you, they don't expect you because they are only looking for camping aliens. And because it only takes 2 bites to kill armor 0 marine, whole team will be easily butchered. Many players don't even notice when their fellow marines are killed if they dont directly see it.
QuaunautThe longest seven days in history...Join Date: 2003-03-21Member: 14759Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
<!--QuoteBegin-SmoodCroozn+Mar 7 2005, 11:21 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SmoodCroozn @ Mar 7 2005, 11:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> As the commander, you can still hear the "UNDER ATTACK", so what's the point? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Just had to say: Thats gotta be the most effed up thing in this game. I'll play comm and won't get that message till the ENTIRE area is down around there. Whats up with that?
<!--QuoteBegin-SmoodCroozn+Mar 10 2005, 05:46 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SmoodCroozn @ Mar 10 2005, 05:46 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'm really tired of repeating the same argument I've said. Regardless of what anyone says, silence will only be useful in ambushes when the marine does NOT know where or even if you are coming, which is primarily early game. Celerity and adrenaline is useful in many more situations, more than just ambushing. Even if silence helps ambush, you can still ambush without silence. MT strips the ambushing element period, unless you have some lab controlled situation such as one where only one marine walks by himself, and if the marine does not noticed a blue blip above the doorway he is going to enter. When ambushing is weakened, so is the purpose of silence. I rest my case. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Except you're not repeating the same argument.
The argument you started out with was "Cloaking is better."
Somewhere along the way, you've changed that to "Celerity is better."
Very different arguments.
Silence and Celerity are very evenly matched depending on your playstyle and the playstyle of the opponents.
I feel you are discounting how much marines target using sound when they are in battle with an alien. This is the advantage silence gives that none of the other upgrades can match.
I say teamwork does more damage to cloaking than silence because of this fact. Your first bite when you have cloaking reveals you not only to the marine you've attacked, but also to all other marines in the room. They tend to react very quickly to the skulk bite sound - nearly as quickly as they do to the gorge burble. With silence, marines often don't pick up on what's going on until you've gotten the second bite in and a guy falls. This immediately improves your odds. With celerity, you may get that first bite in, but then you are in a fight for survival. True, you have better odds than the cloaker of surviving, but I'm not sure you have better odds than the silenced skulk.. especially if he got the early advantage in getting a man down before they were aware.
The cloaker must be like the spider. Set the trap and wait for the prey to come very close.
The silenced must be like the jaguar. Stalk the prey while remaining hidden, then pounce when it's unexpected.
The celeritied must be like the cheetah. Move in quickly to make the kill and then escape.
Once in the same room with the marines, MT means nothing. MT is only a hindrance to setting up an ambush. Not in the battle thereafter.
By the time marines are running around with MT and lots of obs, aliens have a second hive up. Silence STILL allows sneak attacks (all the easier on any para'd marine, because you can tell which way he is going and thus how to get round him), still allows you to move exceptionally fast with no audio queue, and at second hive you're talking about fades with whatever second hive upgrade they need. I state the obvious because silence is still viable UP TO ENDGAME. At endgame when marines are lamed into their last stand, silence is pretty pointless. As long as marines are mobile, silence has use.
Celerity makes noise. I shouldnt have to tell you this, but there it is. Celerity makes you very very fast but also very very noisy, which means marines don't even NEED MT because they can hear you 3 corridors away. Silence makes you pretty fast, and marines have no clue. Furthermore at second hive you have the silenced leaping skulk, which laughs at the lagging MT blip behind it, as myself and others have mentioned.
You don't seem to realise the power of silence. Speed is nice but its not that hot in tight spots. As a skulk, you expect to die. Silence allows you to do a decent bit of damage before getting hamburgered. Celerity is too noisy to allow any sort of surprise. Stop assuming this is all about the fade and wake up to the other creatures. I cited several examples, which you seem to have missed. Skulks/Fades benefit most because they can move faster than the MT blip, and they can easily flank marines before the marines know whats happened. Gorges have spit, which tracks a straight line back to their sniper hole, and lerks have a big spore cloud which again can be tracked back to their hidey hole. Gorges can still make use of silence for sneaky building, tho I'd wager adrenaline is the better bet for both classes. Since the vast bulk of offensive classes at early-mid game are going to be Fades and Skulks, it makes blindingly obvious sense to focus on them. Why worry about a noncombatant unit or a unit which only appears at endgame? SURPRISE is what its all about. Skulks really dont "need" celerity, neither do fades, as they can move very fast without it.
MT won't counter silence unless you happen to be looking at the skulk. Since you WILL NOT HEAR THE SKULK you're not going to be turning around to check your rear, or over your head, or in that little vent over there. You may see a little blip a few rooms away, but when you turn away from it the skulk/fade can have closed the distance by the time you look back. Remember, the aliens still hear you, and they just have to wait till they hear the clump clump clump of marines walking away.
A gorge is a noncombat class. If he takes celerity, more fool him. Adren healspam is great at first hive, and adren bilebomb is devastating at two hives. A wigglewalking gorge can outpace marines, so why waste your upgrade on celerity?
A skulk already moves very very very fast, and if you add in bhopping, strafing, and wiggling then you don't really need celerity so much. If there's more than 2 marines then you're likely going to die, so why bother with noisy celerity when silence almost guarantees you one kill, and then you can loop around for more flanking?
Celerity hit and runs are flawed once you lose the element of surprise. The chance of you surviving becomes steadily smaller the longer you spend in contact with marines who know your flight path.
Further, I've seen (and been) a silenced skulk take out a marine base. Noone hears it enter, it takes out the base guard, hops the mines, then takes out the structures. Two silenced skulks can get into a base, nail the obs, then spend the rest of the time laughing at any marine trying to spot them.
Taking celerity "for scouting" is hilarious. Bhop moves you just as well, and means you can take SILENCE, which is much more helpful for quietly para'ing marines. Also allows you to quietly take out any marine scout on his own. Its pretty pointless for travelling the map because MC lets you warp between hives, so you're never too far to bhop from the enemy.
As a silence fade I have ripped through marines. Silence and focus = one guaranteed hit and likely kill, and even without focus you can sneak in 2-3 swipes before the marines have time to bring their guns up. As a silence cara fade I can ambush sg rines or pick teams off one by one. Celerity is great for dodging, but since I only intend to blink in, do some damage, and blink out, I don't really need celerity at all. Again, blink makes celerity rather second rate, especially when silence offers a considerable edge on any marines who aren't looking at you.
Celerity and cara? Celerity focus? Far too noisy, every marine will hear you coming, and even if you flee to regenerate or meta yourself, the rines will hear the sloosh sloosh as you hide in the vent. A grenade later and its byebye alien.
As I previously stated several times now, a lerk is a fool to take celer or silence because for one he can't hide where his spores come from, and for two the lerk is a very fast flyer. Might be fun to take silence if you're a biting combat lerk, but thats a waste of your support abilities. Adren so much better.
Celerity is a pretty pointless choice at 1 hive. Maybe with Regen or Cara you can go for a real hit and run alien, but personally I prefer an ambush smack match. Silence and cara are viable all the way through to endgame, you can take a lot of damage and still come out smiling.
MT does NOT pinpoint the exact location of an alien. If you pay attention, MT has a tendency to lag behind. Aliens who are wise to this can alter their angle as they ENTER a room, meaning any marine firing at them will be hitting empty air. Once you PASS the marines, you can effectively vanish. Their MT means that have to be looking at you. Celerity skulks will get into a room ok, but then get blocked and mangled by marines. A silence skulk can disappear in a room of crowded rines, or force them to angle their guns at the roof/vents/etc... which means they're no longer covering the doorway.
My argument IS true. Play any game, its obvious to see the MT lagging a little. MT is a good indicator of something coming, but its not going to give you aimbot skills. Once its actually IN the room, and running around you, you need to be LISTENING for it behind you. Or, of course, you can do little 360 donuts and hope you pick it up on MT. Most people end up using MT as a guide to incoming attacks, but still rely on hearing to help them line up a shot. Silence allows you to sneak up behind someone... something which you CANNOT do with Celerity. Versus MT, celerity is hopeless. Marine sees you coming, hears you coming, lines you up, BAM. With silence you've an even chance of getting right behind the rine and killing him before he knows it. Its a small edge, but enough to tip the scale in favour of silence.
You CAN dodge MT with speed, and any claim to the contrary is effectively an utter lie. Speed = lagging sprites and lagging aim, which means you can make it INTO an area. Silence will allow you to get back out.
Celerity plus X offers few combos of any worth. Once HMGs, shotties, and upgraded armour start appearing, a marine can block a celer skulk and put several rounds into it. At least with silence you've a chance of getting one solid bite in, and a better than average chance of getting a second or third.
The devs have to factor in player skill to their upgrades. Boosting silence would make life insanely hard on marines. Skilled silence players are nasty pieces of work. If some people cant use silence, well thats unfortuante. Its the same with bhopping. Its been factored into game balance. If you can't bhop, then thats unfortunate, but alien speed isnt going to be boosted because it would make bhoppers almost impossible to counter.
Celerity bhop and bite is a joke.
The comm chair does NOT always play "your base is under attack". Second, in order to find out WHAT is under attack, you'll have to look on the map. Third, you'll have to tell the marines that the biting is happening to X structure from X side. Fourth, all those marines will have more pressing concerns with fades, onos, whatever. Fifth, I've personally done it, and I suck, so I know for a fact it works and works well. Sixth, in order to spot a silenced skulk attacking a certain structure, the comm will have to take time away from watching his marines. So every way you slice it, the aliens come away better off. All the more so if the comm jumps out. A silence skulk can take a comm if he's close enough, a celerity skulk cant do much fancy footwork if he's in an enclosed space. Lets not forget most MS are virtual bonsai bases.
Any speed related celerity boost is negated by bhop and wallstrafing. Once second hive arrives, leap nullifies it. Fades have blink from the get go, so they can cheerfully ignore celerity. Adren is awesome for support classes, but skulks really shouldnt be bitespamming that much, and a fade shouldn't be swiping like a newb on speed. Adren is nice for fancy fade blink antics, but hardly essential.
For the actual act of killing marines, silence comes off the best. Marines cant listen for you, so they have to rely on actually seeing you, and its very easy to find a way to avoid a marine's gaze.
Back to silly semantics -
Lerk and gorge are support classes. Silence is dumb because you can track their projectiles. Celerity is dumb because you're not running around much as gorge, and a lerk can fly fast as is. Adren is the best upgrade on balance. HOWEVER, silence lerks can do that crazy "Winged Teeth" thing with impunity, and a silenced cloaked gorge under an SC can build up insane amounts of lame without being spotted. Again, I speak from experience, both my own and others.
Only at ENDGAME does silence lose its usefulness, and at that point celerity is STILL pointless - you should be packing adren and spamming primal scream, etc.
A marine looking up at a skulk has just sacrificed his range of vision in order to snare one silenced skulk on the roof. And thats assuming his gamma is high enough to spot it, or its hiding in plain sight. Any marine spending his time staring at the roof is going to be ripped apart by the bulk of people on the ground. GFG. Spec any match, and most of the time you'll see guns pointed horizontally. For the 1 or 2 times you're hiding in the open above a door, you still have 8 times you sneaked behind 2 marines and got a solid kill plus crippling damage to the other.
You think MT defeats silence, you are wrong. MT tries to even the odds. But MT means you have to be looking at the alien. With celerity, you're making more noise than any other upgrade, the marines won't need MT because you'll be making enough noise to wake the dead. At least with adren you can have a bit of use against structures or spam para-ing the entire team. Celerity means you will NEVER sneak up on a marine who has a set of functional ears. Silence at the very least gives you a chance at sneaking up on marines. Learn the finer points of silence and it'll all make sense.
Celerity is tolerable if you cant bhop/strafe/wiggle, or if you lack any sort of skill at flanking. If you can listen to marines and know how many there are, and what direction they're heading, then you will reap huge benefits from using silence. Celerity good for rambo skulk xeno missiles, dirt poor at anything else the rest of the time.
Thats really long and I really don't want to bother going through it point by point but the premise that somehow with silence your better at killing marines once they have mt or an obs nearby is silly.
Necrosis: Silence IS countered by motion tracking. It isn't a complete counter no... there are still situations where silence helps after MT is up, just like focus is still adventagious after A1 is up, just much much less so then before.
Also celerity is an awesome upgrade, even if you can bunnyhop. If I am ever in doubt I will always go celerity. True the maximum Bhop speed isn't that much higher then any normal speed skulk, but it helps ALOT with circlestrafing and tracking, both of which can not be done while Bhopping. Bhop into the marine like normal, and as soon as you hit him shoot up his player hull and run down the wall behind his back, then circle strafe around to his front again. If dones successfully you have just given yourself about 4 bites worth of time exposed to the marine and even an HMG won't be hitting you much.
If you think a lerk without celerity is anywhere near as useful as one with you are kidding yourself. With celerity the thing becomes invincible to all but extreamly well placed shotgun shots and concentrated HMG fire. When I lerk with celerity I can generally fly into a room full of LMGs, bite one of them to death, and fly out, only taking any damage on the bite phase. You start wheeling the mouse around and flapping full speed with celerity and the thing just whizzes around almost compleatly unhittable. The only lerk upgrade that is even worth mentioning in comparison is adreneline. Which is much better for spore lerks, but forces them into a much less offecive possition, as the only thing they will have an easy time killing is rambo LMGs.
if you break my silence upgrade, i will BREAK your FACE.
personally, nothing beats floating in as a silence fade, and killing that lone marine BEFORE HE EVEN TURNS AROUND. nothing. i swear that's the only reason i play this game.
<!--QuoteBegin-Necrosis+Mar 10 2005, 02:59 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Necrosis @ Mar 10 2005, 02:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Fades have blink from the get go, so they can cheerfully ignore celerity. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> What? Celerity is the best Fade MC upgrade.
Silence is pretty good on Skulks though so I disagree with the OP.
<!--QuoteBegin-Nadagast+Mar 11 2005, 02:43 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nadagast @ Mar 11 2005, 02:43 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Necrosis+Mar 10 2005, 02:59 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Necrosis @ Mar 10 2005, 02:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Fades have blink from the get go, so they can cheerfully ignore celerity. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> What? Celerity is the best Fade MC upgrade.
Silence is pretty good on Skulks though so I disagree with the OP. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Celerity is a must for fades.
even if silence was a week skill (which it isn't) the MC is still the best first hive chamber by far. no matter what anyone says, you get adren celerity and silence... 3 totally awesome skills. DC's only benifit high lifeforms and Sens mostly helps small lifeforms (yes SOF is handy for everyone but when your an onos does it really matter if you get surprised by a lone marine?) but MC is good for everyone, Celerity skulks are better hunters and ambushes. Silent strikes are funny as heck. and Adren lerks are awesome... every lifeform can get WAY more out of your MC then any other chamber... MC first FTW...
the point of silence is also to help leap-bites from the back, if you leap bite with cele, the rine will hear you and turn around, with silence the marine will turn around after the first or second bite
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Well, at last you stil get 3 of them... senso dc or MC... It is still 3 of them at least. Wherever alien put the chamber. I think i never saw a strategy with only one unit, of a chamber type...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe it's just me, but sometimes, I like going to a good spot in vents and dropping a chamber in there to help in the field. The free upgrades that the skulks instantly get may be of some use as well. I'm not going to argue on this part any further.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You never played NS seriously... right? it is rare for me to do that but for this i say : LOL.
I'm talking about all the sound not only skulk chomping RT. There are a lot of thing a commander can hear. In fact this was enough a problem to make devs disable sound at the begining of the game for the commander player.
Pls enter the CC and learn how it is inside. And you gonna see a lot of new and weird things. Frankly this is not ironic. You gonna see so much unbelivable things... 5HAs killed in the hive etc... This will makes you think different.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe, it's just me, but I always know what is being attacked due to the "JOR BASED ARE BEING SMACKED" sound. If you have problems with it, well, just live with it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You did in the first page...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I only argued with your statement saying MC has more benefits than the other chambers. Regardless, it's not relevant to the thread, so again, let's drop this.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So what? Parasite the RT, your buddies with adrenaline will come... it's about teamwork. You must understand that silence is not a tool for chomping RT. It is an ambush tool. And after all you chomp RT with DC to.
NS is about teamplay not public style. I'm talking about the common public style. No really teamplay or fair play. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have already said it's only useful in situations in ambushes. Just because you don't have adrenaline doesn't mean you can't help chomp RTs. Teamplay versus public style? I just don't understand what you are trying to say.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Obviously you would be the first one who win a game by standing still... impressive...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Standing still for ambushes.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Silence did not changed since the begining. MC is the most stable chamber in the game. So it just mean that a lot of vet know silence better than you do. You should take it as an experienced advice.
Just play it and one day you'll unlock the divine silent temple. But just play it. It may be hard at the beginning, but don't quit. Silence is really powered.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your opinion on MC is your opinion. Some people prefer recon with sensory or the extra armor with defense. Again, silence IS formidable in the early game, no doubt, but MT diminishes it's effectiveness significantly later on. And I would like to see this silent temple. ^_^
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If you build 3 mcs asap and then all go to silence and move in teams, marine team will really have hard time because usually they rely on that they can hear closing aliens. If they cant hear you, they don't expect you because they are only looking for camping aliens. And because it only takes 2 bites to kill armor 0 marine, whole team will be easily butchered. Many players don't even notice when their fellow marines are killed if they dont directly see it.
Silence is brutal if used right from start. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yea, silence is useful in ambushes in the early game, but it doesn't work as well when marines use teamwork by sticking together, which is a good thing. That doesn't change the fact MT weakens it later on.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Just had to say: Thats gotta be the most effed up thing in this game. I'll play comm and won't get that message till the ENTIRE area is down around there. Whats up with that? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you bothered to read one of my insanely long posts, you might have found where I stated that I used that as an example of how silence is only useful when ambushing, while adrenaline and celerity are more flexible and useful in more situations.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Except you're not repeating the same argument.
The argument you started out with was "Cloaking is better."
Somewhere along the way, you've changed that to "Celerity is better."
Very different arguments.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, I had 1 argument which was silence is weak. However, I did present 4 different examples, so you are partially correct.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Silence and Celerity are very evenly matched depending on your playstyle and the playstyle of the opponents.
I feel you are discounting how much marines target using sound when they are in battle with an alien. This is the advantage silence gives that none of the other upgrades can match.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
When you see the alien, silence becomes useless, period. Silence is only useful when you ambush AND get the kill. You will die before you get kills in a group of marines.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I say teamwork does more damage to cloaking than silence because of this fact. Your first bite when you have cloaking reveals you not only to the marine you've attacked, but also to all other marines in the room. They tend to react very quickly to the skulk bite sound - nearly as quickly as they do to the gorge burble. With silence, marines often don't pick up on what's going on until you've gotten the second bite in and a guy falls. This immediately improves your odds. With celerity, you may get that first bite in, but then you are in a fight for survival. True, you have better odds than the cloaker of surviving, but I'm not sure you have better odds than the silenced skulk.. especially if he got the early advantage in getting a man down before they were aware.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now you argue with silence vs cloak and bring in celerity. So who's the one changing arguments again? Anyway, even as you state a bite sound can be a useful hint of danger, I also believe when someone in your group shoots something, the rest of the group is also alerted. I'm not arguing silence is weak EARLY game, I'm saying later on, you can't get those 2 bites in with armor ups and you can spot the silent skulk BEFORE you enter the room, and then silence becomes weak. Silence is just a slight buff to ambushing, which you could already do without the upgrade.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The cloaker must be like the spider. Set the trap and wait for the prey to come very close.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can move while being cloaked. And you can come close enough to actually watch the way the marine is facing and choose actions from there. With MT, you will also have to stay still, so I think it applies to both upgrades.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The silenced must be like the jaguar. Stalk the prey while remaining hidden, then pounce when it's unexpected.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can wait for the marine to come close enough to you and bite his back when you are cloaked as well. With cloaking, you can adjust to an incoming marine because you can see him BEFORE he becomes close enough to grab you. With silence, you will have to wait for him to enter the room, before you start making actions. You can see the marine from plain view when cloaked, while you must hide in careful areas when silent. Ultimately, cloaking allows you to plan actions better since spotting a marine is much easier.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The celeritied must be like the cheetah. Move in quickly to make the kill and then escape.
Once in the same room with the marines, MT means nothing. MT is only a hindrance to setting up an ambush. Not in the battle thereafter. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Silence is destroyed once a marine sees you. With this said, silence only works behind a marine. With cloaking, you can change your position so you are behind the marine. With silence, you must wait for the marine to look the other way before pouncing on him. Like I said above, cloaking gives you more control on the ambush, rather than hoping for the marine to make the right moves. And, you are also going to have to hope the marine did not see you moving to an ambush spot with MT, BEFORE he enters the room.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->By the time marines are running around with MT and lots of obs, aliens have a second hive up. Silence STILL allows sneak attacks (all the easier on any para'd marine, because you can tell which way he is going and thus how to get round him), still allows you to move exceptionally fast with no audio queue, and at second hive you're talking about fades with whatever second hive upgrade they need. I state the obvious because silence is still viable UP TO ENDGAME. At endgame when marines are lamed into their last stand, silence is pretty pointless. As long as marines are mobile, silence has use.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can tell which way he may be going, BUT you can't tell which way he is facing. Trust me, these are 2 different things, that is vital to a successful silent ambush.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Celerity makes noise. I shouldnt have to tell you this, but there it is. Celerity makes you very very fast but also very very noisy, which means marines don't even NEED MT because they can hear you 3 corridors away. Silence makes you pretty fast, and marines have no clue. Furthermore at second hive you have the silenced leaping skulk, which laughs at the lagging MT blip behind it, as myself and others have mentioned.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Silence does NOT beef speed in anyway, so stop using that phrase. If MT lags a silence skulk, imagine the lag when it's on a faster, celerity skulk. Again, if the marine sees you incoming, it won't matter if you are silent or not. Silence is only advantageous in an ambush when you GET the kill, so leaping skulks would be better off with celerity.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->MT won't counter silence unless you happen to be looking at the skulk. Since you WILL NOT HEAR THE SKULK you're not going to be turning around to check your rear, or over your head, or in that little vent over there. You may see a little blip a few rooms away, but when you turn away from it the skulk/fade can have closed the distance by the time you look back. Remember, the aliens still hear you, and they just have to wait till they hear the clump clump clump of marines walking away.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your first statement does not make sense. How does MT counter silence in a room with a skulk, when blues circles only show when THEY ARE BEHIND A WALL. The clump clump of marines make silence even more laughable. Silence works best on a 1 on 1 situation, because once you are spotted, the advantage is lost. So when you are spotted by multiple marines, silence was only useful in hitting the first marine, from there, the benefits end. Celerity however, will make it harder for the marines to aim on you, and lets you escape quicker.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->A gorge is a noncombat class. If he takes celerity, more fool him. Adren healspam is great at first hive, and adren bilebomb is devastating at two hives. A wigglewalking gorge can outpace marines, so why waste your upgrade on celerity?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because of wigglewalking marines.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->A skulk already moves very very very fast, and if you add in bhopping, strafing, and wiggling then you don't really need celerity so much. If there's more than 2 marines then you're likely going to die, so why bother with noisy celerity when silence almost guarantees you one kill, and then you can loop around for more flanking?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because it pushes those advantageous even further. In a situation with 2 marines, silence will only be useful for one of them IF you get a kill, celerity however, is still useful on both.
Celerity hit and runs are flawed once you lose the element of surprise. The chance of you surviving becomes steadily smaller the longer you spend in contact with marines who know your flight path.
Celerity was never meant to use surprise. Its main purpose is that you get from point A to B faster. Silence is even worse in hit and run situations.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->personally, nothing beats floating in as a silence fade, and killing that lone marine BEFORE HE EVEN TURNS AROUND. nothing. i swear that's the only reason i play this game. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your going to have to assume the direction the marine faces when you enter the room. If the marine sees even a trace of you, the element of surprise is over. And who says you can't do the same job just as well or even better against a lone marine with celerity?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Silence is pretty good on Skulks though so I disagree with the OP. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As I said before, silence is viable early game, but once upgrades are researched, silence becomes absolutely nerfed compared to celerity or adrenaline. Silence is useless when marines spot you. That's why straight frontal assaults are not suited for it. MT however pinpoints your exact location, so at best, you might as well stand still and jump down on the marine. The difference between a silent ambush and a non silent one is when your drop and come close enough to bite the marine. I disagree that this makes silence worth using because these sort of situations don't happen all the time, are easily countered when marines move in packs, and the sound played when dropping and walking won't be significant if you are already close enough behind the marine.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->even if silence was a week skill (which it isn't) the MC is still the best first hive chamber by far. no matter what anyone says, you get adren celerity and silence... 3 totally awesome skills. DC's only benifit high lifeforms and Sens mostly helps small lifeforms (yes SOF is handy for everyone but when your an onos does it really matter if you get surprised by a lone marine?) but MC is good for everyone, Celerity skulks are better hunters and ambushes. Silent strikes are funny as heck. and Adren lerks are awesome... every lifeform can get WAY more out of your MC then any other chamber... MC first FTW...
and silence really is super good. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Noone said MC was bad, so I don't see why you bothered to add your opinion on it. We aren't just comparing chamber upgrades to other chamber, but also the upgrades on a single chamber versus its 2 other siblings. I like MC, don't get me wrong, but we are pinpointing silence, not the entire chamber.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->the point of silence is also to help leap-bites from the back, if you leap bite with cele, the rine will hear you and turn around, with silence the marine will turn around after the first or second bite <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Even if you have silence, you will have to assume which direction he is facing before you engage him. Not only that, but you also have to assume that he is by himself, as it is very likely for the skulk to be killed by the SECOND marine in the group. Thirdly, to see a marines back means that you have to wait for him to pass you, since once you are spotted, silence is useless. Fourthly, it's only going to be useful if you GET the kill. If you ambush, fail and retreat, you can do that with adrenaline or celerity.
Sure silence may be better in this situation, but in all others, celerity is much better. You have to focus on other scenarios, not just a minority.
<!--QuoteBegin-Nadagast+Mar 11 2005, 04:43 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nadagast @ Mar 11 2005, 04:43 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Necrosis+Mar 10 2005, 02:59 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Necrosis @ Mar 10 2005, 02:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Fades have blink from the get go, so they can cheerfully ignore celerity. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> What? Celerity is the best Fade MC upgrade.
Silence is pretty good on Skulks though so I disagree with the OP. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Lies, adren is the #1 Fade upgrade.
As well as silence/redem skulks are really frustrating to play against.
<!--QuoteBegin-SmoodCroozen+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SmoodCroozen)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Silence is destroyed once a marine sees you.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is only true if you're dealing with marines with perfect tracking.
This is what I, and others, keep saying, and what you keep totally ignoring. Many marines track their target in a fire-fight to a great extent by the sound it makes as it runs around.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Do you deny this is the case? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ya. Once a skulk starts bunny hopping down a hall at you hearing isn't that important...
I'm going to be honest. I stopped reading at the end of page 4.
So to review:
I really do have to laugh at people a little that say MT can be confusing. It's really only confusing if you only rely on the blue blips. Yes, they don't update fluidly as to let you know where the alien is PRECISELY, but if you hold down your map button for a moment, I'm pretty certain that those red blips move quite smoothly, providing you with a wealth of information.
Edit: If you say that you play only by sound, you have deemed yourself inflexible. I play by both sound and sight (MT), but once MT is researched, I play primarily through planning and anticipation by watching my Big Map while on the move. I am able to see where the aliens are at all times and if I see an alien suddenly stop in the room I am heading to, I know now that I can sneak up on that alien and reverse their intended ambush. I can communicate to my squad to be quiet as well. Remember, we're talking about Silence primarily. So, the alien can be as quiet as it wants, but I still know where he is and I'll know if he changes positions.
MT eliminates the purpose of silence, which is, as I understand, to be able to move across the map at top speed and avoid detection. As well as ambush marines without them being able to easily-detect you. Armor still makes noise when damaged.. Silence also allows you to actively confuse a group of Marines if you run past them, parasite them, and then run away and ambush them shortly thereafter.
Silence is powerful in the early game. To be overly technical, MT doesn't destroy silence, but you'll have to be needlessly patient and have to have an extensive understanding of Marine strategy for it to be effective. So, it does put the learning curve for silence up far higher since you're now relying directly upon ambushes.
Then again, you'll appear on the enemy's minimap if you attack them from behind anyway, so there's your point. Silence still delays the reaction time if you use patient ambush tactics, but then again, when the marines have MT, they'll probably be moving with more confidence, which means you'll probably have to change your ambush position many times in order to stave off Marine Territory expansion. Since I'm sure you don't wish to move so slowly MT doesn't detect you to get across the map, I can again see your point that Silence has been greatly nerfed by MT.
So, my suggestion borrows from someone else's suggestion. I believe they said that Observatories should provide reliable MT tracking to Marines nearby Observatories. So, if you were out in the field, your MT would be less-reliable. They said that the blips should update in intervals (On your map, not on screen since the blue reticles already blip in intervals.) when you are away from an Obs. However, that wouldn't really solve the problem of MT nullifying Silence.
Then again, would it? On your minimap, if you're quick, you would be able to bite a marine in the back three times in an ambush before you appeared on their minimap, assuming the marine is out in the field.
So, we come back to tweaking the idea of making MT unreliable when away from an Obs.
Or a new-ish proposition. Maybe Motion Tracking should come in three upgrades, each one increasing its relability, range, whether or not being within an Obs' sensor range will give you 100% reliability or not.
Due to my inexperience with resource management, I can't really provide the-most-reliable specifics (Ex: MT1 Cost X Resources MT2 Cost X Resources..), but since I've been playing NS for a few years, I have the prerequisie experience to talk about the gameplay to an extent, but feel free to point out for me things that would change in game mechanics due to things like: Motion tracking that doesn't update so smoothly.
Ok, now for a radical suggestion since I believe that Silence is a strong upgrade, but I also believe that it shouldn't be so absolutely nerfed by Motion Tracking.
Note: This is an extremely unscientific suggestion. I'm pretty certain that it is too-radical a suggestion to work in gameplay and make MT rushes useless or investing in MT too-risky. But here goes.
Level 1 Motion Tracking(15 res / 1 minute reserach): Aliens with Silence/Cloak Upgrade aren't detected until they come within minimap range. Blips do not display on the Big Map unless aliens come within Obs range for marines in-field. Being near an Obs provides marines with LV2 MT. Blue Circles update slower than normal for in-field marines. Commander can see Big Map blips, but they update as fast as blue circles.
Level 2 MT(25 res / 2 minute research): Aliens w/ Silence/Cloak are now detected as if they were normal aliens. Being near an Obs provides Normal MT Reliability. Map updates in the field update as quickly as blue circles update. B.C. Update Rate is now normal. Commander's Big Map updates smoothly.
Lv 3 MT(35 res / 3 minute research): MT as it is now. Being near an Observatory will provide smooth Blue Circle blips if aliens are 50 units outside of Uncloak range (only if they move quickly). Commander gains no benefit.
Or
Provide Motion Tracking as a hand-held upgrade with Normal MT benefits. Research Cost: 30 Res 3 minutes. Commander deploys the upgrade at a cost of 8 res each. Marines pick up MT. Marines Die. Comm drops new MT packs. Gives the marine the visual as having a night-vision attachment instead of their visor.
I appologize that my post isn't well constructed. I'm just spouting off thought as it comes to me. Hopefully I stayed on-topic longer than most of the people I've seen post.
ShockehIf a packet drops on the web and nobody's near to see it...Join Date: 2002-11-19Member: 9336NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
<!--QuoteBegin-ThorStryker+Mar 10 2005, 01:54 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (ThorStryker @ Mar 10 2005, 01:54 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> End Result: Silence is an early upgrade that gives skulks a chance to surprise players that have moderate skill, and players with lack of team work. Its more suited torward pubs where skill varies. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I agreed with your post mostly Thor, up until I read this.
Silence is <b>the</b> most scary upgrade for a PCW/Clan level player to deal with, as you learn to rely on sound so much. (Even after MT, often) Sound with headphones allows you to basically have a free short-range MT at all times, and has resulted in more 'h4x' accusations than anything else.
Silence removes one of the founding tenets to getting the drop on enemy players, an advantage that often makes the difference in who dies. Celerity is good for all lifeforms, don't get me wrong, but a smattering of Silence users can make all the difference a lot of the time, particularily if they move together.
That_Annoying_KidSire of TitlesJoin Date: 2003-03-01Member: 14175Members, Constellation
just addressing the first post, even if the alien who bites something makes no noise, the physical act of biting the metal would make noise, hence the noise that can be heard.
I remember when silence just silenced the sound of the bite, the aliens still made other noise. Silence has been beefed up insanely, it's still lethal when used correctly. Most competitive players use sound very effectively, and when you remove with silence it gives you an advantage, it's just up to you to use that advantage to the fullest.
I've always thought of silence as a even further upgrade for cloaking, silence alone is (in most cases) useless, since mt is a pretty (if not a very) commong upgrade.
And as the origanal post stated, silence needs a buff to be effective by itself. IMHO silencing completely the attack/hit sounds could be the answer, but the "structure under attack" alert should stay.
Heck, why not I say, beta test it and we'll se some results instead of talking about it!
MT is not the counter to Cloaking, oh god. It's the counter to Celerity or Silence. "Why" is best left for another thread.
Silence is fine as it is. The only conceivable change I could see is reducing the distance that the "structure hit" sound plays. That is, a Skulk's Bite sound can be heard from ~600 units (the actual distance doesn't matter for this example) but the Bite-Hit (the only thing you hear when you attack with Silence) sound can only be heard from ~450 units.
I can't be bothered to read the whole thread but the general problem seems to be that MT permanently shuts off the usefulnes of various upgrades (mainly Silence). So why not make MT a temporary effect? Reduce cost and possibly research time. Now you click on the observatory and set off MT like a scan. It also only lasts for a period of time rather than 24/7. Using MT takes energy just like scan. Good idea or no?
It is true shockwave, high-level clan players do tend to use their sound more than intelligent gameplay. But the smart player, at any level, will always turn around, back into a corner, or play in cooperative teams in order to prevent any ambushes or assaults in any direction. Sound makes people think they are invulerable just because they can here whats coming, if they don't realize that aliens have Movement chambers, (Or have selected silence in CO.) then they deserve to die, and call Silenece an excellent upgrade. But if you wanna be a really good player, always check your six. (And above you in most cases.)
Then again, I mainly play lerk with celerity now, thats why im so zealous about celerity being good. The biting missile is the ultimate assasin and jp hunter. ^_^
Celerity lerks are rather the exception than the rule. Spore, Umbra, and Primal Scream are devastating with adren. In terms of team support, you can do no better.
I did cover the flying teeth in my posts, but tbh they're a rarity.
Silence is perfectly fine as it is. when im playing NS, and i get bitten from behind, my reflexs auto spin me 180 looking at the ground and fire. silence kinda screws that up for me and alot of other people because our minds are trained to recognise the skulk biting sound, not the sound that is made from the armor being crunched.
also, shocks statement about sound with headphones is true, its basically early MT for skulks. if im skulking, i know what upgrade i always take. silence.
<!--QuoteBegin-Necrosis+Mar 12 2005, 12:34 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Necrosis @ Mar 12 2005, 12:34 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Celerity lerks are rather the exception than the rule. Spore, Umbra, and Primal Scream are devastating with adren. In terms of team support, you can do no better.
I did cover the flying teeth in my posts, but tbh they're a rarity. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> celerity lerks (and fades) are not the exception but exactly the rule, especially if you get mc's first (which is pretty common).
<!--QuoteBegin-SmoodCroozn+Mar 8 2005, 01:21 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SmoodCroozn @ Mar 8 2005, 01:21 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> First of all, it is ineffective at stages 1 or 2. Silence isn't "silent" unless there is ABSOLUTELY no sound. You could hide above the doorway and wait until that marine pops out, but if you had a level 2 silence upgrade or not, it won't matter as that marine WILL hear your drop to the ground. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> If that's all you're doing when you attack marines, perhaps you should just get cloak?
Comments
not
[...] Don't sensory got 'buffed' [...]
But
[...]Don't think sensory will last like that. Especially because of highlevel team. Sensory got 'buffed' and now it's over powered (ok zuni not now <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> ). I think next version will remove some senso attributes or add marins new stuff.
_______________________
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And there are strategies that involve dropping one chamber in key locations.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, at last you stil get 3 of them... senso dc or MC... It is still 3 of them at least. Wherever alien put the chamber. I think i never saw a strategy with only one unit, of a chamber type...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I doubt there would be many games where you have 2 skulks start chomping on RTs at the same exact time, and even if you do, you can save/recap it<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You never played NS seriously... right? it is rare for me to do that but for this i say : LOL.
I'm talking about all the sound not only skulk chomping RT. There are a lot of thing a commander can hear. In fact this was enough a problem to make devs disable sound at the begining of the game for the commander player.
Pls enter the CC and learn how it is inside. And you gonna see a lot of new and weird things. Frankly this is not ironic. You gonna see so much unbelivable things... 5HAs killed in the hive etc... This will makes you think different.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'm not comparing the chamber effects<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You did in the first page...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> not useful at all in this situation" <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So what? Parasite the RT, your buddies with adrenaline will come... it's about teamwork. You must understand that silence is not a tool for chomping RT. It is an ambush tool. And after all you chomp RT with DC to.
NS is about teamplay not public style. I'm talking about the common public style. No really teamplay or fair play.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->But the source you just used says you can counter by standing still...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Obviously you would be the first one who win a game by standing still... impressive...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Uh... so if vets say something, it's law right?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Silence did not changed since the begining. MC is the most stable chamber in the game. So it just mean that a lot of vet know silence better than you do. You should take it as an experienced advice.
Just play it and one day you'll unlock the divine silent temple. But just play it. It may be hard at the beginning, but don't quit. Silence is really powered.
There are a lot more suprises (i think) and game enjoyement (from both sides) with MC.
Silence is brutal if used right from start.
Just had to say: Thats gotta be the most effed up thing in this game. I'll play comm and won't get that message till the ENTIRE area is down around there. Whats up with that?
Except you're not repeating the same argument.
The argument you started out with was "Cloaking is better."
Somewhere along the way, you've changed that to "Celerity is better."
Very different arguments.
Silence and Celerity are very evenly matched depending on your playstyle and the playstyle of the opponents.
I feel you are discounting how much marines target using sound when they are in battle with an alien. This is the advantage silence gives that none of the other upgrades can match.
I say teamwork does more damage to cloaking than silence because of this fact. Your first bite when you have cloaking reveals you not only to the marine you've attacked, but also to all other marines in the room. They tend to react very quickly to the skulk bite sound - nearly as quickly as they do to the gorge burble. With silence, marines often don't pick up on what's going on until you've gotten the second bite in and a guy falls. This immediately improves your odds. With celerity, you may get that first bite in, but then you are in a fight for survival. True, you have better odds than the cloaker of surviving, but I'm not sure you have better odds than the silenced skulk.. especially if he got the early advantage in getting a man down before they were aware.
The cloaker must be like the spider. Set the trap and wait for the prey to come very close.
The silenced must be like the jaguar. Stalk the prey while remaining hidden, then pounce when it's unexpected.
The celeritied must be like the cheetah. Move in quickly to make the kill and then escape.
Once in the same room with the marines, MT means nothing.
MT is only a hindrance to setting up an ambush. Not in the battle thereafter.
By the time marines are running around with MT and lots of obs, aliens have a second hive up. Silence STILL allows sneak attacks (all the easier on any para'd marine, because you can tell which way he is going and thus how to get round him), still allows you to move exceptionally fast with no audio queue, and at second hive you're talking about fades with whatever second hive upgrade they need. I state the obvious because silence is still viable UP TO ENDGAME. At endgame when marines are lamed into their last stand, silence is pretty pointless. As long as marines are mobile, silence has use.
Celerity makes noise. I shouldnt have to tell you this, but there it is. Celerity makes you very very fast but also very very noisy, which means marines don't even NEED MT because they can hear you 3 corridors away. Silence makes you pretty fast, and marines have no clue. Furthermore at second hive you have the silenced leaping skulk, which laughs at the lagging MT blip behind it, as myself and others have mentioned.
You don't seem to realise the power of silence. Speed is nice but its not that hot in tight spots. As a skulk, you expect to die. Silence allows you to do a decent bit of damage before getting hamburgered. Celerity is too noisy to allow any sort of surprise. Stop assuming this is all about the fade and wake up to the other creatures. I cited several examples, which you seem to have missed. Skulks/Fades benefit most because they can move faster than the MT blip, and they can easily flank marines before the marines know whats happened. Gorges have spit, which tracks a straight line back to their sniper hole, and lerks have a big spore cloud which again can be tracked back to their hidey hole. Gorges can still make use of silence for sneaky building, tho I'd wager adrenaline is the better bet for both classes. Since the vast bulk of offensive classes at early-mid game are going to be Fades and Skulks, it makes blindingly obvious sense to focus on them. Why worry about a noncombatant unit or a unit which only appears at endgame? SURPRISE is what its all about. Skulks really dont "need" celerity, neither do fades, as they can move very fast without it.
MT won't counter silence unless you happen to be looking at the skulk. Since you WILL NOT HEAR THE SKULK you're not going to be turning around to check your rear, or over your head, or in that little vent over there. You may see a little blip a few rooms away, but when you turn away from it the skulk/fade can have closed the distance by the time you look back. Remember, the aliens still hear you, and they just have to wait till they hear the clump clump clump of marines walking away.
A gorge is a noncombat class. If he takes celerity, more fool him. Adren healspam is great at first hive, and adren bilebomb is devastating at two hives. A wigglewalking gorge can outpace marines, so why waste your upgrade on celerity?
A skulk already moves very very very fast, and if you add in bhopping, strafing, and wiggling then you don't really need celerity so much. If there's more than 2 marines then you're likely going to die, so why bother with noisy celerity when silence almost guarantees you one kill, and then you can loop around for more flanking?
Celerity hit and runs are flawed once you lose the element of surprise. The chance of you surviving becomes steadily smaller the longer you spend in contact with marines who know your flight path.
Further, I've seen (and been) a silenced skulk take out a marine base. Noone hears it enter, it takes out the base guard, hops the mines, then takes out the structures. Two silenced skulks can get into a base, nail the obs, then spend the rest of the time laughing at any marine trying to spot them.
Taking celerity "for scouting" is hilarious. Bhop moves you just as well, and means you can take SILENCE, which is much more helpful for quietly para'ing marines. Also allows you to quietly take out any marine scout on his own. Its pretty pointless for travelling the map because MC lets you warp between hives, so you're never too far to bhop from the enemy.
As a silence fade I have ripped through marines. Silence and focus = one guaranteed hit and likely kill, and even without focus you can sneak in 2-3 swipes before the marines have time to bring their guns up. As a silence cara fade I can ambush sg rines or pick teams off one by one. Celerity is great for dodging, but since I only intend to blink in, do some damage, and blink out, I don't really need celerity at all. Again, blink makes celerity rather second rate, especially when silence offers a considerable edge on any marines who aren't looking at you.
Celerity and cara? Celerity focus? Far too noisy, every marine will hear you coming, and even if you flee to regenerate or meta yourself, the rines will hear the sloosh sloosh as you hide in the vent. A grenade later and its byebye alien.
As I previously stated several times now, a lerk is a fool to take celer or silence because for one he can't hide where his spores come from, and for two the lerk is a very fast flyer. Might be fun to take silence if you're a biting combat lerk, but thats a waste of your support abilities. Adren so much better.
Celerity is a pretty pointless choice at 1 hive. Maybe with Regen or Cara you can go for a real hit and run alien, but personally I prefer an ambush smack match. Silence and cara are viable all the way through to endgame, you can take a lot of damage and still come out smiling.
MT does NOT pinpoint the exact location of an alien. If you pay attention, MT has a tendency to lag behind. Aliens who are wise to this can alter their angle as they ENTER a room, meaning any marine firing at them will be hitting empty air. Once you PASS the marines, you can effectively vanish. Their MT means that have to be looking at you. Celerity skulks will get into a room ok, but then get blocked and mangled by marines. A silence skulk can disappear in a room of crowded rines, or force them to angle their guns at the roof/vents/etc... which means they're no longer covering the doorway.
My argument IS true. Play any game, its obvious to see the MT lagging a little. MT is a good indicator of something coming, but its not going to give you aimbot skills. Once its actually IN the room, and running around you, you need to be LISTENING for it behind you. Or, of course, you can do little 360 donuts and hope you pick it up on MT. Most people end up using MT as a guide to incoming attacks, but still rely on hearing to help them line up a shot. Silence allows you to sneak up behind someone... something which you CANNOT do with Celerity. Versus MT, celerity is hopeless. Marine sees you coming, hears you coming, lines you up, BAM. With silence you've an even chance of getting right behind the rine and killing him before he knows it. Its a small edge, but enough to tip the scale in favour of silence.
You CAN dodge MT with speed, and any claim to the contrary is effectively an utter lie. Speed = lagging sprites and lagging aim, which means you can make it INTO an area. Silence will allow you to get back out.
Celerity plus X offers few combos of any worth. Once HMGs, shotties, and upgraded armour start appearing, a marine can block a celer skulk and put several rounds into it. At least with silence you've a chance of getting one solid bite in, and a better than average chance of getting a second or third.
The devs have to factor in player skill to their upgrades. Boosting silence would make life insanely hard on marines. Skilled silence players are nasty pieces of work. If some people cant use silence, well thats unfortuante. Its the same with bhopping. Its been factored into game balance. If you can't bhop, then thats unfortunate, but alien speed isnt going to be boosted because it would make bhoppers almost impossible to counter.
Celerity bhop and bite is a joke.
The comm chair does NOT always play "your base is under attack". Second, in order to find out WHAT is under attack, you'll have to look on the map. Third, you'll have to tell the marines that the biting is happening to X structure from X side. Fourth, all those marines will have more pressing concerns with fades, onos, whatever. Fifth, I've personally done it, and I suck, so I know for a fact it works and works well. Sixth, in order to spot a silenced skulk attacking a certain structure, the comm will have to take time away from watching his marines. So every way you slice it, the aliens come away better off. All the more so if the comm jumps out. A silence skulk can take a comm if he's close enough, a celerity skulk cant do much fancy footwork if he's in an enclosed space. Lets not forget most MS are virtual bonsai bases.
Any speed related celerity boost is negated by bhop and wallstrafing. Once second hive arrives, leap nullifies it. Fades have blink from the get go, so they can cheerfully ignore celerity. Adren is awesome for support classes, but skulks really shouldnt be bitespamming that much, and a fade shouldn't be swiping like a newb on speed. Adren is nice for fancy fade blink antics, but hardly essential.
For the actual act of killing marines, silence comes off the best. Marines cant listen for you, so they have to rely on actually seeing you, and its very easy to find a way to avoid a marine's gaze.
Back to silly semantics -
Lerk and gorge are support classes. Silence is dumb because you can track their projectiles. Celerity is dumb because you're not running around much as gorge, and a lerk can fly fast as is. Adren is the best upgrade on balance. HOWEVER, silence lerks can do that crazy "Winged Teeth" thing with impunity, and a silenced cloaked gorge under an SC can build up insane amounts of lame without being spotted. Again, I speak from experience, both my own and others.
Only at ENDGAME does silence lose its usefulness, and at that point celerity is STILL pointless - you should be packing adren and spamming primal scream, etc.
A marine looking up at a skulk has just sacrificed his range of vision in order to snare one silenced skulk on the roof. And thats assuming his gamma is high enough to spot it, or its hiding in plain sight. Any marine spending his time staring at the roof is going to be ripped apart by the bulk of people on the ground. GFG. Spec any match, and most of the time you'll see guns pointed horizontally. For the 1 or 2 times you're hiding in the open above a door, you still have 8 times you sneaked behind 2 marines and got a solid kill plus crippling damage to the other.
You think MT defeats silence, you are wrong. MT tries to even the odds. But MT means you have to be looking at the alien. With celerity, you're making more noise than any other upgrade, the marines won't need MT because you'll be making enough noise to wake the dead. At least with adren you can have a bit of use against structures or spam para-ing the entire team. Celerity means you will NEVER sneak up on a marine who has a set of functional ears. Silence at the very least gives you a chance at sneaking up on marines. Learn the finer points of silence and it'll all make sense.
Celerity is tolerable if you cant bhop/strafe/wiggle, or if you lack any sort of skill at flanking. If you can listen to marines and know how many there are, and what direction they're heading, then you will reap huge benefits from using silence. Celerity good for rambo skulk xeno missiles, dirt poor at anything else the rest of the time.
Also celerity is an awesome upgrade, even if you can bunnyhop. If I am ever in doubt I will always go celerity. True the maximum Bhop speed isn't that much higher then any normal speed skulk, but it helps ALOT with circlestrafing and tracking, both of which can not be done while Bhopping. Bhop into the marine like normal, and as soon as you hit him shoot up his player hull and run down the wall behind his back, then circle strafe around to his front again. If dones successfully you have just given yourself about 4 bites worth of time exposed to the marine and even an HMG won't be hitting you much.
If you think a lerk without celerity is anywhere near as useful as one with you are kidding yourself. With celerity the thing becomes invincible to all but extreamly well placed shotgun shots and concentrated HMG fire. When I lerk with celerity I can generally fly into a room full of LMGs, bite one of them to death, and fly out, only taking any damage on the bite phase. You start wheeling the mouse around and flapping full speed with celerity and the thing just whizzes around almost compleatly unhittable. The only lerk upgrade that is even worth mentioning in comparison is adreneline. Which is much better for spore lerks, but forces them into a much less offecive possition, as the only thing they will have an easy time killing is rambo LMGs.
if you break my silence upgrade, i will BREAK your FACE.
personally, nothing beats floating in as a silence fade, and killing that lone marine BEFORE HE EVEN TURNS AROUND. nothing. i swear that's the only reason i play this game.
What? Celerity is the best Fade MC upgrade.
Silence is pretty good on Skulks though so I disagree with the OP.
What? Celerity is the best Fade MC upgrade.
Silence is pretty good on Skulks though so I disagree with the OP. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Celerity is a must for fades.
Best is if you let him pass and catch him from behind.
and silence really is super good.
Maybe it's just me, but sometimes, I like going to a good spot in vents and dropping a chamber in there to help in the field. The free upgrades that the skulks instantly get may be of some use as well. I'm not going to argue on this part any further.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You never played NS seriously... right? it is rare for me to do that but for this i say : LOL.
I'm talking about all the sound not only skulk chomping RT. There are a lot of thing a commander can hear. In fact this was enough a problem to make devs disable sound at the begining of the game for the commander player.
Pls enter the CC and learn how it is inside. And you gonna see a lot of new and weird things. Frankly this is not ironic. You gonna see so much unbelivable things... 5HAs killed in the hive etc... This will makes you think different.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe, it's just me, but I always know what is being attacked due to the "JOR BASED ARE BEING SMACKED" sound. If you have problems with it, well, just live with it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You did in the first page...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I only argued with your statement saying MC has more benefits than the other chambers. Regardless, it's not relevant to the thread, so again, let's drop this.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So what? Parasite the RT, your buddies with adrenaline will come... it's about teamwork. You must understand that silence is not a tool for chomping RT. It is an ambush tool. And after all you chomp RT with DC to.
NS is about teamplay not public style. I'm talking about the common public style. No really teamplay or fair play. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have already said it's only useful in situations in ambushes. Just because you don't have adrenaline doesn't mean you can't help chomp RTs. Teamplay versus public style? I just don't understand what you are trying to say.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Obviously you would be the first one who win a game by standing still... impressive...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Standing still for ambushes.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Silence did not changed since the begining. MC is the most stable chamber in the game. So it just mean that a lot of vet know silence better than you do. You should take it as an experienced advice.
Just play it and one day you'll unlock the divine silent temple. But just play it. It may be hard at the beginning, but don't quit. Silence is really powered.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your opinion on MC is your opinion. Some people prefer recon with sensory or the extra armor with defense. Again, silence IS formidable in the early game, no doubt, but MT diminishes it's effectiveness significantly later on. And I would like to see this silent temple. ^_^
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If you build 3 mcs asap and then all go to silence and move in teams, marine team will really have hard time because usually they rely on that they can hear closing aliens. If they cant hear you, they don't expect you because they are only looking for camping aliens. And because it only takes 2 bites to kill armor 0 marine, whole team will be easily butchered. Many players don't even notice when their fellow marines are killed if they dont directly see it.
Silence is brutal if used right from start. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yea, silence is useful in ambushes in the early game, but it doesn't work as well when marines use teamwork by sticking together, which is a good thing. That doesn't change the fact MT weakens it later on.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Just had to say: Thats gotta be the most effed up thing in this game. I'll play comm and won't get that message till the ENTIRE area is down around there. Whats up with that? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you bothered to read one of my insanely long posts, you might have found where I stated that I used that as an example of how silence is only useful when ambushing, while adrenaline and celerity are more flexible and useful in more situations.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Except you're not repeating the same argument.
The argument you started out with was "Cloaking is better."
Somewhere along the way, you've changed that to "Celerity is better."
Very different arguments.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, I had 1 argument which was silence is weak. However, I did present 4 different examples, so you are partially correct.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Silence and Celerity are very evenly matched depending on your playstyle and the playstyle of the opponents.
I feel you are discounting how much marines target using sound when they are in battle with an alien. This is the advantage silence gives that none of the other upgrades can match.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
When you see the alien, silence becomes useless, period. Silence is only useful when you ambush AND get the kill. You will die before you get kills in a group of marines.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I say teamwork does more damage to cloaking than silence because of this fact. Your first bite when you have cloaking reveals you not only to the marine you've attacked, but also to all other marines in the room. They tend to react very quickly to the skulk bite sound - nearly as quickly as they do to the gorge burble. With silence, marines often don't pick up on what's going on until you've gotten the second bite in and a guy falls. This immediately improves your odds. With celerity, you may get that first bite in, but then you are in a fight for survival. True, you have better odds than the cloaker of surviving, but I'm not sure you have better odds than the silenced skulk.. especially if he got the early advantage in getting a man down before they were aware.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now you argue with silence vs cloak and bring in celerity. So who's the one changing arguments again? Anyway, even as you state a bite sound can be a useful hint of danger, I also believe when someone in your group shoots something, the rest of the group is also alerted. I'm not arguing silence is weak EARLY game, I'm saying later on, you can't get those 2 bites in with armor ups and you can spot the silent skulk BEFORE you enter the room, and then silence becomes weak. Silence is just a slight buff to ambushing, which you could already do without the upgrade.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The cloaker must be like the spider. Set the trap and wait for the prey to come very close.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can move while being cloaked. And you can come close enough to actually watch the way the marine is facing and choose actions from there. With MT, you will also have to stay still, so I think it applies to both upgrades.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The silenced must be like the jaguar. Stalk the prey while remaining hidden, then pounce when it's unexpected.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can wait for the marine to come close enough to you and bite his back when you are cloaked as well. With cloaking, you can adjust to an incoming marine because you can see him BEFORE he becomes close enough to grab you. With silence, you will have to wait for him to enter the room, before you start making actions. You can see the marine from plain view when cloaked, while you must hide in careful areas when silent. Ultimately, cloaking allows you to plan actions better since spotting a marine is much easier.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The celeritied must be like the cheetah. Move in quickly to make the kill and then escape.
Once in the same room with the marines, MT means nothing.
MT is only a hindrance to setting up an ambush. Not in the battle thereafter. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Silence is destroyed once a marine sees you. With this said, silence only works behind a marine. With cloaking, you can change your position so you are behind the marine. With silence, you must wait for the marine to look the other way before pouncing on him. Like I said above, cloaking gives you more control on the ambush, rather than hoping for the marine to make the right moves. And, you are also going to have to hope the marine did not see you moving to an ambush spot with MT, BEFORE he enters the room.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->By the time marines are running around with MT and lots of obs, aliens have a second hive up. Silence STILL allows sneak attacks (all the easier on any para'd marine, because you can tell which way he is going and thus how to get round him), still allows you to move exceptionally fast with no audio queue, and at second hive you're talking about fades with whatever second hive upgrade they need. I state the obvious because silence is still viable UP TO ENDGAME. At endgame when marines are lamed into their last stand, silence is pretty pointless. As long as marines are mobile, silence has use.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can tell which way he may be going, BUT you can't tell which way he is facing. Trust me, these are 2 different things, that is vital to a successful silent ambush.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Celerity makes noise. I shouldnt have to tell you this, but there it is. Celerity makes you very very fast but also very very noisy, which means marines don't even NEED MT because they can hear you 3 corridors away. Silence makes you pretty fast, and marines have no clue. Furthermore at second hive you have the silenced leaping skulk, which laughs at the lagging MT blip behind it, as myself and others have mentioned.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Silence does NOT beef speed in anyway, so stop using that phrase. If MT lags a silence skulk, imagine the lag when it's on a faster, celerity skulk. Again, if the marine sees you incoming, it won't matter if you are silent or not. Silence is only advantageous in an ambush when you GET the kill, so leaping skulks would be better off with celerity.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->MT won't counter silence unless you happen to be looking at the skulk. Since you WILL NOT HEAR THE SKULK you're not going to be turning around to check your rear, or over your head, or in that little vent over there. You may see a little blip a few rooms away, but when you turn away from it the skulk/fade can have closed the distance by the time you look back. Remember, the aliens still hear you, and they just have to wait till they hear the clump clump clump of marines walking away.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your first statement does not make sense. How does MT counter silence in a room with a skulk, when blues circles only show when THEY ARE BEHIND A WALL. The clump clump of marines make silence even more laughable. Silence works best on a 1 on 1 situation, because once you are spotted, the advantage is lost. So when you are spotted by multiple marines, silence was only useful in hitting the first marine, from there, the benefits end. Celerity however, will make it harder for the marines to aim on you, and lets you escape quicker.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->A gorge is a noncombat class. If he takes celerity, more fool him. Adren healspam is great at first hive, and adren bilebomb is devastating at two hives. A wigglewalking gorge can outpace marines, so why waste your upgrade on celerity?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because of wigglewalking marines.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->A skulk already moves very very very fast, and if you add in bhopping, strafing, and wiggling then you don't really need celerity so much. If there's more than 2 marines then you're likely going to die, so why bother with noisy celerity when silence almost guarantees you one kill, and then you can loop around for more flanking?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because it pushes those advantageous even further. In a situation with 2 marines, silence will only be useful for one of them IF you get a kill, celerity however, is still useful on both.
Celerity hit and runs are flawed once you lose the element of surprise. The chance of you surviving becomes steadily smaller the longer you spend in contact with marines who know your flight path.
Celerity was never meant to use surprise. Its main purpose is that you get from point A to B faster. Silence is even worse in hit and run situations.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->personally, nothing beats floating in as a silence fade, and killing that lone marine BEFORE HE EVEN TURNS AROUND. nothing. i swear that's the only reason i play this game. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your going to have to assume the direction the marine faces when you enter the room. If the marine sees even a trace of you, the element of surprise is over. And who says you can't do the same job just as well or even better against a lone marine with celerity?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Silence is pretty good on Skulks though so I disagree with the OP. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As I said before, silence is viable early game, but once upgrades are researched, silence becomes absolutely nerfed compared to celerity or adrenaline. Silence is useless when marines spot you. That's why straight frontal assaults are not suited for it. MT however pinpoints your exact location, so at best, you might as well stand still and jump down on the marine. The difference between a silent ambush and a non silent one is when your drop and come close enough to bite the marine. I disagree that this makes silence worth using because these sort of situations don't happen all the time, are easily countered when marines move in packs, and the sound played when dropping and walking won't be significant if you are already close enough behind the marine.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->even if silence was a week skill (which it isn't) the MC is still the best first hive chamber by far. no matter what anyone says, you get adren celerity and silence... 3 totally awesome skills. DC's only benifit high lifeforms and Sens mostly helps small lifeforms (yes SOF is handy for everyone but when your an onos does it really matter if you get surprised by a lone marine?) but MC is good for everyone, Celerity skulks are better hunters and ambushes. Silent strikes are funny as heck. and Adren lerks are awesome... every lifeform can get WAY more out of your MC then any other chamber... MC first FTW...
and silence really is super good. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Noone said MC was bad, so I don't see why you bothered to add your opinion on it. We aren't just comparing chamber upgrades to other chamber, but also the upgrades on a single chamber versus its 2 other siblings. I like MC, don't get me wrong, but we are pinpointing silence, not the entire chamber.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->the point of silence is also to help leap-bites from the back, if you leap bite with cele, the rine will hear you and turn around, with silence the marine will turn around after the first or second bite <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Even if you have silence, you will have to assume which direction he is facing before you engage him. Not only that, but you also have to assume that he is by himself, as it is very likely for the skulk to be killed by the SECOND marine in the group. Thirdly, to see a marines back means that you have to wait for him to pass you, since once you are spotted, silence is useless. Fourthly, it's only going to be useful if you GET the kill. If you ambush, fail and retreat, you can do that with adrenaline or celerity.
Sure silence may be better in this situation, but in all others, celerity is much better. You have to focus on other scenarios, not just a minority.
What? Celerity is the best Fade MC upgrade.
Silence is pretty good on Skulks though so I disagree with the OP. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lies, adren is the #1 Fade upgrade.
As well as silence/redem skulks are really frustrating to play against.
This is only true if you're dealing with marines with perfect tracking.
This is what I, and others, keep saying, and what you keep totally ignoring. Many marines track their target in a fire-fight to a great extent by the sound it makes as it runs around.
Do you deny this is the case?
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ya. Once a skulk starts bunny hopping down a hall at you hearing isn't that important...
So to review:
I really do have to laugh at people a little that say MT can be confusing. It's really only confusing if you only rely on the blue blips. Yes, they don't update fluidly as to let you know where the alien is PRECISELY, but if you hold down your map button for a moment, I'm pretty certain that those red blips move quite smoothly, providing you with a wealth of information.
Edit: If you say that you play only by sound, you have deemed yourself inflexible. I play by both sound and sight (MT), but once MT is researched, I play primarily through planning and anticipation by watching my Big Map while on the move. I am able to see where the aliens are at all times and if I see an alien suddenly stop in the room I am heading to, I know now that I can sneak up on that alien and reverse their intended ambush. I can communicate to my squad to be quiet as well. Remember, we're talking about Silence primarily. So, the alien can be as quiet as it wants, but I still know where he is and I'll know if he changes positions.
MT eliminates the purpose of silence, which is, as I understand, to be able to move across the map at top speed and avoid detection. As well as ambush marines without them being able to easily-detect you. Armor still makes noise when damaged.. Silence also allows you to actively confuse a group of Marines if you run past them, parasite them, and then run away and ambush them shortly thereafter.
Silence is powerful in the early game. To be overly technical, MT doesn't destroy silence, but you'll have to be needlessly patient and have to have an extensive understanding of Marine strategy for it to be effective. So, it does put the learning curve for silence up far higher since you're now relying directly upon ambushes.
Then again, you'll appear on the enemy's minimap if you attack them from behind anyway, so there's your point. Silence still delays the reaction time if you use patient ambush tactics, but then again, when the marines have MT, they'll probably be moving with more confidence, which means you'll probably have to change your ambush position many times in order to stave off Marine Territory expansion. Since I'm sure you don't wish to move so slowly MT doesn't detect you to get across the map, I can again see your point that Silence has been greatly nerfed by MT.
So, my suggestion borrows from someone else's suggestion. I believe they said that Observatories should provide reliable MT tracking to Marines nearby Observatories. So, if you were out in the field, your MT would be less-reliable. They said that the blips should update in intervals (On your map, not on screen since the blue reticles already blip in intervals.) when you are away from an Obs. However, that wouldn't really solve the problem of MT nullifying Silence.
Then again, would it? On your minimap, if you're quick, you would be able to bite a marine in the back three times in an ambush before you appeared on their minimap, assuming the marine is out in the field.
So, we come back to tweaking the idea of making MT unreliable when away from an Obs.
Or a new-ish proposition. Maybe Motion Tracking should come in three upgrades, each one increasing its relability, range, whether or not being within an Obs' sensor range will give you 100% reliability or not.
Due to my inexperience with resource management, I can't really provide the-most-reliable specifics (Ex: MT1 Cost X Resources MT2 Cost X Resources..), but since I've been playing NS for a few years, I have the prerequisie experience to talk about the gameplay to an extent, but feel free to point out for me things that would change in game mechanics due to things like: Motion tracking that doesn't update so smoothly.
Ok, now for a radical suggestion since I believe that Silence is a strong upgrade, but I also believe that it shouldn't be so absolutely nerfed by Motion Tracking.
Note: This is an extremely unscientific suggestion. I'm pretty certain that it is too-radical a suggestion to work in gameplay and make MT rushes useless or investing in MT too-risky. But here goes.
Level 1 Motion Tracking(15 res / 1 minute reserach): Aliens with Silence/Cloak Upgrade aren't detected until they come within minimap range. Blips do not display on the Big Map unless aliens come within Obs range for marines in-field. Being near an Obs provides marines with LV2 MT. Blue Circles update slower than normal for in-field marines.
Commander can see Big Map blips, but they update as fast as blue circles.
Level 2 MT(25 res / 2 minute research): Aliens w/ Silence/Cloak are now detected as if they were normal aliens. Being near an Obs provides Normal MT Reliability. Map updates in the field update as quickly as blue circles update. B.C. Update Rate is now normal.
Commander's Big Map updates smoothly.
Lv 3 MT(35 res / 3 minute research): MT as it is now. Being near an Observatory will provide smooth Blue Circle blips if aliens are 50 units outside of Uncloak range (only if they move quickly).
Commander gains no benefit.
Or
Provide Motion Tracking as a hand-held upgrade with Normal MT benefits. Research Cost: 30 Res 3 minutes. Commander deploys the upgrade at a cost of 8 res each. Marines pick up MT. Marines Die. Comm drops new MT packs. Gives the marine the visual as having a night-vision attachment instead of their visor.
I appologize that my post isn't well constructed. I'm just spouting off thought as it comes to me. Hopefully I stayed on-topic longer than most of the people I've seen post.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agreed with your post mostly Thor, up until I read this.
Silence is <b>the</b> most scary upgrade for a PCW/Clan level player to deal with, as you learn to rely on sound so much. (Even after MT, often) Sound with headphones allows you to basically have a free short-range MT at all times, and has resulted in more 'h4x' accusations than anything else.
Silence removes one of the founding tenets to getting the drop on enemy players, an advantage that often makes the difference in who dies. Celerity is good for all lifeforms, don't get me wrong, but a smattering of Silence users can make all the difference a lot of the time, particularily if they move together.
- Shockwave
I remember when silence just silenced the sound of the bite, the aliens still made other noise. Silence has been beefed up insanely, it's still lethal when used correctly. Most competitive players use sound very effectively, and when you remove with silence it gives you an advantage, it's just up to you to use that advantage to the fullest.
And as the origanal post stated, silence needs a buff to be effective by itself. IMHO silencing completely the attack/hit sounds could be the answer, but the "structure under attack" alert should stay.
Heck, why not I say, beta test it and we'll se some results instead of talking about it!
Silence is fine as it is. The only conceivable change I could see is reducing the distance that the "structure hit" sound plays. That is, a Skulk's Bite sound can be heard from ~600 units (the actual distance doesn't matter for this example) but the Bite-Hit (the only thing you hear when you attack with Silence) sound can only be heard from ~450 units.
See how that works?
It wouldn't be balanced if a commander had to constantly trigger it.
Marins woudn't say 'please'. We (commanders) would hear: (texan accent) Scaaaaan... Motiooooon... k... let'ssss goooo...
I think of another proposal but i have to wait until '3.0 suggestions' is 'open'.
Then again, I mainly play lerk with celerity now, thats why im so zealous about celerity being good. The biting missile is the ultimate assasin and jp hunter. ^_^
I did cover the flying teeth in my posts, but tbh they're a rarity.
also, shocks statement about sound with headphones is true, its basically early MT for skulks. if im skulking, i know what upgrade i always take. silence.
I did cover the flying teeth in my posts, but tbh they're a rarity. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
celerity lerks (and fades) are not the exception but exactly the rule, especially if you get mc's first (which is pretty common).
If that's all you're doing when you attack marines, perhaps you should just get cloak?