Terri Schiavo

Depot · March 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BathroomMonkey @ Mar 24 2005, 12:51 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Depot @ Mar 24 2005, 04:47 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BathroomMonkey @ Mar 24 2005, 12:31 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Depot @ Mar 24 2005, 04:26 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Apos @ Mar 24 2005, 12:12 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Even if she was MCS, there is little reason to think her wishes would be different, so the point would be moot. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
A minimally conscious state differs significantly from a persistent vegetative state. It's hardly a moot point. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
You're referring, of course, to <a href='http://mediamatters.org/items/200503220002' target='_blank'>this guy?</a> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
No that's not him. This doctor is a renowned neurologist at the Mayo Clinic in Jacksonville. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Presumably he has a name?</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
<a href='http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewCulture.asp?Page=%5CCulture%5Carchive%5C200503%5CCUL20050323d.html' target='_blank'>Neurologist Suggests Schiavo May Have Been Misdiagnosed</a> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' />

groKKingmImI · March 2005

<a href='http://wireservice.wired.com/wired/story.asp?section=Breaking&storyId=1008566&tw=wn_wire_story' target='_blank'>http://wireservice.wired.com/wired/story.a...w=wn_wire_story</a>

I bet some of you really wonder why a few of us get so boiled up over these retarded threads. Read above, please.

BathroomMonkey · March 2005

Thanks for the link-- my apologies; but I've heard a lot about the other guy as of late. I'll have to look into this bit.

Edit: CNSNews.com is a
Division of the Media
Research Center
1-877-CNS-News

Spidey Sense: Tingling.

However, my offer on the bet still stands (first taker only, though, folks-- and if the bet is prohibitively expensive, we can negotiate <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' />).

Google gives me one decent hit on 'Schiavo' and 'Cheshire' and 'Mayo', and it's <a href='http://www.family.org/physmag/issues/a0029588.cfm' target='_blank'>this</a>:
</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Bill Cheshire, a neurologist with the Mayo Clinic in Jacksonville, Fla., and a fellow at the Center for Bioethics and Human Dignity, has seen this kind of looseness applied to potential PVS cases firsthand.

“I’m not sure the diagnosis is used consistently,” he told Physician. “I am sometimes asked if a patient is in PVS, but it’s only been a few days. By definition, you have to wait at least a month.”
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

<b>Please</b> tell me this is not remotely related to the 'misdiagnosis'.

<a href='http://www.libertypost.org/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=87033' target='_blank'>Further:</a>
</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Should two such "chimera mice" mate, it could lead to the nightmarish scenario of a human embryo trapped in a mouse's womb. <b>William Cheshire, a neurology professor from the Mayo Clinic in Florida and a Christian activist</b>, has called for a ban on any research that destroys a human embryo to create a new organism. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Emphasis and elevated skepticism mine.

That_Annoying_Kid · March 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AllUrHiveRblong2us @ Mar 23 2005, 03:16 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Why does this topic exist? It's none of our business, it's none of anyone's business except for the people involved. Our opinions can only be half-informed at best and completely assumed at worst. And obviously this topic was destined to get off track in religious squibbling from the first post.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
^^

check out some bias </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Terri Schiavo may well die. No good will come of it. Those who are half in love with death will only become more red-fanged and ravenous.

And those who are still learning--our children--oh, what terrible lessons they're learning. What terrible stories are shaping them. They're witnessing the Schiavo drama on television and hearing it on radio. They are seeing a society--their society, their people--on the verge of famously accepting, even embracing, the idea that a damaged life is a throwaway life.

Our children have been reared in the age of abortion, and are coming of age in a time when seemingly respectable people are enthusiastic for euthanasia. It cannot be good for our children, and the world they will make, that they are given this new lesson that human life is not precious, not touched by the divine, not of infinite value. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

I've seen way to many one line posts lately.

But I think that since she has no chance of recovery, and no higher functions...

Yash · March 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SkulkBait @ Mar 22 2005, 07:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>You know what? **** God. **** him and all his "You don't get to choose how to die" ****. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
I don't know how this got past everyone, and I REALLY don't know how this got past Grendel, but this is unacceptable. This is coming from the same person who said he will take offense if someone says "God Bless you".

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Unless a majroity of you still can't spit out the bitter aftertaste of AvengerX's escapades, I think it's safe to say that "God bless you" can now be officially considered an insult on this forum.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I would take it as such, yes. I don't know about others.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

That first comment is a personal attack against christians. If nothing is done about it, then I officially believe that the disscussion forum is finished, and that the mods are playing favorites.

SkulkBait · March 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Yash @ Mar 24 2005, 12:11 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SkulkBait @ Mar 22 2005, 07:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>You know what? **** God. **** him and all his "You don't get to choose how to die" ****. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
I don't know how this got past everyone, and I REALLY don't know how this got past Grendel, but this is unacceptable. This is coming from the same person who said he will take offense if someone says "God Bless you".
 </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
Sigh. Literacy is such a rare quality these days. If you read what I responded to, you'll see that I said that because I was offended by a similar statement!

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Unless a majroity of you still can't spit out the bitter aftertaste of AvengerX's escapades, I think it's safe to say that "God bless you" can now be officially considered an insult on this forum.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I would take it as such, yes. I don't know about others.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

That first comment is a personal attack against christians. If nothing is done about it, then I officially believe that the disscussion forum is finished, and that the mods are playing favorites.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Its not an attack against christians, it is me offering my opinion of God. I only did so because someone else brought up God in the first place and his opinion of what God's opinion would be on the matter at hand.

groKKingmImI · March 2005

GOD HATES MORONS WHO SPEND MORE TIME DISCUSSING IRRELEVANT **** AND DIVERTING THE NATIONAL DIALOGUE AWAY FROM IMPORTANT THINGS, LIKE TSUNAMI AID AND WARS.

i like tacos

(ps looking forward to my discussion ban)

Yash · March 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SkulkBait @ Mar 24 2005, 12:16 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Sigh. Literacy is such a rare quality these days. If you read what I responded to, you'll see that I said that because I was offended by a similar statement!

</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
I'm offended by you swearing at God, but does that give me the right to say "**** Skulkbait"?

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Its not an attack against christians, it is me offering my opinion of God. I only did so because someone else brought up God in the first place and his opinion of what God's opinion would be on the matter at hand.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Are you serious? That's a blatant verbal attack!
Forget this, I'm just going to report what you said.
Arguing with you is like trying to convince a rock that it's an animal.

SkulkBait · March 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Yash @ Mar 24 2005, 12:21 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SkulkBait @ Mar 24 2005, 12:16 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Sigh. Literacy is such a rare quality these days. If you read what I responded to, you'll see that I said that because I was offended by a similar statement!

</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
I'm offended by you swearing at God, but does that give me the right to say "**** Skulkbait?"
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Why not? Because its a personal attack? Tell you what, if God was offended by my remark then he can PM the mods about it.

Honestly, we can't go around and say you can't say bad things about <i>anybody</i>, that'd be rediculous. Think of all the Bush and Kerry bashers who would be banned then?

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Its not an attack against christians, it is me offering my opinion of God. I only did so because someone else brought up God in the first place and his opinion of what God's opinion would be on the matter at hand.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Are you serious? That's a blatant verbal attack!
Forget this, I'm just going to report what you said.
Arguing with you is like trying to convince a rock that it's an animal.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Go ahead, be my guest. I've said plenty worse that probabaly should have got me banned, that statement isn't even close.

Yash · March 2005

Reported.
I'm still amazed at how your comment got past Grendel, but whatever.

SkulkBait · March 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Yash @ Mar 24 2005, 12:26 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Reported.
I'm still amazed at how your comment got past Grendel, but whatever. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
I'm amazed you continue to believe that anybody cares, most especially me. Stop cluttering up the topic.

Apos · March 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Depot @ Mar 23 2005, 11:26 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>A minimally conscious state differs significantly from a persistent vegetative state. It's hardly a moot point.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
No, legally, it's still a moot point. Terri did not wish to live like that regardless of minimal consciousness or not. Thousands of people with more than minimal brain damaged consciousness by their own wishes go off life support to pass away every year.

Regardless, after reviewing this new guy's testimony, I can't see that he really brings any new evidence to the table. These are the same exact arguments that other doctors and investigators and court rulings have been putting holes in for years. If you want to believe that someone with PVS is really "in there" you can very easily convince yourself. If you don't believe me, listen to the audio I posted.

Apos · March 2005

The best thing to do would be to report the post and wait for the mods to act. Posting about it only serves to keep the acrimony going. For the record, I think it's very easy for things to slip by in long threads like these. Personally, I skipped over most of the thread that wasn't directly on topic. I also wish there wasn't such acrimony between Christians and non-Christians, as I don't think disputes over that particular line of difference serve any purpose or do anyone any good.

Grendel · March 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Yash @ Mar 24 2005, 06:11 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SkulkBait @ Mar 22 2005, 07:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>You know what? **** God. **** him and all his "You don't get to choose how to die" ****. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
I don't know how this got past everyone, and I REALLY don't know how this got past Grendel, but this is unacceptable. This is coming from the same person who said he will take offense if someone says "God Bless you".
 </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
Whuh?

Is there an assumption that I'm a moderator here? Because my moderation duties are restricted to the Competitive forums.

Sandstorm · March 2005

It appears that any mention of morality or religion causes friction within the Discussion Forums. Friction causes heat. Heat ignites the forums, as they are very flammable. This results in large flames, thick clouds of smoke, horrible burns, and permanent emotional scarring. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' />

CommunistWithAGun · March 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Yash @ Mar 24 2005, 12:26 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Reported.
I'm still amazed at how your comment got past Grendel, but whatever. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
I never get tired of "christians" being vehemently judgemental

Wheeee · March 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BathroomMonkey @ Mar 24 2005, 12:01 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Should two such "chimera mice" mate, it could lead to the nightmarish scenario of a human embryo trapped in a mouse's womb. <b>William Cheshire, a neurology professor from the Mayo Clinic in Florida and a Christian activist</b>, has called for a ban on any research that destroys a human embryo to create a new organism. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Emphasis and elevated skepticism mine.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
Unm, WTH BM. I thought you were above such tactics.

Depot · March 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BathroomMonkey @ Mar 24 2005, 01:01 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Thanks for the link-- my apologies; but I've heard a lot about the other guy as of late. I'll have to look into this bit.

Edit: CNSNews.com is a
Division of the Media
Research Center
1-877-CNS-News

Spidey Sense: Tingling.

However, my offer on the bet still stands (first taker only, though, folks-- and if the bet is prohibitively expensive, we can negotiate <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' />).

Google gives me one decent hit on 'Schiavo' and 'Cheshire' and 'Mayo', and it's <a href='http://www.family.org/physmag/issues/a0029588.cfm' target='_blank'>this</a>:
</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Bill Cheshire, a neurologist with the Mayo Clinic in Jacksonville, Fla., and a fellow at the Center for Bioethics and Human Dignity, has seen this kind of looseness applied to potential PVS cases firsthand.

“I’m not sure the diagnosis is used consistently,” he told Physician. “I am sometimes asked if a patient is in PVS, but it’s only been a few days. By definition, you have to wait at least a month.”
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

<b>Please</b> tell me this is not remotely related to the 'misdiagnosis'.

<a href='http://www.libertypost.org/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=87033' target='_blank'>Further:</a>
</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Should two such "chimera mice" mate, it could lead to the nightmarish scenario of a human embryo trapped in a mouse's womb. <b>William Cheshire, a neurology professor from the Mayo Clinic in Florida and a Christian activist</b>, has called for a ban on any research that destroys a human embryo to create a new organism. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Emphasis and elevated skepticism mine.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Your feeble attempt to discredit this doctor solely on the grounds of his oppinion regarding stem cell research has nothing whatsoever to do with his medical observations of Terri Schiavo <b>OR</b> this topic.

BathroomMonkey · March 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Wheeee @ Mar 24 2005, 03:48 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BathroomMonkey @ Mar 24 2005, 12:01 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Should two such "chimera mice" mate, it could lead to the nightmarish scenario of a human embryo trapped in a mouse's womb. <b>William Cheshire, a neurology professor from the Mayo Clinic in Florida and a Christian activist</b>, has called for a ban on any research that destroys a human embryo to create a new organism. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Emphasis and elevated skepticism mine. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Unm, WTH BM. I thought you were above such tactics.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
He's an <i>activist</i>. <b>That's</b> the issue.

Do some research on him, and he's heavily involved in bioethics-- including end-of-life issues-- based on Christian philosophy.

Is it bad that he's a Christian? Of course not.

Do his stated mission and beliefs call his judgement into question? I would say yes.

BathroomMonkey · March 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Depot @ Mar 24 2005, 04:12 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BathroomMonkey @ Mar 24 2005, 01:01 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Thanks for the link-- my apologies; but I've heard a lot about the other guy as of late. I'll have to look into this bit.

Edit: CNSNews.com is a
Division of the Media
Research Center
1-877-CNS-News

Spidey Sense: Tingling.

However, my offer on the bet still stands (first taker only, though, folks-- and if the bet is prohibitively expensive, we can negotiate <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' />).

Google gives me one decent hit on 'Schiavo' and 'Cheshire' and 'Mayo', and it's <a href='http://www.family.org/physmag/issues/a0029588.cfm' target='_blank'>this</a>:
</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Bill Cheshire, a neurologist with the Mayo Clinic in Jacksonville, Fla., and a fellow at the Center for Bioethics and Human Dignity, has seen this kind of looseness applied to potential PVS cases firsthand.

“I’m not sure the diagnosis is used consistently,” he told Physician. “I am sometimes asked if a patient is in PVS, but it’s only been a few days. By definition, you have to wait at least a month.”
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

<b>Please</b> tell me this is not remotely related to the 'misdiagnosis'.

<a href='http://www.libertypost.org/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=87033' target='_blank'>Further:</a>
</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Should two such "chimera mice" mate, it could lead to the nightmarish scenario of a human embryo trapped in a mouse's womb. <b>William Cheshire, a neurology professor from the Mayo Clinic in Florida and a Christian activist</b>, has called for a ban on any research that destroys a human embryo to create a new organism. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Emphasis and elevated skepticism mine.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Your feeble attempt to discredit this doctor solely on the grounds of his oppinion regarding stem cell research has nothing whatsoever to do with his medical observations of Terri Schiavo <b>OR</b> this topic. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Eh, wrong on all counts.

See above.

By the way, have you even <b>read</b> his observations? Aside from a few remarks in that article, there's no reference to what he actually <i>observed</i>. Google comes up blank as well.

I can't discredit what I haven't read, but I <b>can</b> call his sincerity into question. Can you really wholeheartedly <b>endorse</b> what you haven't read?

As they say, he's got a dog in this fight. Would you expect impartiallity from Dr. Kevorkian?

othell · March 2005

First, I would just like to reveal that BM is mine and Grendel's love child...

Now that that has been revealed, some links for people to take a look at.

<a href='http://majikthise.typepad.com/majikthise_/2005/03/debunking_lies_.html' target='_blank'>http://majikthise.typepad.com/majikthise_/...king_lies_.html</a>
Already been posted, but a good one nonetheless.

<a href='http://www.rangelmd.com/2003/10/terri-schiavo-case.html' target='_blank'>http://www.rangelmd.com/2003/10/terri-schiavo-case.html</a>

<a href='http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/infopage.html' target='_blank'>http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/infopage.html</a>
Made by a Florida lawyer that has nothing to do with the case but has been following it. He does a good job of trying to keep his personal opinions about who's right and who's wrong out of it and only goes by the facts and the court rulings.

Its been a while since I've posted and most know me to usually seem a "bit" conservative... But I suppose there are exceptions to everything. Maybe one day I'll be redeemable.

This discussion has already been going on on a TFC forum I frequent and has actually settled down a good bit and for the most part, stayed on topic ALOT more than here ( tsk tsk ). If anyone wants to take a look at it, although I think registration is required now for the forum... Go here: <a href='http://forums.thecatacombs.net/showthread.php?t=69195' target='_blank'>http://forums.thecatacombs.net/showthread.php?t=69195</a>

That is all for now...

BathroomMonkey · March 2005

<a href='http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/24/national/24doctor.html' target='_blank'>Found this:</a>
</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>William P. Cheshire Jr., the Florida doctor cited by Gov. Jeb Bush yesterday in his announcement that he would intervene again in the case of Terri Schiavo, is a neurologist and bioethicist whose life and work have been guided by his religious beliefs.

Dr. Cheshire directs a laboratory at the Mayo Clinic branch in Jacksonville dealing with unconscious reflexes like digestion, and he is director of biotech ethics at the Center for Bioethics and Human Dignity, a nonprofit group founded by "more than a dozen leading Christian bioethicists," in the words of its Web site.

In an article last year in Physician magazine, published by the evangelical group Focus on the Family, Dr. Cheshire, 44, said doctors are too quick to declare that a patient is in a persistent vegetative state.

"I'm not sure the diagnosis is used consistently," he told Physician. "I am sometimes asked if a patient is in P.V.S., but it's only been a few days. By definition, you have to wait at least a month."

Yesterday, in an affidavit supporting a petition by the Florida Department of Children and Families in the case, Dr. Cheshire said it was more likely that Ms. Schiavo was in a "minimally conscious state."

<b>"Although Terri did not demonstrate during our 90-minute visit compelling evidence of verbalization, conscious awareness or volitional behavior," he wrote, "yet the visitor has the distinct sense of the presence of a living human being who seems at some level to be aware of some things around her."</b>

Mr. Bush called Dr. Cheshire a "renowned neurologist," but he is not widely known in the neurology or bioethics fields. Asked about him, Dr. Arthur Caplan, director of the Center for Bioethics at the University of Pennsylvania, replied, "Who?"

Dr. Cheshire, who graduated from Princeton and earned a medical degree at West Virginia University, did not return calls to the Mayo Clinic seeking comment. The clinic said in a statement that his work on the Schiavo case was not related to his work at the clinic and that the state had invited his opinion. "He observed the patient at her bedside and conducted an extensive review of her medical history but did not conduct an examination," the statement said.

Dr. Caplan said that was not good enough. "There is just no excuse for going in and making any pronouncement about the state that Terri Schiavo is in unless you're going to go in and do some form of technologically mediated scanning that would overturn what's on the record already," he said.

Dr. Ronald Cranford, a neurologist and medical ethicist at the University of Minnesota Medical School who has examined Ms. Schiavo on behalf of the Florida courts and declared her to be irredeemably brain-damaged, said, "I have no idea who this Cheshire is," and added: "He has to be bogus, a pro-life fanatic. You'll not find any credible neurologist or neurosurgeon to get involved at this point and say she's not vegetative."

He said there was no doubt that Ms. Schiavo was in a persistent vegetative state. "Her CAT scan shows massive shrinkage of the brain," he said. "Her EEG is flat - flat. There's no electrical activity coming from her brain."

Dr. Cheshire entered the field of bioethics relatively late in his career. A profile of him on the Web site of Trinity International University, where he enrolled in the master's program in bioethics in 2000, states that he was "searching for how he should integrate his faith with his medical career." After getting the degree, he became an adjunct professor of bioethics there.

A search of his publication record in the online medical library PubMed yielded articles in medical journals, with a focus on headache pain, in particular trigeminal neuralgia, a painful disorder originating in a cranial nerve called the trigeminal. None of the papers dealt with persistent vegetative states.

His papers show a fondness for puns, as in the title of a letter to The New England Journal of Medicine about a patient whose fillings caused an electrical current that made her condition worse: "The shocking tooth about trigeminal neuralgia."

He was also the author, with others from the Center for Bioethics and Human Dignity, of a paper opposing stem cell research.

The center's Web site notes that he and his wife and four children are members of the Episcopal Church of the Redeemer in Jacksonville and that he has done medical missionary work in Honduras and Siberia.

He has also written poetry, including "Exit Ramp," a poem about the movement to allow physician-assisted suicide that uses the metaphor of a highway off-ramp to warn of a different kind of slippery slope:

Such killing fast degenerates,
Despite concern for patients' best,
Into a plot that terminates
Without explicit prerequest.

</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Emphasized for what appears to be observation and conclusion based more on 'cursory examination' and 'wishful thinking' than 'hard, quantifiable science'.

It's the Times so you can take it with a grain of salt, but I think safe to say that this guy probably <i>isn't</i> going to err on the side of impartiality.

<a href='http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/southflorida/sfl-rxct24mar24,0,6305655.story' target='_blank'>More here.</a>

Grendel · March 2005

If he can't manage 4 lines of poetry, I'm not inclined to believe he can manage a comprehensive and dispassionate neurological analysis by sitting by her bed.

lolfighter · March 2005

Disconnect the life support. If God wills that she shall live, she <i>will</i> live.

Grendel · March 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (lolfighter @ Mar 24 2005, 05:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Disconnect the life support. If God wills that she shall live, she <i>will</i> live.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
The logic is unassailable.

Depot · March 2005

What I can't comprehend here is why Dr. Cheshire is being singled out when 30 other doctors have submitted affadavits concurring with him.

BathroomMonkey, we are expecting you to utilize all of your Googling expertise and disect the other doctors as well.

The latest update: <a href='http://www.news4jax.com/news/4309604/detail.html' target='_blank'>Supreme Court Refuses Schiavo Appeal</a>

BathroomMonkey · March 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Depot @ Mar 24 2005, 03:10 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <b>The latest news has a prominent Jacksonville neurologist releasing an affadavit to Jeb Bush (Governor of Florida) stating that Terry Schiavo is not in a "persistent vegetative state" as described, but rather in a "minimally conscious state". </b>

Worth noting is this neurologist based his diagnosis on observations (in person and on video) and never has examined her. There are also 30 other such affadavits filed by various doctors that seem to corelate with this one. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Well, technically, <b>you</b> singled him out, referring to him as 'prominent' and 'renowned' without evidence of, er, actual prominence or renown.

As for the other 30, I'll give google a rest and defer to Apos's thread on the subject. Though I will say that in all likelihood, a similar pattern would emerge upon closer inspection.

And I'll take the snark to imply that I've successfully dissected him.

Apos · March 2005

Because none of those other doctors give either credible or relevant testimony. Most aren't even qualified in relevant fields. Two aren't really even Drs. Only one seems to have even looked at Terri's medical records. Most seem completely ignorant of the fact that PVS is consistent with vocalization and facial movement. And almost all have simply seen a few videoclips edited by her parents and are basing their opinions on that. This leads to all sorts of nonsense, including the idea that she can be cured with acupuncture, speech therapists proscribing speech therapy (the language centers of her brain are gone, i.e. not there to "teach!"), or people talking like she's in a coma or can be cured with Alhzheimer's drugs. None of them actually confront the medical findings. None of them can suggest any serious evidence to back up their claims. The only really sane neuro specialist on the parent's side merely says that he could do an MRI if someone would like him to... and isn't willing to say more than that!

Meanwhile, neurologists who CAN cite evidence, who HAVE examined her AND her medical record, note that it is flatly ridiculous to instill false hopes in her parents by telling them that Terri can recover is is conscious. MCS patients, for instance, show decreased brain activity on EEG, but can be shown to perk up when they hear a familiar voice. But Terri shows FLAT LINE EEG, which doesn't change no matter what the stimuli. That makes the MCS diagnosis absurd on its face.

Depot · March 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Apos @ Mar 24 2005, 02:08 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Because none of those other doctors give either credible or relevant testimony. Most aren't even qualified in relevant fields.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
In YOUR oppinion, which fortunately doesn't count in the court's decisions or Jeb Bush's for that matter.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BathroomMonkey Mar 24 2005 @ 01:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
QUOTE (Depot @ Mar 24 2005, 03:10 AM)
The latest news has a prominent Jacksonville neurologist releasing an affadavit to Jeb Bush (Governor of Florida) stating that Terry Schiavo is not in a "persistent vegetative state" as described, but rather in a "minimally conscious state".

Worth noting is this neurologist based his diagnosis on observations (in person and on video) and never has examined her. There are also 30 other such affadavits filed by various doctors that seem to corelate with this one.

Well, technically, you singled him out, referring to him as 'prominent' and 'renowned' without evidence of, er, actual prominence or renown. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
When you researched Dr. Cheshire I'm certain you came across enough evidence regarding this - you simply refrained from posting it or providing both sides of the doctor. If you know of the Mayo Clinic they have some of the finest staff in the world.

BathroomMonkey · March 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Depot @ Mar 24 2005, 06:27 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Apos @ Mar 24 2005, 02:08 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Because none of those other doctors give either credible or relevant testimony. Most aren't even qualified in relevant fields.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
In YOUR oppinion, which fortunately doesn't count in the court's decisions or Jeb Bush's for that matter.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BathroomMonkey Mar 24 2005 @ 01:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
QUOTE (Depot @ Mar 24 2005, 03:10 AM)
The latest news has a prominent Jacksonville neurologist releasing an affadavit to Jeb Bush (Governor of Florida) stating that Terry Schiavo is not in a "persistent vegetative state" as described, but rather in a "minimally conscious state".

Worth noting is this neurologist based his diagnosis on observations (in person and on video) and never has examined her. There are also 30 other such affadavits filed by various doctors that seem to corelate with this one.

Well, technically, you singled him out, referring to him as 'prominent' and 'renowned' without evidence of, er, actual prominence or renown. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
When you researched Dr. Cheshire I'm certain you came across enough evidence regarding this - you simply refrained from posting it or providing both sides of the doctor. If you know of the Mayo Clinic they have some of the finest staff in the world.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
Not really.

Aside from working at the Mayo Clinic-- with <a href='http://www.mayoclinic.org/about/' target='_blank'>2,283</a> other doctors.

Terri Schiavo

Comments