<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->QUOTE (DarkATi @ Mar 25 2005, 02:47 AM) Because God loves you (John 3:16), so you should, naturally, love him. Obedience to God's wishes is a result of your love for him.
That logic doesn't follow. I could have a really annoying bitchy girlfriend who loves me, it doesn't mean I have to love them back, or even that I should.
QUOTE (John 14:23-24) And your humbleness, to say, you are God, I am not, do with me what you want, you know better than I. (Isaiah 64:8)
So? Who cares if God "knows better" (whetever the hell thats supposed to mean).
You dodged the issue. How is religious restriction considered freedom whilst doing what you want is considered slavery?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your girlfriend in this scenario doesn't really love you. Love is defined in the Bible, like this...
Love is always patient and kind; it is never jealous. Love is never boastful or conceited...
It is never rude or selfish...It does not take offense, and it is not resentful.
Love takes no pleasure in other people's sins but delights in truth. It is always ready to excuse, to trust, to hope, and to endure whatever comes. ~1 Corinthians 13:4-8 <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Ah, so I see how this goes: Only God has <i>real</i> love. So I should try to love him back with my fake love. No, that doesn't make any sense at all.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Furthermore, it is human nature to love those who love you. (The higher calling is loving those who don't love you!)
On to your next point...
Dodging the issue was not my intent, I thought I made it pretty clear but I'll try again. It's very simple. You choose one or the other, one master over another.
Master #1 lets you do whatever you want, he lets you rely on you and no one else for the most part, the only time he intervenes is when he wants to see you mess-up and have a good laugh. After you've had a good run, he kills you. Death.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Um.... what? Where did this personification come from? All I'm saying is that if you are doing what you want, then that is obviously more free then restricting yourself. My doing-what-I-want-ness is not a being. And everybody dies, there is no escaping it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Master #2 is stern but loving (love as defined earlier) he looks out for you and protects you, he gives you everything that you ask, so long as he knows it won't harm you or others and in the end, he keeps you alive, with him, forever. Life.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> No no no. See, God doesn't keep you alive, you still die. The only difference is that you either end up serving God in heaven, or doing who knows what in hell. So either way you look at it your either "living forever" or dying. What is God protecting me from exactly? My own desires? And why? So I can serve <i>him</i> when I die? **** that.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The choice here is, life or death. Long-term, short-term.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> No, youve got it wrong. There are two ways that that can go: Life or Life, long term or long term. (defining "living" to include the after life) Death or death, short term or short term. (Not defining living to include the afterlife).
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Master #1 or Master #2?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I am Master #1, by definition, so I obviously choose me.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I try to refrain from alot of cop-outs but sometimes these "cop-outs" are just the answers as given in the Bible.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Doesn't that suggest something to you?
<!--QuoteBegin-BulletHead+Mar 25 2005, 04:25 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BulletHead @ Mar 25 2005, 04:25 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I dun care if they are **** or not...
i just get **** off when they get **** towards ME...
THAT"S when I ram my knee in their oh so small **** and tell em to buzz off<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><Stan> Hey Wendy, what's a ****? *Wendy shrugs*<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Gwahir+Mar 25 2005, 03:48 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Gwahir @ Mar 25 2005, 03:48 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Do what you want?
The question comes up, how is what you want determined?
What feels good?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Are you going to try and tell me that Satan or somesuch is determining my desires? Where does that play into the whole "free will" thing? What a rediculous notion.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> For the kid who killed all the others in his school recently, he was seen grinning as he fired. So that felt good. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Probably, and thats where law comes in: it is supposed to protect an individual's freedoms by placing appropriate limits on those freedoms. Thats why I can't kill people, because it would comprimise their freedom to not be killed. Granted, there are a lot of freedom limiting laws that are unnessesary, but thats beside the point.
If you want, we can revise my "do what you want" statement to "do what you want, so long as no one else gets hurt (who doesn't want to get hurt)". Though it is somewhat more lengthy to type.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Perhaps you should question how your desires are formed.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I have a rough idea of how they are formed, though the specifics of psychology, neurology, evolutionary predisposition towards certain behaviors are somewhat over my head. That doesn't mean that I should start blaming my desires on some external force.
Ever heard of self-restraint? Often seen where there are no rules or laws preventing action yet a person imposes a limit on him or herself even though he or she wants to do it, why?
just consider it, if you blow it off it'll just keep coming up and you'll have to deal with it sooner or later.
edit: also, you say law prevents freedom from curtailing the freedoms of others, true. Yet those laws are also freely self-imposed, though often broken by individuals. So the creation of those laws is also a freedom. We'll need a better definition of freedom than, do what you want.
<!--QuoteBegin-Gwahir+Mar 25 2005, 04:41 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Gwahir @ Mar 25 2005, 04:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> did I mention an external force? You assumed it. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Not really, I took a guess as to where you were going with the argument.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Ever heard of self-restraint? Often seen where there are no rules or laws preventing action yet a person imposes a limit on him or herself, even though he or she wants to do it, why?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Because they feel it is wrong in some way. I do it myself. I have my own set of moral principals (belive it or not zealots, you can have morality without religion!) and I try to apply them to my everyday life. I should expect that others do the same. The difference between my morality and God's morality is that God demands that his morality be followed by everybody, I don't.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> just consider it, if you blow it off it'll just keep coming up and you'll have to deal with it sooner or later.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Consider what exactly? That self-restraint exists for some supernatural reason? Thats utterly rediculous.
BTW, if I am still misinterpreting your posts, then you should be more clear. This isn't OT, feel free to take up a whole page if need be.
no, I meant consider my original argument on the question of desire origin. No need to post your own specific examples, but think of some to yourself and consider where they came from.
also, take this into account when discussing with me: I try to work from a point accessable to your perspective. I do not take all of your assumptions but I try to remove many of my own as well. I work for a very open discussion. So even though I am a Christian, you can assume I do not mean to imply any spritual forces unless I specifically mention them.
Comments
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->QUOTE (DarkATi @ Mar 25 2005, 02:47 AM)
Because God loves you (John 3:16), so you should, naturally, love him. Obedience to God's wishes is a result of your love for him.
That logic doesn't follow. I could have a really annoying bitchy girlfriend who loves me, it doesn't mean I have to love them back, or even that I should.
QUOTE
(John 14:23-24) And your humbleness, to say, you are God, I am not, do with me what you want, you know better than I. (Isaiah 64:8)
So? Who cares if God "knows better" (whetever the hell thats supposed to mean).
You dodged the issue. How is religious restriction considered freedom whilst doing what you want is considered slavery?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your girlfriend in this scenario doesn't really love you. Love is defined in the Bible, like this...
Love is always patient and kind; it is never jealous. Love
is never boastful or conceited...
It is never rude or selfish...It does not take offense, and it
is not resentful.
Love takes no pleasure in other people's sins but
delights in truth. It is always ready to excuse, to trust, to
hope, and to endure whatever comes.
~1 Corinthians 13:4-8 <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ah, so I see how this goes: Only God has <i>real</i> love. So I should try to love him back with my fake love. No, that doesn't make any sense at all.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Furthermore, it is human nature to love those who love you. (The higher calling is loving those who don't love you!)
On to your next point...
Dodging the issue was not my intent, I thought I made it pretty clear but I'll try again. It's very simple. You choose one or the other, one master over another.
Master #1 lets you do whatever you want, he lets you rely on you and no one else for the most part, the only time he intervenes is when he wants to see you mess-up and have a good laugh. After you've had a good run, he kills you. Death.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Um.... what? Where did this personification come from? All I'm saying is that if you are doing what you want, then that is obviously more free then restricting yourself. My doing-what-I-want-ness is not a being. And everybody dies, there is no escaping it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Master #2 is stern but loving (love as defined earlier) he looks out for you and protects you, he gives you everything that you ask, so long as he knows it won't harm you or others and in the end, he keeps you alive, with him, forever. Life.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No no no. See, God doesn't keep you alive, you still die. The only difference is that you either end up serving God in heaven, or doing who knows what in hell. So either way you look at it your either "living forever" or dying. What is God protecting me from exactly? My own desires? And why? So I can serve <i>him</i> when I die? **** that.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The choice here is, life or death. Long-term, short-term.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, youve got it wrong. There are two ways that that can go:
Life or Life, long term or long term. (defining "living" to include the after life)
Death or death, short term or short term. (Not defining living to include the afterlife).
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Master #1 or Master #2?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I am Master #1, by definition, so I obviously choose me.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I try to refrain from alot of cop-outs but sometimes these "cop-outs" are just the answers as given in the Bible.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Doesn't that suggest something to you?
i just get **** off when they get **** towards ME...
THAT"S when I ram my knee in their oh so small **** and tell em to buzz off
i just get **** off when they get **** towards ME...
THAT"S when I ram my knee in their oh so small **** and tell em to buzz off<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><Stan> Hey Wendy, what's a ****?
*Wendy shrugs*<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
nuff said!
The question comes up, how is what you want determined?
What feels good? For the kid who killed all the others in his school recently, he was seen grinning as he fired. So that felt good.
Perhaps you should question how your desires are formed.
The question comes up, how is what you want determined?
What feels good?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Are you going to try and tell me that Satan or somesuch is determining my desires? Where does that play into the whole "free will" thing? What a rediculous notion.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
For the kid who killed all the others in his school recently, he was seen grinning as he fired. So that felt good.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Probably, and thats where law comes in: it is supposed to protect an individual's freedoms by placing appropriate limits on those freedoms. Thats why I can't kill people, because it would comprimise their freedom to not be killed. Granted, there are a lot of freedom limiting laws that are unnessesary, but thats beside the point.
If you want, we can revise my "do what you want" statement to "do what you want, so long as no one else gets hurt (who doesn't want to get hurt)". Though it is somewhat more lengthy to type.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Perhaps you should question how your desires are formed.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have a rough idea of how they are formed, though the specifics of psychology, neurology, evolutionary predisposition towards certain behaviors are somewhat over my head. That doesn't mean that I should start blaming my desires on some external force.
Ever heard of self-restraint? Often seen where there are no rules or laws preventing action yet a person imposes a limit on him or herself even though he or she wants to do it, why?
just consider it, if you blow it off it'll just keep coming up and you'll have to deal with it sooner or later.
edit: also, you say law prevents freedom from curtailing the freedoms of others, true. Yet those laws are also freely self-imposed, though often broken by individuals. So the creation of those laws is also a freedom. We'll need a better definition of freedom than, do what you want.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not really, I took a guess as to where you were going with the argument.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Ever heard of self-restraint? Often seen where there are no rules or laws preventing action yet a person imposes a limit on him or herself, even though he or she wants to do it, why?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because they feel it is wrong in some way. I do it myself. I have my own set of moral principals (belive it or not zealots, you can have morality without religion!) and I try to apply them to my everyday life. I should expect that others do the same. The difference between my morality and God's morality is that God demands that his morality be followed by everybody, I don't.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
just consider it, if you blow it off it'll just keep coming up and you'll have to deal with it sooner or later.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Consider what exactly? That self-restraint exists for some supernatural reason? Thats utterly rediculous.
BTW, if I am still misinterpreting your posts, then you should be more clear. This isn't OT, feel free to take up a whole page if need be.
also, take this into account when discussing with me: I try to work from a point accessable to your perspective. I do not take all of your assumptions but I try to remove many of my own as well. I work for a very open discussion. So even though I am a Christian, you can assume I do not mean to imply any spritual forces unless I specifically mention them.