<!--QuoteBegin-Cold NiTe+Apr 1 2005, 12:31 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cold NiTe @ Apr 1 2005, 12:31 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Faith is stretched too thin in this. I can't begin to allow myself to believe in a God who'd create a flood and then make it go poof 7 days later just because. I believe that if he created a flood, he'd play by the rules of his own game and create it in a way that obeys the laws he made.
Why do I say that? Because he has never made blatant miracles in the current day and age, just because it was some vague primordial time then doesn't mean the same rules didn't apply.
I believe in God yes, but perhaps not in the same manner that my fellows here do... I consider myself of a more Newtonian school of thought, clockwork universe and all. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> And you may very well, be right, perhaps God DID play by his own rules, I don't know and that is the bigger point here, I suppose. I don't know and neither do you.
<!--QuoteBegin-DarkATi+Apr 1 2005, 12:27 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkATi @ Apr 1 2005, 12:27 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> "But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible." — Matthew 19:26
God can do whatever he wants, he isn't bound by the laws He, Himself, created.
Let me ask a question, Cyndane, what would have to occur for you to believe in God, the Bible and Jesus, the whole enchilada? What are you looking for that you haven't found? (This question goes for anyone, I suppose.)
~ DarkATi <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm not Cyndane, but I am an atheist. To convince me about the existence of God, Jesus himself would have to fly down from heaven, speak to the entire world, and announce his existence.
<!--QuoteBegin-DarkATi+Apr 1 2005, 12:37 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkATi @ Apr 1 2005, 12:37 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Cold NiTe+Apr 1 2005, 12:31 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cold NiTe @ Apr 1 2005, 12:31 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Faith is stretched too thin in this. I can't begin to allow myself to believe in a God who'd create a flood and then make it go poof 7 days later just because. I believe that if he created a flood, he'd play by the rules of his own game and create it in a way that obeys the laws he made.
Why do I say that? Because he has never made blatant miracles in the current day and age, just because it was some vague primordial time then doesn't mean the same rules didn't apply.
I believe in God yes, but perhaps not in the same manner that my fellows here do... I consider myself of a more Newtonian school of thought, clockwork universe and all. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> And you may very well, be right, perhaps God DID play by his own rules, I don't know and that is the bigger point here, I suppose. I don't know and neither do you.
So, what are your beliefs Cold-Nite? [/curious]
~ DarkATi <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Well I was born a Roman Catholic. But God knows what I am now, cause I certainly don't. I believe in him, but I don't take everything at face value like I used to when I was seven. Those days are over. I am old enough to make my own judgements, instead of nodding along to others'.
Guys, you're failing t realise that if God could do anything he wanted, not bound by any rules, then he didn't need the flood in the first place. Lets say he wanted a flood though, because he likes water or something. Why make noah take 2 of every animal (an impossible feat, no matter how you look at it), when he could just have ressurected or recreated them all after the flood? Or better yet, give them temporary special non-drowning powers while the flood was going on.
If you're going to streach faith that far, then no ammount of evidence will mean anything to you, because lets face it, God could have just made it look like there wasn't a flood. But if you ask me, streaching faith that far is rediculous.
<!--QuoteBegin-SkulkBait+Apr 1 2005, 01:19 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SkulkBait @ Apr 1 2005, 01:19 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Guys, you're failing t realise that if God could do anything he wanted, not bound by any rules, then he didn't need the flood in the first place. Lets say he wanted a flood though, because he likes water or something. Why make noah take 2 of every animal (an impossible feat, no matter how you look at it), when he could just have ressurected or recreated them all after the flood? Or better yet, give them temporary special non-drowning powers while the flood was going on.
If you're going to streach faith that far, then no ammount of evidence will mean anything to you, because lets face it, God could have just made it look like there wasn't a flood. But if you ask me, streaching faith that far is rediculous. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Your point is correct, SkulkBait. The reasoning behind God's actions is highly arbitrary. It's exactly what I would guess would happen if the religion was created and run by people with no connection to a deity, whatsoever.
I don't like your example, however. God obviously acted in a way that would send a message to Noah. It's obvious that God did resurrect animals after flood (if it did, in fact, happen), because Noah wouldn't be able to build a ship that could carry every single animal, let alone every single species of monkey (how would he even find the species that lived in the Americas?). God must have acted in order to teach Noah and the rest of humanity a lesson.
<!--QuoteBegin-theclam+Apr 1 2005, 01:32 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (theclam @ Apr 1 2005, 01:32 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Your point is correct, SkulkBait. The reasoning behind God's actions is highly arbitrary. It's exactly what I would guess would happen if the religion was created and run by people with no connection to a deity, whatsoever.
I don't like your example, however. God obviously acted in a way that would send a message to Noah. It's obvious that God did resurrect animals after flood (if it did, in fact, happen), because Noah wouldn't be able to build a ship that could carry every single animal, let alone every single species of monkey (how would he even find the species that lived in the Americas?). God must have acted in order to teach Noah and the rest of humanity a lesson. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Why? Wouldn't simply vaporizing all the sinners simultaneously work just as well? And why is God so bent on instilling fear of his wrtath into humanity, especially since he later becomes a God of forgiveness?
<!--QuoteBegin-SkulkBait+Apr 1 2005, 01:49 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SkulkBait @ Apr 1 2005, 01:49 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-theclam+Apr 1 2005, 01:32 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (theclam @ Apr 1 2005, 01:32 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Your point is correct, SkulkBait. The reasoning behind God's actions is highly arbitrary. It's exactly what I would guess would happen if the religion was created and run by people with no connection to a deity, whatsoever.
I don't like your example, however. God obviously acted in a way that would send a message to Noah. It's obvious that God did resurrect animals after flood (if it did, in fact, happen), because Noah wouldn't be able to build a ship that could carry every single animal, let alone every single species of monkey (how would he even find the species that lived in the Americas?). God must have acted in order to teach Noah and the rest of humanity a lesson. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Why? Wouldn't simply vaporizing all the sinners simultaneously work just as well? And why is God so bent on instilling fear of his wrtath into humanity, especially since he later becomes a God of forgiveness? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Vaporizing the sinners wouldn't make for a good story (good myths are important for a religion). A flood is so much more dramatic, especially because Noah has to accomplish his task before the rains come. I don't have any clue why God wants humanity to fear him. Ask a Christian.
<!--QuoteBegin-theclam+Apr 1 2005, 02:12 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (theclam @ Apr 1 2005, 02:12 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I don't have any clue why God wants humanity to fear him. Ask a Christian. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Oh... its you. Sorry, you have an avatar now so I didn't recognize you.
<!--QuoteBegin-theclam+Apr 1 2005, 12:51 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (theclam @ Apr 1 2005, 12:51 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'm not Cyndane, but I am an atheist. To convince me about the existence of God, Jesus himself would have to fly down from heaven, speak to the entire world, and announce his existence.
Whether I'd worship him is another question. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Interesting that you should write that. Read Revelation, there's one section where it pretty much describes exactly that happening. So if you happen to be alive at that time...
<!--QuoteBegin-SkulkBait+Apr 1 2005, 01:49 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SkulkBait @ Apr 1 2005, 01:49 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-theclam+Apr 1 2005, 01:32 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (theclam @ Apr 1 2005, 01:32 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Your point is correct, SkulkBait. The reasoning behind God's actions is highly arbitrary. It's exactly what I would guess would happen if the religion was created and run by people with no connection to a deity, whatsoever.
I don't like your example, however. God obviously acted in a way that would send a message to Noah. It's obvious that God did resurrect animals after flood (if it did, in fact, happen), because Noah wouldn't be able to build a ship that could carry every single animal, let alone every single species of monkey (how would he even find the species that lived in the Americas?). God must have acted in order to teach Noah and the rest of humanity a lesson. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Why? Wouldn't simply vaporizing all the sinners simultaneously work just as well? And why is God so bent on instilling fear of his wrtath into humanity, especially since he later becomes a God of forgiveness? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I can't speak for anyone else, but everyone else instantly vapourising would sure as hell put the fear of God into me, perhaps even more so than a flood.
<!--QuoteBegin-theclam+Apr 1 2005, 12:51 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (theclam @ Apr 1 2005, 12:51 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-DarkATi+Apr 1 2005, 12:27 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkATi @ Apr 1 2005, 12:27 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> "But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible." — Matthew 19:26
God can do whatever he wants, he isn't bound by the laws He, Himself, created.
Let me ask a question, Cyndane, what would have to occur for you to believe in God, the Bible and Jesus, the whole enchilada? What are you looking for that you haven't found? (This question goes for anyone, I suppose.)
~ DarkATi <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm not Cyndane, but I am an atheist. To convince me about the existence of God, Jesus himself would have to fly down from heaven, speak to the entire world, and announce his existence.
Whether I'd worship him is another question. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Seems that to keep all the athiests at bay, Jesus would have to perform that feat at least every 100 years or so.
(this is not meant to goad - so don't take it wrong) The fact of the matter is that it didn't matter how many miracles Jesus did, or how many people saw him do them, or how many people record seeing him do them - people will still not believe - and that is entirely their choice.
However, to turn that arround and say that God hasn't provided enough evidence, or done enough miracles or whatever... just because someone refuses to believe doesn't mean the evidence isn't there.
Am I trying to disuade you from being an athiest - not in the least. I'm just puting that decision squarely on your shoulders - as opposed to letting God take the blame (but then again, there is no God... so of course it is your decision and there is no God to get mad at).
<!--QuoteBegin-DarkATi+Mar 31 2005, 11:27 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkATi @ Mar 31 2005, 11:27 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> "But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible." — Matthew 19:26
<b> Big no-no there DarkATi, if you wish to prove something again, quoting the bible is not the way to do it. </b>
Let me ask a question, Cyndane, what would have to occur for you to believe in God, the Bible and Jesus, the whole enchilada? What are you looking for that you haven't found? (This question goes for anyone, I suppose.)
~ DarkATi <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> First let me start off with my meteor "theory."
It is a fact that many meteors have hit the earth over the course of the earths 4-5 billion year life span. I do hope most of you recoginze that.
I shall list a few examples just to prove my point.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> However, some evidence remains, and over 150 major craters have been identified on the Earth. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The impact at Chicxulub, Yucatán is believed to have produced tsunamis 50 to 100 metres (150-300 feet) high which deposited debris many miles inland. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <a href='http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impact_crater' target='_blank'>Impact craters</a> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Later investigations suggested that this impact structure is dated from the late Cretaceous, about 65 million years ago. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <a href='http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicxulub_Crater' target='_blank'>Chicxulub Crater 65 Million year old one</a>
Yes, there was a meteor that hit the earth 65 million years ago that wipped out the dinosaurs. That is not a theory. It has been proven.
Now, as for your little flood. I shall repeat what I said and now it is defended, again. If you wish to cause a worldwide catastrophe (aka flood) there would have needed to be a meteor (ice meteor) hitting the earth. This huge ball of ice/rock would have had to been at least 10 kilometers in diameter, (7 miles) and that is the size when it hit the earth, it probably would have been closer to about 25 km, because the majority of it would have vaporized upon entering the atmosphere.
Now we shall move to the "theory." Lets say that ball of ice did hit the earth, and since the earliest accounts of the great flood date back to around 12,000 BC (that is written form) I give it an estimated date of 17,000 because we all know oral traditions are must easier to pass down then written especially when scrolls and paper do not develop untill the druids/egyptians of around 7000 BC.
We would not be here today, that is a fact, when a meteor made entirely of rock hit the earth 65 million years ago, it wiped out the most massive animals on the planet and left room for the little guys to survive. You can't deny that anymore.
Human's were the largest (population wise) mammals on the planet around 17,000 BC even though our population wasn't nearly as large as it is today, we also had ZERO technology like we have today. So, yes we would all not be here today if that had occurred. The flooding of the entire planet would have had to lasted years as as well. Not 40 days and 40 nights. That was a feeble attempt but I do applaud the attempt.
Now on the DarkATi, what would it take for me to believe everything? Quite simply, it would take god, himself, coming down and tell me that, he influenced the first civlizations and the golden rule is the one we should live by since every religion(read old) has this rule in it some where. Just in case someone isn't familar with it. It reads as follows: <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Love thy neighbor as thy self <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I would not accept Yeshua, Kirshna, IxChel, Ra, Mother Goddess, or any other man-made up diety. I'm sorry DarkATi but every religion IS the same just with different names and myths for various god-men and miracles done. That has almost been proven as fact, and is getting closer to when it will be.
AbraWould you kindlyJoin Date: 2003-08-17Member: 19870Members
i don't belive in god...
Antiflame+antianger-shield activated
Me > God. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Pepe Muffassa+Apr 1 2005, 08:14 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Pepe Muffassa @ Apr 1 2005, 08:14 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-theclam+Apr 1 2005, 12:51 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (theclam @ Apr 1 2005, 12:51 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-DarkATi+Apr 1 2005, 12:27 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkATi @ Apr 1 2005, 12:27 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> "But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible." — Matthew 19:26
God can do whatever he wants, he isn't bound by the laws He, Himself, created.
Let me ask a question, Cyndane, what would have to occur for you to believe in God, the Bible and Jesus, the whole enchilada? What are you looking for that you haven't found? (This question goes for anyone, I suppose.)
~ DarkATi <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm not Cyndane, but I am an atheist. To convince me about the existence of God, Jesus himself would have to fly down from heaven, speak to the entire world, and announce his existence.
Whether I'd worship him is another question. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Seems that to keep all the athiests at bay, Jesus would have to perform that feat at least every 100 years or so.
(this is not meant to goad - so don't take it wrong) The fact of the matter is that it didn't matter how many miracles Jesus did, or how many people saw him do them, or how many people record seeing him do them - people will still not believe - and that is entirely their choice.
However, to turn that arround and say that God hasn't provided enough evidence, or done enough miracles or whatever... just because someone refuses to believe doesn't mean the evidence isn't there.
Am I trying to disuade you from being an athiest - not in the least. I'm just puting that decision squarely on your shoulders - as opposed to letting God take the blame (but then again, there is no God... so of course it is your decision and there is no God to get mad at). <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> There are a dozen other religions that claim to have even more evidence of the existence of their belief's than Christianity does.
If someone was somehow able to find evidence that would conclusively prove the existence of God, then everyone would know, because it would be the biggest event of the past 2000 years.
Cyndane, you make some great points, but you are very confused on what constitutes fact and theory.
Yeay, you can find links to why evolution/meteors/godzilla are all "fact" - Other people can find links to why creation/God/martians are "fact".
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yes, there was a meteor that hit the earth 65 million years ago that wipped out the dinosaurs. That is not a theory. It has been proven.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You believe this to be proven, and there is some evidence to back it up - that does not make it fact. In fact, being the time/distance removed - it will never come out of the realm of "theory". To make a case - in - point, look at Jesus. Here is a guy who is well documented as doing miracles... and only 2k years away from us today. Can I call them "fact" with any credibility (on these forums)? I think not. How then is a supposed event 350 million years ago supposed to be taken any more seriously? (no writen record, no verbal record).
Apply that same principle to this quote: <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I would not accept Yeshua, Kirshna, IxChel, Ra, Mother Goddess, or any other man-made up diety. I'm sorry DarkATi but every religion IS the same just with different names and myths for various god-men and miracles done. That has almost been proven as fact, and is getting closer to when it will be.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In your mind they are "almost proven as fact" - no offence intended, but your mind and your sources are not an ultimate authority in this world. Do I respect your cognative abilities and reasoning skills - Yes. Do I think you know the answer to humanitys quest for knowlege of God - No.
<!--QuoteBegin-Pepe Muffassa+Apr 1 2005, 12:33 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Pepe Muffassa @ Apr 1 2005, 12:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Cyndane, you make some great points, but you are very confused on what constitutes fact and theory.
Yeay, you can find links to why evolution/meteors/godzilla are all "fact" - Other people can find links to why creation/God/martians are "fact".
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yes, there was a meteor that hit the earth 65 million years ago that wipped out the dinosaurs. That is not a theory. It has been proven.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You believe this to be proven, and there is some evidence to back it up - that does not make it fact. In fact, being the time/distance removed - it will never come out of the realm of "theory". To make a case - in - point, look at Jesus. Here is a guy who is well documented as doing miracles... and only 2k years away from us today. Can I call them "fact" with any credibility (on these forums)? I think not. How then is a supposed event 350 million years ago supposed to be taken any more seriously? (no writen record, no verbal record).
Apply that same principle to this quote: <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I would not accept Yeshua, Kirshna, IxChel, Ra, Mother Goddess, or any other man-made up diety. I'm sorry DarkATi but every religion IS the same just with different names and myths for various god-men and miracles done. That has almost been proven as fact, and is getting closer to when it will be.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In your mind they are "almost proven as fact" - no offence intended, but your mind and your sources are not an ultimate authority in this world. Do I respect your cognative abilities and reasoning skills - Yes. Do I think you know the answer to humanitys quest for knowlege of God - No. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I am not as confused as you think as to what constitutes fact and theory. Fact = proven true. Theory = proven true, but <b> little to no evidence for. </b>
My problem is I'm assuming you actually believe dinosaurs exsisted... bible says they didn't or just leaves them out even though they ruled for the better part of 50 million years. I should not have assumed that, (even though we have proof they did exist and we can see their skeletons through fossilization.) my apologies for that assumption.
Actually Pepe... the meteor that killed the dinosaurs did strike the earth 65 million years ago not 350.. I think that was a typo on your part. Excused of course.
How you might ask? Same way we date old artifacts, although it wasn't carbon 14, it was more then likely the Pb (Lead) isotope that tends to have a 1 billion year half-life, give or take a few hundred years. Meteor rites also have HIGHLY concetrated Nickel ore in the, while this is not radioactive, it also is not very probable to have huge deposits concetrated in a 10km (7mile) diameter of a crater, and no where else.
Also, it is fact because it is stated as such in an encylopedia, unless you say wikipedia lies. In which case, go look at encarta, world book, or any other encyclopedia and they will state the same facts. That is what encyclopedias are for, facts. Do they list theories, you bet, but they also state they are theories and what current facts back them up.
I don't see how you can even compare an event we actually have seen the effects of, (us evolving from apes/primates etc) due to the strike of this meteor to a man who so many other religions have written about at earlier time frames. I simply can not wrap my head around that one.
I do not want to be the authority on god and religions, I also never said I was.
Also there are far too many simiarlities between all the religions for me to see it as one being better then the other. In all honesty, one isn't better, none of them are wrong other then where they disobey the golden rule and there are a few that do not. Hindu is a famous one for it, so is Buddism, and Janism.
I believe there will be a time when someone will discover that all religions actually did come from the same word of mouth that probably started back around 12,000 BC give or take a few hundred years. Of course this is all speculation, if I'm wrong, excellent I would welcome it but it does make one wonder why everyone all over the world has simliar stories and of course we all know humans loved to pass stories on by word of mouth before there were written texts.
While I do respect that almost everyone on here has refrained from the usuall bigotry that we see with these issues, I would at least to some suggest them to open their eyes a little bit more and actually read some of the articles posted, I know I have read the ones that were used to back up the christian side, I don't see why it is so hard to read ones that are not biased.
*edited* for spelling grammatical errors.. silly english.
<!--QuoteBegin-Pepe Muffassa+Apr 1 2005, 01:33 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Pepe Muffassa @ Apr 1 2005, 01:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You believe this to be proven, and there is some evidence to back it up - that does not make it fact. In fact, being the time/distance removed - it will never come out of the realm of "theory". To make a case - in - point, look at Jesus. Here is a guy who is well documented as doing miracles... and only 2k years away from us today. Can I call them "fact" with any credibility (on these forums)? I think not. How then is a supposed event 350 million years ago supposed to be taken any more seriously? (no writen record, no verbal record). <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Fossil records and DNA evidence are factual sources of information. Writings from religious figures are not.
It's not like we know exactly what happened 350 million years ago. All we've got is some good guesses based upon evidence.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You believe this to be proven, and there is some evidence to back it up - that does not make it fact. In fact, being the time/distance removed - it will never come out of the realm of "theory". To make a case - in - point, look at Jesus. Here is a guy who is well documented as doing miracles... and only 2k years away from us today. Can I call them "fact" with any credibility (on these forus world. Do I respect your cognative abilities and reasoning skills - Yes. Do I think yoms)? I think not. How then is a supposed event 350 million years ago supposed to be taken any more seriously? (no writen record, no verbal record).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think you're confusing a scientific theory with the colloquial meaning of theory. A scientific theory is a hypothesis that has been rigorously and thoroughly supported by evidence, like the Theory of Gravity. When there is only one scientific theory explaining something, especially one that has been around for 100+ years, then the layman should believe it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In your mind they are "almost proven as fact" - no offence intended, but your mind and your sources are not an ultimate authority in thiu know the answer to humanitys quest for knowlege of God - No.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Cyndane was exaggerating, but you have to admit that there are certain characteristics that are shared between religions.
<!--QuoteBegin-KungFuDiscoMonkey+Apr 1 2005, 01:55 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (KungFuDiscoMonkey @ Apr 1 2005, 01:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I should point out that evolution is a theory, not fact. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't want to digress, but I can't leave this point unanswered.
Evolution is both a fact and a theory. It is a fact that evolution occurs. There is too much evidence for it not to be true, unless you have some contrived belief that God created all the fossils and made DNA so similiar between every life form. Even so, you have to deal with speciation that has occured during recorded human history.
Evolution is also a theory. The Theory of Evolution is an explanation of how evolution occurs.
<!--QuoteBegin-KungFuDiscoMonkey+Apr 1 2005, 12:55 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (KungFuDiscoMonkey @ Apr 1 2005, 12:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I should point out that evolution is a theory, not fact. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I would like to point out I said nothing about evolution in my prior posts.
I was exaggerating correct, and I am more the happy to admit it. :-)
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I would not accept Yeshua, Kirshna, IxChel, Ra, Mother Goddess, or any other man-made up diety. I'm sorry DarkATi but every religion IS the same just with different names and myths for various god-men and miracles done. That has almost been proven as fact, and is getting closer to when it will be.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Augh. I'm content to let this sort of idiocy run rampant in one thread, but the second you start spouting off this sort of crap everywhere you go, I guess I'll have to ignore the fact that you're going to cry bias on every source I throw at you and beat this shoddy, half-constructed pipe dream of a worldview you call truth into the ground.
Lets start with a question or two.
1) Is it possible for parallels or similarities to appear between two or more written accounts without the more recent document(s) being established as a fictional "spin-off"?
2) How much similar detail is required in order to establish certainty of a "spin-off", or how little similarity would sufficiently disprove that notion?
I imagine you'll say 'no' to number one, especially in the case of Jesus, Krishna, Osiris, etc. But is this always the case? I'd like to have your answer first, so that when I use it against you later the effect is just that much more potent.
I'm going out for the evening. I can't wait for your response.
Well let me pose this question: If you happen to believe in the "big-bang" (which I personally do, myself)... who or what put the bang in the big-bang?
Why would stable-thus-far matter or energy simply explode? It's been chillin' in "space" (space didn't really exist, thus the quotes) ... what causes it to go boom?
Does right and wrong exist? Should everyone do as they please? Should everyone do whatever feels good, all the time? What is evil? What is good? Are they obsolete terms? Are we out-growing them as we continue to evolve?
What about demons? Dark forces? Satan? Do these things exist? If not, why not? If so, does this prove the existence of a benevolent twin?
<!--QuoteBegin-DarkATi+Apr 2 2005, 09:58 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkATi @ Apr 2 2005, 09:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Well let me pose this question: If you happen to believe in the "big-bang" (which I personally do, myself)... who or what put the bang in the big-bang? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't know. That doesn't mean that we should assume it's God, however. You can even say the same thing about God. If God exists, then who made God?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Why would stable-thus-far matter or energy simply explode? It's been chillin' in "space" (space didn't really exist, thus the quotes) ... what causes it to go boom?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Like novas? We have a decent comprehension of what causes a nova: <a href='http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nova' target='_blank'>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nova</a>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Does right and wrong exist? Should everyone do as they please? Should everyone do whatever feels good, all the time? What is evil? What is good? Are they obsolete terms? Are we out-growing them as we continue to evolve?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm an atheist. I define my moral system by what makes me, or other people, feel good. I've got understandings of good and evil that I have derived from what I've been taught, what my culture believes, and personal examination. Thus, I think that good and evil are mostly relative. I'd say that some variation of the golden rule is the only hard-and-fast rule.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->What about demons? Dark forces? Satan? Do these things exist? If not, why not? If so, does this prove the existence of a benevolent twin?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't think they do. I haven't seen any evidence that there is some supernatural evil force (or a good force, for that matter), so I don't believe in one. Just because an evil entity exists, doesn't mean that a good entity exists, and vice versa.
<!--QuoteBegin-theclam+Apr 2 2005, 10:10 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (theclam @ Apr 2 2005, 10:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-DarkATi+Apr 2 2005, 09:58 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkATi @ Apr 2 2005, 09:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Well let me pose this question: If you happen to believe in the "big-bang" (which I personally do, myself)... who or what put the bang in the big-bang? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't know. That doesn't mean that we should assume it's God, however. You can even say the same thing about God. If God exists, then who made God? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> But frankly, why bother? It is literally impossible to discuss anything that takes place outside the bounds of the universe. In fact that previous sentence is in error because "take place" implies qualities which, as far as we know, only exist within this universe.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Does right and wrong exist? Should everyone do as they please? Should everyone do whatever feels good, all the time? What is evil? What is good? Are they obsolete terms? Are we out-growing them as we continue to evolve?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> No. But who says the need to be defined in religious terms? I would contend that they certainly do not.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->What about demons? Dark forces? Satan? Do these things exist? If not, why not? If so, does this prove the existence of a benevolent twin?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Again, supernatural beings are, by definition, not bound by the laws of the universe (exist outside it, as it were), and any attempts to discuss such things are ultimately futile.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->and any attempts to discuss such things are ultimately futile.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thank you skulky, this is the exact point I was trying to make. Discussion on these issues is futile. So, you be the judge, you have a Bible or can get one or can PM me and I'll get you one. This whole discussion bores me.
Believe what you want to believe. End of discussion, me thinks. I'm very tired of Christians trying to persuade non-believers and yet I find myself doing it. Shame on me. The last question I will pose (and this is a legitimate question, not rhetorical or posed to make a point, just a question.) is this:
<!--QuoteBegin-DarkATi+Apr 2 2005, 10:35 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkATi @ Apr 2 2005, 10:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> What if the Bible were true? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The universe would cease to exist, of course. There are too many contradictions in the Bible for any system of logic to work. Real logical paradoxes would be present, so 1 could equal 0, so physics wouldn't work, and everything would fall apart. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I'd like to point out how all defenders of the bible simply bipassed the whole meteor thing. GG for facts.
Secondly, I am not even going to bother legionaired, you have deemed yourself not even open minded enough to look at links I post and I have only seen one link from you and it was a ministry site, if that isn't biased I don't know what is.
Also, you stated relgioustolerance was biased, really? Here is THEIR mission statement.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> This is a large religious web site which promotes religious freedom, tolerance and diversity as positive cultural values. It contains over 2,800 essays and menus. But it is very different from almost all other religious sites:
We do not promote our own religious beliefs. We can't because we are a multi-faith group. We try to explain the full range of religious belief in North America, from Asatru to Zoroastrianism, including Christianity, Hinduism, Wicca etc.
We try to describe all viewpoints on controversial religious topics objectively and fairly. We cover everything from abortion access to equal rights and protections for homosexuals and bisexuals, including same-sex marriage, and dozens of other "hot" topics. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Other then encyclopedias they are the most unbiased site I have found, for EITHER side.
In addition, you want to know what it would take for me to say something wasn't a spinoff, very simply put, find a document, that predates the Egyptian/Hindu writtings that says Yeshua(Jesus) came to earth. Then I shall concede.
You see, Cyndane, the thing is that religious types can claim that any other cultures that have beliefs similiar to Christianity, just have incomplete partial knowledge of the true faith. You can say that their prophets may have some sort of connection with God, but weren't revealed the true faith like the true Christian prophets were. There's no way to prove it wrong without proving religion wrong.
For non-biblical literalists, it can be said that the mythology isn't especially important, but only serves in order to better explain the major concepts, moral stances, and ideas of Christianity. Then, there's not much that you can do to prove this wrong.
Arguing about whether or not religions stole from each other (they obviously have similiar elements, but the main issue you're arguing about is stealing) is interesting, but not particularily meaningful.
Comments
Why do I say that? Because he has never made blatant miracles in the current day and age, just because it was some vague primordial time then doesn't mean the same rules didn't apply.
I believe in God yes, but perhaps not in the same manner that my fellows here do... I consider myself of a more Newtonian school of thought, clockwork universe and all. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
And you may very well, be right, perhaps God DID play by his own rules, I don't know and that is the bigger point here, I suppose. I don't know and neither do you.
So, what are your beliefs Cold-Nite? [/curious]
~ DarkATi
God can do whatever he wants, he isn't bound by the laws He, Himself, created.
Let me ask a question, Cyndane, what would have to occur for you to believe in God, the Bible and Jesus, the whole enchilada? What are you looking for that you haven't found? (This question goes for anyone, I suppose.)
~ DarkATi <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not Cyndane, but I am an atheist. To convince me about the existence of God, Jesus himself would have to fly down from heaven, speak to the entire world, and announce his existence.
Whether I'd worship him is another question.
Why do I say that? Because he has never made blatant miracles in the current day and age, just because it was some vague primordial time then doesn't mean the same rules didn't apply.
I believe in God yes, but perhaps not in the same manner that my fellows here do... I consider myself of a more Newtonian school of thought, clockwork universe and all. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And you may very well, be right, perhaps God DID play by his own rules, I don't know and that is the bigger point here, I suppose. I don't know and neither do you.
So, what are your beliefs Cold-Nite? [/curious]
~ DarkATi <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well I was born a Roman Catholic. But God knows what I am now, cause I certainly don't. I believe in him, but I don't take everything at face value like I used to when I was seven. Those days are over. I am old enough to make my own judgements, instead of nodding along to others'.
If you're going to streach faith that far, then no ammount of evidence will mean anything to you, because lets face it, God could have just made it look like there wasn't a flood. But if you ask me, streaching faith that far is rediculous.
If you're going to streach faith that far, then no ammount of evidence will mean anything to you, because lets face it, God could have just made it look like there wasn't a flood. But if you ask me, streaching faith that far is rediculous. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your point is correct, SkulkBait. The reasoning behind God's actions is highly arbitrary. It's exactly what I would guess would happen if the religion was created and run by people with no connection to a deity, whatsoever.
I don't like your example, however. God obviously acted in a way that would send a message to Noah. It's obvious that God did resurrect animals after flood (if it did, in fact, happen), because Noah wouldn't be able to build a ship that could carry every single animal, let alone every single species of monkey (how would he even find the species that lived in the Americas?). God must have acted in order to teach Noah and the rest of humanity a lesson.
I don't like your example, however. God obviously acted in a way that would send a message to Noah. It's obvious that God did resurrect animals after flood (if it did, in fact, happen), because Noah wouldn't be able to build a ship that could carry every single animal, let alone every single species of monkey (how would he even find the species that lived in the Americas?). God must have acted in order to teach Noah and the rest of humanity a lesson. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why? Wouldn't simply vaporizing all the sinners simultaneously work just as well? And why is God so bent on instilling fear of his wrtath into humanity, especially since he later becomes a God of forgiveness?
I don't like your example, however. God obviously acted in a way that would send a message to Noah. It's obvious that God did resurrect animals after flood (if it did, in fact, happen), because Noah wouldn't be able to build a ship that could carry every single animal, let alone every single species of monkey (how would he even find the species that lived in the Americas?). God must have acted in order to teach Noah and the rest of humanity a lesson. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why? Wouldn't simply vaporizing all the sinners simultaneously work just as well? And why is God so bent on instilling fear of his wrtath into humanity, especially since he later becomes a God of forgiveness? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Vaporizing the sinners wouldn't make for a good story (good myths are important for a religion). A flood is so much more dramatic, especially because Noah has to accomplish his task before the rains come. I don't have any clue why God wants humanity to fear him. Ask a Christian.
Oh... its you. Sorry, you have an avatar now so I didn't recognize you.
Oh... its you. Sorry, you have an avatar now so I didn't recognize you. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I see you've converted.
Whether I'd worship him is another question. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Interesting that you should write that. Read Revelation, there's one section where it pretty much describes exactly that happening. So if you happen to be alive at that time...
I don't like your example, however. God obviously acted in a way that would send a message to Noah. It's obvious that God did resurrect animals after flood (if it did, in fact, happen), because Noah wouldn't be able to build a ship that could carry every single animal, let alone every single species of monkey (how would he even find the species that lived in the Americas?). God must have acted in order to teach Noah and the rest of humanity a lesson. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why? Wouldn't simply vaporizing all the sinners simultaneously work just as well? And why is God so bent on instilling fear of his wrtath into humanity, especially since he later becomes a God of forgiveness? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can't speak for anyone else, but everyone else instantly vapourising would sure as hell put the fear of God into me, perhaps even more so than a flood.
God can do whatever he wants, he isn't bound by the laws He, Himself, created.
Let me ask a question, Cyndane, what would have to occur for you to believe in God, the Bible and Jesus, the whole enchilada? What are you looking for that you haven't found? (This question goes for anyone, I suppose.)
~ DarkATi <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not Cyndane, but I am an atheist. To convince me about the existence of God, Jesus himself would have to fly down from heaven, speak to the entire world, and announce his existence.
Whether I'd worship him is another question. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Seems that to keep all the athiests at bay, Jesus would have to perform that feat at least every 100 years or so.
(this is not meant to goad - so don't take it wrong) The fact of the matter is that it didn't matter how many miracles Jesus did, or how many people saw him do them, or how many people record seeing him do them - people will still not believe - and that is entirely their choice.
However, to turn that arround and say that God hasn't provided enough evidence, or done enough miracles or whatever... just because someone refuses to believe doesn't mean the evidence isn't there.
Am I trying to disuade you from being an athiest - not in the least. I'm just puting that decision squarely on your shoulders - as opposed to letting God take the blame (but then again, there is no God... so of course it is your decision and there is no God to get mad at).
<b> Big no-no there DarkATi, if you wish to prove something again, quoting the bible is not the way to do it.
</b>
Let me ask a question, Cyndane, what would have to occur for you to believe in God, the Bible and Jesus, the whole enchilada? What are you looking for that you haven't found? (This question goes for anyone, I suppose.)
~ DarkATi <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
First let me start off with my meteor "theory."
It is a fact that many meteors have hit the earth over the course of the earths 4-5 billion year life span. I do hope most of you recoginze that.
I shall list a few examples just to prove my point.
<a href='http://web.ask.com/redir?u=http%3A%2F%2Ftm.wc.ask.com%2Fr%3Ft%3Dan%26s%3Da%26sv%3Dz6f5372f2%26uid%3D06EBCCA706CFDCD14%26sid%3D16CF32BC3DEF5D424%26o%3D10234%26qid%3D803DF1E56668D3459823C899E6076451%26io%3D5%26ask%3DWhen%2Bdid%2Bmeteors%2Bhit%2Bthe%2Bearth%253f%26uip%3D4509f94e%26en%3Dte%26eo%3D-100%26pt%3D1908%2520SIBERIA%2520EXPLOSION%253A%2520Reconstructing%2520an%2520Asteroid%2520Impact%2520from%26ac%3D24%26qs%3D0%26pg%3D1%26ep%3D1%26te_par%3D178%26te_id%3D%26u%3Dhttp%253a%252f%252fwww.psi.edu%252fprojects%252fsiberia%252fsiberia.html&bpg=http%3A%2F%2Fweb.ask.com%2Fweb%3Fq%3DWhen%2Bdid%2Bmeteors%2Bhit%2Bthe%2Bearth%253f%26o%3D10234%26page%3D1&q=When%20did%20meteors%20hit%20the%20earth?&s=a&bu=http%3a%2f%2fwww.psi.edu%2fprojects%2fsiberia%2fsiberia.html&qte=0&o=10234&abs=If%20asteroids%20hit%20Earth%2C%20why%20don't%20we%20see%20more%20such%20explosions%3F%20Many%20asteroidal%20fragments%20circle%20the%20Sun%3B&****=1908%20SIBERIA%20EXPLOSION%3A%20Reconstructing%20an%20Asteroid%20Impact%20from&bin=&cat=wb&purl=http%3A%2F%2Ftm.wc.ask.com%2Fi%2Fb.html%3Ft%3Dan%26s%3Da%26uid%3D06EBCCA706CFDCD14%26sid%3D16CF32BC3DEF5D424%26qid%3D803DF1E56668D3459823C899E6076451%26io%3D%26sv%3Dz6f5372f2%26o%3D10234%26ask%3DWhen%2Bdid%2Bmeteors%2Bhit%2Bthe%2Bearth%253f%26uip%3D4509f94e%26en%3Dbm%26eo%3D-100%26pt%3D%26ac%3D6%26qs%3D0%26pg%3D1%26u%3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fmyjeeves.ask.com%2Faction%2Fsnip&Complete=1' target='_blank'>Siberian Meteor (1900s)</a>
<a href='http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1911' target='_blank'>1911 (Egypt)</a>
<a href='http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ann_Hodges' target='_blank'>1954 (Alabama)</a>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
However, some evidence remains, and over 150 major craters have been identified on the Earth.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
The impact at Chicxulub, Yucatán is believed to have produced tsunamis 50 to 100 metres (150-300 feet) high which deposited debris many miles inland.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<a href='http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impact_crater' target='_blank'>Impact craters</a>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Later investigations suggested that this impact structure is dated from the late Cretaceous, about 65 million years ago.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<a href='http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicxulub_Crater' target='_blank'>Chicxulub Crater 65 Million year old one</a>
Yes, there was a meteor that hit the earth 65 million years ago that wipped out the dinosaurs. That is not a theory. It has been proven.
Now, as for your little flood. I shall repeat what I said and now it is defended, again.
If you wish to cause a worldwide catastrophe (aka flood) there would have needed to be a meteor (ice meteor) hitting the earth. This huge ball of ice/rock would have had to been at least 10 kilometers in diameter, (7 miles) and that is the size when it hit the earth, it probably would have been closer to about 25 km, because the majority of it would have vaporized upon entering the atmosphere.
Now we shall move to the "theory." Lets say that ball of ice did hit the earth, and since the earliest accounts of the great flood date back to around 12,000 BC (that is written form) I give it an estimated date of 17,000 because we all know oral traditions are must easier to pass down then written especially when scrolls and paper do not develop untill the druids/egyptians of around 7000 BC.
We would not be here today, that is a fact, when a meteor made entirely of rock hit the earth 65 million years ago, it wiped out the most massive animals on the planet and left room for the little guys to survive. You can't deny that anymore.
Human's were the largest (population wise) mammals on the planet around 17,000 BC even though our population wasn't nearly as large as it is today, we also had ZERO technology like we have today. So, yes we would all not be here today if that had occurred. The flooding of the entire planet would have had to lasted years as as well. Not 40 days and 40 nights. That was a feeble attempt but I do applaud the attempt.
Now on the DarkATi, what would it take for me to believe everything? Quite simply, it would take god, himself, coming down and tell me that, he influenced the first civlizations and the golden rule is the one we should live by since every religion(read old) has this rule in it some where. Just in case someone isn't familar with it. It reads as follows:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Love thy neighbor as thy self
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would not accept Yeshua, Kirshna, IxChel, Ra, Mother Goddess, or any other man-made up diety. I'm sorry DarkATi but every religion IS the same just with different names and myths for various god-men and miracles done. That has almost been proven as fact, and is getting closer to when it will be.
Antiflame+antianger-shield activated
Me > God. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
God can do whatever he wants, he isn't bound by the laws He, Himself, created.
Let me ask a question, Cyndane, what would have to occur for you to believe in God, the Bible and Jesus, the whole enchilada? What are you looking for that you haven't found? (This question goes for anyone, I suppose.)
~ DarkATi <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not Cyndane, but I am an atheist. To convince me about the existence of God, Jesus himself would have to fly down from heaven, speak to the entire world, and announce his existence.
Whether I'd worship him is another question. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Seems that to keep all the athiests at bay, Jesus would have to perform that feat at least every 100 years or so.
(this is not meant to goad - so don't take it wrong) The fact of the matter is that it didn't matter how many miracles Jesus did, or how many people saw him do them, or how many people record seeing him do them - people will still not believe - and that is entirely their choice.
However, to turn that arround and say that God hasn't provided enough evidence, or done enough miracles or whatever... just because someone refuses to believe doesn't mean the evidence isn't there.
Am I trying to disuade you from being an athiest - not in the least. I'm just puting that decision squarely on your shoulders - as opposed to letting God take the blame (but then again, there is no God... so of course it is your decision and there is no God to get mad at). <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
There are a dozen other religions that claim to have even more evidence of the existence of their belief's than Christianity does.
If someone was somehow able to find evidence that would conclusively prove the existence of God, then everyone would know, because it would be the biggest event of the past 2000 years.
Yeay, you can find links to why evolution/meteors/godzilla are all "fact" - Other people can find links to why creation/God/martians are "fact".
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yes, there was a meteor that hit the earth 65 million years ago that wipped out the dinosaurs. That is not a theory. It has been proven.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You believe this to be proven, and there is some evidence to back it up - that does not make it fact. In fact, being the time/distance removed - it will never come out of the realm of "theory". To make a case - in - point, look at Jesus. Here is a guy who is well documented as doing miracles... and only 2k years away from us today. Can I call them "fact" with any credibility (on these forums)? I think not. How then is a supposed event 350 million years ago supposed to be taken any more seriously? (no writen record, no verbal record).
Apply that same principle to this quote:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I would not accept Yeshua, Kirshna, IxChel, Ra, Mother Goddess, or any other man-made up diety. I'm sorry DarkATi but every religion IS the same just with different names and myths for various god-men and miracles done. That has almost been proven as fact, and is getting closer to when it will be.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In your mind they are "almost proven as fact" - no offence intended, but your mind and your sources are not an ultimate authority in this world. Do I respect your cognative abilities and reasoning skills - Yes. Do I think you know the answer to humanitys quest for knowlege of God - No.
Yeay, you can find links to why evolution/meteors/godzilla are all "fact" - Other people can find links to why creation/God/martians are "fact".
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yes, there was a meteor that hit the earth 65 million years ago that wipped out the dinosaurs. That is not a theory. It has been proven.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You believe this to be proven, and there is some evidence to back it up - that does not make it fact. In fact, being the time/distance removed - it will never come out of the realm of "theory". To make a case - in - point, look at Jesus. Here is a guy who is well documented as doing miracles... and only 2k years away from us today. Can I call them "fact" with any credibility (on these forums)? I think not. How then is a supposed event 350 million years ago supposed to be taken any more seriously? (no writen record, no verbal record).
Apply that same principle to this quote:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I would not accept Yeshua, Kirshna, IxChel, Ra, Mother Goddess, or any other man-made up diety. I'm sorry DarkATi but every religion IS the same just with different names and myths for various god-men and miracles done. That has almost been proven as fact, and is getting closer to when it will be.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In your mind they are "almost proven as fact" - no offence intended, but your mind and your sources are not an ultimate authority in this world. Do I respect your cognative abilities and reasoning skills - Yes. Do I think you know the answer to humanitys quest for knowlege of God - No. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I am not as confused as you think as to what constitutes fact and theory. Fact = proven true. Theory = proven true, but <b> little to no evidence for. </b>
My problem is I'm assuming you actually believe dinosaurs exsisted... bible says they didn't or just leaves them out even though they ruled for the better part of 50 million years. I should not have assumed that, (even though we have proof they did exist and we can see their skeletons through fossilization.) my apologies for that assumption.
Actually Pepe... the meteor that killed the dinosaurs did strike the earth 65 million years ago not 350.. I think that was a typo on your part. Excused of course.
How you might ask? Same way we date old artifacts, although it wasn't carbon 14, it was more then likely the Pb (Lead) isotope that tends to have a 1 billion year half-life, give or take a few hundred years. Meteor rites also have HIGHLY concetrated Nickel ore in the, while this is not radioactive, it also is not very probable to have huge deposits concetrated in a 10km (7mile) diameter of a crater, and no where else.
Also, it is fact because it is stated as such in an encylopedia, unless you say wikipedia lies. In which case, go look at encarta, world book, or any other encyclopedia and they will state the same facts. That is what encyclopedias are for, facts. Do they list theories, you bet, but they also state they are theories and what current facts back them up.
I don't see how you can even compare an event we actually have seen the effects of, (us evolving from apes/primates etc) due to the strike of this meteor to a man who so many other religions have written about at earlier time frames. I simply can not wrap my head around that one.
I do not want to be the authority on god and religions, I also never said I was.
Also there are far too many simiarlities between all the religions for me to see it as one being better then the other. In all honesty, one isn't better, none of them are wrong other then where they disobey the golden rule and there are a few that do not. Hindu is a famous one for it, so is Buddism, and Janism.
I believe there will be a time when someone will discover that all religions actually did come from the same word of mouth that probably started back around 12,000 BC give or take a few hundred years. Of course this is all speculation, if I'm wrong, excellent I would welcome it but it does make one wonder why everyone all over the world has simliar stories and of course we all know humans loved to pass stories on by word of mouth before there were written texts.
While I do respect that almost everyone on here has refrained from the usuall bigotry that we see with these issues, I would at least to some suggest them to open their eyes a little bit more and actually read some of the articles posted, I know I have read the ones that were used to back up the christian side, I don't see why it is so hard to read ones that are not biased.
*edited* for spelling grammatical errors.. silly english.
Fossil records and DNA evidence are factual sources of information. Writings from religious figures are not.
It's not like we know exactly what happened 350 million years ago. All we've got is some good guesses based upon evidence.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You believe this to be proven, and there is some evidence to back it up - that does not make it fact. In fact, being the time/distance removed - it will never come out of the realm of "theory". To make a case - in - point, look at Jesus. Here is a guy who is well documented as doing miracles... and only 2k years away from us today. Can I call them "fact" with any credibility (on these forus world. Do I respect your cognative abilities and reasoning skills - Yes. Do I think yoms)? I think not. How then is a supposed event 350 million years ago supposed to be taken any more seriously? (no writen record, no verbal record).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think you're confusing a scientific theory with the colloquial meaning of theory. A scientific theory is a hypothesis that has been rigorously and thoroughly supported by evidence, like the Theory of Gravity. When there is only one scientific theory explaining something, especially one that has been around for 100+ years, then the layman should believe it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In your mind they are "almost proven as fact" - no offence intended, but your mind and your sources are not an ultimate authority in thiu know the answer to humanitys quest for knowlege of God - No.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Cyndane was exaggerating, but you have to admit that there are certain characteristics that are shared between religions.
I don't want to digress, but I can't leave this point unanswered.
Evolution is both a fact and a theory. It is a fact that evolution occurs. There is too much evidence for it not to be true, unless you have some contrived belief that God created all the fossils and made DNA so similiar between every life form. Even so, you have to deal with speciation that has occured during recorded human history.
Evolution is also a theory. The Theory of Evolution is an explanation of how evolution occurs.
I would like to point out I said nothing about evolution in my prior posts.
I was exaggerating correct, and I am more the happy to admit it. :-)
Augh. I'm content to let this sort of idiocy run rampant in one thread, but the second you start spouting off this sort of crap everywhere you go, I guess I'll have to ignore the fact that you're going to cry bias on every source I throw at you and beat this shoddy, half-constructed pipe dream of a worldview you call truth into the ground.
Lets start with a question or two.
1) Is it possible for parallels or similarities to appear between two or more written accounts without the more recent document(s) being established as a fictional "spin-off"?
2) How much similar detail is required in order to establish certainty of a "spin-off", or how little similarity would sufficiently disprove that notion?
I imagine you'll say 'no' to number one, especially in the case of Jesus, Krishna, Osiris, etc. But is this always the case? I'd like to have your answer first, so that when I use it against you later the effect is just that much more potent.
I'm going out for the evening. I can't wait for your response.
Why would stable-thus-far matter or energy simply explode? It's been chillin' in "space" (space didn't really exist, thus the quotes) ... what causes it to go boom?
Does right and wrong exist? Should everyone do as they please? Should everyone do whatever feels good, all the time? What is evil? What is good? Are they obsolete terms? Are we out-growing them as we continue to evolve?
What about demons? Dark forces? Satan? Do these things exist? If not, why not? If so, does this prove the existence of a benevolent twin?
Heh, I guess that turned into ALOT of questions.
~ DarkATi
I don't know. That doesn't mean that we should assume it's God, however. You can even say the same thing about God. If God exists, then who made God?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Why would stable-thus-far matter or energy simply explode? It's been chillin' in "space" (space didn't really exist, thus the quotes) ... what causes it to go boom?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Like novas? We have a decent comprehension of what causes a nova: <a href='http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nova' target='_blank'>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nova</a>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Does right and wrong exist? Should everyone do as they please? Should everyone do whatever feels good, all the time? What is evil? What is good? Are they obsolete terms? Are we out-growing them as we continue to evolve?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm an atheist. I define my moral system by what makes me, or other people, feel good. I've got understandings of good and evil that I have derived from what I've been taught, what my culture believes, and personal examination. Thus, I think that good and evil are mostly relative. I'd say that some variation of the golden rule is the only hard-and-fast rule.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->What about demons? Dark forces? Satan? Do these things exist? If not, why not? If so, does this prove the existence of a benevolent twin?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think they do. I haven't seen any evidence that there is some supernatural evil force (or a good force, for that matter), so I don't believe in one. Just because an evil entity exists, doesn't mean that a good entity exists, and vice versa.
I don't know. That doesn't mean that we should assume it's God, however. You can even say the same thing about God. If God exists, then who made God?
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But frankly, why bother? It is literally impossible to discuss anything that takes place outside the bounds of the universe. In fact that previous sentence is in error because "take place" implies qualities which, as far as we know, only exist within this universe.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Does right and wrong exist? Should everyone do as they please? Should everyone do whatever feels good, all the time? What is evil? What is good? Are they obsolete terms? Are we out-growing them as we continue to evolve?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No. But who says the need to be defined in religious terms? I would contend that they certainly do not.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->What about demons? Dark forces? Satan? Do these things exist? If not, why not? If so, does this prove the existence of a benevolent twin?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again, supernatural beings are, by definition, not bound by the laws of the universe (exist outside it, as it were), and any attempts to discuss such things are ultimately futile.
Thank you skulky, this is the exact point I was trying to make. Discussion on these issues is futile. So, you be the judge, you have a Bible or can get one or can PM me and I'll get you one. This whole discussion bores me.
Believe what you want to believe. End of discussion, me thinks. I'm very tired of Christians trying to persuade non-believers and yet I find myself doing it. Shame on me. The last question I will pose (and this is a legitimate question, not rhetorical or posed to make a point, just a question.) is this:
What if the Bible were true?
~ DarkATi
The universe would cease to exist, of course. There are too many contradictions in the Bible for any system of logic to work. Real logical paradoxes would be present, so 1 could equal 0, so physics wouldn't work, and everything would fall apart. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
"If I am wrong about hell, I have lost nothing. However, lost friend, if you are wrong about hell, you have lost everything!" - Dr. Lee Roberson
"Christianity, if false, is of no importance, and if true, of infinite importance. The only thing it cannot be is moderately important." - C.S Lewis
That's not what I came to post but I'll post that shortly.
Edit: I'll post tomorrow. I think it's time I went to bed. Long day.
Secondly, I am not even going to bother legionaired, you have deemed yourself not even open minded enough to look at links I post and I have only seen one link from you and it was a ministry site, if that isn't biased I don't know what is.
Also, you stated relgioustolerance was biased, really? Here is THEIR mission statement.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
This is a large religious web site which promotes religious freedom, tolerance and diversity as positive cultural values. It contains over 2,800 essays and menus. But it is very different from almost all other religious sites:
We do not promote our own religious beliefs. We can't because we are a multi-faith group. We try to explain the full range of religious belief in North America, from Asatru to Zoroastrianism, including Christianity, Hinduism, Wicca etc.
We try to describe all viewpoints on controversial religious topics objectively and fairly. We cover everything from abortion access to equal rights and protections for homosexuals and bisexuals, including same-sex marriage, and dozens of other "hot" topics.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Other then encyclopedias they are the most unbiased site I have found, for EITHER side.
In addition, you want to know what it would take for me to say something wasn't a spinoff, very simply put, find a document, that predates the Egyptian/Hindu writtings that says Yeshua(Jesus) came to earth. Then I shall concede.
For non-biblical literalists, it can be said that the mythology isn't especially important, but only serves in order to better explain the major concepts, moral stances, and ideas of Christianity. Then, there's not much that you can do to prove this wrong.
Arguing about whether or not religions stole from each other (they obviously have similiar elements, but the main issue you're arguing about is stealing) is interesting, but not particularily meaningful.