What Makes The Fade Hard To Play?

SavantSavant Join Date: 2002-11-30 Member: 10289Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
<div class="IPBDescription">Good fades need not reply... :-)</div> OK folks, as the topic suggests, I want to get input on what people feel makes the fade a hard class to play.

If you don't think the fade is hard to play, that's cool, but I would ask that you NOT post in this thread please. I would also ask that people NOT post comments like "people just need to practise" since that is not what this thread is about either. I'm specifically looking to find what people believe makes the fade a hard class to play. That's all.

As for suggestions, I'd prefer if people didn't get into that. Suggestions usually take a thread off course, and I want to get a better picture of what people think makes the fade hard to play.

So post with your personal experience playing fade, or even your observations of others based on how you have killed fades that played poorly. I hope to use this information to assist in the other thread we have going discussing mid-game balance, but I feel that different people feel the fade has different problems. So before continuing I want to get a better idea of exactly what people feel the problems with the fade are.

I appreciate your responses.

Regards,

Savant
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Comments

  • ChargeCharge Join Date: 2003-02-05 Member: 13144Members
  • Steel_MonkeySteel_Monkey Join Date: 2004-10-06 Member: 32121Members
    I feel that fades are hard to play because of the amount of air control they require. I'm pretty proficient at air control, but I sometimes have trouble blink/metabing around the map while blinking and bunnyhopping.

    I think its hard for beginners because they dont realize how fragile fades are. Most of them don't use blink and walk into combat. I think this is why we see so many walker fades in CO_ maps.

    Finally, I'd like to point out the res investment. Fades cost a ton of res, and if someone new wants to try out fading they will probobly do it in a CO_ map. Here they are likely to use a ton of upgrades which makes fading much easier. When they move into NS_ maps they are going to be severly handicapped, often having to deal with no chambers (in pubs this happens often) and probobly one hive.

    It's probobly discouraging for beginners to get yelled at when they lose 50 res in an ns game. This contributes to them either, going back to CO or not playing fades at all.
  • Rapier7Rapier7 Join Date: 2004-02-05 Member: 26108Members
    Bunnyhopping marines and HMGs.
  • UncleCrunchUncleCrunch Mayonnaise land Join Date: 2005-02-16 Member: 41365Members, Reinforced - Onos
    When you flee you always get your face in some walls... This is due to lags i think. It's like wearing a pullover and try to run in a forest full of bushes.
  • comradecomrade Join Date: 2003-11-30 Member: 23774Members
    edited March 2005
    getting stuck on walls makes the fade hard to play
    hi b1

    but that really does come down to practice?!


    I MEAN Uhh im no newbiefade! in fact i'm VERY GOod but im posting here anyway!!!!
  • Fro5tyFro5ty Join Date: 2003-09-26 Member: 21238Members, Constellation
    I have some how inadvertantly become rather proficent with the fade. Don't ask me how or why, but I just have. That said...

    Fades are a large investment in res, heck, anything in considering how slow the res system can be. That right there keeps many players from fading since it is a HUGE loss for the team if a fade dies. What I think though is that in pubs, people should allow people who haven't faded before to fade with someone whos good at it so they can see how it's done.

    Fades also have the patrol the ENTIRE map essentially. That's a bit area to cover for someone who hasn't gotten much experience with the fade and also, makes knowing the maps inside and out almost a requirement. I personally only prefer to fade on maps such as eclipse, tanith and nothing as well as veil sometimes. I know the main routes marines usually travel, the choke points and areas it's easy to run to if you're taking a beating. Some maps, it IS difficult for even a good fade to play them. The fade requires an unbelievable amount of room to maneuver properly. At times, you may find yourself stuck on walls and other map details while trying to escape, and that's the place where most fades die usually since it's that moment that allows someone to empty thier pistol into you.

    Blink/swipe combo, it's hard to get down at times. A fade can at times blink in and not get a swipe off because they either take too much damage or didn't change attacks soon enough. When it comes to combat as a fade, it is hit and run pretty much all the time. But knowing how to dance around a marine helps too. But there is a certain amount of damage you can take before you have to leave. It's not a known value, just an instinct that I need to leave now, I'm getting shreded. And you HAVE to have nearly all of your armor before you enter a conflict. Quite literally, a dozen points of armor can be what stands between you running to heal and respawning with teeth around your screen. The fade is a rather precise class that isn't easy on mistakes. But a good fade can hold off entire squads of heavy armor marines and make marines feel like they've already lost the game. It just takes a lot of practice, more skill and a pinch of luck to pull one off well. When someone learns to be a good fade on a public server, they'll find that they will most of the time win the game for them.
  • NolSinklerNolSinkler On the Clorf Join Date: 2004-02-15 Member: 26560Members, Constellation
    I'd say that switching between weapons in combat is hardest (like blink, swipe, blink away, blink towards, swipe, blink, metabolize, blink towards again, swipe, kill).

    A skill that I've learned is not bunnyhopping fade to retain speed, but tap blink, and every time you hit the ground, blink again. This way, fade doesn't require the extra hassle of bunnyhopping, also. This usually keeps my energy about full, too.


    BTW, even though I'm a (pretty) skilled fade, I think I followed most of this thread's guidelines.
  • GoldenShadowGoldenShadow Join Date: 2002-04-21 Member: 483Members
    What makes Fade difficult to play? Blink, as it is currently implemented. It makes the fade a flying brick. its very hard to make an escape.
  • Soujiro_SetaSoujiro_Seta Join Date: 2003-08-23 Member: 20133Members
    Shotguns and HMGs.

    I only fade in CO or in NS when we're already winning (3rd hive). I usually put up hive, build chambers and rts, or lame up a hive needing defense. I find I'm becoming better at fading through CO even though I take lots of upgrades. However, I don't find myself going fade at the 4:00 mark in NS anytime soon because I'll probably die.
  • DrummerDrummer Join Date: 2004-02-18 Member: 26654Members
    edited March 2005
    ive currently hit a wall in my fading ability. that wall is metabolize. its a very useful weapon that makes the 2-hive fade very deadly. the problem i have is using it in combat. im a blink junky. i like moving around the map fast so that i can nab rambo marines before they can start putting up res nodes or put a phase gate next to the hive. the problem is, i end up finding a marine with only 1/2 energy, and when i try to escape, i run out and i end up walking a few feet to regain some energy, then blinking around a corner until i can metabolize and replenish my health and energy. i want to be able to metabolize as im scouting the map to keep my energy up, but to also be able to enter combat quickly if i find a marine. i dont want to use scripts because the few ive made and tried feel clunky and unresponsive. nothing ive found so far has worked as good as lastinv. i'd appreciate any suggestions, but at the creators request, dont stray too far from the main topic

    and you cant really say shotguns or hmgs are the reason fades are hard to play. shotguns and hmgs are needed by the marine team because the fades are usually slaughtering the entire marine team and they need to take them down
  • NaoNao Join Date: 2005-03-06 Member: 43684Members
    Information.

    If you know what you're up against and where the enemy is (Scent of Fear), then you'll always know what to do. However, you could always get another, better upgrade (Focus) to perform hit and runs, but that makes Fading somewhat more difficult due to you being more reliant on yourself to perform a blink in and out to figure out what you're up against.

    Also, getting used to crouching while blinking since most Fades do it anyway -- Even though some argue that this takes advantage of the bad hitboxes.
  • digzdigz be still, maggot Join Date: 2002-05-07 Member: 588Members, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
    I think the first obstacle is understanding the role of the fade. The hp/armor to damage it deals, its speed, its abilities etc. Where do they fit in as class?

    Then its applying that knowledge to using the fade. Because initialy using the abilities is a difficult thing, so then you have to go and search through a few faqs/manuals on how to be a better fade. There is so much stress as the resource investment, the learning curve, the time it takes to increase your skills that it forshadows any new fade developments.
  • KwilKwil Join Date: 2003-07-06 Member: 17963Members
    edited March 2005
    The razor's edge.

    A fade needs a huge amount of situational awareness to survive. If they make one mistake in their escape route, their energy left, their range to the marine, their armor/health level, their attack route, their currently chosen attack ability, their target groupings, even the weapons of the marines they're going against they're minced.

    If they can constantly maintain all of those, they're a mincer.

    Skulks can survive without energy. Gorges don't care what weapons the marine has, since they're all just as deadly. Lerks tend not to worry about armor and health terribly because if they're getting hit, they need to leave, period. Onos doesn't care about the attack route, since it's just as easy to smash the crap in the way as go around it.

    Fade needs all of it, and what's more needs to do all of it without a mistake, since any mistake will at best mean no effect on the marines and very likely prove fatal to the fade as well. Given the resource cost, if you don't do it all right the first time, you likely won't get a second chance.

    Part of this comes from having to use blink to get into combat range and having to also use it to escape/survive. They don't have the HP for long engagements, and don't have the speed for short ones unless they have blink.

    On top of all this, the fade also needs the right config -- or at least a config that isn't the default. This can also be an issue for some people who aren't playing on their own computers.

    A 0 hive skulk, gorge, onos, or lerk can still kill a marine if PoD doesn't get them.
    A 0 hive fade is a dead fade. I think that's something worth thinking about.
  • SavantSavant Join Date: 2002-11-30 Member: 10289Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
    This is great stuff folks, keep it coming! <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->

    Regards,

    Savant
  • Cj_the_DjCj_the_Dj Join Date: 2004-03-18 Member: 27398Members
    I'm not really a sucky fade or anything, but one obstacle that was present when i was learning is bhopping, running into walls, and the fades really fast speed makes it hard for a new player to get used to blinking around. Most other mods are just walk-around-and-shoot-whatever. In NS, the speed of a moving player changes dramatically. That takes some getting used to.
  • NecrosisNecrosis The Loquacious Sage Join Date: 2003-08-03 Member: 18828Members, Constellation
    Expensive, crappy handling, people's overhyped opinion of them (which adds stress to the player), so absolutely useless in an endgame vs turtling HA/HMG rines.

    Feel free to try hitting rines in a turreted MS on Tanith, for instance. Its block city. You need xeno skulks to do anything in the endgame.

    At 50 res a shot its pricy, blink for nubs is a one way ticket to hitting a wall, and should you die as a fade your entire team will cut you to ribbons.

    Combine that with the fact that midgame a fade is ESSENTIAL, and you see all the pressures piled onto a pubber fade.

    On a side note, this is largely covered by Grendel's thread.
  • EPcreepEPcreep Join Date: 2004-04-28 Member: 28289Members, Constellation
    because of hi strung people like me. That in ns games if they go early fade without upgrades and die before getting enough res to refade i yell at them.
  • ScrapScrap Join Date: 2005-01-06 Member: 32953Members
    well i think fading is hard because people will want to please there teams and get that 1 marine down and not consentrate on their health.So if they wont get a marine by the first blink-swipe-blink they will start to take risks and probably die by someones lucky shot or lucky block.
  • Lt_PatchLt_Patch Join Date: 2005-02-07 Member: 40286Members
    Personally, I don't find the fade particularly hard to play, however, judging distances at blink speed is difficult, and a fade without Adrenaline is a dead fade. Or a fade that will be walking home...

    Personally, I find SGs and HMGs an annoyance at the best when I'm a fade. Mainly because I play in public games, where most people couldn't hit the broadside of a barn *from the inside*. Every now and again, you will get a player, or even a group of players, that can actually shoot well, or just spray you with enough lead to kill just about everything they are looking at. Thankfully, they are quite rare (in my experience)
  • mr_drug_lordmr_drug_lord Join Date: 2005-01-11 Member: 34836Members
    <!--QuoteBegin-NolSinkler+Mar 26 2005, 01:25 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (NolSinkler @ Mar 26 2005, 01:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'd say that switching between weapons in combat is hardest (like blink, swipe, blink away, blink towards, swipe, blink, metabolize, blink towards again, swipe, kill).

    A skill that I've learned is not bunnyhopping fade to retain speed, but tap blink, and every time you hit the ground, blink again. This way, fade doesn't require the extra hassle of bunnyhopping, also. This usually keeps my energy about full, too.


    BTW, even though I'm a (pretty) skilled fade, I think I followed most of this thread's guidelines. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
  • mr_drug_lordmr_drug_lord Join Date: 2005-01-11 Member: 34836Members
    edited March 2005
    <!--QuoteBegin-Nao+Mar 26 2005, 02:24 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nao @ Mar 26 2005, 02:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Also, getting used to crouching while blinking since most Fades do it anyway -- Even though some argue that this takes advantage of the bad hitboxes. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    if the hitboxes are good, crouching will still be done, and for good reason
  • mr_drug_lordmr_drug_lord Join Date: 2005-01-11 Member: 34836Members
    edited March 2005
    <!--QuoteBegin-Cj the Dj+Mar 26 2005, 03:09 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cj the Dj @ Mar 26 2005, 03:09 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'm not really a sucky fade or anything, but one obstacle that was present when i was learning is bhopping, running into walls, and the fades really fast speed makes it hard for a new player to get used to blinking around. Most other mods are just walk-around-and-shoot-whatever. In NS, the speed of a moving player changes dramatically. That takes some getting used to. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    play non HL games, a lot of them are much faster paced

    also sleep. need to be able to see and imagine, need to be able to think flexibly and fast
  • Lt_PatchLt_Patch Join Date: 2005-02-07 Member: 40286Members
    edited March 2005
    Crouching takes advantage of the fact that a small target is harder to hit, especially if it's moving at the time. Anyone who has fired a gun down a target range will know that, And anyone who has done clay pigeon shooting will sympathise with me that shooting at a moving target, the size of a small plate, is not easy...
  • EvocationEvocation Join Date: 2005-02-10 Member: 40647Members
    Well, it's also utlizing blink for the best efficiency.
    An example is to blink with a slight angle upwards in the air, so the friction of the floor doesn't slow you down that fast (if you're blinking facing the ground).
    And since you can't get a 0 degree angle anyway, (no E-Protractor), you might as well blink slightly up to maximize your energy.

    Another hard part of fading is what happens when you're against two marines that can dodge a bit. Blinking straight up to one marine, having him sidestep and glide jump around you, and you just walking, turning in circles, swiping blindly won't work. When you blink in, you have to remember that the opponent is moving as well, so anticipation of his movements is key. And after your first blink, if you blink past him, remember which way he was moving when you swiped him, or if you can't, blink back, get some breathing distance, and try again.

    A very simple evasive trick with fade is to blink upwards. It's harder to hit something in the air than it is on the ground, mainly because the marine will repeatedly adjust his/her aim to hit you.

    Finally, the fade must learn when to run. And how to run as well, when to turn into a corner and such.


    I'm no mad haxor fade, but doing the above has really improved myself as fade.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Join Date: 2003-11-28 Member: 23688
    im really used to the fade now, its my best class, but heres what i found hard when i was learning the fade, the hardest part was having to do so much at once (no scripts)

    as others have said the fade has to have a great sence of awareness, they have to know whats going on around them without actually seeing it, so they can make a quick escape.

    while your thinking of the above, its also time consuming to learn to blink/swipe/blink/meta as quickly as possible, while moving, turning and thinking at the same time.
  • SandstormSandstorm Join Date: 2003-09-25 Member: 21205Members
    I think the best way for people to learn how to Fade is to practice leap/biting as a Skulk. I don't mean just leaping at the Marine holding down bite, I mean actually leaping around the Marine, dodging their bullets, while getting your bites in. The most important thing is, to survive the encounter.

    If you can easily kill Marines with Shotguns and HMGs as a puny little leaping Skulk, surely you'll have a chance as a Fade that can take 6 times the damage.
  • EvocationEvocation Join Date: 2005-02-10 Member: 40647Members
    I don't think you learn that much with fade as a skulk, mainly because you are a skulk, with 4 times lower hp, and much lower armor. Second, the marine doesn't think highly of a skulk when he has an hmg and sg, while he'll think differently when facing a fade. It's not the same, you'll learn to quickswitch in and out, but don't go trying to practice fade while leaping. Practice fade as fade, practice skulk as skulk.
  • EvocationEvocation Join Date: 2005-02-10 Member: 40647Members
    edited March 2005
  • SavantSavant Join Date: 2002-11-30 Member: 10289Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
    Let's try and get back on track though please... Remember, I'm not looking for practice tips here, I'm looking to find out what people feel is too hard/too much effort in playing the fade to the point where they tend to avoid playing fade. This can include social pressures, but I'm more looking for issues direcly linked to the fade class itself.

    Regards,

    Savant
  • HazeHaze O RLY? Join Date: 2003-07-07 Member: 18018Members, Constellation
    I think the core thing for most players is how much you have to switch weapons and simply micromanage the fade. Blink in, swipe, blink out, metabolize for a second, blink again, somtimes its too overwhelming for some players.

    Other times its just controling blink. Often its difficult for some players to blink in directally to where they need to be, and they miss that sweet spot, resulting in either a frantic scramble towards the door with an innaccurate blink in the panic, or a scramble towards the enemy, where you are a slow moving target.

    Thats basically all I can see.
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