I don't think going as far as 'electing' a new head is what needs to be n'or realistic. As far as I know, The current admins appoint new admins. It's not really democratic, wether or not it should be dosen't matter. What matters (to me anyways) is that people see the case on both sides, and <i>know</i> that i havent had a fair trial. According to CAL there is no trial, but as you can see that leads to problems. Especially in cases like mine, and yumosis. If anything needs to be done, I think Hsu needs to say something, and our cases should be open for evaluation. If not by the public then by a 'jury.' I just want some closure...Wether or not people want a new head, I don't think it's a possibility at this point, furthermore, like Ruterbox said, Hsu has done much for the competitive community as far as CAL goes.
EDIT:
As far as Mosis's case, his bans up already. So even if it was re-open'd it wouldn't really matter...It would still make a interesting discussion though.
<!--QuoteBegin-amnesiac+Apr 5 2005, 11:58 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (amnesiac @ Apr 5 2005, 11:58 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I just want some closure... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You have closure, it's called your one year ban.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> yes, and thats why admins usually are very careful with bans... they cant ban to the right and to the left, that doesnt work... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Do you have anything to back that up? Sure not alot of people have been banned from the NS division, but it's not like there is a whole lot of teams anyways. According to my case and maybe even Mosis, they <i>could</i> ban anyone they want at anytime. Case closed. And I think that's where the problem is.
<!--QuoteBegin-Albino+Apr 5 2005, 03:03 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Albino @ Apr 5 2005, 03:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-amnesiac+Apr 5 2005, 11:58 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (amnesiac @ Apr 5 2005, 11:58 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I just want some closure... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You have closure, it's called your one year ban. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> No, that's not closure. That's action taken by Hsu based on the loopy rules and inconclusive evidence. Closure for me, is when Hsu tells me <i>what</i> exactly it is i'm banned for, and show me some proof of it. I don't care about the rest of this drama, infact I wouldn't have even brought this to forums if Hsu would just talk to me. Apparently he's far too busy to deal with it though. Edit: Don't quote CAL and tell me 'illegal use of 3rd party programs.'
You were banned, you shouldnt have dled and used those hacks, in any other part of cal, cal-cs cal-dod they dont have these problems, obviously cal found something that was enough evidence to ban you, maybe your buddy arc turned in that demo before he "reformatted" his computer. Come back in a year
<!--QuoteBegin-Anderval+Apr 5 2005, 01:45 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Anderval @ Apr 5 2005, 01:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> so, why hasn't Hsu replied yet? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> What exactly is Hsu going to say? Everything he could have said has been said by myself, lynx, or digz.
<!--QuoteBegin-Anderval+Apr 5 2005, 04:45 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Anderval @ Apr 5 2005, 04:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> so, why hasn't Hsu replied yet? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Hsu deleted a similar thread in the CAL-ns forums as soon as views against him and Photek's logs sprang up. The ban has no basis and Hsu himself knows this. Had he the confidence and evidence to back up his decision, this would have been over long ago. As it has been suggested before, someone needs to release an .avi of this supposed demo that Hsu has based his claims upon.
I'm not going to lie, I'm really starting to lose faith in the AC capabilities of the current CAL admins (something happened yesterday which I shall not elaborate on but was ridiculous at best). <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I must admit that I’m not a part of the competitive scene but in my past I played competitive in other games. I don’t know if the bans are fairly but insinuations in this thread like that the CAL-NS admins are biased in this case are very short-sighted. League admins have other things in mind if they have to verify such a case and if such evidences get verified by more persons the result is funded enough – at least for a league. Sure there’s always the possibility that they may be not guilty using 3rd party programs for their advantage but likely they are. There will be never such thing like a trial for such cases and changing the staff wouldn’t solve the problem. As the screenshot on page #1 show, not the CAL-NS admins are the problem, but parts of the competitive scene are. And such discussion about such cases is pretty useless as seen in this thread. Most of the posters don’t know anything detailed about that case – but have an opinion about it. And there are always lame excuses if someone get caught cheating. Only a minority admit it.
That reminds me of a cheat case of obvious aimbot usage by a known clan member on my server. Also because of this significant case I got it cross-checked by 3 other persons (1 neutral and 2 of the ns competitive ns scene) and they confirmed it. It got public (not by me) and nothing happens. He stayed at his clan. He stayed in the staff of a German community site. His e-friends saw nothing special at the demos. Sorry but I can only laugh at such a “competitive” scene.
Sarisel.::' ( O ) ';:-. .-.:;' ( O ) '::.Join Date: 2003-07-30Member: 18557Members, Constellation
It really doesn't matter if you think photek cheated or not. All you're doing is taking sides. The fact is that this is a very questionable case and it needs to be investigated. It featured admins that were playing on teams that were participating in the league at the same time, just like in mosis's case.
You can easily reproduce the screenshot on the first page by recording a demo of yourself and then editing your settings. It isn't a big problem. Stop using that as though it has any relevance whatsoever.
People can be corrupt. CAL admins are not perfect either, because they are people. Stop living in a dream world where everybody is righteous has great integrity.
I admit, the admins have done a good job over the past few seasons in terms of running the league - except for AC work. That's what this is all about. There do not have to be major changes made to the league unless an investigation shows there to be reason to do so. If the investigation shows that the admins acted rightly, then that would settle it.
However, as things are now it doesn't matter whether you think one party is right or the other is right - because there is insufficient evidence to mark one side of the argument.
<!--QuoteBegin-ChimpZealot+Apr 5 2005, 03:53 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (ChimpZealot @ Apr 5 2005, 03:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> What exactly is Hsu going to say? Everything he could have said has been said by myself, lynx, or digz. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> So in otherwords nothing?
They banned him for hacking. Can you prove he dint? Does CAL ever release demos? Does that mean they dont have evidence? Are you flipping morons?
Why didnt all you guys stand up for <span style='color:orange'>person</span> when he got banned, or stand up for <span style='color:orange'>person</span>, or now <span style='color:orange'>person</span>?
And if you have not noticed, almost all of the people who are defending him have quit ns or are players that have nothing to do with cal.
<span style='color:orange'>As Ive posted before, we are not to mention names regarding hacking. Please see CAL for details referring to their bans.</span>
Grahf the whole point of the justice system is to prove someone guilty and not the other way around. As for proving himself innocent he can't really do that as all he has is his word and no one seems to care. All I want to see is evidence so I have something conclusive to prove that someone is indeed a cheater. I don't believe everything that someone else says just because they stated it as facts, especially when their sole argument is not giving one.
I DON'T KNOW MAYBE I'M JUST CRAZY OR SOMETHING AND THIS DOESN'T MAKE SENSE TO ANYONE ELSE.
Sarisel.::' ( O ) ';:-. .-.:;' ( O ) '::.Join Date: 2003-07-30Member: 18557Members, Constellation
<!--QuoteBegin-Grahf+Apr 5 2005, 06:50 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Grahf @ Apr 5 2005, 06:50 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> They banned him for hacking. Can you prove he dint? Does CAL ever release demos? Does that mean they dont have evidence? Are you flipping morons? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's the circumstances surrounding the ban that make it suspicious. Follow along a bit and maybe you might notice it. Photek wasn't banned immediately, although he was interviewed by Hsu about cheating accusations. CAL admins that participated in the bannings include Hsu and Josh, both of which play in teams - particularly Josh who played for Co::, which in turn played against xen which photek was a part of.
1. Photek was not banned immediately. 2. Since being banned he has not been able to get an audience with the CAL admins regarding his ban. 3. There have been a lot of rumours surrounding the reasons behind the ban: ranging from something as stupid as setinfo pigeon to aimboting to black walls. There has not been any consistency. November 2003's ban was also very much alike with <a href='http://caleague.com/old/?page=comments&&div=natsl&type=news&id=3816&pagenum=4' target='_blank'>vague descriptions</a>.
This ban has been even more vague and the CAL admins have not responded to appeals by the player of his innocence. Now if that doesn't strike you odd, I don't know what else can. Like I said, it seems personal - not professional.
It isn't enough to say that CAL reserves the right to act without explaining itself. It isn't really a fair system if the player is indeed innocent and CAL doesn't do anything about it. If you don't stand up for such a player, no matter how much you might dislike him and/or his actions, then when it's your turn to fall victim to the same trap you will have nothing to say - just like him.
No it wont, get a grip. There is not going to be some peasant revolt coup d'etat. CAL-NS will not die because it banned photek, even if they are PROVEN in the wrong. In fact, I don't think that it will lose one player, (besides the banned ones) over this.
<!--QuoteBegin-Router Box+Apr 6 2005, 08:38 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Router Box @ Apr 6 2005, 08:38 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> No it wont, get a grip. There is not going to be some peasant revolt coup d'etat. CAL-NS will not die because it banned photek, even if they are PROVEN in the wrong. In fact, I don't think that it will lose one player, (besides the banned ones) over this. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> It still isn't nessicarly a good thing to be banning more or less innocent players none the less. Most people will ignore it as long as it doesn't directly effect them, but if irrational/overly swift bans become epidemic, public opinion will begin to shift... A few poorly managed bans will not be the end of CAL, no, but they are still frustrating for the players who get them to say the least. On the other side of the fence however, almost ANY evidence transfered over the internet can be highly doctored. CAL has to be able to MAKE bans, they can't simply let everyone who is most likely hacking play because it can't be proved positive. Really, there just needs to be some trust in the compedtive comunity that the CAL people are doing thier best to manage things fairly. Even if they were to release evidence it could still be easily refuted.
One way or another there will be spilt opinions, do you really belive that can be changed?
The way people are talking its like bans should be done by a public poll. Or there should be some sort of committee to babysit the admins. Get a grip, its none of your business. The admins have a job, and they are doing it as they see fit. By not discussing the bans or elaborating on them, or releasing the evidence, they are following the organizations operational policies. THEY ARE DOING THEIR JOBS.
I don't have a problem with the league having admins that do the things admins do. Honestly, Photek was on shaky ground with hacks to begin with. Not to mention he was caught using a ringer in a match. He's not very reputable. Those logs don't change any of that.
The point of concern, if there is any about the admins, should be the slack that xen got. If anything it looks like the admins we're too lenient in the events leading up to the ban.
The amount of complaints that CAL-NS receives is pretty high. If they weren't judicious, and flippantly threw bans around, you would have seen mountains of bans instead of what, the 4 there have ever been.
Is it POSSIBLE that Photek MAY not have ever hacked in a scrim or match, and is in fact a clean player? Perhaps, it is possible. But think about this. If the admins aren't releasing or talking about evidence, there could very well be more than photek knows about. There could be much more than was discussed in those logs.
If they had something substantial, damning, and conclusive, we wouldn't know. I'm assuming that they do. I'm willing to believe the admins, who have been mentioned in this thread as being awesome, over the alleged cheater.
Minstrel_KnightThe truth and nothing but the truth...Join Date: 2002-11-21Member: 9562Banned
So Photek himself somehow doesn't know about what possible evidence there might be to support his banning? Did he forget whether or not he cheated in a scrim/match or are you suggesting that someone faked the evidence?
The fact is you can have "conclusive" evidence that anyone you want is cheating with five minutes of work, which makes a star chamber court system even more ludicrous.
Just remember the cheating doesn't have to be in a scrim or match. It can be lan / pub / in his mothers bedroom. Can't believe there is still a discussion going over this :/ Past is past. He'll either buy a new cd key, join another clan with a different name and we'll never know. Or just play another game.
Also remember if anyone has a demo of him from after May 2001 of him hacking in TFC or CS can also institute a ban. Now once I hit my add reply button i'll go downstairs make a Tuna Fish sandwitch and then come back and see more drama.
<span style='color:orange'>Indeed, so unless this topic is going to magicaly serve some kind of purpose beyond what has already been said, discussed, or whined about I feel its headed towards the magical lock option.</span>
<span style='color:red'>Do you think that comment was appropriate?</span>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Alright if we're banning pub hackers please get right on this one for me. Lets not have biased and inconsistent enforcement of the rules here.
Minstrel_KnightThe truth and nothing but the truth...Join Date: 2002-11-21Member: 9562Banned
<!--QuoteBegin-DuoGodOfDeath+Apr 6 2005, 01:05 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DuoGodOfDeath @ Apr 6 2005, 01:05 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Alright if we're banning pub hackers please get right on this one for me. Lets not have biased and inconsistent enforcement of the rules here.
Pretty sure Hsu said they only ban people if they are in CAL. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Perhaps you missed the part that the steamid of the player in that demo is Hsu's.
Comments
I was thinking Magitek or Keyser.
EDIT:
As far as Mosis's case, his bans up already. So even if it was re-open'd it wouldn't really matter...It would still make a interesting discussion though.
You have closure, it's called your one year ban.
yes, and thats why admins usually are very careful with bans...
they cant ban to the right and to the left, that doesnt work... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Do you have anything to back that up? Sure not alot of people have been banned from the NS division, but it's not like there is a whole lot of teams anyways. According to my case and maybe even Mosis, they <i>could</i> ban anyone they want at anytime. Case closed. And I think that's where the problem is.
You have closure, it's called your one year ban. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, that's not closure. That's action taken by Hsu based on the loopy rules and inconclusive evidence. Closure for me, is when Hsu tells me <i>what</i> exactly it is i'm banned for, and show me some proof of it. I don't care about the rest of this drama, infact I wouldn't have even brought this to forums if Hsu would just talk to me. Apparently he's far too busy to deal with it though.
Edit: Don't quote CAL and tell me 'illegal use of 3rd party programs.'
Come back in a year
What exactly is Hsu going to say? Everything he could have said has been said by myself, lynx, or digz.
Hsu deleted a similar thread in the CAL-ns forums as soon as views against him and Photek's logs sprang up. The ban has no basis and Hsu himself knows this. Had he the confidence and evidence to back up his decision, this would have been over long ago.
As it has been suggested before, someone needs to release an .avi of this supposed demo that Hsu has based his claims upon.
I don’t know if the bans are fairly but insinuations in this thread like that the CAL-NS admins are biased in this case are very short-sighted. League admins have other things in mind if they have to verify such a case and if such evidences get verified by more persons the result is funded enough – at least for a league.
Sure there’s always the possibility that they may be not guilty using 3rd party programs for their advantage but likely they are.
There will be never such thing like a trial for such cases and changing the staff wouldn’t solve the problem. As the screenshot on page #1 show, not the CAL-NS admins are the problem, but parts of the competitive scene are.
And such discussion about such cases is pretty useless as seen in this thread. Most of the posters don’t know anything detailed about that case – but have an opinion about it. And there are always lame excuses if someone get caught cheating. Only a minority admit it.
That reminds me of a cheat case of obvious aimbot usage by a known clan member on my server. Also because of this significant case I got it cross-checked by 3 other persons (1 neutral and 2 of the ns competitive ns scene) and they confirmed it. It got public (not by me) and nothing happens. He stayed at his clan. He stayed in the staff of a German community site. His e-friends saw nothing special at the demos. Sorry but I can only laugh at such a “competitive” scene.
You can easily reproduce the screenshot on the first page by recording a demo of yourself and then editing your settings. It isn't a big problem. Stop using that as though it has any relevance whatsoever.
People can be corrupt. CAL admins are not perfect either, because they are people. Stop living in a dream world where everybody is righteous has great integrity.
I admit, the admins have done a good job over the past few seasons in terms of running the league - except for AC work. That's what this is all about. There do not have to be major changes made to the league unless an investigation shows there to be reason to do so. If the investigation shows that the admins acted rightly, then that would settle it.
However, as things are now it doesn't matter whether you think one party is right or the other is right - because there is insufficient evidence to mark one side of the argument.
So in otherwords nothing?
Why didnt all you guys stand up for <span style='color:orange'>person</span> when he got banned, or stand up for <span style='color:orange'>person</span>, or now <span style='color:orange'>person</span>?
And if you have not noticed, almost all of the people who are defending him have quit ns or are players that have nothing to do with cal.
<span style='color:orange'>As Ive posted before, we are not to mention names regarding hacking. Please see CAL for details referring to their bans.</span>
I DON'T KNOW MAYBE I'M JUST CRAZY OR SOMETHING AND THIS DOESN'T MAKE SENSE TO ANYONE ELSE.
It's the circumstances surrounding the ban that make it suspicious. Follow along a bit and maybe you might notice it. Photek wasn't banned immediately, although he was interviewed by Hsu about cheating accusations. CAL admins that participated in the bannings include Hsu and Josh, both of which play in teams - particularly Josh who played for Co::, which in turn played against xen which photek was a part of.
1. Photek was not banned immediately.
2. Since being banned he has not been able to get an audience with the CAL admins regarding his ban.
3. There have been a lot of rumours surrounding the reasons behind the ban: ranging from something as stupid as setinfo pigeon to aimboting to black walls. There has not been any consistency. November 2003's ban was also very much alike with <a href='http://caleague.com/old/?page=comments&&div=natsl&type=news&id=3816&pagenum=4' target='_blank'>vague descriptions</a>.
This ban has been even more vague and the CAL admins have not responded to appeals by the player of his innocence. Now if that doesn't strike you odd, I don't know what else can. Like I said, it seems personal - not professional.
It isn't enough to say that CAL reserves the right to act without explaining itself. It isn't really a fair system if the player is indeed innocent and CAL doesn't do anything about it. If you don't stand up for such a player, no matter how much you might dislike him and/or his actions, then when it's your turn to fall victim to the same trap you will have nothing to say - just like him.
It still isn't nessicarly a good thing to be banning more or less innocent players none the less. Most people will ignore it as long as it doesn't directly effect them, but if irrational/overly swift bans become epidemic, public opinion will begin to shift... A few poorly managed bans will not be the end of CAL, no, but they are still frustrating for the players who get them to say the least. On the other side of the fence however, almost ANY evidence transfered over the internet can be highly doctored. CAL has to be able to MAKE bans, they can't simply let everyone who is most likely hacking play because it can't be proved positive. Really, there just needs to be some trust in the compedtive comunity that the CAL people are doing thier best to manage things fairly. Even if they were to release evidence it could still be easily refuted.
One way or another there will be spilt opinions, do you really belive that can be changed?
I don't have a problem with the league having admins that do the things admins do. Honestly, Photek was on shaky ground with hacks to begin with. Not to mention he was caught using a ringer in a match. He's not very reputable. Those logs don't change any of that.
The point of concern, if there is any about the admins, should be the slack that xen got. If anything it looks like the admins we're too lenient in the events leading up to the ban.
The amount of complaints that CAL-NS receives is pretty high. If they weren't judicious, and flippantly threw bans around, you would have seen mountains of bans instead of what, the 4 there have ever been.
Is it POSSIBLE that Photek MAY not have ever hacked in a scrim or match, and is in fact a clean player? Perhaps, it is possible. But think about this. If the admins aren't releasing or talking about evidence, there could very well be more than photek knows about. There could be much more than was discussed in those logs.
If they had something substantial, damning, and conclusive, we wouldn't know. I'm assuming that they do. I'm willing to believe the admins, who have been mentioned in this thread as being awesome, over the alleged cheater.
The fact is you can have "conclusive" evidence that anyone you want is cheating with five minutes of work, which makes a star chamber court system even more ludicrous.
Past is past. He'll either buy a new cd key, join another clan with a different name and we'll never know. Or just play another game.
Also remember if anyone has a demo of him from after May 2001 of him hacking in TFC or CS can also institute a ban. Now once I hit my add reply button i'll go downstairs make a Tuna Fish sandwitch and then come back and see more drama.
<a href='http://home.comcast.net/~david.fisher/hsuhacker.rar' target='_blank'>Click</a>
<span style='color:orange'>Indeed, so unless this topic is going to magicaly serve some kind of purpose beyond what has already been said, discussed, or whined about I feel its headed towards the magical lock option.</span>
<span style='color:red'>Do you think that comment was appropriate?</span>
Click<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Pretty sure Hsu said they only ban people if they are in CAL.
Click<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Pretty sure Hsu said they only ban people if they are in CAL. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Perhaps you missed the part that the steamid of the player in that demo is Hsu's.