<!--QuoteBegin-Swiftspear+Apr 4 2005, 07:06 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Swiftspear @ Apr 4 2005, 07:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The red fixture thing doesn't work. Put a JP in a vent with a fixture like that and he can camp the vent indefintaely, <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, he could do...however he also wouldn't be doing much if he did. If he's camping the vent but can't actually see anything to spawn kill it then he's no longer detrimental to the overall fun of the game. If he spawn camps in a vent where he has no line of sight then it'll be a long and lonley game for him unless a stupid alien team needlessly tries to go after him when he's ultimately causing no damage.
I mean I'm not claiming my ideas are the solution to this, but I think these issues with jpers in Co need to be addressed to maintain it as a fun aside to classic. As XCan has said, things have changed in classic maps for the same reason, and it is less needed in ns than in co!
<!--QuoteBegin-Mendasp+Apr 4 2005, 11:40 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mendasp @ Apr 4 2005, 11:40 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Anyways, what I meant is... we're mappers, just that. "Co mappers" sounds pretty bad to me (just read any thread about combat in these forums and you'll understand why), it's that simple, no need to "read between the lines because english is great as first language" (lol thaldarin). And if you want an answer for that vent thing... I was considering it when creating it, but when it was passed to the consties for testing it didn't seem like a big issue, I remember it being mentioned in a feedback thread a few times, though...
Adding a Sat-like block for the vent would help, I could add that in the next version, if that's fine with everyone. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well it wasn't intended as a "Co mappers" kind of thing, merely stating the literal sense of things, you know? Mappers of Co Maps <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Thanks for the reasoned response now Mendasp. Apologies for any offense caused
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'd make a public feedback thread for sava, but there's many people that would reply stupid stuff like: "LOL WHAT'S CO LOL OMG I R WITTY MAKEING THEASE DEROAGTORY COMMENTS ABOUT A GAMEMODE I DONT LIEK".<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-niaccurshi+Apr 5 2005, 12:39 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (niaccurshi @ Apr 5 2005, 12:39 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> some kind of "shield" <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Generally in Sava that's a big square crate.
One way to solve the vent issue could be something like you see in faceoff. In the vents on either side of the hive, the floor is a ramp. When an alien gets in the vent and attacks the marine, the marine can't dodge the alien easily, because he has to fall to the bottom of the ramp before he can run away. Therefore, the alien can catch him easily.
On pulse (or godforbid, daimos), the marine is in a regular vent, so he can just jetpack backwards quickly, making it difficult for any alien to catch him.
Also, I actually think the new sava is really nice.
If it isn't broke don't fix it. Come on, you can't really say those vents are that much of a problem. If a jper is camping one of those vents and hitting the hive then it is pretty obvious right where they are, you can't honestly tell me that out of an entire team of aliens nobody can kill 1 lone marine when you know exactly where he is sitting. If that is the case then the alien team deserves to lose.
i agree with theclam, try to make the vents in sava like the ones in faceoff. they have little things that break up the vent from being one long shot for the jp'er to defend himself in. just throw in a few turns in the vent or something so that skulks can take out that jp a little easier. other than that, sava seems pretty good mendasp, just ignore the negative people, you've taken enough abuse on these forums
edit: also, the openings of the vents are kinda small, makes getting in there as a fade kinda hard
That's very true, Grendel...assuming the vent is at an adequate height to acid rocket all the way to the end of the first turn...and assuming someone on the team fades and uses 2 levels to get acid rocket instead of a couple more really useful upgrades for killing stuff elsewhere <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Anyway, I really agree with theclams point he made. I hope this has raised some awareness to those making CO maps as to the general lack of fun caused by having to exert so much energy in what is essentially a "fun deathmatch mode" to kill jpers.
I have to agree with this one. Besides the argument that it is "not fun," vents are usually the domain of the alien team! In classic, you will rarely - if ever - see marines going into the vents and using those to get into a hive. They rely on the tactics of grouping together and out-shooting the aliens. Why should the tactics in CO be so different? Even though it's more independent, teams still should have to work together - one person getting a welder to heal the structures, one person with Scan, etc. - and the team going together to keep from getting picked off.
The best CO map I think I've ever played is that one where the marine start had three Armories and that bunker for shooting out at the aliens, and the alien hive had only ONE vent leading into the hive and the hive was "enclosed" by walls. HAs could seriously dominate and break into that hive, but the JPers were almost always toast. It was a refreshing change from the regular CO map where 40-60% of the team had to constantly rush the vents to weed out the ONE marine who had a JP + GL or HMG. When one member of the other team can, entirely on their own, completely preoccupy 50% of the other team for a period of more than 1-2 minutes, there's a serious problem.
The "lids" on vents would certainly help. Shielding the hive in a less open area would be even better, at least on a portion of the maps so that JP isn't the obvious upgrade of choice for everyone. JPers shouldn't be given this level of virtual invulnerability - all paths should, to a certain extent, be viable.
Fact: Marines are already having an insane time trying to win in combat. They have to dominate for the first few minutes to get around level 5 each, and spawn camp to have an easy chance to win.
The moment the aliens get 2 levels, for lerk sporing, or focus, heck even leap and cloak, the marines are going to have losses in every engagement. Once the aliens get 3 levels, fades and xeno appear, and marines begin to be locked into base.
Once the aliens get 4 levels, the 1st onos appears, and a web gorge can be obtained. Granted, the onos will suck without upgrades, but in hive defence, it is king. On most CO maps, the onos can block vents with its sheer size, block visual to the hive and in many maps with low ceilings, it can just jump and gore any JPer flying around without a problem.
By comparison, a 4 level marine can get JP, but with no resupply and only a L0 LMG.
GL clears webs, yes, but omg, REWEB! It's really funny when marines attempt some coordination, GL away the webs, and scream GOGOGO. Unfortunately, the gorge rewebs in the process and the 3 offending JPs fall from the sky and are gored / eaten / swiped / bitten.
Spread the webs around too, to cover the vents and entrances. Most GLs fire near the hive, so don't place too many webs there. Why do you need 5 webs at the hive itself, when just 2 will suffice to interdict the area?
for e.g. co_faceoff, the vents do not have a clear view of the hive, but do provide a view of the hive room, which it is claimed allows JPs to lame respawning skulks. However, if you make the vents a la nancy, a fade or onos can just wait under the vent when they hear a JP or see it on SoF, making it utterly useless.
Considering foot marines will never make it to the hive on foot by this stage, JP is their only viable alternative. This kind of vents already make them deathtraps.
And talk of long vents that marines can retreat behind is a joke. It'll work against skulks yes, but by the time a JPer is on the scene, 1/4 to 1/2 the alien team should be a fade.
You can blink faster than a marine can jet backwards and swipe the bugger. Many vents have space for 2 models, so blink BEHIND the JPer so he can't shoot you and swipe from there.
A vanilla fade can survive 4 blasts from a shotgun, but you only need 3 swipes to kill the JPer. Chances are though, the fade might die. But once you get carapace, there is no way the JPer can get 7 shotgun blasts on you to kill you in the time for 3 swipes. And even if the fade DOES die, the JPer has to assault the hive with no armour, and prey to xeno / focus, doing NO damage to the hive.
GL? 4 direct GL hits won't kill a fade, 100% no kill if with cara. HMG might have a chance, but just blink to the side or behind.
And the marines have problems jetting through some of these vents.
e.g. faceoff, The vents have some elevation midway through them, so marines jet all the way behind, get stuck on the ledge or jet upwards, and the fade or skulk follows. And everyone knows aiming directly up or down is hard for marines.
e.g. pulse, same thing, differing elevation. And in pulse it's even better because each vent has 3 points of entry, some of them near the hive. So just backstab the JPer.
Just remember, it's very easy to counter the JPs, but once you remove vent access in this way, marines have almost no chance of winning on CO. Barring a rework of CO to give marines some fighting power, this small change will make CO unplayable for marines.
And for the timelimits of 20 and above, why are you playing at that time limit? The official is 15, and it is more than enough.
<!--QuoteBegin-MistenTH+Apr 8 2005, 02:01 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MistenTH @ Apr 8 2005, 02:01 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Fact: Marines are already having an insane time trying to win in combat. They have to dominate for the first few minutes to get around level 5 each, and spawn camp to have an easy chance to win. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's not the issue at hand, and if anything if marines have to win by JP's then there is a severe balance issue that is needed to be addressed anyway. That's no case for keeping in a fun destroying aspect of the game because it's the only way they're going to have any chance at winning.
Plus I love all the on paper explaination on why <b>what is happening on co servers should never happen but for some reason still does every day</b> <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I think moving the vents is just whats needed, And the thing about aliens going fade and marines getting locked in base, it can be the other way around too. Marine gets two levels, and gets shotgun (Really easy to do of course.) Shotgun costs the same as focus, but since it's pro is close-medium quarters, it negates a skulk pretty easily. In the hands of a semi-skilled player, you can't really die from a skulk unless hes cloaking with focus, which is three points. Better yet, Either team can win, but now that aliens have to evolve, and require one person to stay as a gorge to heal the hive, its really easy for a marine to spam kills from a vent. its like on faceoff, if you die as an alien, you have to evolve, and marine JPers beeline for the hive whenever they can, so your only lucky if that marine doesent catch you when your evolving, or healing the hive for that matter.
If Aliens didnt have to evolve, and gorges had alittle more health, then the marine vent camping thing wouldnt be so bad. But the requirement to constantly remove marines from vents is not fun, nor entertaining. A fade would have to sit in base all day waiting for a jper to come so he can chase him around for the next minute.
Just move the vents out of hive range, sheesh. I dunno what map it is, but its the one that has a vent thats five feet off the ground, with an overhang above it. You can still kill people on the floor, but the raised hive prevents jpers from spamming the hive from it.
CO is just imbalanced in general, and maps make it worse. Examples:
new Daimos -- welded PG basically = gg Niveus -- worst hiveroom for aliens in any map Sava -- 2 vents next to hive is a JP shelter and alien death trap
There are some good maps out there where games could go either way...like faceoff and pulse. Mappers should take note <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-bmdavll+Apr 8 2005, 08:32 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (bmdavll @ Apr 8 2005, 08:32 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> CO is just imbalanced in general, and maps make it worse. Examples:
new Daimos -- welded PG basically = gg Niveus -- worst hiveroom for aliens in any map Sava -- 2 vents next to hive is a JP shelter and alien death trap
There are some good maps out there where games could go either way...like faceoff and pulse. Mappers should take note <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> From that I got small maps > large maps.
Marines need all the help they can get in CO games, its so alien baised you'd have to be a fool not to notice it. Let jetpackers own the vents, it requires an HMG/JP anyhow to control a vent as a JP... thats at least lv. 9. Marines deserve a big advantage at that level as far as the real world is concerned.
if, even as a lvl 7 combat fade (if your not lvl 7 by the time marines get jp/sg then you DESERVE TO LOSE) cannot kill jpers in a vent, then you have some serious fading problems. 1 lerk with spore to strip their armor. fade, swipre, swipe, ding. seriously. it really is that simple. and even if your having problems with thjper's. quite simple. you wait them out. keep sporing them, they'll eventually get fed up. and if they dont, GG. its just a matter of patience.
<b>It's not about controlling the vent, just using it enough to be a complete and utter annoyance to the fun factor of the game</b>
Not everyone fades and on public servers that are the domain of the co games, not even half the fades are any good. Refer to the mid game balance thread for more on that.
Marines need a boost in OTHER area's, not an excuse to keep a fun killing aspect because of their weakness.
Remove jetpacks and give the marines stealth suits because cloaking is cool and fun. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
god knows what they can get that'll give them back some playability though, it's a shame that most servers these days seem to increase the timelimit to something stupid. Lots of "aliens fragwhoring" and screaming "why did you kill the CC?!". But allowing jpers to be the only option, and be a main source of fun destroying for both sides is not the way to go about that balance.
Maybe they're not using it to destroy your fun. I played combat on co_niveus today, and I'll tell ya, the only way I could kill one of those regen/cara/metabolize/cele fades was in a vent. It makes all your bullets guarenteed to hit. I'ld say it's a good tactic.
Comments
Yes, he could do...however he also wouldn't be doing much if he did. If he's camping the vent but can't actually see anything to spawn kill it then he's no longer detrimental to the overall fun of the game. If he spawn camps in a vent where he has no line of sight then it'll be a long and lonley game for him unless a stupid alien team needlessly tries to go after him when he's ultimately causing no damage.
I mean I'm not claiming my ideas are the solution to this, but I think these issues with jpers in Co need to be addressed to maintain it as a fun aside to classic. As XCan has said, things have changed in classic maps for the same reason, and it is less needed in ns than in co!
Adding a Sat-like block for the vent would help, I could add that in the next version, if that's fine with everyone. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well it wasn't intended as a "Co mappers" kind of thing, merely stating the literal sense of things, you know? Mappers of Co Maps <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Thanks for the reasoned response now Mendasp. Apologies for any offense caused
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'd make a public feedback thread for sava, but there's many people that would reply stupid stuff like: "LOL WHAT'S CO LOL OMG I R WITTY MAKEING THEASE DEROAGTORY COMMENTS ABOUT A GAMEMODE I DONT LIEK".<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, they're great for the community.
Generally in Sava that's a big square crate.
Generally in Sava that's a big square crate. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Thaldarin+Apr 5 2005, 12:12 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Thaldarin @ Apr 5 2005, 12:12 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> No need to explain. 99% of people understand and think that, some people are just out to argue <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<span style='color:orange'>*snip*</span>
Generally in Sava that's a big square crate. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, it totally ruined the map.
No wait, it didn't.
On pulse (or godforbid, daimos), the marine is in a regular vent, so he can just jetpack backwards quickly, making it difficult for any alien to catch him.
Also, I actually think the new sava is really nice.
edit: also, the openings of the vents are kinda small, makes getting in there as a fade kinda hard
Anyway, I really agree with theclams point he made. I hope this has raised some awareness to those making CO maps as to the general lack of fun caused by having to exert so much energy in what is essentially a "fun deathmatch mode" to kill jpers.
The best CO map I think I've ever played is that one where the marine start had three Armories and that bunker for shooting out at the aliens, and the alien hive had only ONE vent leading into the hive and the hive was "enclosed" by walls. HAs could seriously dominate and break into that hive, but the JPers were almost always toast. It was a refreshing change from the regular CO map where 40-60% of the team had to constantly rush the vents to weed out the ONE marine who had a JP + GL or HMG. When one member of the other team can, entirely on their own, completely preoccupy 50% of the other team for a period of more than 1-2 minutes, there's a serious problem.
The "lids" on vents would certainly help. Shielding the hive in a less open area would be even better, at least on a portion of the maps so that JP isn't the obvious upgrade of choice for everyone. JPers shouldn't be given this level of virtual invulnerability - all paths should, to a certain extent, be viable.
The moment the aliens get 2 levels, for lerk sporing, or focus, heck even leap and cloak, the marines are going to have losses in every engagement. Once the aliens get 3 levels, fades and xeno appear, and marines begin to be locked into base.
Once the aliens get 4 levels, the 1st onos appears, and a web gorge can be obtained. Granted, the onos will suck without upgrades, but in hive defence, it is king. On most CO maps, the onos can block vents with its sheer size, block visual to the hive and in many maps with low ceilings, it can just jump and gore any JPer flying around without a problem.
By comparison, a 4 level marine can get JP, but with no resupply and only a L0 LMG.
GL clears webs, yes, but omg, REWEB! It's really funny when marines attempt some coordination, GL away the webs, and scream GOGOGO. Unfortunately, the gorge rewebs in the process and the 3 offending JPs fall from the sky and are gored / eaten / swiped / bitten.
Spread the webs around too, to cover the vents and entrances. Most GLs fire near the hive, so don't place too many webs there. Why do you need 5 webs at the hive itself, when just 2 will suffice to interdict the area?
for e.g. co_faceoff, the vents do not have a clear view of the hive, but do provide a view of the hive room, which it is claimed allows JPs to lame respawning skulks.
However, if you make the vents a la nancy, a fade or onos can just wait under the vent when they hear a JP or see it on SoF, making it utterly useless.
Considering foot marines will never make it to the hive on foot by this stage, JP is their only viable alternative. This kind of vents already make them deathtraps.
And talk of long vents that marines can retreat behind is a joke. It'll work against skulks yes, but by the time a JPer is on the scene, 1/4 to 1/2 the alien team should be a fade.
You can blink faster than a marine can jet backwards and swipe the bugger. Many vents have space for 2 models, so blink BEHIND the JPer so he can't shoot you and swipe from there.
A vanilla fade can survive 4 blasts from a shotgun, but you only need 3 swipes to kill the JPer. Chances are though, the fade might die. But once you get carapace, there is no way the JPer can get 7 shotgun blasts on you to kill you in the time for 3 swipes. And even if the fade DOES die, the JPer has to assault the hive with no armour, and prey to xeno / focus, doing NO damage to the hive.
GL? 4 direct GL hits won't kill a fade, 100% no kill if with cara. HMG might have a chance, but just blink to the side or behind.
And the marines have problems jetting through some of these vents.
e.g. faceoff, The vents have some elevation midway through them, so marines jet all the way behind, get stuck on the ledge or jet upwards, and the fade or skulk follows. And everyone knows aiming directly up or down is hard for marines.
e.g. pulse, same thing, differing elevation. And in pulse it's even better because each vent has 3 points of entry, some of them near the hive. So just backstab the JPer.
Just remember, it's very easy to counter the JPs, but once you remove vent access in this way, marines have almost no chance of winning on CO. Barring a rework of CO to give marines some fighting power, this small change will make CO unplayable for marines.
And for the timelimits of 20 and above, why are you playing at that time limit? The official is 15, and it is more than enough.
That's not the issue at hand, and if anything if marines have to win by JP's then there is a severe balance issue that is needed to be addressed anyway. That's no case for keeping in a fun destroying aspect of the game because it's the only way they're going to have any chance at winning.
Plus I love all the on paper explaination on why <b>what is happening on co servers should never happen but for some reason still does every day</b> <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
And the thing about aliens going fade and marines getting locked in base, it can be the other way around too. Marine gets two levels, and gets shotgun (Really easy to do of course.) Shotgun costs the same as focus, but since it's pro is close-medium quarters, it negates a skulk pretty easily. In the hands of a semi-skilled player, you can't really die from a skulk unless hes cloaking with focus, which is three points.
Better yet,
Either team can win, but now that aliens have to evolve, and require one person to stay as a gorge to heal the hive, its really easy for a marine to spam kills from a vent. its like on faceoff, if you die as an alien, you have to evolve, and marine JPers beeline for the hive whenever they can, so your only lucky if that marine doesent catch you when your evolving, or healing the hive for that matter.
If Aliens didnt have to evolve, and gorges had alittle more health, then the marine vent camping thing wouldnt be so bad. But the requirement to constantly remove marines from vents is not fun, nor entertaining. A fade would have to sit in base all day waiting for a jper to come so he can chase him around for the next minute.
Just move the vents out of hive range, sheesh. I dunno what map it is, but its the one that has a vent thats five feet off the ground, with an overhang above it. You can still kill people on the floor, but the raised hive prevents jpers from spamming the hive from it.
new Daimos -- welded PG basically = gg
Niveus -- worst hiveroom for aliens in any map
Sava -- 2 vents next to hive is a JP shelter and alien death trap
There are some good maps out there where games could go either way...like faceoff and pulse. Mappers should take note <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
new Daimos -- welded PG basically = gg
Niveus -- worst hiveroom for aliens in any map
Sava -- 2 vents next to hive is a JP shelter and alien death trap
There are some good maps out there where games could go either way...like faceoff and pulse. Mappers should take note <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
From that I got small maps > large maps.
Not everyone fades and on public servers that are the domain of the co games, not even half the fades are any good. Refer to the mid game balance thread for more on that.
Marines need a boost in OTHER area's, not an excuse to keep a fun killing aspect because of their weakness.