Omniscience>free Will
Grendel
All that is fear... Join Date: 2002-07-19 Member: 970Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, NS2 Playtester
All that is fear... Join Date: 2002-07-19 Member: 970Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, NS2 Playtester
in Discussions
<div class="IPBDescription">An inherent contradiction of dogma</div> Obviously, this one's aimed specifically at the christian/catholic end of the religious spectrum. It's part of Catholic dogma that all humans have free will, which means they are both responsible for their actions and capable of choosing their path for good or evil.
It's also a central tenet of christian faith that god is omniscient, omnipresent and generally omnileet. With those two basic concepts in mind:
1) God knows everything, that includes the future.
2) If your future is fixed, then you cannot make a "free" choice.
3) If you cannot make a choice, then you are damned from the moment of your birth or already pre-destined for salvation.
God already "knows" what you are going to do. So whatever you do is predetermined. So consequently, nothing you do is ever going to do anything but take you to your final fate. So no matter what you do, you cannot change your destiny.
Conclusion - What you do means nothing. The very existence of God renders all moral judgements or attempts at moral decision making in this world meaningless. You might torture helpless women and children your entire life, then change at the last moment, resulting in ascending to heaven. Or you might spend your life in faithful service, only to snap towards the end, ensuring your eternal damnation.
Essentially, through their suggestions as to the truth of our existence, the Church have kindly removed any need for ethical or moral behaviour whatsoever. There's no value to making the "right" decision. We've already made these decisions, we're just reading the lines as we get to each bit in the story. We may have the illusion of free will, but god's existence reduces it to insignificance.
Thoughts?
P.S. Yes, I know the above isn't very lucidly written. If Cagey or someone else can explain what I'm driving at better, more power to them.
It's also a central tenet of christian faith that god is omniscient, omnipresent and generally omnileet. With those two basic concepts in mind:
1) God knows everything, that includes the future.
2) If your future is fixed, then you cannot make a "free" choice.
3) If you cannot make a choice, then you are damned from the moment of your birth or already pre-destined for salvation.
God already "knows" what you are going to do. So whatever you do is predetermined. So consequently, nothing you do is ever going to do anything but take you to your final fate. So no matter what you do, you cannot change your destiny.
Conclusion - What you do means nothing. The very existence of God renders all moral judgements or attempts at moral decision making in this world meaningless. You might torture helpless women and children your entire life, then change at the last moment, resulting in ascending to heaven. Or you might spend your life in faithful service, only to snap towards the end, ensuring your eternal damnation.
Essentially, through their suggestions as to the truth of our existence, the Church have kindly removed any need for ethical or moral behaviour whatsoever. There's no value to making the "right" decision. We've already made these decisions, we're just reading the lines as we get to each bit in the story. We may have the illusion of free will, but god's existence reduces it to insignificance.
Thoughts?
P.S. Yes, I know the above isn't very lucidly written. If Cagey or someone else can explain what I'm driving at better, more power to them.
Comments
I'm going to stay on the sidelines for this at least initially, although I will mention I don't currently believe in predetermination.
EDIT: removed quote of entire post, and you should search "Calvinism" for background as well.
It can be easily explained away with bs like "you have the choice, God just knows what you will choose"
blind faith for the lose
ps. Can I be omnileet? <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
God doesn't determine what happens, he simply knows.
God reads your story, he doesn't write it.
EDIT: I don't agree with John Calvin's views, FYI.
EDIT2:
To further expand on my views concerning pre-determination...
If I told you I could pre-determine next year's Super Bowl winners, would you be surprised? Because I can. The winners of the Super Bowl, next year, will be the team that scores the most points in the Super Bowl.
I have just pre-destined or pre-determined the winners.
It's the same thing with salvation. God has pre-destined all who accept Jesus and his free gift of salvation <i>to</i> salvation.
This is one reason why I disagree with John Calvin... he teaches an "elect" that God has "chosen" as believers. Which in my opinion is complete posh.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You might torture helpless women and children your entire life, then change at the last moment, resulting in ascending to heaven. Or you might spend your life in faithful service, only to snap towards the end, ensuring your eternal damnation.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your first statement is true, if someone really turns to God with a humble heart and believing mind, then he will be saved. As for your second statement... no. Jesus said no one can grab (EDIT: It's funny that that word is filtered, so I chose another word...) his people from his hand.
~ DarkATi
Perhaps it's your choice of analogy, but it doesn't really compare. You haven't pre-destined anything in your example. Besides which, your example isn't even necessarily correct. Due to a rules based technicality, for example, the team with the less points could theoretically win.
Now if you told me that the Bengals were going to win 700-2 against the Cowboys, then fair enough. But it would then not matter what anyone did, the Bengals would win 700-2. Even if the Bengals never trained and spent the rest of the year smoking crack and rolling on doves with the cheerleading squad, they'd still win 700-2. <b>Events would happen that would ensure that this would be the case.</b> To suggest otherwise suggests that God is fallible.
Your reading analogy suggests that you aren't really thinking this through. If God can read my story, then it is <b>already written</b>. I cannot change that story.
By virtue of my destiny being fixed, any suggestion that I have free will or the ability to affect my destiny is impossible. It's one of the harder to escape logical paradoxes with having an omniscient god and free choice.
Romans 8:28-30
And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according go His purpose. 29) For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren; 30) and whom He predestined, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
What Grendel is talking about is the doctrine of election - in contrast to the doctrine of free will. I like to see them as 2 sides of the same coin. God knows everything - in fact, he knew everything before the foundation of the world. There is plenty of good Biblical evidence for this (this is a theology discussion, so Biblical evidence should be accepted for what it is).
Likewise there is plenty of evidence for free will - and mans responsibility for his own actions.
Basically, it comes down to Grace - God chooses some and not others, and the basis for that choice has nothing to do with the individuals involved.
Let me give an analogy that helped me visualize it. God is a baker - he bakes cookies. He wants everyone to have a cookie. His mode for passing out cookies is word of mouth. Now, God knows exactly who will take this cookie (he is a very smart baker). However, everyone still gets to choose individually weather or not they want this cookie.
What DarkATI is refering to is a theology called "Open Theism" (Greg Boyd being the big proponent of it). Basically, the doctrine restricts Gods knowledge to all the possible paths that history can take - with intervention at specific points to get his will done (coming of Christ, etc.) So God knows us better than we know ourselves - so he can "predict" how we will act in a certain situation - but he never "knows" the future... so to speak. I disagree with this theology, because I believe that there is enough Biblical evidence to support the other - and I believe that it is formed out of a desparation to see free will given pre-eminance over God's omnicience.
The part that people get offended at is "what about all the people God didn't choose - that isn't fair". Well, to be fair - they don't want to be chosen... In fact, their free will causes them to choose not to be chosen. To put the blame on God is missing the point - God is gracious and chooses some out of their eternal damnation and saves them. Others he does not choose.
In more human terms, just because I feed and cloth and care for my own children, doesn't mean I have to clean and feed and care for everyone elses... even more so when they don't want me too.
I must not have been very clear. This is absolutely incorrect. God doesn't know all the possible choices we could make and the subsequent consquences. He knows THE choices we make.
My point is, just because God knows what's going to happen it doesn't effect the fact that WE MAKE THE DECISIONS.
I know that guns exist and I know that if someone were to be shot with one, they would / could be killed. This doesn't put the blood on my hands.
So, sorry if I messed up earlier, but this isn't the doctrine I teach, Pepe.
~ DarkATi
I must not have been very clear. This is absolutely incorrect. God doesn't know all the possible choices we could make and the subsequent consquences. He knows THE choices we make.
My point is, just because God knows what's going to happen it doesn't effect the fact that WE MAKE THE DECISIONS.
I know that guns exist and I know that if someone were to be shot with one, they would / could be killed. This doesn't put the blood on my hands.
So, sorry if I messed up earlier, but this isn't the doctrine I teach, Pepe.
~ DarkATi <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
My bad - I don't mean to mis-label, and I am sorry if I offend.
This statement brings up another point (although somewhat OT). If God knows an atrocity is going to happen, but doesn't do anything to prevent it, can he be held liable for allowing that atrocity to happen? Of course you'd argue that God can't be held to the rules governing humanity (both those he made and those we made), but that just makes him an evil hypocrite.
Getting back to the topic at hand, we don't have free will if an omniscient, omnipotent God exists. It's not just that he knows the choices that we'll make, it's that <b>he created the universe (including the humans in it) in a specific fashion that determines the choices we'll make</b>. If he would have made humans with less curiosity, then Adam and Eve would still be sitting in the Garden of Eden, not having eaten the apple. He could have made humans with a smaller capacity for evil and there would be less atrocities, more people would go to heaven, and the world would be a better place. However, he didn't make us this way.
Someone hasn't watched the Terminator trilogy. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
This kind of adds another dimension to your analogy above. God could say that the Bengals are his chosen team, and he is going to use them to bring about the greatest football player of all time. When that player comes along, if the Bengals don't start him (the free will choice of the owners, coaches, everyone else), then God could have that player traded, to say, the Browns (who, as we all know, are God's REAL chosen people) who will then go on to win every superbowl until the end of time.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If he would have made humans with less curiosity, then Adam and Eve would still be sitting in the Garden of Eden, not having eaten the apple.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Before the Fall, Adam and Eve had complete free will to do whatever they wished. They were just warned that if they ate the apple, bad stuff would happen. Is it God's fault that they chose to disobey Him? Curiosity had nothing to do with it.
Before the Fall, Adam and Eve had complete free will to do whatever they wished. They were just warned that if they ate the apple, bad stuff would happen. Is it God's fault that they chose to disobey Him? Curiosity had nothing to do with it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
What? If they had no curiosity, then they wouldn't have touched the apple. But that doesn't effect my main point. They ate the apple because of their basic human nature, that God created. If he created them a different way, then they wouldn't have eaten the apple.
every choice i make affects my timeline, and God could know every possible timeline at once without forcing me to choose one of them he will still know what i will be doing.
/i dont believe this, just wanted to throw in the idea of God knowing multiple possible futures.
every choice i make affects my timeline, and God could know every possible timeline at once without forcing me to choose one of them he will still know what i will be doing.
/i dont believe this, just wanted to throw in the idea of God knowing multiple possible futures. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Pepe talked about that earlier in the thread. Search for "Open Theism."
Before the Fall, Adam and Eve had complete free will to do whatever they wished. They were just warned that if they ate the apple, bad stuff would happen. Is it God's fault that they chose to disobey Him? Curiosity had nothing to do with it. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What? If they had no curiosity, then they wouldn't have touched the apple. But that doesn't effect my main point. They ate the apple because of their basic human nature, that God created. If he created them a different way, then they wouldn't have eaten the apple. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
or it could be that they ate the apple because the were deceived...
Either way, God is what he is, and man is what he is - and never the twain shall meet without grace... The process of how they got there is up to interpretation / how much you want to blame God for the state of the world.
I find the "blame God" game tedious at best - it serves two purposes, one - to let people think that they are "better" or "fairer" or "more just" than God, and two - to provide an excuse for their own sinful lives.
Susceptibility to deceit is a part of human nature. God created human nature.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Either way, God is what he is, and man is what he is - and never the twain shall meet without grace... The process of how they got there is up to interpretation / how much you want to blame God for the state of the world.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd blame God for giving humanity the capacity for evil, at the very least.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I find the "blame God" game tedious at best - it serves two purposes, one - to let people think that they are "better" or "fairer" or "more just" than God, and two - to provide an excuse for their own sinful lives.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think that I'm better, fairer, or more just than God. I think that the prophets who created God, didn't create a good, fair, or just God (or a God that is likely to exist, in my opinion).
Susceptibility to deceit is a part of human nature. God created human nature.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ahh, I see... perfectly clear now. God is at fault - wait for it - because humans are gullible!
No, it was their free will that allowed them to eat of the tree... and if they didn't have free will, they couldn't have truely loved God.
Think of it this way... Does your computer love you? You can make it say "I love you" in a really convincing tone of voice - or put a screen saver on it that says "I love you" - but there is no love there.
But does a child love their parents? - yeah, they bring joy, and are useful (aka - a computer) - but they can also choose to hurt their parents, or disobey them. The fact that they can do that (and usually don't) is the true mark of love.
I have a question for you... What would your god act like (assuming he exists) - what is your ideal of a "perfect god"?
It's also a central tenet of christian faith that god is omniscient, omnipresent and generally omnileet. With those two basic concepts in mind:
1) God knows everything, that includes the future.
2) If your future is fixed, then you cannot make a "free" choice.
3) If you cannot make a choice, then you are damned from the moment of your birth or already pre-destined for salvation.
God already "knows" what you are going to do. So whatever you do is predetermined. So consequently, nothing you do is ever going to do anything but take you to your final fate. So no matter what you do, you cannot change your destiny.
Conclusion - What you do means nothing. The very existence of God renders all moral judgements or attempts at moral decision making in this world meaningless. You might torture helpless women and children your entire life, then change at the last moment, resulting in ascending to heaven. Or you might spend your life in faithful service, only to snap towards the end, ensuring your eternal damnation.
Essentially, through their suggestions as to the truth of our existence, the Church have kindly removed any need for ethical or moral behaviour whatsoever. There's no value to making the "right" decision. We've already made these decisions, we're just reading the lines as we get to each bit in the story. We may have the illusion of free will, but god's existence reduces it to insignificance.
Thoughts?
P.S. Yes, I know the above isn't very lucidly written. If Cagey or someone else can explain what I'm driving at better, more power to them. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Dunno, how can god know the future when it hasn't happend yet (Remember now, it is thought that time does not travel in a straight line.)
Susceptibility to deceit is a part of human nature. God created human nature.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ahh, I see... perfectly clear now. God is at fault - wait for it - because humans are gullible! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes. God creates Adam and Eve. He tells them not to eat an apple off of a tree. He obviously endowed them with curiosity. They didn't know good or evil (and thus they wouldn't know that obeying God is good or that the consequences would be evil). Thus, they would eventually eat the apple.
So, God creates two people. Gives them curiosity. He doesn't give them a reason to obey an order from Him. How is that the fault of humanity?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->No, it was their free will that allowed them to eat of the tree... and if they didn't have free will, they couldn't have truely loved God.
Think of it this way... Does your computer love you? You can make it say "I love you" in a really convincing tone of voice - or put a screen saver on it that says "I love you" - but there is no love there.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm curious. Why does God want people to love Him?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I have a question for you... What would your god act like (assuming he exists) - what is your ideal of a "perfect god"?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't know what a perfect god would be like. I don't even know if it's possible for anything to be perfect, given that everyone's definition of perfect is temporary, relative, and mutable.
If I had to imagine a perfect god, then that perfect god would be non-existent. I think that it would be better for humanity for there not to be a god, so that we could grow as a species, without having any laws or constraints put upon us. We would grow more sophisticated and mature than an instance of humanity that does have a creator and is bound by the laws of that creator.
You know, Christianity seems to me to be the sort of institution that I would impose upon the creatures in a <a href='http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Will_Wright' target='_blank'>Will Wright</a> game. I wonder how you would determine whether or not your God is real, or if there is just some other entity that is manipulating for fun. I don't think that there's any way of knowing that, so I don't know why you would believe one over the other.
<!--QuoteBegin-CommunistWithAGun+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CommunistWithAGun)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Dunno, how can god know the future when it hasn't happend yet (Remember now, it is thought that time does not travel in a straight line.)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, if God doesn't know something, then he isn't omniscient.
So, God creates two people. Gives them curiosity. He doesn't give them a reason to obey an order from Him. How is that the fault of humanity?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Genesis 3:15+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Genesis 3:15)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The LORD God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sounds like a damned good reason to me.
Think of it this way... Does your computer love you? You can make it say "I love you" in a really convincing tone of voice - or put a screen saver on it that says "I love you" - but there is no love there.
But does a child love their parents? - yeah, they bring joy, and are useful (aka - a computer) - but they can also choose to hurt their parents, or disobey them. The fact that they can do that (and usually don't) is the true mark of love. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
They could have had free will and loved God if He wanted it that way. He can do anything, right?
Think of it this way... Does your computer love you? You can make it say "I love you" in a really convincing tone of voice - or put a screen saver on it that says "I love you" - but there is no love there.
But does a child love their parents? - yeah, they bring joy, and are useful (aka - a computer) - but they can also choose to hurt their parents, or disobey them. The fact that they can do that (and usually don't) is the true mark of love. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They could have had free will and loved God if He wanted it that way. He can do anything, right? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
hmm, can god life a rock so big he can't lift it?
this is called begging the question...
Sounds like a damned good reason to me. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
The serpent told them that they wouldn't die.
<!--QuoteBegin-Genesis 3:4+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Genesis 3:4)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Without a knowledge that the serpent is evil and God is good, how would they know not to eat it. Would they even have concern over their own safety if they hadn't eaten the fruit yet?
Also, the "you will surely die" part reminds me that Adam and Eve were immortal. Thus, if God endowed Adam and Eve with even a single iota of curiosity, then they would have eventually eaten the fruit, because they were given infinite time.
For an event, if P1 is the probability of it happening, T is the amount of time during which it can happen, then P2 is the probability that it will eventually happen.
P1 * T = P2
Even if P1 is an almost infinitesimally small number, T would still be infinity, therefore it would happen. That's mathematics; I would think God would understand it.
Think of it this way... Does your computer love you? You can make it say "I love you" in a really convincing tone of voice - or put a screen saver on it that says "I love you" - but there is no love there.
But does a child love their parents? - yeah, they bring joy, and are useful (aka - a computer) - but they can also choose to hurt their parents, or disobey them. The fact that they can do that (and usually don't) is the true mark of love. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They could have had free will and loved God if He wanted it that way. He can do anything, right? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
hmm, can god life a rock so big he can't lift it?
this is called begging the question... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
God couldn't create a rock so big that he couldn't lift it, since he could just move the entire rest of the universe around the rock, effectively moving it. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Think of it this way... Does your computer love you? You can make it say "I love you" in a really convincing tone of voice - or put a screen saver on it that says "I love you" - but there is no love there.
But does a child love their parents? - yeah, they bring joy, and are useful (aka - a computer) - but they can also choose to hurt their parents, or disobey them. The fact that they can do that (and usually don't) is the true mark of love. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They could have had free will and loved God if He wanted it that way. He can do anything, right? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
hmm, can god life a rock so big he can't lift it?
this is called begging the question... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You say that it's either:
- God gives us free will. Some of us love Him. Some people go to hell, some to heaven.
- God leaves us without free will, but He doesn't get the "genuine love" (for lack of a better phrase).
I say that He can engineer it so that we still have free will, and also shower Him with
"genuine love". Otherwise, He isn't omnipotent (He can't do it) or He isn't omniscient (He doesn't know how to do it). And if God can have His cake and eat it, why hasn't He done so?
Its as I've said before: If the christian God exists, we were set up for the fall.
Sounds like a damned good reason to me. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The serpent told them that they wouldn't die.
<!--QuoteBegin-Genesis 3:4+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Genesis 3:4)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Without a knowledge that the serpent is evil and God is good, how would they know not to eat it. Would they even have concern over their own safety if they hadn't eaten the fruit yet?
Also, the "you will surely die" part reminds me that Adam and Eve were immortal. Thus, if God endowed Adam and Eve with even a single iota of curiosity, then they would have eventually eaten the fruit, because they were given infinite time.
For an event, if P1 is the probability of it happening, T is the amount of time during which it can happen, then P2 is the probability that it will eventually happen.
P1 * T = P2
Even if P1 is an almost infinitesimally small number, T would still be infinity, therefore it would happen. That's mathematics; I would think God would understand it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
so eventually, life will evolve on pluto - right? (don't answer - I'm being cynical - sorry)
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Without a knowledge that the serpent is evil and God is good, how would they know not to eat it. Would they even have concern over their own safety if they hadn't eaten the fruit yet?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
God commanded them not to eat it before hand. That should be reason enough not to.
In all honesty, though - Genesis isn't trying to answer a question on probablility - it is explaining the human predicament and giving the reason for it. Anything beyond that gets into the realm of speculation.
Blaming God for curiosity is like blaming God that were not made out of metal and hence can suffer a broken bone. It is a moot point. Likewise, you can't say that curiosity is evil - but like most good things it can be used for evil (insert favorite quote on gun control here...).
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't care that you're being cynical, I'm going to answer anyway:
Yes, if pluto will exist for an infinite period of time (it won't) and there is any chance at all of life evolving on it (I wouldn't know).
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->God commanded them not to eat it before hand. That should be reason enough not to.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Except that God knew that they would anyway, even disregarding his clairvoyance. God is smart enough to realise that if anything is even slightly possible it will happen given an infinite period of time. Therefore, God knew that Adam and Eve would disobey him because he created them with the ability to disobey. Furthermore, God created the tree of knowledge for no readily aparent reason other then to tempt them. No matter how faithful man was, there was still a chance that we would eat from the tree, and given infinite time it would happen.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In all honesty, though - Genesis isn't trying to answer a question on probablility - it is explaining the human predicament and giving the reason for it. Anything beyond that gets into the realm of speculation.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh? So now that the logic doesn't follow we aren't to take the story that literally? Is that what you're saying?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Blaming God for curiosity is like blaming God that were not made out of metal and hence can suffer a broken bone. It is a moot point.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No it isn't. Its like blaming god for not making us out of metal and God commanding us to be magnetic. It is logically impossible to obey.
God commanded them not to eat it before hand. That should be reason enough not to. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why would they listen to God and not the serpent, since they don't understand that God is good and the serpent is evil? You may understand, but they didn't have the capability to understand something like that.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In all honesty, though - Genesis isn't trying to answer a question on probablility - it is explaining the human predicament and giving the reason for it. Anything beyond that gets into the realm of speculation. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's skirting pretty close to a fable, rather than a true story.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Blaming God for curiosity is like blaming God that were not made out of metal and hence can suffer a broken bone.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not really. God told us to follow a certain rule and then he gave us a characteristic that would ensure that we'd eventually break that rule. That means he's either lying (he really did want us to eat the apple), the Bible is lying (the story isn't true), or God's stupid (he doesn't understand probability; I doubt that if He exists, He would be stupid, although it's a possibility).
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It is a moot point. Likewise, you can't say that curiosity is evil - but like most good things it can be used for evil (insert favorite quote on gun control here...)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think it's a moot point (otherwise I wouldn't be continuing this line of discussion, I guess).
Also, I think that curiosity is a good thing (and sometimes necessary, especially to advance from cave men to computer geeks).