I think he is suggesting that god (using the small g on purpose as always) can somehow see in the future and there still be freewill in a non-deterministic universe. Which is completely unreasonable and drops him straight into the camp of 'I have faith so I don't care if its nonsensical' and so I hadn't bothered to reply to him <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-theclam+Apr 13 2005, 04:44 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (theclam @ Apr 13 2005, 04:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Bogglesteinsky+Apr 13 2005, 03:45 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Bogglesteinsky @ Apr 13 2005, 03:45 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> then omniscience is only possible in a deterministic universe.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why? Given that your whole argument revolves around this point, I think you had better explain yourself. God is also omnipotent yet? So he can find a way that means he knows everything that will happen and yet man still has perfect free will.
Man will always freely choose to do the thing that God has planned. Thats where faith comes in, so, since I am now resting my case, I shall proceed to let you guys argue on. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You are quoting out of context. Read my whole post.
A deterministic universe is a universe where everything has been determined from the beginning of time. Thus, by the variation of omniscience that I was talking about (I described two possible definitions of omniscience, which you should have quoted), an omniscient being would know everything that would come to pass.
I also came to the conclusion that an omniscient, omnipotent God (by using the big G, I'm referring to the Christian God) can't exist in a deterministic universe, so if Christianity is correct, the universe is non-deterministic. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Which would make sense, considering Christians also believe in free will.
Is this the first discussion where people actually end up seeing eye to eye in a long time?
Although, one more nitpick: It is possible for God to know the final possible outcome ahead of time if he is not bound by time. Since our worldview assumes he's soverign to everything, and that "a day for the lord is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like a day," this is consistant.
Why? Given that your whole argument revolves around this point, I think you had better explain yourself. God is also omnipotent yet? So he can find a way that means he knows everything that will happen and yet man still has perfect free will.
Man will always freely choose to do the thing that God has planned. Thats where faith comes in, so, since I am now resting my case, I shall proceed to let you guys argue on. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You are quoting out of context. Read my whole post.
A deterministic universe is a universe where everything has been determined from the beginning of time. Thus, by the variation of omniscience that I was talking about (I described two possible definitions of omniscience, which you should have quoted), an omniscient being would know everything that would come to pass.
I also came to the conclusion that an omniscient, omnipotent God (by using the big G, I'm referring to the Christian God) can't exist in a deterministic universe, so if Christianity is correct, the universe is non-deterministic. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Which would make sense, considering Christians also believe in free will.
Is this the first discussion where people actually end up seeing eye to eye in a long time?
Although, one more nitpick: It is possible for God to know the final possible outcome ahead of time if he is not bound by time. Since our worldview assumes he's soverign to everything, and that "a day for the lord is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like a day," this is consistant. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> If God can travel in time, or see the future, then my argument falls apart. His knowledge of the future determines what he tells his prophets, or how he creates the universe. Unless, of course, he never uses those powers.
Sort of but not, if a being travels forward in time to see the future and goes back to the past and tells them about it surely that future must come to pass otherwise where did that being go? Thats back to the original problem. Christians just say 'god is all powerful, he can do it' without thinking about the fact that it doesn't make sense.
Again, ok, so maybe he can. But you can't join in a rational discussion about omniscience versus freewill if you just keep on saying 'god can do anything'.
I wouldn't think of it as time travel so much as instead looking in on time... like reading a book, every word simultaniously. Kind of like <u>Flatworld</u>, He's just simply looking at us in more dimensions than we can imagine. Hence, he has an outside perspective on everything, including time itself.
Comments
Why? Given that your whole argument revolves around this point, I think you had better explain yourself. God is also omnipotent yet? So he can find a way that means he knows everything that will happen and yet man still has perfect free will.
Man will always freely choose to do the thing that God has planned. Thats where faith comes in, so, since I am now resting my case, I shall proceed to let you guys argue on. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You are quoting out of context. Read my whole post.
A deterministic universe is a universe where everything has been determined from the beginning of time. Thus, by the variation of omniscience that I was talking about (I described two possible definitions of omniscience, which you should have quoted), an omniscient being would know everything that would come to pass.
I also came to the conclusion that an omniscient, omnipotent God (by using the big G, I'm referring to the Christian God) can't exist in a deterministic universe, so if Christianity is correct, the universe is non-deterministic. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Which would make sense, considering Christians also believe in free will.
Is this the first discussion where people actually end up seeing eye to eye in a long time?
Although, one more nitpick: It is possible for God to know the final possible outcome ahead of time if he is not bound by time. Since our worldview assumes he's soverign to everything, and that "a day for the lord is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like a day," this is consistant.
Why? Given that your whole argument revolves around this point, I think you had better explain yourself. God is also omnipotent yet? So he can find a way that means he knows everything that will happen and yet man still has perfect free will.
Man will always freely choose to do the thing that God has planned. Thats where faith comes in, so, since I am now resting my case, I shall proceed to let you guys argue on. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You are quoting out of context. Read my whole post.
A deterministic universe is a universe where everything has been determined from the beginning of time. Thus, by the variation of omniscience that I was talking about (I described two possible definitions of omniscience, which you should have quoted), an omniscient being would know everything that would come to pass.
I also came to the conclusion that an omniscient, omnipotent God (by using the big G, I'm referring to the Christian God) can't exist in a deterministic universe, so if Christianity is correct, the universe is non-deterministic. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Which would make sense, considering Christians also believe in free will.
Is this the first discussion where people actually end up seeing eye to eye in a long time?
Although, one more nitpick: It is possible for God to know the final possible outcome ahead of time if he is not bound by time. Since our worldview assumes he's soverign to everything, and that "a day for the lord is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like a day," this is consistant. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
If God can travel in time, or see the future, then my argument falls apart. His knowledge of the future determines what he tells his prophets, or how he creates the universe. Unless, of course, he never uses those powers.
Again, ok, so maybe he can. But you can't join in a rational discussion about omniscience versus freewill if you just keep on saying 'god can do anything'.