3.0 Balance Preference

13

Comments

  • DuoGodOfDeathDuoGodOfDeath Join Date: 2002-08-01 Member: 1044Members
    I will quote myself and say it again. You know NS is balanced when in a scrim you don't need fades but just 1 lerk and 5 mini fades <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif' /><!--endemo--> running around. That is all. Boost Marines or nerf the Aliens a bit. And adapting (LOL LOCKED) hasn't worked in the past 7 weeks so far.

    Aliens > Marines
  • FirewaterFirewater Balance Expert Join Date: 2002-12-12 Member: 10690Members, Constellation
    I've suggested this numerous times for the sensory chamber, but yet continue to be ignored.

    The Sensory chamber would lose the ability to cloak players.

    HOWEVER,

    It would still retain the ability to self-cloak, and provide a greater range of scent of fear (the range of an obs would sound fair).

    This would eliminate the dependence on the marines for early scan, and take away the focus/cloaking combination that is very lethal to marine expansion in the early to mid game.
  • NadagastNadagast Join Date: 2002-11-04 Member: 6884Members
    If you wanna buff nades why not make them like TFC? Where you can prime them and throw them without switching weapons, as long as they aren't too powerful they would be really useful...
  • BuggyBuggy Join Date: 2003-11-08 Member: 22400Members, Constellation
    Since my post at page 1 and half a dozen of pcw's later i've really begun to swing towards nerfing skulks in particular. Remember how marines waltzed all over aliens, the skulks throwing themselves at the marines to give them a target other than a res node? Whether or not it was fun is debatable, but it was decently balanced. The more skulks held on to their res nodes, the more chance they had to hold back a swarm of HMG's on their building hives.

    With the freely upgraded innate regen / cele / silence / focus / cloak / carapace skulks, marines hardly even get a chance to look at alien nodes, they're glad if they can cap 5-6 of their own before fades show up, which they usually do too early for marines to really compete. I really think skulks need to be toned down a little so the marines can properly set themselves up for mid-game again. If this means removing free upgrades or innate regen so they're back at 9 (?) bullets, it has my vote.

    Let's be honest here, we all thought they'd be nice features that would make chambers other than DC viable, and early skulking less frustrating. But i'd rather have skulks be demoted to fodder/rt chompers again and have a fun, fair game of marine, than winning alien rounds because of a free starting lifeform that often goes 1:1 against evenly skilled marines.
  • KeyserKeyser Join Date: 2003-02-15 Member: 13591Members
    <!--QuoteBegin-Nadagast+Apr 20 2005, 02:08 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nadagast @ Apr 20 2005, 02:08 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If you wanna buff nades why not make them like TFC? Where you can prime them and throw them without switching weapons, as long as they aren't too powerful they would be really useful... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    And WAY too powerful...

    Killing fades would never become easier. Someone mentioned halo style grenades, I think that would work the best without being overpowered.

    Looking at this whole situation as either buff marines or nerf aliens shows a very narrow perspective, so this poll is really in essence pointless.

    The best thing about 3.0 is the free upgrades. This made the aliens much more enjoyable to play, and of course this was a pretty heavy buff but for now I think it should stay in.

    Sensories need to be heavily reworked. There is (and should be) no such thing as a "hard counter" in a fps, and it should be kept that way. Right now, sensory totally nullifies marine aggressiveness in the beginning of the game, and scanning almost entirely does away with the SC advantage. This takes away all fps abilities and puts it straight into the hands of the commander or the ability itself. Cloaking needs to be changed in the next version, although I'm not sure how to best fix the situation.

    I've always hated electricity and turrents, since they are all but useless in competitive games and make pub games horribly boring.
  • SwiftspearSwiftspear Custim tital Join Date: 2003-10-29 Member: 22097Members
    <!--QuoteBegin-Firewater+Apr 20 2005, 12:27 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Firewater @ Apr 20 2005, 12:27 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I've suggested this numerous times for the sensory chamber, but yet continue to be ignored.

    The Sensory chamber would lose the ability to cloak players.

    HOWEVER,

    It would still retain the ability to self-cloak, and provide a greater range of scent of fear (the range of an obs would sound fair).

    This would eliminate the dependence on the marines for early scan, and take away the focus/cloaking combination that is very lethal to marine expansion in the early to mid game. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Does it cloak chambers? if so on what range?
  • FirewaterFirewater Balance Expert Join Date: 2002-12-12 Member: 10690Members, Constellation
    no it wouldn't cloak chambers.
  • AndervalAnderval &lt;3 Join Date: 2003-05-05 Member: 16073Members, Constellation
    in the last two threads (including comp feedback discussion) there have been some really good ideas, but in my opinion just too many of them, really before most of these could be implemented or balanced for a simple patch possibly even a serverside only should be released with some pure balance fixes for the biggest issues ns has at the moment.

    personally a list i think would do the job and give the dev team something to build from is:

    - removing the extra bullet given to skulks, either by lowering hp or altering innate regen
    - fix skulk hitboxes specifically skulks wallwalking
    - increase seige damage or reinstate seige damage to players
    - limit alien rfk to 1res per kill rather than 1-3

    i feel that these few changes or some others like them would fix the balance of ns sufficiently for other more feature oriented changes to be made later, its no good trying to make handgrenades better or to balance chamber validity or fix sc without a reasonably balanced starting point or you risk messing things up even more.

    oh and yes apart from the seige change everything on that list relates to early game skulks, 3.0f did a good job of making those skulks stronger, but too strong, it turns out that marines needed to be able to take out skulks early on in a round so that they arnt crippled midgame due to lack of res and map control
  • TheAdjTheAdj He demanded a cool forum title of some type. Join Date: 2004-05-03 Member: 28436Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
    To deal with the skulk problem, people are suggesting all types of stuff. Has no one thought of simply increasing LMG damage so that it takes 8 bullets to kill a skulk? If they get free upgrades and innate regen, why not take trade that for taking fewer bullets? I personally love that skulks and a lerk can do the job in competitive play that used to take 2-3 fades, it's amazing to watch demos of this stuff in action now.
  • theclamtheclam Join Date: 2004-08-01 Member: 30290Members
    <!--QuoteBegin-Church+Apr 20 2005, 10:03 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Church @ Apr 20 2005, 10:03 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Well, grenade are worthless right NOW though, don't you agree? So it's either buff them...or get rid of them. Again I'd look to Halo for grenade improvement ideas. Instantaneous throw (no priming time required) with ROF of 2 per 3 seconds, marines start with 4 of them, and can be resupplied via ammo pack (all 4 grenades resupplied with one ammo pack), and then add in a slight damage/radius boost (one grenade enough to kill a gorge or lerk with say...level2 weapons researched or something) and I would definitely research it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    If grenades came in packs of 4, had instantaneous throw, and they could be replenished by ammo packs, then you'll never see GLs again, unless the grenade price was jacked up.

    I think the best solution would be to give them Halo style instantaneous throw and nothing else (you couldn't prime them). Then they might actually be more cost effective than a GL in certain scenarios.
  • ChurchChurch Meatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2 Join Date: 2002-12-31 Member: 11646Members, Constellation
    Instant throw, but you can't throw them as quickly as you can fire a GL, nor can you throw them as far as a GL. Maybe lower the ROF to one grenade thrown per 2 seconds.
  • AlbinoAlbino Join Date: 2003-08-17 Member: 19841Members, NS1 Playtester
    What do you guys think about increasing the energy needed to leap?
  • GrendelGrendel All that is fear... Join Date: 2002-07-19 Member: 970Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, NS2 Playtester
    Why not have the game so that the focus is primarily on skulks (LA Marine Vs Skulk is the core game play after all), whilst reducing the cost and deadliness (thus increasing the frequency) of higher lifeforms?
  • ChurchChurch Meatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2 Join Date: 2002-12-31 Member: 11646Members, Constellation
    You mean make Fades easier to kill, and make them cheaper? I'd be willing to try it.
  • pSyk0mAnpSyk0mAn Nerdish by Nature Germany Join Date: 2003-08-07 Member: 19166Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Community Developer
    <!--QuoteBegin-Albino+Apr 21 2005, 03:51 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Albino @ Apr 21 2005, 03:51 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> What do you guys think about increasing the energy needed to leap? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I like it.
    That would help marines to gain more rfk in mid-game, because it is more difficult to leave fights after 1-2 bites as a skulk, especially if the skulk is also leaping around the group like crazy.
  • RobertoRoberto Join Date: 2003-03-16 Member: 14591Members, Constellation
    and adding further incentive for a skulk to get adrenaline.
  • todd1Oktodd1Ok Join Date: 2004-04-19 Member: 28018Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester
    two to west, two to topo.
    rgr.
    rines in west
    rush
    scF.ns > chippy killed <3 avl with parasite
    scF.ns > todd10k [hive4tehwin] killed [Mix] Malibu stacey with nuke

    win.

    thats where it's all at. either marines kill the skulks or you automatically fail to cap 2 rt's right off the bat. sets you back pretty decently. and if the guys in topo get para killed also, then your screwed.

    simple fact: marines need to be able to kill skulks early game. otherwise, it's game over, and an auto marine loss. i absolutly love free upgrades, they make skulking fun and interesting. i do not support their removal.

    what i believe we should do is simple. either remove passive regen on skulks ( which i dont want, cause i like it), or make it so that it only works when not under fire (wenn a marien yus pointung teh gunnar at j00). this'll drop you back to 8 bullets?... possible higher chamber cost? im a proponent of the auto armor 1 or welder spawn ideas. but as grendel said, enough about floating scorpions.

    what about making skulking that extra bit harder?

    reduce the skulks "cone of fire" so that it becomes harder to bite at obtuse angles, perhaps? make skulking footsteps more audable at slower speeds? a skulks power lies in it's ability to be discreet.

    perhaps the skulk could randomly fart every so often? <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
  • CalebCaleb Join Date: 2004-06-04 Member: 29103Members
    overall, i think things are fairly balanced, aside from a few things in particular.....

    keep in mind i play alien as much as marine, and am not giving either preferred treatment

    for one, JPers have WAY too much armor. one would expect them to have less armor to take flight, as a balance for speed *also due to the fact a good JPer can stay airborn for virtually ever, with only brief ground taps*. that would make the heavy armor what its name says, make the JP a sorta 'skirmisher', but more easily killed, and the basic marine the 'half and half'. that, or bring back lerk spikes as their slot 1 wweapon so theres SOME kinda ranged attack to shoot with, which brings me to point 2....

    .... give aliens SOME kinda ranged atk ability. ATM, its acid rocket, hardly that effective aside from against armor *to my knowledge*, bile bombs *buildings only*, and the gas. the lerk was perfect with its spikes, since its easily killed if its hit, and its small.

    increase the energy prices for stomp and blink, so that they cant be spammed. this way, it hasta be timed right, and not done willy nilly. or make it so stomp's effect wont affect marines in mid-jump *something that i never understood, aside from maybe being an engine problem thats hardcoded*. blink, likewise, still works when energy is almost out, in big spurts, making it effectively infinite. put a cap so that it wont activate when energy is below a certain amount.

    the last thing is to tone down MT a TINY bit, in the way of having a creature 'walking' not show up on MT. this makes silence actually effective late game, and makes cloak less abused, or likewise, could increase the effect of personal cloak at expense of making noise, and decrease the reliance of putting SC at choke points and possibly unwinnable for marines.

    please note, these would likely not solve EVERYthing, and im likely missing something in some of them thatll unbalance other things. im just thinkin in general ATM.
  • ChurchChurch Meatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2 Join Date: 2002-12-31 Member: 11646Members, Constellation
    1) Check spelling

    2) You obviously don't have much competitive experience. Please do not post what would be considered spam here (because people will ignore you)
  • SwiftspearSwiftspear Custim tital Join Date: 2003-10-29 Member: 22097Members
    and you guys thought my posts were bad...
  • NGENGE Join Date: 2003-11-10 Member: 22443Members
    <!--QuoteBegin-Caleb+Apr 21 2005, 09:07 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Caleb @ Apr 21 2005, 09:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> overall, i think things are fairly balanced, aside from a few things in particular.....

    keep in mind i play alien as much as marine, and am not giving either preferred treatment

    for one, JPers have WAY too much armor. one would expect them to have less armor to take flight, as a balance for speed *also due to the fact a good JPer can stay airborn for virtually ever, with only brief ground taps*. that would make the heavy armor what its name says, make the JP a sorta 'skirmisher', but more easily killed, and the basic marine the 'half and half'. that, or bring back lerk spikes as their slot 1 wweapon so theres SOME kinda ranged attack to shoot with, which brings me to point 2....

    .... give aliens SOME kinda ranged atk ability. ATM, its acid rocket, hardly that effective aside from against armor *to my knowledge*, bile bombs *buildings only*, and the gas. the lerk was perfect with its spikes, since its easily killed if its hit, and its small.

    increase the energy prices for stomp and blink, so that they cant be spammed. this way, it hasta be timed right, and not done willy nilly. or make it so stomp's effect wont affect marines in mid-jump *something that i never understood, aside from maybe being an engine problem thats hardcoded*. blink, likewise, still works when energy is almost out, in big spurts, making it effectively infinite. put a cap so that it wont activate when energy is below a certain amount.

    the last thing is to tone down MT a TINY bit, in the way of having a creature 'walking' not show up on MT. this makes silence actually effective late game, and makes cloak less abused, or likewise, could increase the effect of personal cloak at expense of making noise, and decrease the reliance of putting SC at choke points and possibly unwinnable for marines.

    please note, these would likely not solve EVERYthing, and im likely missing something in some of them thatll unbalance other things. im just thinkin in general ATM. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    You are a perfect example of why people should lose posting privilages from this forum.

    JPs have too much armor? Imagine; if you could hit JP's they wouldn't be a problem. The point is that the marine team pays a lot of money and tech for the JP, so it should give an advantage.

    And no, they cannot stay airborne forever. However, a good fade can blink forever...

    Lerk spikes are awful as a weapon; aliens aren't even really supposed to be about ranged attacks. They don't need them to win, and the fact that they lack a lot of ranged attacks helps make them more unique from the marine team. Lerk spikes are redundant with spores; bite fits the lerk so much better than spikes ever did.

    Stomp is already adrenaline intensive, and blink is considered extremely difficult to use by novices. You cannot spam either attack. And for the cost of the onos, it should be able to stomp mid-jump marines. If you think that you can just hold down blink and not get killed, then the marines you play against cannot aim properly.

    What is the point to toning down MT? It's supposed to counter abilities like silence and provide huge advantages; it's a tradeoff to other upgrades like a1 and w2.

    All of your suggestions seem to be based off your oppinion of what you think to be fun and not actually how the game plays out most of the time.
  • ChurchChurch Meatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2 Join Date: 2002-12-31 Member: 11646Members, Constellation
    Sadly, there ARE some marines that have that bad of aim :-p

    I actually think stomp range is a bit too long, but that's just me.
  • SwiftspearSwiftspear Custim tital Join Date: 2003-10-29 Member: 22097Members
    I have to agree with him about the MT thing to some degree. It is too hard a counter to silence, which really isn't that overpowered an ability without it. I'd like to see either focus and silence switch chambers, or MT be restricted to within the range of obs towers and pings (if this was done it should see non moving targets as well, and the upgrade cost/time should be signifigantly decreased).

    Of course I can only claim to know my changes would work well at the pub play level, but in pubs MT is somewhat overpowered as an upgrade.
  • KeyserKeyser Join Date: 2003-02-15 Member: 13591Members
    <!--QuoteBegin-Grendel+Apr 21 2005, 03:56 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Grendel @ Apr 21 2005, 03:56 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Why not have the game so that the focus is primarily on skulks (LA Marine Vs Skulk is the core game play after all), whilst reducing the cost and deadliness (thus increasing the frequency) of higher lifeforms? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    How does increasing the frequency of fades put more emphasis on skulks vs LA marines?

    I like the idea, but for the exact the opposite reason. I think lifeforms should be more expendable as to take away from the purely skulk vs LA marine we see in the early game, and a great degree in the middle and later.

    If fades could have a price tag of about 30 or so, fades would be expendable yet important. It would take the fate of the alien team out of one players hands and put it back into the team. It would also have the added benefit of reaching higher tech faster, thus making games faster, something that NS drastically needs.
  • FirewaterFirewater Balance Expert Join Date: 2002-12-12 Member: 10690Members, Constellation
    I like the idea of that, but how would the fade abilities be scaled down?


    Also who would do the testing?

    Would it be mustang, arguably the greatest fade in NS, or someone else less qualified.

    In order to test this I believe a consistent skill group is neccesary.

    As always bring on the flames, they are enjoyable to read.
  • IsamilIsamil Join Date: 2003-11-25 Member: 23552Members, Constellation
    <!--QuoteBegin-Keyser+Apr 22 2005, 10:23 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Keyser @ Apr 22 2005, 10:23 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If fades could have a price tag of about 30 or so, fades would be expendable yet important. It would take the fate of the alien team out of one players hands and put it back into the team. It would also have the added benefit of reaching higher tech faster, thus making games faster, something that NS drastically needs. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    What would you do with the lerk then; just consider them lifeforms with 2 differant roles but the same cost?
  • tankefugltankefugl One Script To Rule Them All... Trondheim, Norway Join Date: 2002-11-14 Member: 8641Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
  • Minstrel_KnightMinstrel_Knight The truth and nothing but the truth... Join Date: 2002-11-21 Member: 9562Banned
    <!--QuoteBegin-tankefugl+Apr 22 2005, 12:36 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (tankefugl @ Apr 22 2005, 12:36 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I&S, anyone? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Then our suggestions would get lost in the deluge of garbage that spews forth from the mouths of non competitive players.
  • FirewaterFirewater Balance Expert Join Date: 2002-12-12 Member: 10690Members, Constellation
    <!--QuoteBegin-Minstrel Knight+Apr 22 2005, 01:01 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Minstrel Knight @ Apr 22 2005, 01:01 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-tankefugl+Apr 22 2005, 12:36 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (tankefugl @ Apr 22 2005, 12:36 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I&S, anyone? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Then our suggestions would get lost in the deluge of garbage that spews forth from the mouths of non competitive players. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Doesn't that happen anyway in this forum?
  • tankefugltankefugl One Script To Rule Them All... Trondheim, Norway Join Date: 2002-11-14 Member: 8641Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
    edited April 2005
    Believe it or not, the I&S forum is actually monitoried and read almost every day by more than one developer. I'm sorry to kill off the misconception, but this sub-forum is not a direct feed into the development cycle's heart.

    We're able to read, and we're able to separate clever, well-argumented and creative suggestions from poor ones.
This discussion has been closed.