<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Is this true even officially? Come on, they've got FAST breeders. As in breeding plutonium. They have something like half the reactors we do, which is a lot for the size of the nation. They must have enough material for thousands of nukes by now.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually your question is more than viable. Mitsubishi ( a Japanese company, most widely know for selling cars), for instance, is cofirmed to have bought 4 russian nuclear submarines for research purposes.
The security act from after WW2 deneis them Nuclear weapons or nuclear propulsion for warships. Also they do not have an official army to begin with. Its calles SDF (self-defense force) Yet its under the 4 best funded armies in the world.
They have the nessesary technology and material and I guess they had plenty of unofficial technology transfer from the US since tensions with China began to heat up.
The most interesting factor is, that very littel info about chinese military technology is official or even leaking. We know more about chinas Military capabilities than Japans <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
As for the post about Chinese inferior weapon technology: You are wrong.
China has began to develop own and complete new Weapon systems in the 80s. Right now its a matter of budget, but since their economy is growing exponentially and everybody in the world just begs to sell their stuff to them, it is a matter of time until they catch up to the west.
The most spectacular example is their MBT system, the T98 and the newer version T99.
Its based on the soviet T72, with completely redesigned turret and a far more reliable and powerful weapon. The most intruiging feature is a very sophisitcated active defense system, based on a very strong laser. The laser is mounted on the back of the turret, and is suposedly usable for wireless transmissions to other tanks. The main purpose is to destroy or damadge the guiding systems of incoming missles, or the ones of the vehicle that lounched them. The tanks has sensors that detect lasers pointed at it and determine their source. Then, the defense system is automatically directed at it and emits a very strong laser that fries the emitter.
Theoretically, the weapon could also destroy the sensors of missles guided by other means than laser (e.g. infa-red or optical guidiance), that would require the tank to have an active radar system that scans for incoming objects.
here's a link to the T98, which is already outdated by the newer and heavier armored T99 or T89G variant. I only skimmed it, its the first one I found in english language, but it should do the trick.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> There’s allot of things we could have done to defeat Stalin without resorting to nukes. We could have re-armed the German army; millions of well trained, freshly supplied troop’s fighting to defend their homeland from the dreaded commies would have put quite a dent in Stalin’s forces.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
well, thats what actually happend. without the war that is <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-reasa+Apr 17 2005, 10:54 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (reasa @ Apr 17 2005, 10:54 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> As far as the US vs. China, I suggest you read a pretty good book called <i>Protect and Defend</i> it's pretty much a fictional run down of what would happen if China fought the US in Siberia for control of Russia. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> <i>The Bear and the Dragon</i> by Clancy is another one on the same topic. Of course, it gives up a bit of believability for entertainment value, but it's still rather good.
<!--QuoteBegin-Legat+Apr 17 2005, 05:04 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Legat @ Apr 17 2005, 05:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> As for the post about Chinese inferior weapon technology: You are wrong.
China has began to develop own and complete new Weapon systems in the 80s. Right now its a matter of budget, but since their economy is growing exponentially and everybody in the world just begs to sell their stuff to them, it is a matter of time until they catch up to the west.
The most spectacular example is their MBT system, the T98 and the newer version T99.
Its based on the soviet T72, with completely redesigned turret and a far more reliable and powerful weapon. The most intruiging feature is a very sophisitcated active defense system, based on a very strong laser. The laser is mounted on the back of the turret, and is suposedly usable for wireless transmissions to other tanks. The main purpose is to destroy or damadge the guiding systems of incoming missles, or the ones of the vehicle that lounched them. The tanks has sensors that detect lasers pointed at it and determine their source. Then, the defense system is automatically directed at it and emits a very strong laser that fries the emitter.
Theoretically, the weapon could also destroy the sensors of missles guided by other means than laser (e.g. infa-red or optical guidiance), that would require the tank to have an active radar system that scans for incoming objects.
here's a link to the T98, which is already outdated by the newer and heavier armored T99 or T89G variant. I only skimmed it, its the first one I found in english language, but it should do the trick.
<a href='http://www.china-defense.com/armor/type98/type98_1.html' target='_blank'>http://www.china-defense.com/armor/type98/type98_1.html</a> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> No YOU are wrong their weapons tech is inferior to that of the NATO militaries, the Chinese are at least a decade behind NATO perhaps more when it comes to weapons technology.
Giving ONE example of a tank they have developed (which doesn't look or sound all that great tbh) doesn't make them suddenly our equals on the battlefield.....
Their Airforce and Navy are a sub-standard tbh consisting of 2nd hand Soviet planes or versions of said planes they have built themselves. As for their navy it's mostly Russian designs which while they better than what they had in the past they are still a generation behind what the west has.
The biggest advantage the American military has is its air force. Our army is good, but it's way more effective than it should be because our air force bombs the crap outta targets before we go in with troops and tanks. Our navy is good, but that's mainly because we have so many aircraft carriers.
sure it kills a lot of your enemys at once. but what about all the radiation that affects your own country. crops will die, disfigured childern, dead animals and that will last for hundereds maybe even thousands of years. so it effectively wipes out not only your enemys but yourself and the rest of the world. meaning that the very u thing u fought to protect is what u just destroyed.
sure it kills a lot of your enemys at once. but what about all the radiation that affects your own country. crops will die, disfigured childern, dead animals and that will last for hundereds maybe even thousands of years. so it effectively wipes out not only your enemys but yourself and the rest of the world. meaning that the very u thing u fought to protect is what u just destroyed. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is not a nuclear weapons topic. Everyone here knows the primary and secondary effects of nuclear weapons. Everyone here knows the international consequences of using nuclear weapons.
<span style='font-size:4pt;line-height:100%'>[Just for you: Individual nuclear weapons are an exceptional weapon (for the purpose of most military applications), the modern problem stems from the fact that if you use one nuclear weapon your enemy (or their ally) will inevitably use one to realiate against you. They're also not likely to be used against sub-par forces by a democratic nation-state, because they would suffer from terrible international backlash (one of the reasons you'll never see a nuke used by the US/France/UK on a UN peacekeeping or coalition defense mission).]</span>
This is a thread about mounting tension between China and Japan because of various economic policies and sparked off by a history book with revisionist views on Japanese acts (I'd limit it to WW2, but there's also stuff about disputed islands, too).
I'd have to argue that there's some merit in Japanese concerns, if we found a Chinese sub lerking off the west coast we'd probably threaten China or at least invoke some UN defense measures. The fact it happens in Japan gives it little international attention, though. There's also the fact that there's a planned Japanese/US joint missle defense project planned (which might cover Taiwan), which China will not be happy with <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> .
The history text book just seems to be the spark. Although, I don't think any country should openly warrant national history books with revisionist history (although, last I heard the holocaust was a bit downplayed or glossed over in German textbooks [but still recognized as a gross attrocity]). Based on the quotations from the textbook from that article (which probably aren't direct quotations, but whatever), I think Japan should apologize...but that China should offer repairations for damaged Japanese property.
[I'm inclined to think that this riot is actually government sponsored...I think the tanks would be there already if it were actual citizen protest.]
<!--QuoteBegin-V MAN+Apr 17 2005, 09:51 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (V MAN @ Apr 17 2005, 09:51 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Bobku+Apr 17 2005, 03:04 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Bobku @ Apr 17 2005, 03:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> who cares whos got the nukes? if anyone uses one we're all dead!!
Nuclear war has to be the most stupid and pointless thing in the universe
for example it was posted that if chinese and usa went to war china/america would win. Well they along wiv every other country on the planet would lose.
a nuke is like a gun wiv 2 barrels, one pointing foward other pointing at the user. u shoot one person u going down too.
Nuclear bomb = dumbest wepon ever
only after the last forest is destoyed only after the last river has dried up will we realise that money cannot be eaten <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> No it isn't the dumbest weapon ever. It's a very effective means of killing lots of your enemies in one hit while saving you the trouble of having to commit large numbers of your own forces to do the same job.
You also don't realise that it was nukes that have kept the peace throughout the latter half of the 20th century by being the only thing that kept the Reds in check. No nukes and you can bet your arse that old Joe Stalin would have rolled the red army right accross western Europe after the fall of Germany, there would have been no way in hell that the US and UK could have held them back....we would have got our butts kicked. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> pfft.
The US and UK could have held... hell, it was mainly the US and UK that pushed back the ENTIRE Axis forces...
US kicked Japans **** in the Pacific, starting mainly after the victory at the Battle of Midway, in which we sank a large portion of their sea forces (their primary Carrier Task Force)
UK took out the German Luftwaffe and developed Chaff and Radar, which aided us and the UK greatly
US and UK liberated France, which basicly said thank you then tried to help with what little they had left
From there, Germany attacked Russia, which sealed IT's fate by starting a war on a 2nd front
<!--QuoteBegin-BulletHead+Apr 17 2005, 04:11 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BulletHead @ Apr 17 2005, 04:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-V MAN+Apr 17 2005, 09:51 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (V MAN @ Apr 17 2005, 09:51 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Bobku+Apr 17 2005, 03:04 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Bobku @ Apr 17 2005, 03:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> who cares whos got the nukes? if anyone uses one we're all dead!!
Nuclear war has to be the most stupid and pointless thing in the universe
for example it was posted that if chinese and usa went to war china/america would win. Well they along wiv every other country on the planet would lose.
a nuke is like a gun wiv 2 barrels, one pointing foward other pointing at the user. u shoot one person u going down too.
Nuclear bomb = dumbest wepon ever
only after the last forest is destoyed only after the last river has dried up will we realise that money cannot be eaten <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> No it isn't the dumbest weapon ever. It's a very effective means of killing lots of your enemies in one hit while saving you the trouble of having to commit large numbers of your own forces to do the same job.
You also don't realise that it was nukes that have kept the peace throughout the latter half of the 20th century by being the only thing that kept the Reds in check. No nukes and you can bet your arse that old Joe Stalin would have rolled the red army right accross western Europe after the fall of Germany, there would have been no way in hell that the US and UK could have held them back....we would have got our butts kicked. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> pfft.
The US and UK could have held... hell, it was mainly the US and UK that pushed back the ENTIRE Axis forces... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah, after Hitler and Stalin had beaten each other half to death in the East first, while we waited for the perfect opportunity to strike.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->US kicked Japans **** in the Pacific, starting mainly after the victory at the Battle of Midway, in which we sank a large portion of their sea forces (their primary Carrier Task Force)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Fighting the Russians would have been much different. For one thing, the naval/arial battle in the Pacific played exactly to our strengths. We did NOT have a very large or strong army, however. That was the Ruskies' forte.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->UK took out the German Luftwaffe and developed Chaff and Radar, which aided us and the UK greatly<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Once again, US and UK did well in the skies, but the Russians had superior forces on the ground, which kinda helps when you want to conquer a nation.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->US and UK liberated France, which basicly said thank you then tried to help with what little they had left<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> With a sneak attack on a relatively weak Germany, compared to what the Russians were fighting.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->From there, Germany attacked Russia, which sealed IT's fate by starting a war on a 2nd front<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Now you just got your history wrong. The Germans attacked Russia way before D-Day. They invaded on June 22, 1941 to be precise. June 6, 1944 was D-Day. That's almost 2 years; the Russians held out against the entire German army for 2 years, and they still had steam after that to push forward to Berlin as soon as WE opened up the second front.
Well, in fact, I'd even say that the Russians made the winning move, much moreso than the US/UK. Sure, they were losing many men, but everyone knows that the war on two fronts was also stressing the Germans, ever since the first days of Barbarossa, when they were faced with horrible terrain. It might have been another story if Mussolini wasn't such an incapable leader in Greece, maybe then the Germans could have gotten the Russians. But the Russians stood more than half a year at Stalingrad before the Germans gave up Also, remember it is the Russians who walked into Berlin. They swept through the whole east after the germans just collapsed.
Also, the only reason the US used nukes in Japan is because they didn't fear retaliation, didn't want to lose too many US soldiers (island-hopping) and wanted to show off their brand new arsenal to the Russians. They asked them to attack Japan somewhere in the middle of August, and right before the Russians were going to attack Japan, the US drops the two nukes, preventing a Russian invasion and preventing them from getting a huge chunk of the Kuriles.
See, ever since the Russians got the nukes as well, the US can't just nuke them because of fear. They're scared of being nuked. For example, you nuke a country, in response that country nukes NYC. In response to that, a number of countries go to side with the US and nuke who they think is responsible. Eventually, some terrorist will think it's the perfect time to nuke a number of major cities. A couple of days later, a lot of us are dead, the rest are left in the ruins of our world, either irridiating to death or languishing at our destroyed society without a hope for any economic recovery.
In relation to the topic, I find it normal that Japan needs to understand its errors. For one, it is only truth, and they cannot deny their past. It isn't the current japanese people that are in fault, just a number of ancestors. If they recognize their errors, then it can only be a turn for the better. However, I can't stop but feel that this is a push of the government on the Chinese. As if Tiananmen never happened, heh? The Japanese aren't the only ones who made atrocities.
I know that I have been beaten to this by sky, but I might as well help in the correcting.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The US and UK could have held... hell, it was mainly the US and UK that pushed back the ENTIRE Axis forces...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, Hitler sent the <b>vast</b> majority of his forces into the Eastern Front once he had taken Western Europe (And remember how easily he flattened us. If the head of the Luftwaffe (Temporary lapse of memory, was it Goring?) had not been so arrogant, Hitler would have annihilated the entire British army at Dunkirk. Once Hitler had Western Europe under his control (more of less), he invaded Russia. His objective was <b>always</b> to expand into the East, and the Russians took the full brunt of the German attack.
What we pushed back on D-Day was a very small occupying German force. Hell, we waited for a very long time before doing that, just to make sure Russia was as weak as possible before we opened a second front.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->UK took out the German Luftwaffe and developed Chaff and Radar, which aided us and the UK greatly<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Despite the Luftwaffe having the numerical advantage, the British had so many strategic and tactical advantages that it almost evened the odds. Hell, if Hitler had not changed his targets to London at the last second, the RAF airfields in Southern England would all be gone, and with that any hopes that the British had of winning the air war.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> US and UK liberated France, which basically said thank you then tried to help with what little they had left<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, the message was more like "Take that Stalin!". Instead of invading earlier, we waited until the absolute last possible moment to invade, mainly to weaken the Russians as much as possible while still winning the war.
The reds would have trampled all over Europe if it was not for American missiles in places such as Turkey and Britain. The Russians still had a numerical advantage, they had a lot more countries to draw troops from, they had good equipment and a good navy. They could have easily stopped enough American troops from reinforcing Europe in time to march over Paris and London.
Back onto topic, I can see why the Chinese are annoyed, but the violence is going over the top, I think. If China were to invade Japan, they would definitely win the war, provided nobody else came to their aid. However, even if the rest of the world turned a blind eye when it came to physical help, they would certainly impose sanctions against China. The world can do without Chinese goods (I'm sure that the rest of Asia would be amazingly happy to start taking the burden) but China can definitely not do without Foreign currency. A war with Japan might help them strategically, but it would be economic suicide.
<!--QuoteBegin-TheMuffinMan+Apr 17 2005, 05:02 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TheMuffinMan @ Apr 17 2005, 05:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Back onto topic, I can see why the Chinese are annoyed, but the violence is going over the top, I think. If China were to invade Japan, they would definitely win the war, provided nobody else came to their aid. However, even if the rest of the world turned a blind eye when it came to physical help, they would certainly impose sanctions against China. The world can do without Chinese goods (I'm sure that the rest of Asia would be amazingly happy to start taking the burden) but China can definitely not do without Foreign currency. A war with Japan might help them strategically, but it would be economic suicide <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> If the Chinese were to invade Japan, they would not definately win the war. We (the US) have a buttload of military bases there, so by attacking Japan they would be attacking the US. There are 4 bases in Okinawa alone, and that island is only a little over a square mile in size. Mainland Japan has many many more. I should know I lived there... I even got to see an SR-71 before they were decommisioned(woot).
<!--QuoteBegin-TheMuffinMan+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TheMuffinMan)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If China were to invade Japan, they would definitely win the war, <b>provided nobody else came to their aid</b><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
China will not make any agressive move (exept agressive diplomatic behavior) until they have fully closed the technological gap to western armed forces and fully established their economic potential, which probably will happen around one or two decades from now on. Then, I would start to worry about Taiwan first, before ever to think about Japans future...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->No YOU are wrong their weapons tech is inferior to that of the NATO militaries, the Chinese are at least a decade behind NATO perhaps more when it comes to weapons technology.
Giving ONE example of a tank they have developed (which doesn't look or sound all that great tbh) doesn't make them suddenly our equals on the battlefield.....
V-Man, calm down. Sure they are momentarily behind western armed forces, but your claim about second hand russian equipment is just false. They take foreign technology, rebuild and improve it. The Japanese were once belittled for only copying western technology, and then: BANG! Suddenly they run over us with complete new and innovative technology and produce it cheaper than we ever can hope to do.
The same will happen with china maybe a decade or two from now on.
<a href='http://world.guns.ru/assault/as40-e.htm' target='_blank'>USA's XM-29 OICW, For Comparison</a> <a href='http://world.guns.ru/assault/as18-e.htm' target='_blank'>USA's M16, Also For Comparison</a>
For those of you too lazy to look at all of those links: QBZ-95 <i>Weight (Unloaded):</i> 3.4 Kg <i>Rate of Fire:</i> 650 RPM <i>Magazine Capacity:</i> 30 Rounds <i>Barrel Length:</i> 520 mm
OICW (Regular/HE Rounds) <i>Weight (Unloaded):</i> 5.5 Kg <i>Rate of Fire:</i> ? / ? <i>Magazine Capacity:</i> 20 or 30 Rounds / 6 Rounds <i>Barrel Length:</i> 250 mm / 460 mm
And a quick picture of the 5.56 ammo and the OICW's 20mm HE rounds.
Here you can see some interesting similarities to western designs. Just to explain how the Chinese develope their technologies as copies of foreign designs.
Nuclear war has to be the most stupid and pointless thing in the universe
for example it was posted that if chinese and usa went to war china/america would win. Well they along wiv every other country on the planet would lose.
a nuke is like a gun wiv 2 barrels, one pointing foward other pointing at the user. u shoot one person u going down too.
Nuclear bomb = dumbest wepon ever
only after the last forest is destoyed only after the last river has dried up will we realise that money cannot be eaten <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> No it isn't the dumbest weapon ever. It's a very effective means of killing lots of your enemies in one hit while saving you the trouble of having to commit large numbers of your own forces to do the same job.
You also don't realise that it was nukes that have kept the peace throughout the latter half of the 20th century by being the only thing that kept the Reds in check. No nukes and you can bet your arse that old Joe Stalin would have rolled the red army right accross western Europe after the fall of Germany, there would have been no way in hell that the US and UK could have held them back....we would have got our butts kicked. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> pfft.
The US and UK could have held... hell, it was mainly the US and UK that pushed back the ENTIRE Axis forces... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah, after Hitler and Stalin had beaten each other half to death in the East first, while we waited for the perfect opportunity to strike.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->US kicked Japans **** in the Pacific, starting mainly after the victory at the Battle of Midway, in which we sank a large portion of their sea forces (their primary Carrier Task Force)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Fighting the Russians would have been much different. For one thing, the naval/arial battle in the Pacific played exactly to our strengths. We did NOT have a very large or strong army, however. That was the Ruskies' forte.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->UK took out the German Luftwaffe and developed Chaff and Radar, which aided us and the UK greatly<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Once again, US and UK did well in the skies, but the Russians had superior forces on the ground, which kinda helps when you want to conquer a nation.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->US and UK liberated France, which basicly said thank you then tried to help with what little they had left<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> With a sneak attack on a relatively weak Germany, compared to what the Russians were fighting.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->From there, Germany attacked Russia, which sealed IT's fate by starting a war on a 2nd front<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Now you just got your history wrong. The Germans attacked Russia way before D-Day. They invaded on June 22, 1941 to be precise. June 6, 1944 was D-Day. That's almost 2 years; the Russians held out against the entire German army for 2 years, and they still had steam after that to push forward to Berlin as soon as WE opened up the second front. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> *blinks* Oh yeah... got my years crossed <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Either way, the US had yet to be attacked on MAINLAND soil... our army would have been rallied rather quickly, and by sheer determination alone, would have won it, if need be.
Besides, we had the Atomic Bomb... as much as we'd have waited, should the need have arisen, we'd have nuked them... *shugs* much as I hate to say that
Of course, today, who needs a nuclear bomb? Scientists estimate that, by the end of this month, we'll have roughly enough anti-matter to power a trip to Alpha Centurai... which is, I believe, roughyl 14 kilo's...
Imagine the power of 14 kilo's of anti-matter detonating on Iraq/China/theworldingeneral would be XD Dun wanna mess with that now do ya?
<!--QuoteBegin-BulletHead+Apr 18 2005, 03:30 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BulletHead @ Apr 18 2005, 03:30 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Imagine the power of 14 kilo's of anti-matter detonating on Iraq/China/theworldingeneral would be XD Dun wanna mess with that now do ya? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Way to knock the Earth into the sun, you MOTHERFU-! *burstsintoflames*
See problem is... we're getting closer to TAW, Total Anihilation Weaponry... a single nuke won't destroy the planet... even a hundred nukes won't kill everyone
But a single, 246 kilo AntiMatter Warhead will... I forget what the power sum of that detonating would be, but it's something near that of a large supernova...
That's one thing that scares me about human nature. We care too much about our countries - it's important to look out for it, but would you be willing to kill the rest of the world just for revenge? If your country was nuked and completely devastated, and you knew the counterattack would kill just about everyone on the planet, would you still do it? If the answer is yes, I cannot respect you.
See problem is... we're getting closer to TAW, Total Anihilation Weaponry... a single nuke won't destroy the planet... even a hundred nukes won't kill everyone
But a single, 246 kilo AntiMatter Warhead will... I forget what the power sum of that detonating would be, but it's something near that of a large supernova... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Make sure it's headed right for my location, I don't want to limp away from that ****...
The US and UK could have held... hell, it was mainly the US and UK that pushed back the ENTIRE Axis forces...
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Erm no it wasn't, go read up on your history dude.
At the end of WW2 the Soviets had over 200 Divisions! All we had to oppose them was less than 100 British and US Divisons, I think we would have got our butts spanked tbh. The fear of nuclear attack was the only thing that kept them from rolling all the way to the Atlantic. Also the technological gap was probably in favour of the Soviets when it came to armour and infantry weapons, we had a slight advantage in quality of aircraft I think but again we were stupidly out numbered.
<!--QuoteBegin-Legat+Apr 18 2005, 12:55 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Legat @ Apr 18 2005, 12:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> China will not make any agressive move (exept agressive diplomatic behavior) until they have fully closed the technological gap to western armed forces and fully established their economic potential, which probably will happen around one or two decades from now on. Then, I would start to worry about Taiwan first, before ever to think about Japans future...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->No YOU are wrong their weapons tech is inferior to that of the NATO militaries, the Chinese are at least a decade behind NATO perhaps more when it comes to weapons technology.
Giving ONE example of a tank they have developed (which doesn't look or sound all that great tbh) doesn't make them suddenly our equals on the battlefield.....
V-Man, calm down. Sure they are momentarily behind western armed forces, but your claim about second hand russian equipment is just false. They take foreign technology, rebuild and improve it. The Japanese were once belittled for only copying western technology, and then: BANG! Suddenly they run over us with complete new and innovative technology and produce it cheaper than we ever can hope to do.
The same will happen with china maybe a decade or two from now on. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Read that
They are behind us and will remain there unless we either stop making advances so they can catch us up or they suddenly start making massive gains on a par with what Nazi German did in the 1930s - 1940s which quite frankly isn't going to happen.
Thy're still fudging their way though things we found out in the 1960s-1970s, building and SSN proved beyond them so they are buying obsolite kilo class boats off the Russians (who are probably laughing their **** off over that).
<!--QuoteBegin-theclam+Apr 16 2005, 10:20 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (theclam @ Apr 16 2005, 10:20 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Dunno, US would step in, conventional war however I put my money on china.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I hope you mean China vs. Japan, not China vs. USA. We would slaughter the Chinese. We've got a much much better airforce, better trained and equipped troops, much better C&C. The only advantage they've got is something that you'll remember if you've played Civ3: war weariness. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Russia has been selling parts, knowledge, and technology from their dying space program to the chinese for years... I have no doubt the US would win... but at what cost? They <i>would</i> nuke us if we were at war, and if you though Pearl Harbor or 9/11 was a big deal... whoahoho! Then you haven't seen anything yet. We would win but you are a fool to underestimate your enemy. The chinese have way more people than we do. There is something to be said for the power of a massive hoard of troops. And a nuke is not excatly what you would call a "sugrical" weapon. If they decided to be smart and scatter all around the world what are you going to do? Nuke the entire rest of the planet? Not while I'm alive.
People label things as WMDs but forget just how powerful Weapons of Mass Destruction really are. War is never something to joke about. Love increases the good side of the fifth force and hate increases the evil side of the fifth force.
It is best never to go to war unless you can win. Violence is the last option, but when you plan to fight you should never underestimate the enemy and be prepared to win. And the best victory is always the one that can be won without killing.
<!--QuoteBegin-TommyVercetti+Apr 18 2005, 03:59 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TommyVercetti @ Apr 18 2005, 03:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> That's one thing that scares me about human nature. We care too much about our countries - it's important to look out for it, but would you be willing to kill the rest of the world just for revenge? If your country was nuked and completely devastated, and you knew the counterattack would kill just about everyone on the planet, would you still do it? If the answer is yes, I cannot respect you. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> It would be much better if the entire planet was one united nation. Not just for wars or going after terrorism, but from a economic and human rights standpoint. A single international military/police force would be better for everyone.
You know what would be the very last nation to join the single global nation? The USA. Bet on it. The superpower would join last.
You know what would accelerate the process of all of Earth getting united? An alien invasion. I'm totally serious. As a matter of fact space travel and technology would become suddenly very, very important again.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->They are behind us and will remain there unless we either stop making advances so they can catch us up or they suddenly start making massive gains on a par with what Nazi German did in the 1930s - 1940s which quite frankly isn't going to happen.
Thy're still fudging their way though things we found out in the 1960s-1970s, building and SSN proved beyond them so they are buying obsolite kilo class boats off the Russians (who are probably laughing their **** off over that). <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
we'll talk about that in 5 years after the weapon sales restrictions have been lifted ...
I think you serilously underestimate the Asian mentality and resolve. Japan has managed to develope from a medieval feudal society with mainly agricultural economy to a modern industrial nation and colonial power within less than 50 years!
China was hindered to accomplish that by British colonialisation, internal power struggles after WW1 and the failure of communism. Now they have managed to reform their economy and society so they are no more hampereing themselvelves and there is nothing to stop them from becoming the major economic power of the second half of the 21 century. You can deny that, but it won't change that fact.
That they buy obsolete (from our PoV) military equipment is because their budget is limited at the given time. They cannot afford complete development of owns systems and they dont have to. They take them apart, rebuild it, improve it. And they are quick about this.
Comments
Actually your question is more than viable. Mitsubishi ( a Japanese company, most widely know for selling cars), for instance, is cofirmed to have bought 4 russian nuclear submarines for research purposes.
The security act from after WW2 deneis them Nuclear weapons or nuclear propulsion for warships. Also they do not have an official army to begin with. Its calles SDF (self-defense force) Yet its under the 4 best funded armies in the world.
They have the nessesary technology and material and I guess they had plenty of unofficial technology transfer from the US since tensions with China began to heat up.
The most interesting factor is, that very littel info about chinese military technology is official or even leaking. We know more about chinas Military capabilities than Japans <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
As for the post about Chinese inferior weapon technology: You are wrong.
China has began to develop own and complete new Weapon systems in the 80s. Right now its a matter of budget, but since their economy is growing exponentially and everybody in the world just begs to sell their stuff to them, it is a matter of time until they catch up to the west.
The most spectacular example is their MBT system, the T98 and the newer version T99.
Its based on the soviet T72, with completely redesigned turret and a far more reliable and powerful weapon. The most intruiging feature is a very sophisitcated active defense system, based on a very strong laser. The laser is mounted on the back of the turret, and is suposedly usable for wireless transmissions to other tanks.
The main purpose is to destroy or damadge the guiding systems of incoming missles, or the ones of the vehicle that lounched them. The tanks has sensors that detect lasers pointed at it and determine their source. Then, the defense system is automatically directed at it and emits a very strong laser that fries the emitter.
Theoretically, the weapon could also destroy the sensors of missles guided by other means than laser (e.g. infa-red or optical guidiance), that would require the tank to have an active radar system that scans for incoming objects.
here's a link to the T98, which is already outdated by the newer and heavier armored T99 or T89G variant. I only skimmed it, its the first one I found in english language, but it should do the trick.
<a href='http://www.china-defense.com/armor/type98/type98_1.html' target='_blank'>http://www.china-defense.com/armor/type98/type98_1.html</a>
We could have re-armed the German army; millions of well trained, freshly supplied troop’s fighting to defend their homeland from the dreaded commies would have put quite a dent in Stalin’s forces.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
well, thats what actually happend. without the war that is <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<i>The Bear and the Dragon</i> by Clancy is another one on the same topic. Of course, it gives up a bit of believability for entertainment value, but it's still rather good.
China has began to develop own and complete new Weapon systems in the 80s. Right now its a matter of budget, but since their economy is growing exponentially and everybody in the world just begs to sell their stuff to them, it is a matter of time until they catch up to the west.
The most spectacular example is their MBT system, the T98 and the newer version T99.
Its based on the soviet T72, with completely redesigned turret and a far more reliable and powerful weapon. The most intruiging feature is a very sophisitcated active defense system, based on a very strong laser. The laser is mounted on the back of the turret, and is suposedly usable for wireless transmissions to other tanks.
The main purpose is to destroy or damadge the guiding systems of incoming missles, or the ones of the vehicle that lounched them. The tanks has sensors that detect lasers pointed at it and determine their source. Then, the defense system is automatically directed at it and emits a very strong laser that fries the emitter.
Theoretically, the weapon could also destroy the sensors of missles guided by other means than laser (e.g. infa-red or optical guidiance), that would require the tank to have an active radar system that scans for incoming objects.
here's a link to the T98, which is already outdated by the newer and heavier armored T99 or T89G variant. I only skimmed it, its the first one I found in english language, but it should do the trick.
<a href='http://www.china-defense.com/armor/type98/type98_1.html' target='_blank'>http://www.china-defense.com/armor/type98/type98_1.html</a> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
No YOU are wrong their weapons tech is inferior to that of the NATO militaries, the Chinese are at least a decade behind NATO perhaps more when it comes to weapons technology.
Giving ONE example of a tank they have developed (which doesn't look or sound all that great tbh) doesn't make them suddenly our equals on the battlefield.....
Their Airforce and Navy are a sub-standard tbh consisting of 2nd hand Soviet planes or versions of said planes they have built themselves. As for their navy it's mostly Russian designs which while they better than what they had in the past they are still a generation behind what the west has.
Numbers is the only advantage China has
sure it kills a lot of your enemys at once. but what about all the radiation that affects your own country. crops will die, disfigured childern, dead animals and that will last for hundereds maybe even thousands of years. so it effectively wipes out not only your enemys but yourself and the rest of the world. meaning that the very u thing u fought to protect is what u just destroyed.
sure it kills a lot of your enemys at once. but what about all the radiation that affects your own country. crops will die, disfigured childern, dead animals and that will last for hundereds maybe even thousands of years. so it effectively wipes out not only your enemys but yourself and the rest of the world. meaning that the very u thing u fought to protect is what u just destroyed. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is not a nuclear weapons topic. Everyone here knows the primary and secondary effects of nuclear weapons. Everyone here knows the international consequences of using nuclear weapons.
<span style='font-size:4pt;line-height:100%'>[Just for you: Individual nuclear weapons are an exceptional weapon (for the purpose of most military applications), the modern problem stems from the fact that if you use one nuclear weapon your enemy (or their ally) will inevitably use one to realiate against you. They're also not likely to be used against sub-par forces by a democratic nation-state, because they would suffer from terrible international backlash (one of the reasons you'll never see a nuke used by the US/France/UK on a UN peacekeeping or coalition defense mission).]</span>
This is a thread about mounting tension between China and Japan because of various economic policies and sparked off by a history book with revisionist views on Japanese acts (I'd limit it to WW2, but there's also stuff about disputed islands, too).
I'd have to argue that there's some merit in Japanese concerns, if we found a Chinese sub lerking off the west coast we'd probably threaten China or at least invoke some UN defense measures. The fact it happens in Japan gives it little international attention, though. There's also the fact that there's a planned Japanese/US joint missle defense project planned (which might cover Taiwan), which China will not be happy with <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> .
The history text book just seems to be the spark. Although, I don't think any country should openly warrant national history books with revisionist history (although, last I heard the holocaust was a bit downplayed or glossed over in German textbooks [but still recognized as a gross attrocity]). Based on the quotations from the textbook from that article (which probably aren't direct quotations, but whatever), I think Japan should apologize...but that China should offer repairations for damaged Japanese property.
[I'm inclined to think that this riot is actually government sponsored...I think the tanks would be there already if it were actual citizen protest.]
Nuclear war has to be the most stupid and pointless thing in the universe
for example it was posted that if chinese and usa went to war china/america would win. Well they along wiv every other country on the planet would lose.
a nuke is like a gun wiv 2 barrels, one pointing foward other pointing at the user. u shoot one person u going down too.
Nuclear bomb = dumbest wepon ever
only after the last forest is destoyed
only after the last river has dried up
will we realise that money cannot be eaten <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No it isn't the dumbest weapon ever. It's a very effective means of killing lots of your enemies in one hit while saving you the trouble of having to commit large numbers of your own forces to do the same job.
You also don't realise that it was nukes that have kept the peace throughout the latter half of the 20th century by being the only thing that kept the Reds in check. No nukes and you can bet your arse that old Joe Stalin would have rolled the red army right accross western Europe after the fall of Germany, there would have been no way in hell that the US and UK could have held them back....we would have got our butts kicked. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
pfft.
The US and UK could have held... hell, it was mainly the US and UK that pushed back the ENTIRE Axis forces...
US kicked Japans **** in the Pacific, starting mainly after the victory at the Battle of Midway, in which we sank a large portion of their sea forces (their primary Carrier Task Force)
UK took out the German Luftwaffe and developed Chaff and Radar, which aided us and the UK greatly
US and UK liberated France, which basicly said thank you then tried to help with what little they had left
From there, Germany attacked Russia, which sealed IT's fate by starting a war on a 2nd front
Nuclear war has to be the most stupid and pointless thing in the universe
for example it was posted that if chinese and usa went to war china/america would win. Well they along wiv every other country on the planet would lose.
a nuke is like a gun wiv 2 barrels, one pointing foward other pointing at the user. u shoot one person u going down too.
Nuclear bomb = dumbest wepon ever
only after the last forest is destoyed
only after the last river has dried up
will we realise that money cannot be eaten <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No it isn't the dumbest weapon ever. It's a very effective means of killing lots of your enemies in one hit while saving you the trouble of having to commit large numbers of your own forces to do the same job.
You also don't realise that it was nukes that have kept the peace throughout the latter half of the 20th century by being the only thing that kept the Reds in check. No nukes and you can bet your arse that old Joe Stalin would have rolled the red army right accross western Europe after the fall of Germany, there would have been no way in hell that the US and UK could have held them back....we would have got our butts kicked. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
pfft.
The US and UK could have held... hell, it was mainly the US and UK that pushed back the ENTIRE Axis forces... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, after Hitler and Stalin had beaten each other half to death in the East first, while we waited for the perfect opportunity to strike.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->US kicked Japans **** in the Pacific, starting mainly after the victory at the Battle of Midway, in which we sank a large portion of their sea forces (their primary Carrier Task Force)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fighting the Russians would have been much different. For one thing, the naval/arial battle in the Pacific played exactly to our strengths. We did NOT have a very large or strong army, however. That was the Ruskies' forte.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->UK took out the German Luftwaffe and developed Chaff and Radar, which aided us and the UK greatly<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Once again, US and UK did well in the skies, but the Russians had superior forces on the ground, which kinda helps when you want to conquer a nation.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->US and UK liberated France, which basicly said thank you then tried to help with what little they had left<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
With a sneak attack on a relatively weak Germany, compared to what the Russians were fighting.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->From there, Germany attacked Russia, which sealed IT's fate by starting a war on a 2nd front<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now you just got your history wrong. The Germans attacked Russia way before D-Day. They invaded on June 22, 1941 to be precise. June 6, 1944 was D-Day. That's almost 2 years; the Russians held out against the entire German army for 2 years, and they still had steam after that to push forward to Berlin as soon as WE opened up the second front.
Also, remember it is the Russians who walked into Berlin. They swept through the whole east after the germans just collapsed.
Also, the only reason the US used nukes in Japan is because they didn't fear retaliation, didn't want to lose too many US soldiers (island-hopping) and wanted to show off their brand new arsenal to the Russians. They asked them to attack Japan somewhere in the middle of August, and right before the Russians were going to attack Japan, the US drops the two nukes, preventing a Russian invasion and preventing them from getting a huge chunk of the Kuriles.
See, ever since the Russians got the nukes as well, the US can't just nuke them because of fear. They're scared of being nuked. For example, you nuke a country, in response that country nukes NYC. In response to that, a number of countries go to side with the US and nuke who they think is responsible. Eventually, some terrorist will think it's the perfect time to nuke a number of major cities. A couple of days later, a lot of us are dead, the rest are left in the ruins of our world, either irridiating to death or languishing at our destroyed society without a hope for any economic recovery.
In relation to the topic, I find it normal that Japan needs to understand its errors. For one, it is only truth, and they cannot deny their past. It isn't the current japanese people that are in fault, just a number of ancestors. If they recognize their errors, then it can only be a turn for the better.
However, I can't stop but feel that this is a push of the government on the Chinese. As if Tiananmen never happened, heh? The Japanese aren't the only ones who made atrocities.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The US and UK could have held... hell, it was mainly the US and UK that pushed back the ENTIRE Axis forces...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, Hitler sent the <b>vast</b> majority of his forces into the Eastern Front once he had taken Western Europe (And remember how easily he flattened us. If the head of the Luftwaffe (Temporary lapse of memory, was it Goring?) had not been so arrogant, Hitler would have annihilated the entire British army at Dunkirk. Once Hitler had Western Europe under his control (more of less), he invaded Russia. His objective was <b>always</b> to expand into the East, and the Russians took the full brunt of the German attack.
What we pushed back on D-Day was a very small occupying German force. Hell, we waited for a very long time before doing that, just to make sure Russia was as weak as possible before we opened a second front.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->UK took out the German Luftwaffe and developed Chaff and Radar, which aided us and the UK greatly<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Despite the Luftwaffe having the numerical advantage, the British had so many strategic and tactical advantages that it almost evened the odds. Hell, if Hitler had not changed his targets to London at the last second, the RAF airfields in Southern England would all be gone, and with that any hopes that the British had of winning the air war.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
US and UK liberated France, which basically said thank you then tried to help with what little they had left<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, the message was more like "Take that Stalin!". Instead of invading earlier, we waited until the absolute last possible moment to invade, mainly to weaken the Russians as much as possible while still winning the war.
The reds would have trampled all over Europe if it was not for American missiles in places such as Turkey and Britain. The Russians still had a numerical advantage, they had a lot more countries to draw troops from, they had good equipment and a good navy. They could have easily stopped enough American troops from reinforcing Europe in time to march over Paris and London.
Back onto topic, I can see why the Chinese are annoyed, but the violence is going over the top, I think. If China were to invade Japan, they would definitely win the war, provided nobody else came to their aid. However, even if the rest of the world turned a blind eye when it came to physical help, they would certainly impose sanctions against China. The world can do without Chinese goods (I'm sure that the rest of Asia would be amazingly happy to start taking the burden) but China can definitely not do without Foreign currency. A war with Japan might help them strategically, but it would be economic suicide.
If the Chinese were to invade Japan, they would not definately win the war. We (the US) have a buttload of military bases there, so by attacking Japan they would be attacking the US. There are 4 bases in Okinawa alone, and that island is only a little over a square mile in size. Mainland Japan has many many more. I should know I lived there... I even got to see an SR-71 before they were decommisioned(woot).
<!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->No YOU are wrong their weapons tech is inferior to that of the NATO militaries, the Chinese are at least a decade behind NATO perhaps more when it comes to weapons technology.
Giving ONE example of a tank they have developed (which doesn't look or sound all that great tbh) doesn't make them suddenly our equals on the battlefield.....
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V-Man, calm down. Sure they are momentarily behind western armed forces, but your claim about second hand russian equipment is just false. They take foreign technology, rebuild and improve it. The Japanese were once belittled for only copying western technology, and then: BANG!
Suddenly they run over us with complete new and innovative technology and produce it cheaper than we ever can hope to do.
The same will happen with china maybe a decade or two from now on.
<a href='http://world.guns.ru/assault/as49-e.htm' target='_blank'>Type 56</a>
<a href='http://world.guns.ru/assault/as48-e.htm' target='_blank'>Type 68</a>
<a href='http://world.guns.ru/assault/as71-e.htm' target='_blank'>Type 81</a>
<a href='http://world.guns.ru/assault/as28-e.htm' target='_blank'>Type 86</a>
<a href='http://world.guns.ru/assault/as39-e.htm' target='_blank'>QBZ-95</a>
<a href='http://world.guns.ru/assault/as40-e.htm' target='_blank'>USA's XM-29 OICW, For Comparison</a>
<a href='http://world.guns.ru/assault/as18-e.htm' target='_blank'>USA's M16, Also For Comparison</a>
Ammunition:
(QBZ-95's) <b>5.8x42mm</b>
(OICW's) <b>5.56x45mm NATO</b>
(OICW's) <b>20x85mm (HE)</b>
(M16 A2's) <b>5.56x45mm NATO</b>
For those of you too lazy to look at all of those links:
QBZ-95
<i>Weight (Unloaded):</i> 3.4 Kg
<i>Rate of Fire:</i> 650 RPM
<i>Magazine Capacity:</i> 30 Rounds
<i>Barrel Length:</i> 520 mm
OICW (Regular/HE Rounds)
<i>Weight (Unloaded):</i> 5.5 Kg
<i>Rate of Fire:</i> ? / ?
<i>Magazine Capacity:</i> 20 or 30 Rounds / 6 Rounds
<i>Barrel Length:</i> 250 mm / 460 mm
And a quick picture of the 5.56 ammo and the OICW's 20mm HE rounds.
<img src='http://world.guns.ru/assault/oicw3.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
Just to explain how the Chinese develope their technologies as copies of foreign
designs.
<a href='http://world.guns.ru/assault/as39-e.htm' target='_blank'>QBZ-95/97</a>
<a href='http://world.guns.ru/assault/as39-e.htm' target='_blank'>FAMAS</a>
<a href='http://world.guns.ru/assault/as22-e.htm' target='_blank'>L85A2 </a>
Nuclear war has to be the most stupid and pointless thing in the universe
for example it was posted that if chinese and usa went to war china/america would win. Well they along wiv every other country on the planet would lose.
a nuke is like a gun wiv 2 barrels, one pointing foward other pointing at the user. u shoot one person u going down too.
Nuclear bomb = dumbest wepon ever
only after the last forest is destoyed
only after the last river has dried up
will we realise that money cannot be eaten <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No it isn't the dumbest weapon ever. It's a very effective means of killing lots of your enemies in one hit while saving you the trouble of having to commit large numbers of your own forces to do the same job.
You also don't realise that it was nukes that have kept the peace throughout the latter half of the 20th century by being the only thing that kept the Reds in check. No nukes and you can bet your arse that old Joe Stalin would have rolled the red army right accross western Europe after the fall of Germany, there would have been no way in hell that the US and UK could have held them back....we would have got our butts kicked. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
pfft.
The US and UK could have held... hell, it was mainly the US and UK that pushed back the ENTIRE Axis forces... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, after Hitler and Stalin had beaten each other half to death in the East first, while we waited for the perfect opportunity to strike.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->US kicked Japans **** in the Pacific, starting mainly after the victory at the Battle of Midway, in which we sank a large portion of their sea forces (their primary Carrier Task Force)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fighting the Russians would have been much different. For one thing, the naval/arial battle in the Pacific played exactly to our strengths. We did NOT have a very large or strong army, however. That was the Ruskies' forte.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->UK took out the German Luftwaffe and developed Chaff and Radar, which aided us and the UK greatly<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Once again, US and UK did well in the skies, but the Russians had superior forces on the ground, which kinda helps when you want to conquer a nation.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->US and UK liberated France, which basicly said thank you then tried to help with what little they had left<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
With a sneak attack on a relatively weak Germany, compared to what the Russians were fighting.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->From there, Germany attacked Russia, which sealed IT's fate by starting a war on a 2nd front<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now you just got your history wrong. The Germans attacked Russia way before D-Day. They invaded on June 22, 1941 to be precise. June 6, 1944 was D-Day. That's almost 2 years; the Russians held out against the entire German army for 2 years, and they still had steam after that to push forward to Berlin as soon as WE opened up the second front. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
*blinks* Oh yeah... got my years crossed <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Either way, the US had yet to be attacked on MAINLAND soil... our army would have been rallied rather quickly, and by sheer determination alone, would have won it, if need be.
Besides, we had the Atomic Bomb... as much as we'd have waited, should the need have arisen, we'd have nuked them... *shugs* much as I hate to say that
Of course, today, who needs a nuclear bomb? Scientists estimate that, by the end of this month, we'll have roughly enough anti-matter to power a trip to Alpha Centurai... which is, I believe, roughyl 14 kilo's...
Imagine the power of 14 kilo's of anti-matter detonating on Iraq/China/theworldingeneral would be XD Dun wanna mess with that now do ya?
Way to knock the Earth into the sun, you MOTHERFU-! *burstsintoflames*
See problem is... we're getting closer to TAW, Total Anihilation Weaponry... a single nuke won't destroy the planet... even a hundred nukes won't kill everyone
But a single, 246 kilo AntiMatter Warhead will... I forget what the power sum of that detonating would be, but it's something near that of a large supernova...
~ DarkATi
~ DarkATi <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
lol god
See problem is... we're getting closer to TAW, Total Anihilation Weaponry... a single nuke won't destroy the planet... even a hundred nukes won't kill everyone
But a single, 246 kilo AntiMatter Warhead will... I forget what the power sum of that detonating would be, but it's something near that of a large supernova... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Make sure it's headed right for my location, I don't want to limp away from that ****...
The US and UK could have held... hell, it was mainly the US and UK that pushed back the ENTIRE Axis forces...
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Erm no it wasn't, go read up on your history dude.
At the end of WW2 the Soviets had over 200 Divisions! All we had to oppose them was less than 100 British and US Divisons, I think we would have got our butts spanked tbh. The fear of nuclear attack was the only thing that kept them from rolling all the way to the Atlantic. Also the technological gap was probably in favour of the Soviets when it came to armour and infantry weapons, we had a slight advantage in quality of aircraft I think but again we were stupidly out numbered.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->No YOU are wrong their weapons tech is inferior to that of the NATO militaries, the Chinese are at least a decade behind NATO perhaps more when it comes to weapons technology.
Giving ONE example of a tank they have developed (which doesn't look or sound all that great tbh) doesn't make them suddenly our equals on the battlefield.....
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
V-Man, calm down. Sure they are momentarily behind western armed forces, but your claim about second hand russian equipment is just false. They take foreign technology, rebuild and improve it. The Japanese were once belittled for only copying western technology, and then: BANG!
Suddenly they run over us with complete new and innovative technology and produce it cheaper than we ever can hope to do.
The same will happen with china maybe a decade or two from now on. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Read that
<a href='http://www.globalsecurity.org/org/news/2002/021118-china01.htm' target='_blank'>Link</a>
and that
<a href='http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/china/aew-prc.htm' target='_blank'>Link</a>
They are behind us and will remain there unless we either stop making advances so they can catch us up or they suddenly start making massive gains on a par with what Nazi German did in the 1930s - 1940s which quite frankly isn't going to happen.
Thy're still fudging their way though things we found out in the 1960s-1970s, building and SSN proved beyond them so they are buying obsolite kilo class boats off the Russians (who are probably laughing their **** off over that).
I hope you mean China vs. Japan, not China vs. USA. We would slaughter the Chinese. We've got a much much better airforce, better trained and equipped troops, much better C&C. The only advantage they've got is something that you'll remember if you've played Civ3: war weariness. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Russia has been selling parts, knowledge, and technology from their dying space program to the chinese for years... I have no doubt the US would win... but at what cost? They <i>would</i> nuke us if we were at war, and if you though Pearl Harbor or 9/11 was a big deal... whoahoho! Then you haven't seen anything yet. We would win but you are a fool to underestimate your enemy. The chinese have way more people than we do. There is something to be said for the power of a massive hoard of troops. And a nuke is not excatly what you would call a "sugrical" weapon. If they decided to be smart and scatter all around the world what are you going to do? Nuke the entire rest of the planet? Not while I'm alive.
People label things as WMDs but forget just how powerful Weapons of Mass Destruction really are. War is never something to joke about. Love increases the good side of the fifth force and hate increases the evil side of the fifth force.
It is best never to go to war unless you can win. Violence is the last option, but when you plan to fight you should never underestimate the enemy and be prepared to win. And the best victory is always the one that can be won without killing.
It would be much better if the entire planet was one united nation. Not just for wars or going after terrorism, but from a economic and human rights standpoint. A single international military/police force would be better for everyone.
You know what would be the very last nation to join the single global nation? The USA. Bet on it. The superpower would join last.
You know what would accelerate the process of all of Earth getting united? An alien invasion. I'm totally serious. As a matter of fact space travel and technology would become suddenly very, very important again.
Thy're still fudging their way though things we found out in the 1960s-1970s, building and SSN proved beyond them so they are buying obsolite kilo class boats off the Russians (who are probably laughing their **** off over that). <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
we'll talk about that in 5 years after the weapon sales restrictions have been lifted ...
I think you serilously underestimate the Asian mentality and resolve. Japan has managed to develope from a medieval feudal society with mainly agricultural economy to a modern industrial nation and colonial power within less than 50 years!
China was hindered to accomplish that by British colonialisation, internal power struggles after WW1 and the failure of communism.
Now they have managed to reform their economy and society so they are no more hampereing themselvelves and there is nothing to stop them from becoming the major economic power of the second half of the 21 century. You can deny that, but it won't change that fact.
That they buy obsolete (from our PoV) military equipment is because their budget is limited at the given time. They cannot afford complete development of owns systems and they dont have to. They take them apart, rebuild it, improve it. And they are quick about this.