Competitive Demos Showing Imbalance?
Garet_Jax
Join Date: 2003-02-23 Member: 13870Members, Constellation
Join Date: 2003-02-23 Member: 13870Members, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">Please Help Ananlyse!</div> dema is going to have my arse for this, but I had to show it to people.
Since 3.0, marine wins have been few and far between. I've yet to put my figure on it (at first I thought it was due to skulks having the ability to frag, now I'm thinking it's because of focus). This demo shows my clan take on "Team Fantasy".
Now, no disrespect to Team Fantasy (I'm told at one point they had a "knife" player), but I think it's fair to say that in b5 we would have taken the 2 rounds attached below (both show our marine rounds, on "our" map ns_eclipse, and "their" map ns_lost).
I've been keeping quiet (until now) because the phrase "adapt or die" totally applies to a game update that has balance changes, and i 100% agree. However, I'm trying to figure out <b>how</b> to adapt. For the life of me- I don't know how marines are expected to kill a hive anymore. On those demos, we try:
- Ninja PG + SG and catalyst rush.
- JP + SG rush
- HA train
- Siege
I really can't think of many more ways to take down a hive.
Now, I realise the following is extremely big headed; and anyone reading this who knows me will think less of me for it- but it's my belief that our team was more skillful than their team. Transfer our skills to a balanced game like C-S, and it's my view that we'd win hands down. I've not even included our alien demos, becuase we thumped them (we even started ns_lost as the aliens not knowing what roles we were playing as, nor what chamber we would put down first; as we were in a huff over the marine rounds. We still won with no organisation).
I think proof of this is shown by the amount of times I (or whomever I spectate when I'm dead) successfully ninja our way into hives (but dont discount this as a lack of teamwork. We stuck together when we needed to).
So far, this probably sounds like a "waaah, we can't own like we used to" whine. But let me lower myself a little: we are not as good as the BaconMen. For those who know EU play, they are probably one of the last 2 true "pro" clans remaining (along with knife). We cannot compete with them. Three weeks ago we played them on ns_eclipse and won our alien round simply becuase we decided to use SCs, and after building the hive I evolved to a focus fade. No-one can kill a focus fade who knows the mechanics behind a hit-and-run target with large health, a devasting melee attack, and fast mobility. We had no right to win a round against a clan much stronger than us.
So please, take a look at these demos and tell me if you agree or disagree with me.
<span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'><span style='color:yellow'>Oh, some things about the demos
-I'm playing with 200ms ping (gg cheap UK ISPs). Proof is shown on the scoreboard and my 2 LagFrags on the skulks attacking the Computer Core PG on "1.dem". That explains why it takes me 30-40 bullets to kill a skulk (yea ok, and my crap aim).
-Any team-chat talk related to fellow team-mates is all taken in good humour- we've all known each other for a long time.
-Apologies for my rant at the end of eclipse, and one of our players' (continuous <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> ) rants. At this point we were losing our temper (I know losing my temper over a video game is silly, but, meh...)
-Yes, I know I often switch from my LMG to my pistol with over a quarter of a clip remaining. I've been playing this game for 29.5 months, yet I grew up on the Half-Life 1 SMG clip size <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
-Is it me or do I spend more time looking at the minimap than the actual 1st person view?
-I take back my team_talk rant about 4 minute fades. They happened prior to 3.0 and thus I don't have a problem with it.
-If it seems like I do something totally random, it's becuase our voice communication is done using an external program, and isn't included in the attachments.</span></span>
<a href='http://www.brywright.co.uk/nsforum/index.php?act=Attach&type=post&id=1330' target='_blank'>The 2 demos, courtesy of BryWright.co.uk</a> (9.4Mb)
(Many thanks to Bry of <a href='http://www.brywright.co.uk' target='_blank'>Bry's NS</a> for hosting this file, and the last remaining fun NS community in the UK)
Oh, <b>please</b> look at the demos before you post; I actually find <i>watching</i> competitive demos more fun than <i>playing</i> the average pub game; and they last less than 15mins each.
Since 3.0, marine wins have been few and far between. I've yet to put my figure on it (at first I thought it was due to skulks having the ability to frag, now I'm thinking it's because of focus). This demo shows my clan take on "Team Fantasy".
Now, no disrespect to Team Fantasy (I'm told at one point they had a "knife" player), but I think it's fair to say that in b5 we would have taken the 2 rounds attached below (both show our marine rounds, on "our" map ns_eclipse, and "their" map ns_lost).
I've been keeping quiet (until now) because the phrase "adapt or die" totally applies to a game update that has balance changes, and i 100% agree. However, I'm trying to figure out <b>how</b> to adapt. For the life of me- I don't know how marines are expected to kill a hive anymore. On those demos, we try:
- Ninja PG + SG and catalyst rush.
- JP + SG rush
- HA train
- Siege
I really can't think of many more ways to take down a hive.
Now, I realise the following is extremely big headed; and anyone reading this who knows me will think less of me for it- but it's my belief that our team was more skillful than their team. Transfer our skills to a balanced game like C-S, and it's my view that we'd win hands down. I've not even included our alien demos, becuase we thumped them (we even started ns_lost as the aliens not knowing what roles we were playing as, nor what chamber we would put down first; as we were in a huff over the marine rounds. We still won with no organisation).
I think proof of this is shown by the amount of times I (or whomever I spectate when I'm dead) successfully ninja our way into hives (but dont discount this as a lack of teamwork. We stuck together when we needed to).
So far, this probably sounds like a "waaah, we can't own like we used to" whine. But let me lower myself a little: we are not as good as the BaconMen. For those who know EU play, they are probably one of the last 2 true "pro" clans remaining (along with knife). We cannot compete with them. Three weeks ago we played them on ns_eclipse and won our alien round simply becuase we decided to use SCs, and after building the hive I evolved to a focus fade. No-one can kill a focus fade who knows the mechanics behind a hit-and-run target with large health, a devasting melee attack, and fast mobility. We had no right to win a round against a clan much stronger than us.
So please, take a look at these demos and tell me if you agree or disagree with me.
<span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'><span style='color:yellow'>Oh, some things about the demos
-I'm playing with 200ms ping (gg cheap UK ISPs). Proof is shown on the scoreboard and my 2 LagFrags on the skulks attacking the Computer Core PG on "1.dem". That explains why it takes me 30-40 bullets to kill a skulk (yea ok, and my crap aim).
-Any team-chat talk related to fellow team-mates is all taken in good humour- we've all known each other for a long time.
-Apologies for my rant at the end of eclipse, and one of our players' (continuous <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> ) rants. At this point we were losing our temper (I know losing my temper over a video game is silly, but, meh...)
-Yes, I know I often switch from my LMG to my pistol with over a quarter of a clip remaining. I've been playing this game for 29.5 months, yet I grew up on the Half-Life 1 SMG clip size <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
-Is it me or do I spend more time looking at the minimap than the actual 1st person view?
-I take back my team_talk rant about 4 minute fades. They happened prior to 3.0 and thus I don't have a problem with it.
-If it seems like I do something totally random, it's becuase our voice communication is done using an external program, and isn't included in the attachments.</span></span>
<a href='http://www.brywright.co.uk/nsforum/index.php?act=Attach&type=post&id=1330' target='_blank'>The 2 demos, courtesy of BryWright.co.uk</a> (9.4Mb)
(Many thanks to Bry of <a href='http://www.brywright.co.uk' target='_blank'>Bry's NS</a> for hosting this file, and the last remaining fun NS community in the UK)
Oh, <b>please</b> look at the demos before you post; I actually find <i>watching</i> competitive demos more fun than <i>playing</i> the average pub game; and they last less than 15mins each.
Comments
I think with this versions its basically, if marines work as a good team they have a 1\2 chance of winning. If aliens work as a good team, rines have 1\4 chance of winning maybe less. It might just be lost too because its so big... i rarely see marines ever win that one.
I think with this versions its basically, if marines work as a good team they have a 1\2 chance of winning. If aliens work as a good team, rines have 1\4 chance of winning maybe less. It might just be lost too because its so big... i rarely see marines ever win that one. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
If all else fails, blame it on the mp_blockscripts.
<insert image of Bob Odenkirk shaking the crime stick>
Sieging has become A LOT harder now. PG's are like a skulks dream now since 2 skulks can just camp it and kill anything besides HA that comes out of it.
<insert image of Bob Odenkirk shaking the crime stick> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
lmao, i love Mr. Show
How about some ice cream!
I think with this versions its basically, if marines work as a good team they have a 1\2 chance of winning. If aliens work as a good team, rines have 1\4 chance of winning maybe less. It might just be lost too because its so big... i rarely see marines ever win that one. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
aero, we might not have had any great fades recently on LM, but I assure you BS is not the issue. Scooter blue is a scary fade and he has been regging LM for ages, when civ used to play pubs he would MASSACAR us with fade on LM, both of them played just fine with mp_blockscripts on. You will see good fades weather or not BS is on, expecially at the clan play level.
Now about the demo's, i personally liked the part when the skulk was eating CC pg, and like you were aiming right at it, but nothing hit it. Just so luvely.
Oh and, when TeamF is in question, theres no reason to feel sorry if you bash em.
-Is it me or do I spend more time looking at the minimap than the actual 1st person view? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, you're not the only one.
But I think it is very important to use minimap in pubs, because if there is some alien bhopping in the base and biting the obs and the noob com doesen't notice it.
But I use this in wars too, maybe a bad habit? :/
I believe we just need time to adapt to this new tactics, we'll see.
I remember reading that all us Westerners grew up on the thinking of the old skool Greek blokes; which is to say we criticize things before we approve of them (I'm guilty of it myself).
Nevertheless, I posted the demos in the hope that I could get support and include some balance fixes in 3.1.
There's a damned good chance that I'll get kicked out of config for posting those demos against the CL's will: so I hope something good comes out against it.
Some things that the replies have bought up:
- Yep, blockscripts was on.
- At the end of the eclipse round, the alien frag scores were 25 / 23 / 3 / 3 / 2/ 0. Guess who the focus fades were. (Prior to 3.0 we could handle decent fades no problem). I'm sorry, but, including the pre-fade time, there were about 8 skulk kills in the whole of the round. Is that right???
- We are an EU clan, not a UK clan (that team consisted of 2 Brits, 2 Belgiums, 1 German and a Finn)
- Yes, we moaned a lot during that game (GG GERMAN!). Their fades (once again, apologies to berating Team Fantasy) were "walker fades", yet even in groups with HMG, we did not have enough time to deal damage before they ran. When the 2nd hive went up and they had 2-hive armour; I don't think they even bothered to use blink.
I've heard a PT (our good buddy Shockwave) say that one cause of imbalance could be res for kill. Anyone agree? (If someone is saving for fade, and gets 4 marine kills (average of 8 res in RFK), then he only has to wait for 17 res to come his way from the RTs...)
I'm still trying to think what has caused alien dominance. I don't play combat, yet I've heard that aliens wins in that mode are very common too- yet for the life of me I don't understand that one!
Over this last week or so, Ive played about 10 gather matches. Now ok their not quite as organised as clan pcws however.
90% of the time (and thats not exagerating) aliens win.
The problem is, unlike before, you can expect all skulks to have full upgrades within about a minute thirty, making them pretty lethal. For example, I see most alien teams going for an MC first strat. Well, no way you can expect to have MT in a tourny mode match by this time, it takes too long to research for one, and it not cost effective. Now silence skulks that have any skill before you get MT are flipping lethal. So say that skulk get 3 or 4 kills early game. Not only has he stopped your team progressing, but hes earnt him self possible up to about 15 res on RFK. Meaning celerity fades at rediculously early times.
Also, flipping **** **** hitboxes, make celerity skulks almost impossible to hit, Id actually be interested to find out if even an aimbot could hit them.
Now, I dont care how pr0 you think you are, but if the skulk who is fading manages to get these few early kills, hes gonna be fade at about 3 minutes or so. At this stage in the game you could count yourself extremly lucky if you had weapons 2. NO way in hell are you gonna kills these fades, unless they **** up badly or you get very lucky. Note: sometimes we only had armour 1 by then!
Also, second hives are going up sooner for the exact same reason.
To give you an example, we played one game that was pretty stacked against us, we played marines first. Well game started, 2 of us died at lazer drilling they rushed base and we lost in about 2 minutes.
They said we could have a replay, well this didnt go much better, we hardly made it out of base getting only I think 3 RTs, and we lost that at about 7 or 8 minutes.
Now as alien, firstly one of our players droppped out at the start so we only had 5 people, and yes you guessed it, we won.
And as soon as the second hive goes up, if they get SC, you have celerity focus fades (which can heal themselves through metabolize) and your pretty screwed. Jps are now out of the question as they are a fades most fun prey, and HA trains are just way to expensive in most cases.
Adapt? run like hell more like...
EDIT: Just thought of some more ****.
Another thing, base rushing as aliens is so god damn effective. Last few matches where I have been fade, I'll let the other fade defend the hiev and growing hive, while Ive been doing hit and run attacks on their base.
Most teams will leave a man in base, however, as celerity or focus fade, the poor guy doesnt have a hope against you, even if he has a hmg. By the time you are early fade, hes not gonna have level 3 weapons (if even level 2) and he alone simply cannot inflict enough damage on to you before you kill him. Now remember also by this stage they probably wont even have pgs, as most commanders will probably rush upgrades to try to combat your fades. If I force them to bacon, even once, this gives my team about 2 minutes of free time to eat RT's and secure hives.
So ie been thinking, maybe the good old pub 2 hive lockdown is the way to go, except, any marine will NEED armour 1, which is an immediate (40 or 45?) res spent. This way they can counter base rushing, which I have found to be SO effective. Its just making it to those 2 hive locations alive. So, possibly, rush armour 1, rush PGs, hope your marines make it to the empty hives alive (this is a big hope) and try to lock down. However the res needed to do this is gonna mean your probably not going to be able to upgrade weapons at all. So your gonna have to upgrade the armoury and go for early HMGs to stand a chance against the fades.
It just seems once they have the second hive growing, and some fades up, your chances of winning are slim.
Good post Sherpa.
edit: just to be clear, the problem was that with the gorges on top of the hive we couldnt actually seige it, we couldnt rush the hive with sgs without getting owned by the focus fades, with the seiges up we tried to get a gler in there and or take down the fades, we hade 1 guy capping rts and 4 at the hive with assorted weapons + welders, the problem was that with 2 fcous fades coming at you in close quarters from different directions while you're trying to build or weld is pretty much impossible, one comes in gets a swipe you go to weld the guy and the other comes in from behind and gets a swipe, another guy runs out of ammo etc etc.
<sherpa> as dema said
<sherpa> send your flash fade to one side of MS exit, make him sit on a wall with cloak, and gg
<sherpa> 2.5 minute fades
<dema> NSkeepitG versus DiE a couple of days ago on ns_metal - i was reswhoring for fade - camping cloaked as skulk outside ms at that first rt location - top of map
<dema> took me four kills, didn't even die once to fade
<dema> how fun is that
I think what it comes down to, is:
<sherpa> no more res for kill
<sherpa> becuase aliens can live on 3 RTs with RFK
<sherpa> which is bollocks, because the marines need like 8 RTs to counter aliens in 3.0
Becuase upgraded skulks do a damned good job of keeping their RTs alive.
So, remove RFK = Aliens have to build another RT to survive. Which means more of the map to cover. Which means more chance of a marine pressure squad taking down an RT.
Just the most blatant mistakes right here :
- Late A1
- No Welders
- Indecisive monkeying around in maint
- Ammoless SG catpack rush
- Idiotic use of JPs
- An endless supply of cumulatively bad ideas on your teams behalf
The only things I saw you guys doing right was a) shooting them and b) recapping nodes. Other than that it was like watching depressed lemmings play NS. Sure the guys you played against were horrible, but you deserved to lose that.
Admittedly I've only watched demo nr1 so far, but I see enough things on that level of idiocy in obs everyday - both demos at once might be an overdose.
The other problem is the impact of species. I think the teams <i>overall</i> are fairly balanced, the problem lies in that 60% of that impact comes from Fades, 20% from Lerks, 10% from Skulks and the rest from Onos/Gorges.
I'd like to see the overall effectiveness of aliens stay the same (Sens needs to come down a little as a 1st hive chamber) but the impact of each species to vary a little.
1. Fade skill curve needs to come down. The difference between a pro Fade & a not-so-good one is too large.
2. You can't balance until all the hitboxes etc work correctly. Otherwise you don't know how much damage something will take when it works properly.
3. Shotguns are still funny on their hitrate, imo, but as far as I know no-one can reliably reproduce it apart from to say "It just does, okay!"
Just my idle thoughts, and remember as a PT those opinions aren't official, they're mine. So don't go saying 'OMG NS TEAM WANTS RFK GONE!' because I don't know if they do, I'd just personally welcome it if they did. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
- Shockwave
Shockwave, I actually thing 3.0 <b>blurs</b> the gap between good and bad players too much.
IMHO, an averaged skilled team can get an alien win over a high-skilled marine team, if they follow the strict pattern of,
- Having 3 RTs (maybe push the boat out and go for 4 on maps like tanith)
- Early chambers
- Make most of the squad defend those RTs, pushing up the map whenever they fend off attacks
- Sending one or 2 skulks to munch out-of-the-way marine RTs.
- Have 1 or 2 flash fades.
I'm not necessarily saying that the teams should have a multitude of viable tactics, but I can't really see how the marines beat the above tactic unless they get lucky (such as sneaking a PG in a hive, and already having 5 marines sitting in base with shotguns)
Shockwave, I actually thing 3.0 <b>blurs</b> the gap between good and bad players too much.
IMHO, an averaged skilled team can get an alien win over a high-skilled marine team, if they follow the strict pattern of,
- Having 3 RTs (maybe push the boat out and go for 4 on maps like tanith)
- Early chambers
- Make most of the squad defend those RTs, pushing up the map whenever they fend off attacks
- Sending one or 2 skulks to munch out-of-the-way marine RTs.
- Have 1 or 2 flash fades.
I'm not necessarily saying that the teams should have a multitude of viable tactics, but I can't really see how the marines beat the above tactic unless they get lucky (such as sneaking a PG in a hive, and already having 5 marines sitting in base with shotguns) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd like to emphasize "eating marine resources".
Please learn to do this?
I was horrified when it was introduced.
Also, I am working on a dmg calculator by seconds (not hits) and I am still not done, so much variables, but armor2 makes you in the end pump out more dmg then weapons1.
It was my opinion not to post these demo's on these forums here cos yeah I already KNOW by far we are NOT the best european clan
<span style='color:gray'><*snip* None of that here.></span>
I rarely comment on peoples' rates, as it goes down to paths:
1. Shows xenophobia, as it tends to be [people from a certain EU country] who abuse it.
or
2. Starts a lame flame war. It's either this topic, or another one, where someone rightly comments "after going 2 years with no complaints; nowadays you can't go 5 minutes without someone saying "fix your rates, haxer" "
So I'll leave that one.
I didn't have a problem with their hitboxes, but as Ots has already said (and I mentioned in my 1st post yellow text), there's a shocking scene where I pump 40 LMG and 10 pistol bullets into a non-moving skulk who succesfully eats the PG. <b>That</b> was very dodgy.
Still, I'm confident that despite what someone in this thread has implied, we played well enough to deserve the win; and out-fragged them on all 4 rounds.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
that's the pg hitbox which covers the skulk.
also I'd like to keep TeamF's rates or whatever out of this "discussion"
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
that's the pg hitbox which covers the skulk. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's almost as if you're defending the action - that the skulk <b>should</b> have lived, since he was covered by the PG.
Not at all. If I can see the skulk, I should be able to shoot him, and the bullets should hit.
I think the problems in NS boil down to 1 simple thing, and that's hitboxes. All the small changes and improvements that the NS team is making - yeah, fine, good job. <b>But when my crosshair is directly on the enemy, I want the bullets to damage him. Please.</b>
edit: just to be clear, the problem was that with the gorges on top of the hive we couldnt actually seige it, we couldnt rush the hive with sgs without getting owned by the focus fades, with the seiges up we tried to get a gler in there and or take down the fades, we hade 1 guy capping rts and 4 at the hive with assorted weapons + welders, the problem was that with 2 fcous fades coming at you in close quarters from different directions while you're trying to build or weld is pretty much impossible, one comes in gets a swipe you go to weld the guy and the other comes in from behind and gets a swipe, another guy runs out of ammo etc etc.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
lol that was a funny game there. I was like ahh crap a GL and I didnt think he would nade those poor gorges down <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
No chance for Marines like that, if they're down to 2 people and no structures.
Imbalance? I'd say.