i noticed a lot in those demos that your ping was really high. your shots were registering so late. i watched that CC skulk pg situation again. most of your shots were registering. you could tell by the green blood on the wall. that skulk was definatly bugged. same thing with that earlier skulk in CC when you were trying to kill him with your shotgun. i saw 3 point blank hits register before it died on that mine. something was seriously messed up with the alien team's hit registration
<!--QuoteBegin-Swiftspear+Apr 17 2005, 09:00 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Swiftspear @ Apr 17 2005, 09:00 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-aeroripper+Apr 16 2005, 11:48 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (aeroripper @ Apr 16 2005, 11:48 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> wow, you rines were kicking but got beat back both times. It was those damn 2 fades... was blockscripts on?
I think with this versions its basically, if marines work as a good team they have a 1\2 chance of winning. If aliens work as a good team, rines have 1\4 chance of winning maybe less. It might just be lost too because its so big... i rarely see marines ever win that one. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> aero, we might not have had any great fades recently on LM, but I assure you BS is not the issue. Scooter blue is a scary fade and he has been regging LM for ages, when civ used to play pubs he would MASSACAR us with fade on LM, both of them played just fine with mp_blockscripts on. You will see good fades weather or not BS is on, expecially at the clan play level. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't think blockscript has any effect on fades skill levels, nobody good uses anything but hud_fastswitch for fadies <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> Maybe the skulk skill levels. but not fades.
<!--QuoteBegin-Drummer+Apr 17 2005, 03:25 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Drummer @ Apr 17 2005, 03:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> i noticed a lot in those demos that your ping was really high. your shots were registering so late. i watched that CC skulk pg situation again. most of your shots were registering. you could tell by the green blood on the wall. that skulk was definatly bugged. same thing with that earlier skulk in CC when you were trying to kill him with your shotgun. i saw 3 point blank hits register before it died on that mine. something was seriously messed up with the alien team's hit registration <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> the pg hitbox is higher than the model
<!--QuoteBegin-Anderval+Apr 17 2005, 07:24 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Anderval @ Apr 17 2005, 07:24 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> i played a scrim against an american mix team the other, day it was ns_eclipse and the aliens took sc first, we played suprisingly well and managed to kill their building second hive. we recapped and moved on to take down the last hive which was maintenance, we got a pg up and a tf, with 4ish seiges, and added an extra obs giving us 3 in total, it then took around 15 minutes to kill the hive, because they had 4 gorges sitting on top of it healing and one very good focus fade and another decent focus fade, there were times i actually thought we would lose the pg, eventually we managed to get a gler alive into maint to kill the gorges after about 4 tries allowing us to actually seige it. at the time it just seemed totally rediculous how hard it was.
edit: just to be clear, the problem was that with the gorges on top of the hive we couldnt actually seige it, we couldnt rush the hive with sgs without getting owned by the focus fades, with the seiges up we tried to get a gler in there and or take down the fades, we hade 1 guy capping rts and 4 at the hive with assorted weapons + welders, the problem was that with 2 fcous fades coming at you in close quarters from different directions while you're trying to build or weld is pretty much impossible, one comes in gets a swipe you go to weld the guy and the other comes in from behind and gets a swipe, another guy runs out of ammo etc etc. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> ahahahahahahah
I was one of the gorges, and HBS and Duo were the fades. Honestly, that was the funniest situation i've ever seen. All I could do was laugh when that grenade launcher killed all 4 gorges with one shot.
TalesinOur own little well of hateJoin Date: 2002-11-08Member: 7710NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators
This topic is running the edge of joining many of its brethren... please focus more on the analysis of the demo, and less on which team is 'dodgy', that XYZ is horribly overpowered, or other aspects from off in right field.
Due to innate regeneration, skulks now take one more lmg bullet to kill. That's a balance destroyer for you right there. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> hardly little known, more like people little realise just how significant that one bullet is to basic vanialla unit balance, probably every round that innate regen saves me at least once where i would've died with no kill or rfk, add the rest of the alien skulk team to that and it gives you earlier fades/ hives/ faster nodes etc etc, PLUS the fact that skulks get more rfk from free upgrades too...this with absoloutly no thought taken on how it would effect an early game which WASNT UNBALANCED. YES marines dominated early game both in terms of kill and map control in b5, but marines had to do this so they were in a decent position midgame, all aliens need to reach their mid game is a hive and a couple of nodes somewhere safeish, marines needed to control the aliens in the map and keep at least 4-5 rts all game something which is so stupidly hard now.
Due to innate regeneration, skulks now take one more lmg bullet to kill. That's a balance destroyer for you right there. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> hardly little known, more like people little realise just how significant that one bullet is to basic vanialla unit balance, probably every round that innate regen saves me at least once where i would've died with no kill or rfk, add the rest of the alien skulk team to that and it gives you earlier fades/ hives/ faster nodes etc etc, PLUS the fact that skulks get more rfk from free upgrades too...this with absoloutly no thought taken on how it would effect an early game which WASNT UNBALANCED. YES marines dominated early game both in terms of kill and map control in b5, but marines had to do this so they were in a decent position midgame, all aliens need to reach their mid game is a hive and a couple of nodes somewhere safeish, marines needed to control the aliens in the map and keep at least 4-5 rts all game something which is so stupidly hard now. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually, the one bullet increase is cool because it just gives weapons 1 a purpose. As in, you kill skulks in one less bullet, and then weapons 2 rolls along, and skulks die in one less bullet, and weapons 3 comes along, and you kill in one less bullet.
10 9 8 7
Pretty cool, eh1?!
The way more unbalancing factor is the free upgrades.
Due to innate regeneration, skulks now take one more lmg bullet to kill. That's a balance destroyer for you right there. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> hardly little known, more like people little realise just how significant that one bullet is to basic vanialla unit balance, probably every round that innate regen saves me at least once where i would've died with no kill or rfk, add the rest of the alien skulk team to that and it gives you earlier fades/ hives/ faster nodes etc etc, PLUS the fact that skulks get more rfk from free upgrades too...this with absoloutly no thought taken on how it would effect an early game which WASNT UNBALANCED. YES marines dominated early game both in terms of kill and map control in b5, but marines had to do this so they were in a decent position midgame, all aliens need to reach their mid game is a hive and a couple of nodes somewhere safeish, marines needed to control the aliens in the map and keep at least 4-5 rts all game something which is so stupidly hard now. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually, the one bullet increase is cool because it just gives weapons 1 a purpose. As in, you kill skulks in one less bullet, and then weapons 2 rolls along, and skulks die in one less bullet, and weapons 3 comes along, and you kill in one less bullet.
10 9 8 7
Pretty cool, eh1?!
The way more unbalancing factor is the free upgrades. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Not cool, now I can't yell at commanders for getting weapons 1 before armor 1, since they technically have a reason to do so. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Oh and yeah, when you look at competitive it tends to hint about the scale of balance.. this demo is just another example.
<!--QuoteBegin-Talesin+Apr 17 2005, 06:49 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Talesin @ Apr 17 2005, 06:49 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> This topic is running the edge of joining many of its brethren... please focus more on the analysis of the demo, and less on which team is 'dodgy', that XYZ is horribly overpowered, or other aspects from off in right field. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ok so in a forum about a game that contains 2 differently structured sides, in a thread named "Competitive Demos Showing Imbalance?" Nobody is allowed to say anything about the imbalances of said game?
Would you please get a grip? Its a forum, where we are talking about a game. Its silly to not let people talk about the game. Maybe instead of locking threads you should allow the dev's to read what the people that play this game the most are saying about something so crucial to game quality. They can't do that if you keep closing threads.
You don't need to be gifted with hindsight to work out basic strategy that is cost-effective. Start with the simple things - like welders and not having your comm ignore you while you're dangerously low on ammo. That alone could probably have let you walk in on maintenance with a hint better group movement.
But once that failed vs 2 Fades and a Lerk, thats a big hint to cut your losses, recover gear if possible and start either sieging or gearing for Proto. In case of a siege you just powerbuild 3-4 sieges, a pack of mines and pray - in the case of a Proto, you can either get HA and go back to sieging, or go with JPs and slowly take out chambers. Against the guys you played either way would have been cake - instead you just kept focusing on that hive. A hive, once live, is logically difficult to take out - it makes more sense to wittle down RTs and chambers first.
You've said so yourself : Upgrades and the popularity of MC/SC now is what makes beta 6/3.0F aliens strong - but MCs and SCs are easy to attack chambers, and nodes aren't that much tougher to kill. With all the res you threw into blind hiverushes sans prototech you could have got MT as well - another essential for wittling down alien chambers and nodes while keeping your own res up.
Really, I see it ALL THE TIME with bad competitive commanders - theres a widespread inability to make a good guesstimate as to risk vs reward, cost in time and appropriate methods. This isn't even hindsight, I usually have to point these things out to our new commander in obs in the field too - currently via text because my mic is broken, oh the fun never ends.
The funniest thing about 1.dem is really, you would have lost that round in B5 too - their skulks were horrible and never achieved much unless they were eating a node, and their Fades didn't really benefit from 3.0F changes. The only thing that would not have happened is for an inexperienced team like you were playing to realize MC/SC was going to whoop ze butt.
<!--QuoteBegin-Router Box+Apr 17 2005, 11:47 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Router Box @ Apr 17 2005, 11:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Would you please get a grip? It's a forum, where we are talking about a game. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The only intelligent post I've read on these forums.
Every situation in the game needs different treatment. There are a ton of situations that crop up in Natural Selection. Break down individual situations and see how you can improve on them. That, and/or scrim a lot - you'll come to find better ways to do things.
Given that NS is a game that relies heavily on the decisions that a player makes (especially the commander), it's important to have the right goals while you're making your decisions.
Big Goals for b6 Marine Commanding Get Armor 1 ASAP, ALWAYS Find their Hive Destroy their res nodes Find out what chambers they have (early) Adjust your strategy to that chamber Use mines Use phase gates (RARELY let one lone guy build an important phase gate; usually at least 2.) Use mines and phase gates
If you can lock down one hive, lock down the other. Don't get hasty and go for the kill on the hive1; take your time to lock down both hive2 locations and secure the win. 3 phase gates (base, hive2, otherhive2), 3 observatories, and a ton of mines will do the job. Add turret factory for better results.
Other Goals Minimize medpack/ammo waste Don't hesitate to medpack. Use armories to resupply large groups (3-5) of marines in an easily defensible area Electrify Mines Mines Mines and Mines Well placed mines can turn a battle, easily. A well placed bile-bomb can make your commander cry.
<!--QuoteBegin-Router Box+Apr 18 2005, 05:47 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Router Box @ Apr 18 2005, 05:47 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Talesin+Apr 17 2005, 06:49 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Talesin @ Apr 17 2005, 06:49 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> This topic is running the edge of joining many of its brethren... please focus more on the analysis of the demo, and less on which team is 'dodgy', that XYZ is horribly overpowered, or other aspects from off in right field. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ok so in a forum about a game that contains 2 differently structured sides, in a thread named "Competitive Demos Showing Imbalance?" Nobody is allowed to say anything about the imbalances of said game?
Would you please get a grip? Its a forum, where we are talking about a game. Its silly to not let people talk about the game. Maybe instead of locking threads you should allow the dev's to read what the people that play this game the most are saying about something so crucial to game quality. They can't do that if you keep closing threads. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Better its posted here, than on another forum, or even a review that potential investors may read. What I mean is, they read the thread here, notice it's been locked, and wonder why, then notice the same thread on an NS community forum somewhere, where there is complete, intelegent, analysis on the game. Impresions are everything.
ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
<!--QuoteBegin-hawthorne+Apr 18 2005, 03:47 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (hawthorne @ Apr 18 2005, 03:47 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Every situation in the game needs different treatment. There are a ton of situations that crop up in Natural Selection. Break down individual situations and see how you can improve on them. That, and/or scrim a lot - you'll come to find better ways to do things.
Given that NS is a game that relies heavily on the decisions that a player makes (especially the commander), it's important to have the right goals while you're making your decisions.
Big Goals for b6 Marine Commanding Get Armor 1 ASAP, ALWAYS Find their Hive Destroy their res nodes Find out what chambers they have (early) Adjust your strategy to that chamber Use mines Use phase gates (RARELY let one lone guy build an important phase gate; usually at least 2.) Use mines and phase gates
If you can lock down one hive, lock down the other. Don't get hasty and go for the kill on the hive1; take your time to lock down both hive2 locations and secure the win. 3 phase gates (base, hive2, otherhive2), 3 observatories, and a ton of mines will do the job. Add turret factory for better results.
Other Goals Minimize medpack/ammo waste Don't hesitate to medpack. Use armories to resupply large groups (3-5) of marines in an easily defensible area Electrify Mines Mines Mines and Mines Well placed mines can turn a battle, easily. A well placed bile-bomb can make your commander cry.
Hope this helps! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Never thought I'd see a competitive player advocate for twi-hive lockdowns...but you know what? It's sad, but it just might be right this version <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
In almost EVERY pub game I've played lately, if the teams aren't stacked, then the ONLY times marines have won is when the marines successfully lock down 2 hives.
Now obvious competitive games are different than pub games (I think in that marines have a HARDER time in compettive games since aliens are usually skilled enough to exploit every advantage given to them in 3.0final. I use the term "exploit" not in a negative tone here of course) but the fact that nothing else the commanders are trying out there...and you can't tell me all of them are un-innovative (remember, only clanners are rigid, right, Talesin? /end sarcasm)...might say something about the un-viability of most marine strats outside of two-hive lockdown. I think that's really sad <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> It turns NS boring.
Lockdowns are a viable option if you hold the cards, but you might as well pour that res into tech. Its up to you really - a building second hive vs a team weakened to the point where you control 2/3rds of the map easily isn't too tough to take out.
ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
If only I can figure out a way to dominate 2/3 of the map for the first 5 minutes of the game <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> None of the marine teams I've played on lately have been able to do that, unless the teams were stacked. I just really wish marines started with more res or something.
<!--QuoteBegin-Church+Apr 18 2005, 11:42 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Church @ Apr 18 2005, 11:42 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If only I can figure out a way to dominate 2/3 of the map for the first 5 minutes of the game <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> None of the marine teams I've played on lately have been able to do that, unless the teams were stacked. I just really wish marines started with more res or something. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Perhaps change nothing except add one more upgrade to the arms lab, one which improves the damage absorbtion by 10 - 20% on each level of armour, perhaps when researched lvl 1 gains 10% lvl 2 gains 15% and lvl 3 gains 20%, don't know if those values make a difference, and I am not going to put this in I&S.
Minstrel_KnightThe truth and nothing but the truth...Join Date: 2002-11-21Member: 9562Banned
Often enough you can have five res nodes for most of the game as marines and if the second hive goes up you will still lose. Pretty much you have to kill the fades/second hive before it goes up or put them to 1 rt early game to win as marines.
ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
Well it's all backk to the fact that NS is *all* about the second hive. It's almost to the point that nothing else matters. In almost every game I play, if the second hive goes up, the aliens win. Because that's all aliens have to do to win, it forces marines strategies all to revolve around killing that one objective, limiting the available strategies.
<!--QuoteBegin-DarkFrost+Apr 18 2005, 09:02 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkFrost @ Apr 18 2005, 09:02 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Perhaps change nothing except add one more upgrade to the arms lab, one which improves the damage absorbtion by 10 - 20% on each level of armour, perhaps when researched lvl 1 gains 10% lvl 2 gains 15% and lvl 3 gains 20%, don't know if those values make a difference, and I am not going to put this in I&S. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Do you mean the way extra hives makes alien armor absorb 2.5 or 3 damage per point instead of just 2? Or the way that old armor upgrades made more damage go to armor instead of hp?
Because the second one would be useless...the deflection rate is already so high that marines always run out of armor well before they actually die. The first would work, but it would be the equivalent of adding an "armor4" upgrade...which doesn't do anything to address the early to midgame balance being discussed in the rest of the thread.
I personally still prefer the 2.x marine armor model...
ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
Agreed. More damage absorbsion is crap. I'd go for more armor points, less armor absorbsion, going back to 1.04 style. Look at my sig <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Church+Apr 19 2005, 01:36 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Church @ Apr 19 2005, 01:36 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Agreed. More damage absorbsion is crap. I'd go for more armor points, less armor absorbsion, going back to 1.04 style. Look at my sig <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> o.O 1.0s armour was insane absorbtion lvl 3 was 90% :o
<!--QuoteBegin-Church+Apr 18 2005, 05:19 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Church @ Apr 18 2005, 05:19 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Never thought I'd see a competitive player advocate for twi-hive lockdowns...but you know what? It's sad, but it just might be right this version <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
In almost EVERY pub game I've played lately, if the teams aren't stacked, then the ONLY times marines have won is when the marines successfully lock down 2 hives.
Now obvious competitive games are different than pub games (I think in that marines have a HARDER time in compettive games since aliens are usually skilled enough to exploit every advantage given to them in 3.0final. I use the term "exploit" not in a negative tone here of course) but the fact that nothing else the commanders are trying out there...and you can't tell me all of them are un-innovative (remember, only clanners are rigid, right, Talesin? /end sarcasm)...might say something about the un-viability of most marine strats outside of two-hive lockdown. I think that's really sad <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> It turns NS boring.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> locking down two hives isn't any easy chore. it's only slightly less difficult than maintaining 2/3 map control.
additionally, if you avoid being offensive on res nodes while you're locking down two hives, one of those hives are going to be lost to onos.
<!--QuoteBegin-Church+Apr 18 2005, 07:14 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Church @ Apr 18 2005, 07:14 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Well it's all backk to the fact that NS is *all* about the second hive. It's almost to the point that nothing else matters. In almost every game I play, if the second hive goes up, the aliens win. Because that's all aliens have to do to win, it forces marines strategies all to revolve around killing that one objective, limiting the available strategies. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> true the second hive is a major objective but its not a guaranteed win. with good res control (both defensively and offensively), protolabbed marines can do a lot against hive2 aliens.
Comments
-Disabling RFK
-Removing cone of spread on ranged weapons, by about 90%?
I think with this versions its basically, if marines work as a good team they have a 1\2 chance of winning. If aliens work as a good team, rines have 1\4 chance of winning maybe less. It might just be lost too because its so big... i rarely see marines ever win that one. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
aero, we might not have had any great fades recently on LM, but I assure you BS is not the issue. Scooter blue is a scary fade and he has been regging LM for ages, when civ used to play pubs he would MASSACAR us with fade on LM, both of them played just fine with mp_blockscripts on. You will see good fades weather or not BS is on, expecially at the clan play level. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think blockscript has any effect on fades skill levels, nobody good uses anything but hud_fastswitch for fadies <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Maybe the skulk skill levels. but not fades.
the pg hitbox is higher than the model
edit: just to be clear, the problem was that with the gorges on top of the hive we couldnt actually seige it, we couldnt rush the hive with sgs without getting owned by the focus fades, with the seiges up we tried to get a gler in there and or take down the fades, we hade 1 guy capping rts and 4 at the hive with assorted weapons + welders, the problem was that with 2 fcous fades coming at you in close quarters from different directions while you're trying to build or weld is pretty much impossible, one comes in gets a swipe you go to weld the guy and the other comes in from behind and gets a swipe, another guy runs out of ammo etc etc. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ahahahahahahah
I was one of the gorges, and HBS and Duo were the fades. Honestly, that was the funniest situation i've ever seen. All I could do was laugh when that grenade launcher killed all 4 gorges with one shot.
<img src='http://jick.org/images/gorgy.GIF' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
But thats their mad arse tactics.
I don't think the issue is rfk though, as was said I think is boils down to hitboxes.
Due to innate regeneration, skulks now take one more lmg bullet to kill. That's a balance destroyer for you right there.
Due to innate regeneration, skulks now take one more lmg bullet to kill. That's a balance destroyer for you right there. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
hardly little known, more like people little realise just how significant that one bullet is to basic vanialla unit balance, probably every round that innate regen saves me at least once where i would've died with no kill or rfk, add the rest of the alien skulk team to that and it gives you earlier fades/ hives/ faster nodes etc etc, PLUS the fact that skulks get more rfk from free upgrades too...this with absoloutly no thought taken on how it would effect an early game which WASNT UNBALANCED. YES marines dominated early game both in terms of kill and map control in b5, but marines had to do this so they were in a decent position midgame, all aliens need to reach their mid game is a hive and a couple of nodes somewhere safeish, marines needed to control the aliens in the map and keep at least 4-5 rts all game something which is so stupidly hard now.
Due to innate regeneration, skulks now take one more lmg bullet to kill. That's a balance destroyer for you right there. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
hardly little known, more like people little realise just how significant that one bullet is to basic vanialla unit balance, probably every round that innate regen saves me at least once where i would've died with no kill or rfk, add the rest of the alien skulk team to that and it gives you earlier fades/ hives/ faster nodes etc etc, PLUS the fact that skulks get more rfk from free upgrades too...this with absoloutly no thought taken on how it would effect an early game which WASNT UNBALANCED. YES marines dominated early game both in terms of kill and map control in b5, but marines had to do this so they were in a decent position midgame, all aliens need to reach their mid game is a hive and a couple of nodes somewhere safeish, marines needed to control the aliens in the map and keep at least 4-5 rts all game something which is so stupidly hard now. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, the one bullet increase is cool because it just gives weapons 1 a purpose. As in, you kill skulks in one less bullet, and then weapons 2 rolls along, and skulks die in one less bullet, and weapons 3 comes along, and you kill in one less bullet.
10
9
8
7
Pretty cool, eh1?!
The way more unbalancing factor is the free upgrades.
Due to innate regeneration, skulks now take one more lmg bullet to kill. That's a balance destroyer for you right there. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
hardly little known, more like people little realise just how significant that one bullet is to basic vanialla unit balance, probably every round that innate regen saves me at least once where i would've died with no kill or rfk, add the rest of the alien skulk team to that and it gives you earlier fades/ hives/ faster nodes etc etc, PLUS the fact that skulks get more rfk from free upgrades too...this with absoloutly no thought taken on how it would effect an early game which WASNT UNBALANCED. YES marines dominated early game both in terms of kill and map control in b5, but marines had to do this so they were in a decent position midgame, all aliens need to reach their mid game is a hive and a couple of nodes somewhere safeish, marines needed to control the aliens in the map and keep at least 4-5 rts all game something which is so stupidly hard now. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, the one bullet increase is cool because it just gives weapons 1 a purpose. As in, you kill skulks in one less bullet, and then weapons 2 rolls along, and skulks die in one less bullet, and weapons 3 comes along, and you kill in one less bullet.
10
9
8
7
Pretty cool, eh1?!
The way more unbalancing factor is the free upgrades. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not cool, now I can't yell at commanders for getting weapons 1 before armor 1, since they technically have a reason to do so. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Oh and yeah, when you look at competitive it tends to hint about the scale of balance.. this demo is just another example.
I don't think blockscript has any effect on fades skill levels, nobody good uses anything but hud_fastswitch for fadies <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Maybe the skulk skill levels. but not fades. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wrong.
Ok so in a forum about a game that contains 2 differently structured sides, in a thread named "Competitive Demos Showing Imbalance?" Nobody is allowed to say anything about the imbalances of said game?
Would you please get a grip? Its a forum, where we are talking about a game. Its silly to not let people talk about the game. Maybe instead of locking threads you should allow the dev's to read what the people that play this game the most are saying about something so crucial to game quality. They can't do that if you keep closing threads.
But once that failed vs 2 Fades and a Lerk, thats a big hint to cut your losses, recover gear if possible and start either sieging or gearing for Proto. In case of a siege you just powerbuild 3-4 sieges, a pack of mines and pray - in the case of a Proto, you can either get HA and go back to sieging, or go with JPs and slowly take out chambers. Against the guys you played either way would have been cake - instead you just kept focusing on that hive. A hive, once live, is logically difficult to take out - it makes more sense to wittle down RTs and chambers first.
You've said so yourself : Upgrades and the popularity of MC/SC now is what makes beta 6/3.0F aliens strong - but MCs and SCs are easy to attack chambers, and nodes aren't that much tougher to kill. With all the res you threw into blind hiverushes sans prototech you could have got MT as well - another essential for wittling down alien chambers and nodes while keeping your own res up.
Really, I see it ALL THE TIME with bad competitive commanders - theres a widespread inability to make a good guesstimate as to risk vs reward, cost in time and appropriate methods. This isn't even hindsight, I usually have to point these things out to our new commander in obs in the field too - currently via text because my mic is broken, oh the fun never ends.
The funniest thing about 1.dem is really, you would have lost that round in B5 too - their skulks were horrible and never achieved much unless they were eating a node, and their Fades didn't really benefit from 3.0F changes. The only thing that would not have happened is for an inexperienced team like you were playing to realize MC/SC was going to whoop ze butt.
The only intelligent post I've read on these forums.
Given that NS is a game that relies heavily on the decisions that a player makes (especially the commander), it's important to have the right goals while you're making your decisions.
Big Goals for b6 Marine Commanding
Get Armor 1 ASAP, ALWAYS
Find their Hive
Destroy their res nodes
Find out what chambers they have (early)
Adjust your strategy to that chamber
Use mines
Use phase gates (RARELY let one lone guy build an important phase gate; usually at least 2.)
Use mines and phase gates
If you can lock down one hive, lock down the other. Don't get hasty and go for the kill on the hive1; take your time to lock down both hive2 locations and secure the win. 3 phase gates (base, hive2, otherhive2), 3 observatories, and a ton of mines will do the job. Add turret factory for better results.
Other Goals
Minimize medpack/ammo waste
Don't hesitate to medpack.
Use armories to resupply large groups (3-5) of marines in an easily defensible area
Electrify
Mines
Mines
Mines
and Mines
Well placed mines can turn a battle, easily. A well placed bile-bomb can make your commander cry.
Hope this helps!
Ok so in a forum about a game that contains 2 differently structured sides, in a thread named "Competitive Demos Showing Imbalance?" Nobody is allowed to say anything about the imbalances of said game?
Would you please get a grip? Its a forum, where we are talking about a game. Its silly to not let people talk about the game. Maybe instead of locking threads you should allow the dev's to read what the people that play this game the most are saying about something so crucial to game quality. They can't do that if you keep closing threads. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Better its posted here, than on another forum, or even a review that potential investors may read. What I mean is, they read the thread here, notice it's been locked, and wonder why, then notice the same thread on an NS community forum somewhere, where there is complete, intelegent, analysis on the game. Impresions are everything.
Given that NS is a game that relies heavily on the decisions that a player makes (especially the commander), it's important to have the right goals while you're making your decisions.
Big Goals for b6 Marine Commanding
Get Armor 1 ASAP, ALWAYS
Find their Hive
Destroy their res nodes
Find out what chambers they have (early)
Adjust your strategy to that chamber
Use mines
Use phase gates (RARELY let one lone guy build an important phase gate; usually at least 2.)
Use mines and phase gates
If you can lock down one hive, lock down the other. Don't get hasty and go for the kill on the hive1; take your time to lock down both hive2 locations and secure the win. 3 phase gates (base, hive2, otherhive2), 3 observatories, and a ton of mines will do the job. Add turret factory for better results.
Other Goals
Minimize medpack/ammo waste
Don't hesitate to medpack.
Use armories to resupply large groups (3-5) of marines in an easily defensible area
Electrify
Mines
Mines
Mines
and Mines
Well placed mines can turn a battle, easily. A well placed bile-bomb can make your commander cry.
Hope this helps! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Never thought I'd see a competitive player advocate for twi-hive lockdowns...but you know what? It's sad, but it just might be right this version <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
In almost EVERY pub game I've played lately, if the teams aren't stacked, then the ONLY times marines have won is when the marines successfully lock down 2 hives.
Now obvious competitive games are different than pub games (I think in that marines have a HARDER time in compettive games since aliens are usually skilled enough to exploit every advantage given to them in 3.0final. I use the term "exploit" not in a negative tone here of course) but the fact that nothing else the commanders are trying out there...and you can't tell me all of them are un-innovative (remember, only clanners are rigid, right, Talesin? /end sarcasm)...might say something about the un-viability of most marine strats outside of two-hive lockdown. I think that's really sad <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> It turns NS boring.
Perhaps change nothing except add one more upgrade to the arms lab, one which improves the damage absorbtion by 10 - 20% on each level of armour, perhaps when researched lvl 1 gains 10% lvl 2 gains 15% and lvl 3 gains 20%, don't know if those values make a difference, and I am not going to put this in I&S.
Do you mean the way extra hives makes alien armor absorb 2.5 or 3 damage per point instead of just 2? Or the way that old armor upgrades made more damage go to armor instead of hp?
Because the second one would be useless...the deflection rate is already so high that marines always run out of armor well before they actually die. The first would work, but it would be the equivalent of adding an "armor4" upgrade...which doesn't do anything to address the early to midgame balance being discussed in the rest of the thread.
I personally still prefer the 2.x marine armor model...
o.O 1.0s armour was insane absorbtion lvl 3 was 90% :o
In almost EVERY pub game I've played lately, if the teams aren't stacked, then the ONLY times marines have won is when the marines successfully lock down 2 hives.
Now obvious competitive games are different than pub games (I think in that marines have a HARDER time in compettive games since aliens are usually skilled enough to exploit every advantage given to them in 3.0final. I use the term "exploit" not in a negative tone here of course) but the fact that nothing else the commanders are trying out there...and you can't tell me all of them are un-innovative (remember, only clanners are rigid, right, Talesin? /end sarcasm)...might say something about the un-viability of most marine strats outside of two-hive lockdown. I think that's really sad <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> It turns NS boring.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
locking down two hives isn't any easy chore. it's only slightly less difficult than maintaining 2/3 map control.
additionally, if you avoid being offensive on res nodes while you're locking down two hives, one of those hives are going to be lost to onos.
in short, b6 is the shizzle
true the second hive is a major objective but its not a guaranteed win. with good res control (both defensively and offensively), protolabbed marines can do a lot against hive2 aliens.