I purely sucked at NS until Combat made it's debut. Since then I have honed my skills and can even be (somewhat) competitive now. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-evidence+Apr 21 2005, 10:39 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (evidence @ Apr 21 2005, 10:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I dont like how lame it is when someone onos in 2 vs 2 or 3 vs 3 <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> That's why servers have admin_kick my friend.
<!--QuoteBegin-omlette+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (omlette)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->They attract an undesirable player-base, weakening the community as a whole.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Perhaps. But also consider this from the point of view of the game developers; Flayra needs a successful game as proof that he has a good concept and can implement it well if he wants to get funding for UWE for the next game (ie NS2). A mod with 600 players may be enough. A mod with 10,000 players is far more likely to be convincing don't you agree?
<!--QuoteBegin-omlette+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (omlette)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Players seem to be more self-centered and score oriented, rather than focusing on working as a team and using tactics.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
However you cannot say that this wasn't also the case back in the day before combat? I for one got tired of being rambo'd by JP/HMG rushes... (note I said rambo'd, not killed at the hive and then end-game ... they just fly around the map and sit around outside the hive. *g*)
---
another thing every one seems to have forgotten is that about 95% of the competetive scene around the world revolves around classic. There are very few combat scrims/leauges/ladders ... While the competetive scene might not be the most active, it is certainly heading in the right direction
ZavaroTucson, ArizonaJoin Date: 2005-02-14Member: 41174Members, Super Administrators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver, Subnautica Playtester, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
Classic came first, and is in first when it comes to fun. Combat is like a Team Deathmatch game, and reminds me more of C&C Renegade than true NS. I still think Combat should be left in the mod, just add more NS maps. Like look at great maps like Agora, Mineshaft (ok.. so its unbalanced? So what?), Atomic Mass (yes, am I the only human alive who still plays this...?) looks nice, Enclaedus (uh.. spelling?) is fun, Rust is great, Orbital is balanced, Source is good, Thorstation, Oasis, and Shiva are all great maps. Not to mention the new Fenris is looking good.
Yes I like the combat as a no-brainer just like american-movie <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Sure i skip to co_ when my team on ns_ cant build the base and drop mines they just go killzor!(which is mostly due co_ <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> )
ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
<!--QuoteBegin-DuoGodOfDeath+Apr 21 2005, 08:42 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DuoGodOfDeath @ Apr 21 2005, 08:42 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Havent played CO in about a month. Got tired of being Xeno'ed + Focus bite for 10 minutes like one guy said. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah, I'm the guy that said it. Said it somewhere in the competitive forum I think.
To me, combat is only remotely fun as Aliens because you don't feel like you accomplish anything as marines, so I'll be staying away from combat (will go to practice devour and Fading only) for the most part.
Oh that, and aliens will win the vast majority of the time without team-stacking.
And for Gods sakes, are there any "virgin" Combat servers? I haven't found one...ever.
<!--QuoteBegin-Zavaro+Apr 22 2005, 01:45 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zavaro @ Apr 22 2005, 01:45 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Classic came first, and is in first when it comes to fun. Combat is like a Team Deathmatch game, and reminds me more of C&C Renegade than true NS. I still think Combat should be left in the mod, just add more NS maps. Like look at great maps like Agora, Mineshaft (ok.. so its unbalanced? So what?), Atomic Mass (yes, am I the only human alive who still plays this...?) looks nice, Enclaedus (uh.. spelling?) is fun, Rust is great, Orbital is balanced, Source is good, Thorstation, Oasis, and Shiva are all great maps. Not to mention the new Fenris is looking good. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> When I made my whole hoopla about the offical comunity map pack I found out that the VAST majority of those maps were not officially included simply because they were too glitchy and unbalanced to make the final cut. There are definatley problems with the custom mapping scene in NS, compared to other mods it is impossible to get your map signifigantly tested which is quite frustrating.
I'm still willing to look at putting together an offical mapping forum comunity map pack, but I need to get a forum up (meaning I need a better IS provider then I have now, which I have no money to purse) and a team of people willing to slug through map tests, hopefully one of them having an available dedicated server...
The NS team has to facilitate the NS compeditive scene, who has already been more then accomidating towards custom maps, as well. Which means it would be neglegent of them to include tonnes and tonnes of VERY poorly balanced NS maps into the offical roster. If you've acctually played a few games on the current builds of those custom maps you would know that they really aren't all that spiffy in terms of gameplay.
ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
Back in my day when I started, we didn't have any fancy schmancy combat to ease us it. I arrived as an NSPlayer, press off the IP, and followed 2 marines to horseshoe and was ambushed by 2 skulks. I surrvied that encounter, but didn't get any kills. Then, I was chomped in the next encounter. It was thrilling. It was fun. I worked harder, asked questions, to not die as easily next time. Everyone else did the same.
<!--QuoteBegin-Swiftspear+Apr 21 2005, 11:38 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Swiftspear @ Apr 21 2005, 11:38 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-evidence+Apr 21 2005, 10:39 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (evidence @ Apr 21 2005, 10:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I dont like how lame it is when someone onos in 2 vs 2 or 3 vs 3 <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's why servers have admin_kick my friend. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> kick the alien player because the marines sucked so hard they were unable to kill a skulk.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Back in my day when I started, we didn't have any fancy schmancy combat to ease us it. I arrived as an NSPlayer, press off the IP, and followed 2 marines to horseshoe and was ambushed by 2 skulks. I surrvied that encounter, but didn't get any kills. Then, I was chomped in the next encounter. It was thrilling. It was fun. I worked harder, asked questions, to not die as easily next time. Everyone else did the same.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
DING DING nostalgy meter just flew off the chart. :D
Another one of these threads <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Basically personally i only like 2 co maps and thats it co_blackmesa and co_reactor but every other co map i hate.
But as a server op i have to allow co maps because i found that they draw alot of new players in.
I find alot of co maps boring <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
But those 2 i find fun!
But like i said as a server op i have to play maps that draw players in and thats co maps atm!
<!--QuoteBegin-TOmekki+Apr 22 2005, 03:46 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TOmekki @ Apr 22 2005, 03:46 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Swiftspear+Apr 21 2005, 11:38 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Swiftspear @ Apr 21 2005, 11:38 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-evidence+Apr 21 2005, 10:39 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (evidence @ Apr 21 2005, 10:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I dont like how lame it is when someone onos in 2 vs 2 or 3 vs 3 <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's why servers have admin_kick my friend. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> kick the alien player because the marines sucked so hard they were unable to kill a skulk. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> a celer onos is tougher stuff then anything besides a JP/HMG in combat. celer onos costs: 5 points, JP?HMG costs a minimum of: 7 points. Add on resupply and you get an extra point, but to be fair most onos won't be caught dead without regen anyways.
If someone is going to be lame and onos in a 3v3 (at least unless the other team asks for the aliens to end it already) then they can suck it up and deal with a kick, because that is just lame. It isn't like they are getting banned or something, they just get to lose all thier experiance and start over for thier lameness.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Back in my day when I started, we didn't have any fancy schmancy combat to ease us it. I arrived as an NSPlayer, press off the IP, and followed 2 marines to horseshoe and was ambushed by 2 skulks. I surrvied that encounter, but didn't get any kills. Then, I was chomped in the next encounter. It was thrilling. It was fun. I worked harder, asked questions, to not die as easily next time. Everyone else did the same.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
DING DING nostalgy meter just flew off the chart. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I came in back in those days too. I hated it, never got to com (until I fudged through a few rounds with bots on both teams) never played as fade or ono (couldn't affort to waste team res), pretty much the only thing I got good at was HMGing the crap out of those wimpy onos with thier really small hitboxes and premagorging like no tommorrow.
Combat is fun untill you have an entire alien team with:
Focus Xeno Mass Onos
Or a marine team spamming gls
Combat is fun, but it needs to be balanced, oh dont forget webs, if you have them there is no way for marines to win without spamming gl.
Combat past 3-5 minutes = spam fest
WHY IN GODS NAME DO SERVER ADMINS SET THE TIME LIMIT ANYWHERE BEYOND 20 MINUTES MAKES ME CRY. Most CO servers have 20+ minute timers and a crap load of dumb plugins.
I fidn the 20min just about right. You can ahve with good teams those jps around 12min so the 15min would be little bit too short but with that 5 extra minutes you are gonna have fun with skeet-biting via lerk
i also hate co... ive only voted for it the first 2 weeks when i didnt know the game but now i never vote for it... not even in a 1v1 match... but i dont want them to take it out... if they were to take out co then it we will lose a whole knew concept that so many like... i will play it but i will **** "aww i hate co this sucks" but its ok after the time passes... 1 round of co and normaly i will ask an admin to change it... i cant stand no more that 1 round...
<!--QuoteBegin-Amplifier+Apr 22 2005, 10:30 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Amplifier @ Apr 22 2005, 10:30 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Combat is fun untill you have an entire alien team with:
Focus Xeno Mass Onos
Or a marine team spamming gls
Combat is fun, but it needs to be balanced, oh dont forget webs, if you have them there is no way for marines to win without spamming gl.
Combat past 3-5 minutes = spam fest
WHY IN GODS NAME DO SERVER ADMINS SET THE TIME LIMIT ANYWHERE BEYOND 20 MINUTES MAKES ME CRY. Most CO servers have 20+ minute timers and a crap load of dumb plugins. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> On my server by mass reequest the combat timer is unlimited.
Our co maps last upto between 30min and 1hr 10min (depending on the map) e.g. co_blackmesa on average on my server lasts 55 min and thats 55 min of fun <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
It really depends on the server you go on and the server size.....
<!--QuoteBegin-TheJim+Apr 22 2005, 05:02 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TheJim @ Apr 22 2005, 05:02 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Another one of these threads <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Basically personally i only like 2 co maps and thats it co_blackmesa and co_reactor but every other co map i hate.
But as a server op i have to allow co maps because i found that they draw alot of new players in.
I find alot of co maps boring <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
But those 2 i find fun!
But like i said as a server op i have to play maps that draw players in and thats co maps atm! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Stop by The Nutz if you're bored with Combat maps. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
ZunniThe best thing to happen to I&S in a long whileJoin Date: 2002-11-26Member: 10016Members
edited April 2005
My 2 cents not as a dev, but rather as a player of NS games.
To answer the original question, I think some of them are interesting and can be innovative, co_daimos with preplaced pg's, and I certainly feel co_sava as a map is atmospheric.
As for gameplay, I love Combat period, as a play type when I only have 5-10 minutes it's outstanding... For times when I need to practice specific skills (fading, lerking etc) at a low cost to my team (I can try things, die and re-evolve) there is no parallel.
In terms of the CO playerbase, I have seen many people move from CO to NS.. And for those who enjoy combat, there is no harm/foul to simply continue playing CO as long as they want.. I think the people who complain about the people who move (and aren't familiar with the game) are the same people who complainned about those who used to come straight into NS:Classic and didn't have any clue what was going on, except these people (combat conversions) have had some experience, know the alien classes/weapons and have an simpler (imo) time of switching since they just need to learn the res structure and building, and specific strategies (instead of having to learn the entire game). All combat did was open a bridge to other gaming communities and we have expanded because of it. The people who belittle and insult those who don't know classic haven't gone away, they have just found something new to blame people's ignorance of Classic on.
first time when i moved onto steam and got ns 3 beta 3 i was playing those most of the time, but now theyre flipping idiot coz lots of fixes and those maps are stupid except faceoff. i hawe a stupid thing when i f4 and back before death or accidentaly after, then i hawe to earn my stats again. its kinda stupid to hawe 1-24 stats coz of cloaking focus fade or onos and hawe to be rine with flipping lmg coz latejoin
In my opinion combat needs to get a better ettiquette system in place, coming from a team fortress background one thing that really riles me is when I get backtracked, I don't see the problem of there being an offence and defence, there is even the pregame pings to let people state what role they will take.
As for combat being for learning, thats laughable, all combat does is teach you how to play combat, multiple upgrades from each chamber.. pfft.
I think the main people who have problems with combat, is the ones who played since the start, and learned how to play the games roles at a cost to the team, I still stand by the idea of having 2 seperate installers for both client and server.
<!--QuoteBegin-Church+Apr 22 2005, 03:42 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Church @ Apr 22 2005, 03:42 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Back in my day when I started, we didn't have any fancy schmancy combat to ease us it. I arrived as an NSPlayer, press off the IP, and followed 2 marines to horseshoe and was ambushed by 2 skulks. I surrvied that encounter, but didn't get any kills. Then, I was chomped in the next encounter. It was thrilling. It was fun. I worked harder, asked questions, to not die as easily next time. Everyone else did the same. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Horseshoe? Where's that? <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Zunni+Apr 22 2005, 07:44 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zunni @ Apr 22 2005, 07:44 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I think the people who complain about the people who move (and aren't familiar with the game) are the same people who complainned about those who used to come straight into NS:Classic and didn't have any clue what was going on, except these people (combat conversions) have had some experience, know the alien classes/weapons and have an simpler (imo) time of switching since they just need to learn the res structure and building, and specific strategies (instead of having to learn the entire game). All combat did was open a bridge to other gaming communities and we have expanded because of it. The people who belittle and insult those who don't know classic haven't gone away, they have just found something new to blame people's ignorance of Classic on.
Again, my 2 cents as a player.. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I disagree. I know personally I always extended friendship and helped to take newbies under my wing. Once I remember me and another old pro once had a team of almost entirely newbies. I offered to help them learn, they accepted and followed me arround the whole game. Despite the aliens team being almost entirely or completely experienced players having my newbie minions follow me everywhere made for some devastating teamwork which of course led to us winning and many thank yous towards me. I frequently encourge others to welcome and offer to help new players to learn, everyone was a newbie once so make the experince fun so they can't wait to come back to play. It's kind of part of a community purpose we should all share.
Yes combat can be fun and silly but for me the flavor of NS is a serious, hardcore FPS/RTS. I enjoy a NS game against nearly impossible odd and only me few friends who will teamwork well with each other to pull it off. It makes such an imapct that I actually remember most of the names and personal characters of the people who played with me.
It's untrue that the people who dislike Combat are just blaming ignorance on it from the n00b thing that has always existed. What a terribly prejudiced assumption, not what I think they are saying and I agree with is that Combat, beacuse it is a "bridge" it attacting more CS and TFC players who just want to goof around and cut up which sometimes is fun but with that group comes more cheaters, ragers, your myg0t people, and generally a group who is very selfish and unkind to others.
I also dislike how we felt the need to conform to the "typical DM FPS game" inorder to pecome more popular. If NS was a product you sold then yes by all means, more popular means more buyers, means more sales, means more income for hardworking developers. HOWEVER, NS is a free mod which is good buy shoudl also no need that objective. It's better to have a more refined community and being different fromt he crowd. I frequently say that we have a lack of pride in our uniqueness, especially among development.
<i>I don't think we should remove Combat now as now we have people who love only Combat and that wouldn't be fair to ruin their fun.</i> We have to be considerate of CO players as they are a members of the NS community where you like it or not, even if you have only met ones who were jerks to you, and <b><i>deserve your respect</i></b>. What I do think is fair is that we continue the seperation of NS and CO varibles so we can balance them independantly. I've said that months and months ago, and it's still true now. As well as my offer on the table.
That and I worry. I hope NS isn't becomming extinct to CO, that would be a black day in gamming history indeed. I love NS too much. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
imho combat is definitely a nice addition to ns. it allows me to take a break away from the usual ns maps from time to time when i get tired of them. that way when i get back to playing ns maps i begin to enjoy myself all over again <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> . but playing too much combat maps really kills the point of ns. i always took combat as merely a short break from ns, but it nowadays its seems to be appealing to so much of the player base as compared to classic. i feel this really shouldn't be the case. i always felt that ns was meant to revolve around strategy, that is precisely what i love so much about it. but over time combat maps attract the wrong player base, focusing on pure action rather than strategy. well, in the end i would say combat maps have brought both good and bad to ns. good points would be the expanding player base and that is helps to keep people hooked onto ns by breaking the monotony. bad points is that it seems to be causing ns to stray away from its original concept, bringing in the people who are just in it for the action. however, without combat it would certainly be harder for people to accept ns as what it was. for a newbie to enter a totally new game knowing nothing of the vast knowledge required that resides in this mod, it really was hard for me to accept ns. but once you get to know it, you get hooked. co helps newbies to gain that basic knowledge that they require.
<!--QuoteBegin-the x5+Apr 21 2005, 06:53 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (the x5 @ Apr 21 2005, 06:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I never liked them to begin with. I protested, was told to shut up, it went through anways. I warned that it would attract the CS player base, the reason I began to develop apathy for CS. (I like the game fine, great on LANs but the community as a whole is vicious and selfish)
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> This made me giggle. Here we are complaining about the "n00bs" that conbat attracts. Wishing they would go away or at least learn to like the game we learn. We insult them and call them names.. all because.. get this..
<b>THEY</b> come from a vicious and selfish community.
<!--QuoteBegin-Zunni+Apr 22 2005, 08:44 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zunni @ Apr 22 2005, 08:44 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The people who belittle and insult those who don't know classic haven't gone away, they have just found something new to blame people's ignorance of Classic on.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I hope this is not directed at my original post. I've got a bone to pick with the <i>attitude</i> that combat is more likely to spawn than classical, not the amount of knowlege a player has when it comes to the game. I'm more than happy to help a new person learn about NS. In fact, the other day we had a new player to NS (we were marines), and it felt great to explain what buildings do, how each team operates, and welcome him to the community. So long as people are willing to learn and be a bit more team-oriented, I think combat is fine. We all know how terrible the CS community has become.
Although change is nice and keeps things feeling fresh, combat has the potential to keep NS from sticking to its origins, and that's what I think people are worried about. Most (if not all of us) "grew up" with the tactical/action formula, and to see that fade <!--emo&::fade::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/fade.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='fade.gif' /><!--endemo--> away would tragic.
Hope this clarifies things. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Perhaps there should be a hybrid mode between Classic and Combat. Expose the strategy of Classic, but automate it so players concentrate on fighting, much like they do in Combat.
Recently I played a game of classic because I didn't remember why I had stopped doing so. As it turns out, because you have to be in a clan/one of those rare servers(like 5 total out of 400?) to get a somewhat playable game. Or simply really lucky, which didn't happen this particular time. I played classic constantly previously, but now I play NS once every three days or so, and only combat mode, simply because the games are fun, as long as the players aren't egotards. As opposed to mildly ignorant, which is all it takes to make a game of classic not-fun. Plus if there ARE egotards, well, the pain ends relatively quickly, as opposed to a long losing streak of 40 minutes because you, being the only person with an inch of skill, are keeping the team going out of sheer stubbornness and disgust for lamequitters.
So yeah, I make it worse for myself. By helping my team. Awesome game, this.
Everyone here who hates combat (btw swiftspear did his only produtive thing ever in owning all the "CO SUCKS!" people) just needs to avoid combat.
If you hate combat, avoid combat, and stop making posts saying how much you hate combat.
I hate classic. It's boring, slow, and my fun level is so dependant on my teamamtes, who are usually fools. I get little enjoyment out of it. Becuase of this I avoid classic servers and dont make new posts saying worthless things like "The Classic playerbase sucks."
As for the question on hand -- the actual combat maps -- I think most of the changes made were for the bad. Agnst and Daminos were pretty fun maps - and they still are- but then they were changed for some reason. These changes detract from the gameflow and the maps are not as enjoyable as they once were. As for the gameplay of combat, I am becoming a little annoyed. Some friends and I were playing on the marines and were unable to even slightly dent the aliens. They had 3 gorges and 3 or 4 onos. Throw in a 2 lerks and a couple of fades and you have an unbeatable winning combination. Webs are awesome, onos's blocking bullets and nades, and the constant gorge healing makes assaulting the hive with success a near impossiblity. If you are unable to kill the gorges, or deal enough damage to the hive to completly detroy it, by the time you can get back in the hive - all damage done has been healed.
I think the biggest unbalance to combat is the gorge.
Comments
Combat servers and combat players are teh suck.
That's why servers have admin_kick my friend.
Perhaps. But also consider this from the point of view of the game developers; Flayra needs a successful game as proof that he has a good concept and can implement it well if he wants to get funding for UWE for the next game (ie NS2). A mod with 600 players may be enough. A mod with 10,000 players is far more likely to be convincing don't you agree?
<!--QuoteBegin-omlette+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (omlette)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Players seem to be more self-centered and score oriented, rather than focusing on working as a team and using tactics.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
However you cannot say that this wasn't also the case back in the day before combat? I for one got tired of being rambo'd by JP/HMG rushes... (note I said rambo'd, not killed at the hive and then end-game ... they just fly around the map and sit around outside the hive. *g*)
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another thing every one seems to have forgotten is that about 95% of the competetive scene around the world revolves around classic. There are very few combat scrims/leauges/ladders ... While the competetive scene might not be the most active, it is certainly heading in the right direction
Sure i skip to co_ when my team on ns_ cant build the base and drop mines they just go killzor!(which is mostly due co_ <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> )
Yeah, I'm the guy that said it. Said it somewhere in the competitive forum I think.
To me, combat is only remotely fun as Aliens because you don't feel like you accomplish anything as marines, so I'll be staying away from combat (will go to practice devour and Fading only) for the most part.
Oh that, and aliens will win the vast majority of the time without team-stacking.
And for Gods sakes, are there any "virgin" Combat servers? I haven't found one...ever.
When I made my whole hoopla about the offical comunity map pack I found out that the VAST majority of those maps were not officially included simply because they were too glitchy and unbalanced to make the final cut. There are definatley problems with the custom mapping scene in NS, compared to other mods it is impossible to get your map signifigantly tested which is quite frustrating.
I'm still willing to look at putting together an offical mapping forum comunity map pack, but I need to get a forum up (meaning I need a better IS provider then I have now, which I have no money to purse) and a team of people willing to slug through map tests, hopefully one of them having an available dedicated server...
The NS team has to facilitate the NS compeditive scene, who has already been more then accomidating towards custom maps, as well. Which means it would be neglegent of them to include tonnes and tonnes of VERY poorly balanced NS maps into the offical roster. If you've acctually played a few games on the current builds of those custom maps you would know that they really aren't all that spiffy in terms of gameplay.
Combat is good for LAN to convince of playing some round of Natural Selection (if the others dont know the mod)
Combat is good for training some stuff and testing little things and check if they work.
Combat is worse because it tells people not the way classic works.
Combat is worse because it's pretty unbalanced.
That's why servers have admin_kick my friend. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
kick the alien player because the marines sucked so hard they were unable to kill a skulk.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Back in my day when I started, we didn't have any fancy schmancy combat to ease us it. I arrived as an NSPlayer, press off the IP, and followed 2 marines to horseshoe and was ambushed by 2 skulks. I surrvied that encounter, but didn't get any kills. Then, I was chomped in the next encounter. It was thrilling. It was fun. I worked harder, asked questions, to not die as easily next time. Everyone else did the same.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
DING DING nostalgy meter just flew off the chart. :D
Basically personally i only like 2 co maps and thats it co_blackmesa and co_reactor but every other co map i hate.
But as a server op i have to allow co maps because i found that they draw alot of new players in.
I find alot of co maps boring <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
But those 2 i find fun!
But like i said as a server op i have to play maps that draw players in and thats co maps atm!
That's why servers have admin_kick my friend. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
kick the alien player because the marines sucked so hard they were unable to kill a skulk. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
a celer onos is tougher stuff then anything besides a JP/HMG in combat. celer onos costs: 5 points, JP?HMG costs a minimum of: 7 points. Add on resupply and you get an extra point, but to be fair most onos won't be caught dead without regen anyways.
If someone is going to be lame and onos in a 3v3 (at least unless the other team asks for the aliens to end it already) then they can suck it up and deal with a kick, because that is just lame. It isn't like they are getting banned or something, they just get to lose all thier experiance and start over for thier lameness.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Back in my day when I started, we didn't have any fancy schmancy combat to ease us it. I arrived as an NSPlayer, press off the IP, and followed 2 marines to horseshoe and was ambushed by 2 skulks. I surrvied that encounter, but didn't get any kills. Then, I was chomped in the next encounter. It was thrilling. It was fun. I worked harder, asked questions, to not die as easily next time. Everyone else did the same.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
DING DING nostalgy meter just flew off the chart. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I came in back in those days too. I hated it, never got to com (until I fudged through a few rounds with bots on both teams) never played as fade or ono (couldn't affort to waste team res), pretty much the only thing I got good at was HMGing the crap out of those wimpy onos with thier really small hitboxes and premagorging like no tommorrow.
Focus
Xeno
Mass Onos
Or a marine team spamming gls
Combat is fun, but it needs to be balanced, oh dont forget webs, if you have them there is no way for marines to win without spamming gl.
Combat past 3-5 minutes = spam fest
WHY IN GODS NAME DO SERVER ADMINS SET THE TIME LIMIT ANYWHERE BEYOND 20 MINUTES MAKES ME CRY. Most CO servers have 20+ minute timers and a crap load of dumb plugins.
Focus
Xeno
Mass Onos
Or a marine team spamming gls
Combat is fun, but it needs to be balanced, oh dont forget webs, if you have them there is no way for marines to win without spamming gl.
Combat past 3-5 minutes = spam fest
WHY IN GODS NAME DO SERVER ADMINS SET THE TIME LIMIT ANYWHERE BEYOND 20 MINUTES MAKES ME CRY. Most CO servers have 20+ minute timers and a crap load of dumb plugins. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
On my server by mass reequest the combat timer is unlimited.
Our co maps last upto between 30min and 1hr 10min (depending on the map) e.g. co_blackmesa on average on my server lasts 55 min and thats 55 min of fun <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
It really depends on the server you go on and the server size.....
Basically personally i only like 2 co maps and thats it co_blackmesa and co_reactor but every other co map i hate.
But as a server op i have to allow co maps because i found that they draw alot of new players in.
I find alot of co maps boring <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
But those 2 i find fun!
But like i said as a server op i have to play maps that draw players in and thats co maps atm! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Stop by The Nutz if you're bored with Combat maps. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
To answer the original question, I think some of them are interesting and can be innovative, co_daimos with preplaced pg's, and I certainly feel co_sava as a map is atmospheric.
As for gameplay, I love Combat period, as a play type when I only have 5-10 minutes it's outstanding... For times when I need to practice specific skills (fading, lerking etc) at a low cost to my team (I can try things, die and re-evolve) there is no parallel.
In terms of the CO playerbase, I have seen many people move from CO to NS.. And for those who enjoy combat, there is no harm/foul to simply continue playing CO as long as they want.. I think the people who complain about the people who move (and aren't familiar with the game) are the same people who complainned about those who used to come straight into NS:Classic and didn't have any clue what was going on, except these people (combat conversions) have had some experience, know the alien classes/weapons and have an simpler (imo) time of switching since they just need to learn the res structure and building, and specific strategies (instead of having to learn the entire game). All combat did was open a bridge to other gaming communities and we have expanded because of it. The people who belittle and insult those who don't know classic haven't gone away, they have just found something new to blame people's ignorance of Classic on.
Again, my 2 cents as a player..
As for combat being for learning, thats laughable, all combat does is teach you how to play combat, multiple upgrades from each chamber.. pfft.
I think the main people who have problems with combat, is the ones who played since the start, and learned how to play the games roles at a cost to the team, I still stand by the idea of having 2 seperate installers for both client and server.
Horseshoe? Where's that? <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Again, my 2 cents as a player.. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I disagree. I know personally I always extended friendship and helped to take newbies under my wing. Once I remember me and another old pro once had a team of almost entirely newbies. I offered to help them learn, they accepted and followed me arround the whole game. Despite the aliens team being almost entirely or completely experienced players having my newbie minions follow me everywhere made for some devastating teamwork which of course led to us winning and many thank yous towards me. I frequently encourge others to welcome and offer to help new players to learn, everyone was a newbie once so make the experince fun so they can't wait to come back to play. It's kind of part of a community purpose we should all share.
Yes combat can be fun and silly but for me the flavor of NS is a serious, hardcore FPS/RTS. I enjoy a NS game against nearly impossible odd and only me few friends who will teamwork well with each other to pull it off. It makes such an imapct that I actually remember most of the names and personal characters of the people who played with me.
It's untrue that the people who dislike Combat are just blaming ignorance on it from the n00b thing that has always existed. What a terribly prejudiced assumption, not what I think they are saying and I agree with is that Combat, beacuse it is a "bridge" it attacting more CS and TFC players who just want to goof around and cut up which sometimes is fun but with that group comes more cheaters, ragers, your myg0t people, and generally a group who is very selfish and unkind to others.
I also dislike how we felt the need to conform to the "typical DM FPS game" inorder to pecome more popular. If NS was a product you sold then yes by all means, more popular means more buyers, means more sales, means more income for hardworking developers. HOWEVER, NS is a free mod which is good buy shoudl also no need that objective. It's better to have a more refined community and being different fromt he crowd. I frequently say that we have a lack of pride in our uniqueness, especially among development.
<i>I don't think we should remove Combat now as now we have people who love only Combat and that wouldn't be fair to ruin their fun.</i> We have to be considerate of CO players as they are a members of the NS community where you like it or not, even if you have only met ones who were jerks to you, and <b><i>deserve your respect</i></b>. What I do think is fair is that we continue the seperation of NS and CO varibles so we can balance them independantly. I've said that months and months ago, and it's still true now. As well as my offer on the table.
That and I worry. I hope NS isn't becomming extinct to CO, that would be a black day in gamming history indeed. I love NS too much. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
This made me giggle. Here we are complaining about the "n00bs" that conbat attracts. Wishing they would go away or at least learn to like the game we learn. We insult them and call them names.. all because.. get this..
<b>THEY</b> come from a vicious and selfish community.
LOL
I hope this is not directed at my original post. I've got a bone to pick with the <i>attitude</i> that combat is more likely to spawn than classical, not the amount of knowlege a player has when it comes to the game. I'm more than happy to help a new person learn about NS. In fact, the other day we had a new player to NS (we were marines), and it felt great to explain what buildings do, how each team operates, and welcome him to the community. So long as people are willing to learn and be a bit more team-oriented, I think combat is fine. We all know how terrible the CS community has become.
Although change is nice and keeps things feeling fresh, combat has the potential to keep NS from sticking to its origins, and that's what I think people are worried about. Most (if not all of us) "grew up" with the tactical/action formula, and to see that fade <!--emo&::fade::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/fade.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='fade.gif' /><!--endemo--> away would tragic.
Hope this clarifies things. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I played classic constantly previously, but now I play NS once every three days or so, and only combat mode, simply because the games are fun, as long as the players aren't egotards. As opposed to mildly ignorant, which is all it takes to make a game of classic not-fun. Plus if there ARE egotards, well, the pain ends relatively quickly, as opposed to a long losing streak of 40 minutes because you, being the only person with an inch of skill, are keeping the team going out of sheer stubbornness and disgust for lamequitters.
So yeah, I make it worse for myself. By helping my team. Awesome game, this.
If you hate combat, avoid combat, and stop making posts saying how much you hate combat.
I hate classic. It's boring, slow, and my fun level is so dependant on my teamamtes, who are usually fools. I get little enjoyment out of it. Becuase of this I avoid classic servers and dont make new posts saying worthless things like "The Classic playerbase sucks."
As for the question on hand -- the actual combat maps -- I think most of the changes made were for the bad. Agnst and Daminos were pretty fun maps - and they still are- but then they were changed for some reason. These changes detract from the gameflow and the maps are not as enjoyable as they once were. As for the gameplay of combat, I am becoming a little annoyed. Some friends and I were playing on the marines and were unable to even slightly dent the aliens. They had 3 gorges and 3 or 4 onos. Throw in a 2 lerks and a couple of fades and you have an unbeatable winning combination. Webs are awesome, onos's blocking bullets and nades, and the constant gorge healing makes assaulting the hive with success a near impossiblity. If you are unable to kill the gorges, or deal enough damage to the hive to completly detroy it, by the time you can get back in the hive - all damage done has been healed.
I think the biggest unbalance to combat is the gorge.