ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
Yeah but they still blame us for scripting even on bs_1 servers <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
IT's fun when people accuse you of using a "Fade script" to instantly pwn all nearby marines, as if scripts can aim for you.
idd, people seem to think that scripts are an unintentional part of the half-life engine, where infact they are fully intentional, and the same alias based scripting is included in hl2. (only enhanced apparently)
The sooner people realise that they are harmless, the better of we will be. I mean its only a game, and we all customise games to suit ourselfs, be it just rebinding keys.
Someone wanted me banned from a server because when I asked for meds it also showed in teamsay that I needed a medpack. Therefore my entire config must be scripted, where in truth, everyones config is scripted... only thru hard coded scripts.
I personally haven't seen a league server with bs 1 and consistency 0... thats a little odd tbh, that shows they don't allow a pistol script, but allow a model that has little lines pointing out of it everywhere, so you can see them behind walls and anywhere... odd.
I think regardless of whether scripts are abusive or not, it comes down to how you want to see the game played. It seems like the majority of the european clans dont want to have to care about scripting to play the game, and therefor like their leagues and tournaments to run bs 1. The opposit seems to be true for american clans.
It's as you say, it all comes down to choice and convenience. And it seems like the majority of the european players feel that it is more convenient not to have to bother to think about scripts at all, and their choice is bs 1.
Also, saying that pistol scripts are purely convenciance or that they dont affect the ability of a player to perform is utter bull. It does.
The only script that I really need is +3jump becuase using mwheel feels weird ;o I don't see why they just don't make +3jump the normal in game jump. ;\ Or even make it an option in the advanced menu with a little checkbox.
As minstrel said macros outside of game can do the same things and are impossible to detect so why bother, it is only seperating many North American clanners from North American pub servers.
Minstrel_KnightThe truth and nothing but the truth...Join Date: 2002-11-21Member: 9562Banned
edited April 2005
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Wigglewalk script, which is more abusive then pistol scripts by a long shot, and is quite possible to do without _special still.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's hardly abusive when marines can sustain equal speed with basic glide jumping/wall strafing movement.
<!--QuoteBegin-Raz+Apr 24 2005, 12:25 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Raz @ Apr 24 2005, 12:25 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I would like to see a single gameplay script named besides pistol script (which many here have said repeatedly that it doesn't help much at all) and 3jump which just lets you use spacebar.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Adrenaline conservation/blink-swipe script, pancake, wiggle, rate scripts, fast reload cancel, fast walk, showevents.
ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
<!--QuoteBegin-Minstrel Knight+Apr 24 2005, 10:54 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Minstrel Knight @ Apr 24 2005, 10:54 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Wigglewalk script, which is more abusive then pistol scripts by a long shot, and is quite possible to do without _special still.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's hardly abusive when marines can sustain equal speed with basic glide jumping/wall strafing movement.
<!--QuoteBegin-Raz+Apr 24 2005, 12:25 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Raz @ Apr 24 2005, 12:25 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I would like to see a single gameplay script named besides pistol script (which many here have said repeatedly that it doesn't help much at all) and 3jump which just lets you use spacebar.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Adrenaline conservation/blink-swipe script, pancake, wiggle, rate scripts, fast reload cancel, fast walk, showevents. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Huh?
blink-swipe scripts? energy conservation scripts? fast walk? reload cancel? WTH are you smoking?
Wiggle is the only one out of the list that people might use. Nobody uses the rest of those scripts. I'm not even sure what an energy conservation script would LOOK like. Anyone have an idea? Probably not because nobody uses one! I doubt one that works has ever been written.
Minstrel_KnightThe truth and nothing but the truth...Join Date: 2002-11-21Member: 9562Banned
<!--QuoteBegin-Church+Apr 24 2005, 11:28 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Church @ Apr 24 2005, 11:28 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> blink-swipe scripts? energy conservation scripts? fast walk? reload cancel? WTH are you smoking?
Wiggle is the only one out of the list that people might use. Nobody uses the rest of those scripts. I'm not even sure what an energy conservation script would LOOK like. Anyone have an idea? Probably not because nobody uses one! I doubt one that works has ever been written. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> alias a1 "+attack;wait;-attack;wait" Is what an energy conservation script looks like. It is generally bound to mouse1 when selecting blink, mustang, myself and some other folks use it. Blink swipe is generally something like bind space so when it is held down blink is selected and when space is released swipe is selected, often used in conjunction with energy conservation script.
Fast walk is what the name suggests, would rather not spread it around. Reload cancel is just something along the lines of switching to knife then back to lmg with 1 key with some stopsounds thrown in to get rid of the unnecessary weapon change noises.
Keep dreaming that no one uses scripts like this if you like.
<!--QuoteBegin-Diablo fx+Apr 24 2005, 10:36 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Diablo fx @ Apr 24 2005, 10:36 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I still don't see why mp_bs is needed when _special is gone. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Quoted for truth and the same question applies. Why is it still here?
Hey, we've got a few good responses here, lets not diverge into a discussion concerning types of scripts though.
Question: In regards to leagues and scripting, should a physicaly handicaped person be allowed to script in a bs_0 league? For example, JoeBob has 3 fingers and 1 thumb on his left hand, and in order to compete at the same level as other players (switching weapons, movement) should JoeBob be allowed to script those actions (that would otherwise be blocked by bs_1). Note this is a theoretical question, I wouldnt the dandiest to figure out how to implement it.
Or, lets take imaginary team A and team B. Team A uses no scripts what so ever, in a league the does not script. Team B uses scripts in one form or another, in a league that allows scripts.
In comparison, both teams are equally matched skill wise. How would one team fair over the other in a bs_1 match (both teams with standard keyset) and a bs_0 match (CAL rules, for an example)?
with mp_<span style='color:orange'>bs</span> 1 The scripting team would suffer a slight lose, because they have to play with different controls/ another way then they are used to.
With mp_<span style='color:orange'>bs</span> 0 I'd say both teams are equal, because everybody is free to play as they like to, but beware the non-scripters will argue that they only won b/c they scripted.
Adren cons is done by many such as Duo by quick weapon switching. I personally don't use it and have little problem with conservation.
blink-swipe sucks, it hinders you more than it helps.
I've never seen a pancake scripter, but I imagine it'd hinder you in the middle of playing the same as other scripts like that. The fact that noone uses it could mean something.
wiggle locks your controls while using it. Go ahead, get that extra tiny bit of speed. Skulks will love you for it.
rate scripts? lol. illegal in cal anyway.
fast reload cancel? I can cancel manually just as fast. non-issue.
<!--QuoteBegin-tjosan+Apr 24 2005, 03:56 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (tjosan @ Apr 24 2005, 03:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Fast walk is <b>not</b> the same thing as wiggle. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Indeed. Fast walk means you move faster then walking speed perfectly silently (as if you were walking). I can do this for short periods manually, but I don't see how a script is needed for it as the actions involved are fairly articulate, and most likely be hard to get a script to do for you well...
Pretty much an empty debate, there has been no problems on the NA side, and no problems on the Euro side, with regards to script complaints.
Pretty much a moot subject. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> An empty debate?
You mean to tell me that scripting has little to no effect on competitve play, and that scripting has no effect on the outcome of matches? Would you consider, for example, scripts that are exploitive (ie wiggle walk script) be allowed in every match, even if the map is designed to be balanced with marines moving at a gameplay speed and not the exploitive speed? (Note, I dont want to get into a debate here concerning what scripts ARE and ARE NOT exploitive, perhaps another thread... another discussion, but for the sake of arguement here I am using the wiggle walk script AS an exploitive one).
What effect does bs_1 have on competitive gameplay? What do you lose when you cant script on bs_0 matches? What can be said from the point of view of players who compete without scripts? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The point of views of those who use BS and those who do not are as seperate as the contintents the players from groups reside on.
Unfortunately, international competition has always had its hiccups due to server latency. I have experienced this first hand. (sYn, vs European teams)
If one group wants to think they are better than the other, then they are entitled to. There are great players on American side, just as there are great players on the European side.
Since there really is no competition anymore (as USA team fails to field an adequate roster to represent the USA) It really doesn't matter if the europeans don't use scripts, as they have no affect on their gameplay. When I say the Europeans, I mean those teams that strictly play in European leagues. The euro clans in CAL clearly would be entitled to use scripts.
The only real way to see if europeans were better than the americans and vice-versa would be to play at a LAN competition, similar to that of the CPL.
NS is not significant enough to make it to any major competition for money. So both teams would have to make it to a mutual location with an adequate network (and their own equipment) on their own dime with no chance of getting any prize money from a sponsor. They could of course place a bet, but who has the money to do that?
Since it is unreasonable for both teams to do that. This debate is empty, and the point is moot.
Wiggle is the only one out of the list that people might use. Nobody uses the rest of those scripts. I'm not even sure what an energy conservation script would LOOK like. Anyone have an idea? Probably not because nobody uses one! I doubt one that works has ever been written. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> alias a1 "+attack;wait;-attack;wait" Is what an energy conservation script looks like. It is generally bound to mouse1 when selecting blink, mustang, myself and some other folks use it. Blink swipe is generally something like bind space so when it is held down blink is selected and when space is released swipe is selected, often used in conjunction with energy conservation script.
Fast walk is what the name suggests, would rather not spread it around. Reload cancel is just something along the lines of switching to knife then back to lmg with 1 key with some stopsounds thrown in to get rid of the unnecessary weapon change noises.
Keep dreaming that no one uses scripts like this if you like. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> bind mwheel +attack is your energy conservation script... not a big deal
blink swipe scripts aren't preferred by a lot of good fades
reload cancel... you don't need a script to do this
In fact, you don't need a script to do any of these, just grab a macro.
The reason bs_1 is stupid is because of macros. There is no way to detect someone who uses a macro, and the macro isn't exactly "3rd party software" if it's a driver option built into your mouse or keyboard. How can you ban someone for that? Impossible to catch someone using a macro.
Firewater, I dont know how you interpreted my question as getting European clans to play American clans, although I did use NA players as prone to scripting and European players as prone to not.
In regards to the question I asked, hypothetical... or moot as it seems, you did not really answer. To put it bluntly, what if CAL goes bs 0 for a season, would players refuse to participate, would some clans do more poorly then the previous season? Players pitch the idea that scripting and non scripting are simply two different playing styles, and skill is the only defining characteristic of a Clan that will win and a Clan that wont.
As in my previous example, would you (this is a general question to anyone) say that if two teams are of equal skillset that the team scripting doesnt have any advantage over the team that doesnt use scripts?
GrendelAll that is fear...Join Date: 2002-07-19Member: 970Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, NS2 Playtester
<!--QuoteBegin-Minstrel Knight+Apr 23 2005, 07:18 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Minstrel Knight @ Apr 23 2005, 07:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> In the event of blockscripts people will either use workarounds to use scripts or use macros in their place. Much the way that the ns developers hardly fix anything only make the method to exploit it more obscure making it the province of even fewer people. 1.04 r_drawviewmodel 0 in console 2.0->3.0b5 _special r_drawviewmodel -> 3.0f macro r_drawviewmodel. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> All methods of fixing exploits will tend to lead down this path when you don't have access to the source code.
<!--QuoteBegin-digz+Apr 25 2005, 12:07 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (digz @ Apr 25 2005, 12:07 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Firewater, I dont know how you interpreted my question as getting European clans to play American clans, although I did use NA players as prone to scripting and European players as prone to not.
In regards to the question I asked, hypothetical... or moot as it seems, you did not really answer. To put it bluntly, what if CAL goes bs 0 for a season, would players refuse to participate, would some clans do more poorly then the previous season? Players pitch the idea that scripting and non scripting are simply two different playing styles, and skill is the only defining characteristic of a Clan that will win and a Clan that wont.
As in my previous example, would you (this is a general question to anyone) say that if two teams are of equal skillset that the team scripting doesnt have any advantage over the team that doesnt use scripts? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Those who cannot adapt or choose not to adapt will not play.
I don't recall CAL having banning scripting in general, just certain scripts.
Since Europeans use BS_1 and Americans use BS 0 would it not be logical to conclude that the groups for comparison have in an international basis? If not I would be open to an alternative explanation
Your "skill" arguement is only relevant between continents with few exceptions.
Those exceptions are not the same as taking the best from both groups and comparing them.
We can never really tell if scripting provides that much of an advantage, because both sides either use scripts, or do not. NA teams generally use scripts, Euro teams do not use scripts. There really isn't an NA team that doesn't use scripts, and all the Euro teams due to restriction do not use scripts.
My international debate is still relevant, since those are the two MAIN groups who either use scripts or do not due to league rules.
I wish euro leagues would use bs 0, mainly because with scripts, it's easier to play. I have to think less about what I'm doing less and I am a very lazy person.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Since Europeans use BS_1 and Americans use BS 0 would it not be logical to conclude that the groups for comparison have in an international basis?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This I can understand. So, iirc, you are saying the only reason we dont see any real results to this question is because of latency (distance) issues between two clans (one that chooses to script and one that doesn't). So what we need is an american clan that doesnt script, and is relatively skilled.
Hop to it <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-digz+Apr 25 2005, 10:14 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (digz @ Apr 25 2005, 10:14 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Since Europeans use BS_1 and Americans use BS 0 would it not be logical to conclude that the groups for comparison have in an international basis?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This I can understand. So, iirc, you are saying the only reason we dont see any real results to this question is because of latency (distance) issues between two clans (one that chooses to script and one that doesn't). So what we need is an american clan that doesnt script, and is relatively skilled.
Hop to it <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> It would be more likely solution to have a European clan use scripts, rather than an American clan not use scripts.
There seems to be more demand in the European leagues to allow some scripts (the size of this demand is up to debate, but is still there regardless)
Most, if not all, American teams either use scripts themselves, or don't use scripts but are different to those who do use them.
It is easier to go from not using scripts, to using scripts, than the other way around.
Which is why the european league would have an easier time adjusting.
Btw, anyone could point me to a lagel program that lets me rebind mouse2 to anything?
Thanks,
And for the bet, well duh with scripts.. Because, really if you are used to do something in Method 1, then of course you wouldn't be as good as it with Method 2.
My 2 øre (danish sub-money type of equal to cent <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->)
<!--QuoteBegin-Diablo fx+Apr 26 2005, 08:48 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Diablo fx @ Apr 26 2005, 08:48 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Btw, anyone could point me to a lagel program that lets me rebind mouse2 to anything?
I think people are reading too much into these questions <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> Plain and simple, I believe that a team that scripts would have an advantage over a non scripting team. Now when I say advantage, Im not saying "uber scripts to play teh game for ju!" or "scripts give you skills", Im talking about the differences between the two playing styles. Which, the concensus here I gather is scripting does make things easier (be it an alias that binds your "say_team" health request to a radio call, or one that unloads a pistol at max rate of fire).
Here is my thoughts on Pros to scripting: Less key smashing. Removes amount of keys needing to be pressed at once (ie, the sixth finger syndrome) Remove the disadvantage of taking your hands off the directional keys(arrows/wasd/etc) to change weapons. Minimizes the time between actions (ie removes human error in switching weapons)
Would someone like to continue with the cons of scripting... then even perhaps some pros/cons to non scriptering?
Some cons for using scripts? - Depending on the complexity of the script there is the initial learning curve one has to deal with, but you also have to deal with the same thing with any new key arrangment anyway. - Some scripts just aren't fool proof and have their own limitations that you have to keep in mind when using them. Maybe sometimes you have to give up something in order to use a script.
Pros for vanilla configs? - Simple "out of the box" appeal
Cons for vanilla configs? - The motions it takes to execute some actions with no aliases or special binds are not always the most effecient or is outside the comfort zone for a particular player - Limited to only a mostly static key configuration. No way of having dynamic changes made to bindings or client settings on the fly, but is instead left to use an interface to change settings or if the player is savvy enough, change settings within a CFG file or console and limited to those actions alone.
<!--c1--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>CODE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='CODE'><!--ec1--> alias +unreload "slot3; wait" alias -unreload "lastinv" <!--c2--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--ec2--> This isn't blocked by mp_bs - your arguement just failed and your slip is showing.
<!--QuoteBegin-ultranewb+Apr 26 2005, 01:56 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (ultranewb @ Apr 26 2005, 01:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--c1--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>CODE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='CODE'><!--ec1--> alias +unreload "slot3; wait" alias -unreload "lastinv" <!--c2--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--ec2--> This isn't blocked by mp_bs - your arguement just failed and your slip is showing. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> It is still a script, and one might argue that blocking only part of the alledged advantage giving scripts is better than blocking none of them. The arguement still holds.
TheAdjHe demanded a cool forum title of some type.Join Date: 2004-05-03Member: 28436Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
Good lord haven't we beat this horse to pieces yet. If you want to compare scripting, I can have my wife send you all my lerk demos. I have mutliple demos from bs 1 and many from bs 0. You'll notice a difference in playing style, yet the overall skill level is unaffected.
<!--QuoteBegin-digz+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (digz)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Here is my thoughts on Pros to scripting: 1Less key smashing. 2Removes amount of keys needing to be pressed at once (ie, the sixth finger syndrome) 3Remove the disadvantage of taking your hands off the directional keys(arrows/wasd/etc) to change weapons. 4Minimizes the time between actions (ie removes human error in switching weapons) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1) There are many ways to not script and reduce key smashing (I lerk and almost never have to "smash" keys) 2) Once again, proper key setups alleviate the need for mutations to get more fingers/hands/arms 3) You do not have to remove your hands from the directional keys. There is a reason Microsoft and Logitech make 5 button mice (and do not use the left handed argument: I AM left handed, I use a 4 button mouse with a single thumb button, and have never had a problem with switching weapons. I also do not use wasd, so the numbers aren't RIGHT THERE in front of my movement hand like you righties have). 4) There is more error in scripting weapon switching than doing so manually with direct weapon binds. "bind mouse4 slot 2" "bind mouse2 slot 1" "bind mouse5 slot 3" is more accurate, reliable, and faster than any script you can come up with.
In other words, none of the things you listed as advantages for scripting are really advantages to scripting. What you listed were problems inherent to any FPS game that affect the novice gamer. Once you learn how to control the game more, a better control setup is possible, and this fixes most, if not all, of the problems beyond basic end user skill.
TheAdj, that's why I made my script, Form.. so I can change how I select weapons the way I see it best. I would prefer 1 key toggling between pistol and the primary weapon than two keys to two different weapons.
Comments
IT's fun when people accuse you of using a "Fade script" to instantly pwn all nearby marines, as if scripts can aim for you.
The sooner people realise that they are harmless, the better of we will be. I mean its only a game, and we all customise games to suit ourselfs, be it just rebinding keys.
Someone wanted me banned from a server because when I asked for meds it also showed in teamsay that I needed a medpack. Therefore my entire config must be scripted, where in truth, everyones config is scripted... only thru hard coded scripts.
I personally haven't seen a league server with bs 1 and consistency 0... thats a little odd tbh, that shows they don't allow a pistol script, but allow a model that has little lines pointing out of it everywhere, so you can see them behind walls and anywhere... odd.
It's as you say, it all comes down to choice and convenience. And it seems like the majority of the european players feel that it is more convenient not to have to bother to think about scripts at all, and their choice is bs 1.
Also, saying that pistol scripts are purely convenciance or that they dont affect the ability of a player to perform is utter bull. It does.
As minstrel said macros outside of game can do the same things and are impossible to detect so why bother, it is only seperating many North American clanners from North American pub servers.
It's hardly abusive when marines can sustain equal speed with basic glide jumping/wall strafing movement.
<!--QuoteBegin-Raz+Apr 24 2005, 12:25 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Raz @ Apr 24 2005, 12:25 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I would like to see a single gameplay script named besides pistol script (which many here have said repeatedly that it doesn't help much at all) and 3jump which just lets you use spacebar.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Adrenaline conservation/blink-swipe script, pancake, wiggle, rate scripts, fast reload cancel, fast walk, showevents.
It's hardly abusive when marines can sustain equal speed with basic glide jumping/wall strafing movement.
<!--QuoteBegin-Raz+Apr 24 2005, 12:25 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Raz @ Apr 24 2005, 12:25 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I would like to see a single gameplay script named besides pistol script (which many here have said repeatedly that it doesn't help much at all) and 3jump which just lets you use spacebar.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Adrenaline conservation/blink-swipe script, pancake, wiggle, rate scripts, fast reload cancel, fast walk, showevents. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Huh?
blink-swipe scripts? energy conservation scripts? fast walk? reload cancel? WTH are you smoking?
Wiggle is the only one out of the list that people might use. Nobody uses the rest of those scripts. I'm not even sure what an energy conservation script would LOOK like. Anyone have an idea? Probably not because nobody uses one! I doubt one that works has ever been written.
Wiggle is the only one out of the list that people might use. Nobody uses the rest of those scripts. I'm not even sure what an energy conservation script would LOOK like. Anyone have an idea? Probably not because nobody uses one! I doubt one that works has ever been written. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
alias a1 "+attack;wait;-attack;wait"
Is what an energy conservation script looks like. It is generally bound to mouse1 when selecting blink, mustang, myself and some other folks use it. Blink swipe is generally something like bind space so when it is held down blink is selected and when space is released swipe is selected, often used in conjunction with energy conservation script.
Fast walk is what the name suggests, would rather not spread it around. Reload cancel is just something along the lines of switching to knife then back to lmg with 1 key with some stopsounds thrown in to get rid of the unnecessary weapon change noises.
Keep dreaming that no one uses scripts like this if you like.
Quoted for truth and the same question applies. Why is it still here?
Question: In regards to leagues and scripting, should a physicaly handicaped person be allowed to script in a bs_0 league? For example, JoeBob has 3 fingers and 1 thumb on his left hand, and in order to compete at the same level as other players (switching weapons, movement) should JoeBob be allowed to script those actions (that would otherwise be blocked by bs_1). Note this is a theoretical question, I wouldnt the dandiest to figure out how to implement it.
Or, lets take imaginary team A and team B. Team A uses no scripts what so ever, in a league the does not script. Team B uses scripts in one form or another, in a league that allows scripts.
In comparison, both teams are equally matched skill wise. How would one team fair over the other in a bs_1 match (both teams with standard keyset) and a bs_0 match (CAL rules, for an example)?
The scripting team would suffer a slight lose, because they have to play with different controls/ another way then they are used to.
With mp_<span style='color:orange'>bs</span> 0
I'd say both teams are equal, because everybody is free to play as they like to, but beware the non-scripters will argue that they only won b/c they scripted.
Something like that?
Adren cons is done by many such as Duo by quick weapon switching. I personally don't use it and have little problem with conservation.
blink-swipe sucks, it hinders you more than it helps.
I've never seen a pancake scripter, but I imagine it'd hinder you in the middle of playing the same as other scripts like that. The fact that noone uses it could mean something.
wiggle locks your controls while using it. Go ahead, get that extra tiny bit of speed. Skulks will love you for it.
rate scripts? lol. illegal in cal anyway.
fast reload cancel? I can cancel manually just as fast. non-issue.
fast walk seems to be the same thing as wiggle.
Showevents? What exactly is that?
Or for the more extravegent of us, mashing lastinv 50 times in a minute.
Indeed. Fast walk means you move faster then walking speed perfectly silently (as if you were walking). I can do this for short periods manually, but I don't see how a script is needed for it as the actions involved are fairly articulate, and most likely be hard to get a script to do for you well...
Pretty much an empty debate, there has been no problems on the NA side, and no problems on the Euro side, with regards to script complaints.
Pretty much a moot subject. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
An empty debate?
You mean to tell me that scripting has little to no effect on competitve play, and that scripting has no effect on the outcome of matches? Would you consider, for example, scripts that are exploitive (ie wiggle walk script) be allowed in every match, even if the map is designed to be balanced with marines moving at a gameplay speed and not the exploitive speed? (Note, I dont want to get into a debate here concerning what scripts ARE and ARE NOT exploitive, perhaps another thread... another discussion, but for the sake of arguement here I am using the wiggle walk script AS an exploitive one).
What effect does bs_1 have on competitive gameplay? What do you lose when you cant script on bs_0 matches? What can be said from the point of view of players who compete without scripts? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
The point of views of those who use BS and those who do not are as seperate as the contintents the players from groups reside on.
Unfortunately, international competition has always had its hiccups due to server latency. I have experienced this first hand. (sYn, vs European teams)
If one group wants to think they are better than the other, then they are entitled to. There are great players on American side, just as there are great players on the European side.
Since there really is no competition anymore (as USA team fails to field an adequate roster to represent the USA) It really doesn't matter if the europeans don't use scripts, as they have no affect on their gameplay. When I say the Europeans, I mean those teams that strictly play in European leagues. The euro clans in CAL clearly would be entitled to use scripts.
The only real way to see if europeans were better than the americans and vice-versa would be to play at a LAN competition, similar to that of the CPL.
NS is not significant enough to make it to any major competition for money. So both teams would have to make it to a mutual location with an adequate network (and their own equipment) on their own dime with no chance of getting any prize money from a sponsor. They could of course place a bet, but who has the money to do that?
Since it is unreasonable for both teams to do that. This debate is empty, and the point is moot.
Thanks <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Wiggle is the only one out of the list that people might use. Nobody uses the rest of those scripts. I'm not even sure what an energy conservation script would LOOK like. Anyone have an idea? Probably not because nobody uses one! I doubt one that works has ever been written. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
alias a1 "+attack;wait;-attack;wait"
Is what an energy conservation script looks like. It is generally bound to mouse1 when selecting blink, mustang, myself and some other folks use it. Blink swipe is generally something like bind space so when it is held down blink is selected and when space is released swipe is selected, often used in conjunction with energy conservation script.
Fast walk is what the name suggests, would rather not spread it around. Reload cancel is just something along the lines of switching to knife then back to lmg with 1 key with some stopsounds thrown in to get rid of the unnecessary weapon change noises.
Keep dreaming that no one uses scripts like this if you like. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
bind mwheel +attack is your energy conservation script... not a big deal
blink swipe scripts aren't preferred by a lot of good fades
reload cancel... you don't need a script to do this
In fact, you don't need a script to do any of these, just grab a macro.
The reason bs_1 is stupid is because of macros. There is no way to detect someone who uses a macro, and the macro isn't exactly "3rd party software" if it's a driver option built into your mouse or keyboard. How can you ban someone for that? Impossible to catch someone using a macro.
In regards to the question I asked, hypothetical... or moot as it seems, you did not really answer. To put it bluntly, what if CAL goes bs 0 for a season, would players refuse to participate, would some clans do more poorly then the previous season? Players pitch the idea that scripting and non scripting are simply two different playing styles, and skill is the only defining characteristic of a Clan that will win and a Clan that wont.
As in my previous example, would you (this is a general question to anyone) say that if two teams are of equal skillset that the team scripting doesnt have any advantage over the team that doesnt use scripts?
All methods of fixing exploits will tend to lead down this path when you don't have access to the source code.
In regards to the question I asked, hypothetical... or moot as it seems, you did not really answer. To put it bluntly, what if CAL goes bs 0 for a season, would players refuse to participate, would some clans do more poorly then the previous season? Players pitch the idea that scripting and non scripting are simply two different playing styles, and skill is the only defining characteristic of a Clan that will win and a Clan that wont.
As in my previous example, would you (this is a general question to anyone) say that if two teams are of equal skillset that the team scripting doesnt have any advantage over the team that doesnt use scripts? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Those who cannot adapt or choose not to adapt will not play.
I don't recall CAL having banning scripting in general, just certain scripts.
Since Europeans use BS_1 and Americans use BS 0 would it not be logical to conclude that the groups for comparison have in an international basis? If not I would be open to an alternative explanation
Your "skill" arguement is only relevant between continents with few exceptions.
Those exceptions are not the same as taking the best from both groups and comparing them.
We can never really tell if scripting provides that much of an advantage, because both sides either use scripts, or do not. NA teams generally use scripts, Euro teams do not use scripts. There really isn't an NA team that doesn't use scripts, and all the Euro teams due to restriction do not use scripts.
My international debate is still relevant, since those are the two MAIN groups who either use scripts or do not due to league rules.
who is your money on?
This I can understand. So, iirc, you are saying the only reason we dont see any real results to this question is because of latency (distance) issues between two clans (one that chooses to script and one that doesn't). So what we need is an american clan that doesnt script, and is relatively skilled.
Hop to it <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
This I can understand. So, iirc, you are saying the only reason we dont see any real results to this question is because of latency (distance) issues between two clans (one that chooses to script and one that doesn't). So what we need is an american clan that doesnt script, and is relatively skilled.
Hop to it <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
It would be more likely solution to have a European clan use scripts, rather than an American clan not use scripts.
There seems to be more demand in the European leagues to allow some scripts (the size of this demand is up to debate, but is still there regardless)
Most, if not all, American teams either use scripts themselves, or don't use scripts but are different to those who do use them.
It is easier to go from not using scripts, to using scripts, than the other way around.
Which is why the european league would have an easier time adjusting.
Thanks,
And for the bet, well duh with scripts..
Because, really if you are used to do something in Method 1, then of course you wouldn't be as good as it with Method 2.
My 2 øre (danish sub-money type of equal to cent <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->)
Thanks <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
<a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showforum=62' target='_blank'>http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showforum=62</a>
I think people are reading too much into these questions <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> Plain and simple, I believe that a team that scripts would have an advantage over a non scripting team. Now when I say advantage, Im not saying "uber scripts to play teh game for ju!" or "scripts give you skills", Im talking about the differences between the two playing styles. Which, the concensus here I gather is scripting does make things easier (be it an alias that binds your "say_team" health request to a radio call, or one that unloads a pistol at max rate of fire).
Here is my thoughts on Pros to scripting:
Less key smashing.
Removes amount of keys needing to be pressed at once (ie, the sixth finger syndrome)
Remove the disadvantage of taking your hands off the directional keys(arrows/wasd/etc) to change weapons.
Minimizes the time between actions (ie removes human error in switching weapons)
Would someone like to continue with the cons of scripting... then even perhaps some pros/cons to non scriptering?
- Depending on the complexity of the script there is the initial learning curve one has to deal with, but you also have to deal with the same thing with any new key arrangment anyway.
- Some scripts just aren't fool proof and have their own limitations that you have to keep in mind when using them. Maybe sometimes you have to give up something in order to use a script.
Pros for vanilla configs?
- Simple "out of the box" appeal
Cons for vanilla configs?
- The motions it takes to execute some actions with no aliases or special binds are not always the most effecient or is outside the comfort zone for a particular player
- Limited to only a mostly static key configuration. No way of having dynamic changes made to bindings or client settings on the fly, but is instead left to use an interface to change settings or if the player is savvy enough, change settings within a CFG file or console and limited to those actions alone.
alias +unreload "slot3; wait"
alias -unreload "lastinv"
<!--c2--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--ec2-->
This isn't blocked by mp_bs - your arguement just failed and your slip is showing.
alias +unreload "slot3; wait"
alias -unreload "lastinv"
<!--c2--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--ec2-->
This isn't blocked by mp_bs - your arguement just failed and your slip is showing. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is still a script, and one might argue that blocking only part of the alledged advantage giving scripts is better than blocking none of them. The arguement still holds.
<!--QuoteBegin-digz+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (digz)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Here is my thoughts on Pros to scripting:
1Less key smashing.
2Removes amount of keys needing to be pressed at once (ie, the sixth finger syndrome)
3Remove the disadvantage of taking your hands off the directional keys(arrows/wasd/etc) to change weapons.
4Minimizes the time between actions (ie removes human error in switching weapons)
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1) There are many ways to not script and reduce key smashing (I lerk and almost never have to "smash" keys)
2) Once again, proper key setups alleviate the need for mutations to get more fingers/hands/arms
3) You do not have to remove your hands from the directional keys. There is a reason Microsoft and Logitech make 5 button mice (and do not use the left handed argument: I AM left handed, I use a 4 button mouse with a single thumb button, and have never had a problem with switching weapons. I also do not use wasd, so the numbers aren't RIGHT THERE in front of my movement hand like you righties have).
4) There is more error in scripting weapon switching than doing so manually with direct weapon binds. "bind mouse4 slot 2" "bind mouse2 slot 1" "bind mouse5 slot 3" is more accurate, reliable, and faster than any script you can come up with.
In other words, none of the things you listed as advantages for scripting are really advantages to scripting. What you listed were problems inherent to any FPS game that affect the novice gamer. Once you learn how to control the game more, a better control setup is possible, and this fixes most, if not all, of the problems beyond basic end user skill.