<!--QuoteBegin-Metalcat+Jun 6 2005, 11:05 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Metalcat @ Jun 6 2005, 11:05 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> to all against my post: please, it was a joke?
but look in the bible, its tells them to do it? why shouldnt they? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You're not making sense. You're saying 'it's a joke, but the bible still says it's ok, so they should'
<!--QuoteBegin-Sandstorm+Jun 6 2005, 12:10 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sandstorm @ Jun 6 2005, 12:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'm sure every president has been influenced by their religion, but you aren't supposed to tell everyone. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, not <i>all</i> of them. Regan was rumored to take counsel from a fortune teller ... <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> to all against my post: please, it was a joke?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then don't make jokes on serious matters.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->IIRC, at the last census it was closer to a 57/43% split of females to males<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hmmmm, a few more wars and that female/male ratio is good enough to warrant moving to the US <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> *me ducks before wraith of significant other*
I don't care what they defile, they're the ones that are getting shot at for all of us. If it weren't for whiners like you "Soldiers did this, Soldiers did that. WHAAAAA! Soldiers stole my childhood" Maybe Officers and NCOs wouldn't be such freaking raving monkeys about soldiers/sailors/marines/airmen being picture perfect all the time for the cameras. Why can't a soldier putting his life on the line have a nice beard or maybe an AC/DC t-shirt underneath the kevlar? Rock t-shirts are freaking cool and they should be worn during a war.
<!--QuoteBegin-Bosnian Cowboy+Jun 6 2005, 10:49 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Bosnian Cowboy @ Jun 6 2005, 10:49 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Why can't a soldier putting his life on the line have a nice beard or maybe an AC/DC t-shirt underneath the kevlar? Rock t-shirts are freaking cool and they should be worn during a war. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I believe it has something to do with crushing a person's individuality. The military doesn't want individuals... they want a cohesive unit of soldiers they can command at will.
I'm muslim, living in america. I just read, on this anti-american news site, that Americans were destroying some holy land. I'm 100% sure what I read had no bias, therefor I'm going to make a post about it and act like I know what is going on. I'll say that I will embarrass anyone who tries to agrue against me to make myself seem like I know more than what I do. I have no connection to what goes on over there but now I'm angry becuase they destroyed the holy land of Derka Daka while getting shot by RPGs from my holy terrorist brethren.
<!--QuoteBegin-Bosnian Cowboy+Jun 7 2005, 05:49 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Bosnian Cowboy @ Jun 7 2005, 05:49 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I don't care what they defile, they're the ones that are getting shot at for all of us. If it weren't for whiners like you "Soldiers did this, Soldiers did that. WHAAAAA! Soldiers stole my childhood" Maybe Officers and NCOs wouldn't be such freaking raving monkeys about soldiers/sailors/marines/airmen being picture perfect all the time for the cameras. Why can't a soldier putting his life on the line have a nice beard or maybe an AC/DC t-shirt underneath the kevlar? Rock t-shirts are freaking cool and they should be worn during a war. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> That's not a good excuse. In fact, I still don't see the reason for them to be there, they're not "getting shot at for all of us," they're soldiers who are obeying orders. I guess we still have to argue whether the orders were justified. And no, I don't feel any safer at all since the war started, and it's not going to help it. If I'm going to die in the near future, it'll either be an accident or some unknown disease, not a terrorist imported from Iraq or any sort of bullcrap like that.
Also, having an AC/DC tshirt UNDER the kevlar would be a bit of a waste <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
He was joking. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Cookiebooger+May 31 2005, 08:06 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cookiebooger @ May 31 2005, 08:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Okay to every ones responses.
The Qu'ran is considered holy because it was brought down to Muhammad (peace be upon him) to share that knowledge with every other muslim in the world. The Qu'ran came from God's words. Angels wrote every word that God said into that book.
There are a lot of people who think that is an untrue fact that the Soldiers did this. And I assure you, they really did this. But who ever doesn't believe that, it's fine with me.
I just hate the fact that people are trying to cover it up. Stop trying to bull **** and just come out with the damn truth! If you want to ruin the whole world by telling that Muslims are bad and all that, why do it? You don't see the Muslim world telling the jews, hindus, christians, bhuddists, etc that they're all **** and stuff. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> And you know that this Koran was flushed down the toilet, how? Were you there in the room and saw it happen? Or are you just guessing?
The Koran came straight from God? Can you prove that to me? Why should I believe the Koran is the word of God? Because you say so? No thank you.
Be reasonable here: Do you think it's fair that people were KILLED over a story about a book being flushed down the toilet? Doesn't that strike you as messed up? I mean SERIOUSLY. Innocent people killed because a book that you consider holy is flushed down the toilet. What would your God think about that?
What about the other side of the coin here? I read an article in a paper that said Saudi Arabia doesn't even allow Bibles in their country, and they have killed people for having bibles. I think that they said the last time someone was killed for having a bible was in the 1990s. It's shocking that Muslims will go up in arms over a flush of a toilet while murdering people carrying other 'Holy' books.
No, I think that religion, spirituality, snake oil, homeopathy, and tons of other BS needs to be ended...
It's a shame that none of these powerful mystics and psychics have picked up their $1 million yet. <a href='http://randi.org/research/index.html' target='_blank'>http://randi.org/research/index.html</a>
It's too bad with all the technology and advances we've made in and up to the 21st century that people still feel the need to get fake relief from crap that doesn't work. As long as there are fools, there will be stuff like this to take advantage of them (don't fool yourself, that's what it is.)
PS. Here's a controversial view: Religion is child abuse. <a href='http://www.simonyi.ox.ac.uk/dawkins/WorldOfDawkins-archive/Dawkins/Work/Articles/2001-12-30morris_letter.shtml' target='_blank'>http://www.simonyi.ox.ac.uk/dawkins/WorldO...is_letter.shtml</a>
Wow that child abuse by religion is so true after skipping to a part that stuck out.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> That is a protestant baby. This is a Hindu baby. That is a Muslim baby. This baby thinks there are many gods. That baby is adamant that there is only one. But it is preposterous that we do this to children. They are too young to know what they think. To slap a label on a child at birth - to announce, in advance, as a matter of hereditary presumption if not determinate certainty, an infant's opinions on the cosmos and creation, on life and afterlives, on sexual ethics, abortion and euthanasia - is a form of mental child abuse. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
God that quote is so true. Force to go to religion class every wednesday from 3rd grade to 9th. Well not the entire year but a hefty part. Forced to go to church. Forced to become a Holy Roman Catholic. Being forced to do these things was such misery but once I got older and the brain went "WTH? Why should I believe this." I turned Atheist and that was a while ago. Now my brain is going Agnostic because playing the middle road has to be pretty safe.
Yeah it's very true... it's just too bad that most people don't see it <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-DuoGodOfDeath+Jun 7 2005, 07:20 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DuoGodOfDeath @ Jun 7 2005, 07:20 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Wow that child abuse by religion is so true after skipping to a part that stuck out.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> That is a protestant baby. This is a Hindu baby. That is a Muslim baby. This baby thinks there are many gods. That baby is adamant that there is only one. But it is preposterous that we do this to children. They are too young to know what they think. To slap a label on a child at birth - to announce, in advance, as a matter of hereditary presumption if not determinate certainty, an infant's opinions on the cosmos and creation, on life and afterlives, on sexual ethics, abortion and euthanasia - is a form of mental child abuse. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
God that quote is so true. Force to go to religion class every wednesday from 3rd grade to 9th. Well not the entire year but a hefty part. Forced to go to church. Forced to become a Holy Roman Catholic. Being forced to do these things was such misery but once I got older and the brain went "WTH? Why should I believe this." I turned Atheist and that was a while ago. Now my brain is going Agnostic because playing the middle road has to be pretty safe. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Thank you for making the case for me...
Your parents (while you don't believe it) are commanded by scripture to raise their kids in a "Godly" manner. By "forcing" you to go to Catholic school, and mass, and other Catholic events they were following what they believe to be true... and that is that they are to raise their children in a Godly way.
That is the right of every parent out there - and that includes sending their kid to a faith based school of their choice.
What that article did was try to give a reason to outlaw/disband/change faith based schools into "broad based faith" schools run (or at least heavily influenced) by a government non-faith organization. To win brownie points - they labeled indoctrination of children as "child abuse by religion".
Now Duo - while I respect your decison to leave the faith of your youth (it is your right to choose) I also even more so respect your parents decison to send you to Catholic school, and to raise you as a Catholic. You are under their care (at least to age 12 - probably longer) and while they are supporting you durring those years, they have the right to "force" you to go to Catholic events.
In other words - this whole article is stupid. The guy obviously doesn't like religion (apparenly of any variety) and tries to make the claim that these parents shouldn't be allowed to train their kids in a religious way. So who is the nanny that is supposed to step in... government. And you want to talk about indoctrination???
<!--QuoteBegin-Pepe Muffassa+Jun 8 2005, 07:24 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Pepe Muffassa @ Jun 8 2005, 07:24 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-DuoGodOfDeath+Jun 7 2005, 07:20 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DuoGodOfDeath @ Jun 7 2005, 07:20 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Wow that child abuse by religion is so true after skipping to a part that stuck out.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> That is a protestant baby. This is a Hindu baby. That is a Muslim baby. This baby thinks there are many gods. That baby is adamant that there is only one. But it is preposterous that we do this to children. They are too young to know what they think. To slap a label on a child at birth - to announce, in advance, as a matter of hereditary presumption if not determinate certainty, an infant's opinions on the cosmos and creation, on life and afterlives, on sexual ethics, abortion and euthanasia - is a form of mental child abuse. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
God that quote is so true. Force to go to religion class every wednesday from 3rd grade to 9th. Well not the entire year but a hefty part. Forced to go to church. Forced to become a Holy Roman Catholic. Being forced to do these things was such misery but once I got older and the brain went "WTH? Why should I believe this." I turned Atheist and that was a while ago. Now my brain is going Agnostic because playing the middle road has to be pretty safe. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Thank you for making the case for me...
Your parents (while you don't believe it) are commanded by scripture to raise their kids in a "Godly" manner. By "forcing" you to go to Catholic school, and mass, and other Catholic events they were following what they believe to be true... and that is that they are to raise their children in a Godly way.
That is the right of every parent out there - and that includes sending their kid to a faith based school of their choice.
What that article did was try to give a reason to outlaw/disband/change faith based schools into "broad based faith" schools run (or at least heavily influenced) by a government non-faith organization. To win brownie points - they labeled indoctrination of children as "child abuse by religion".
Now Duo - while I respect your decison to leave the faith of your youth (it is your right to choose) I also even more so respect your parents decison to send you to Catholic school, and to raise you as a Catholic. You are under their care (at least to age 12 - probably longer) and while they are supporting you durring those years, they have the right to "force" you to go to Catholic events.
In other words - this whole article is stupid. The guy obviously doesn't like religion (apparenly of any variety) and tries to make the claim that these parents shouldn't be allowed to train their kids in a religious way. So who is the nanny that is supposed to step in... government. And you want to talk about indoctrination??? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I guess that nobody would care if religion would be tought in a way that is not doctrinal in the very sense of the word. As soon as you start teaching children things like the world is flat and the center of the universe, (just an example, hope you understand where I am going to) that simply are not true, it starts to become a misleading education. This can be considered harmful, as it sometimes leads to desastrous abominations of what some people consider faith.
As you said, it is the parential right to chose their childrens faith, but this right can have harmful effect. What if the parents religion incooporates absolute denial of medical attention? Is that still righteous? To decide that your child at the age of 3 years must not be treated with modern methods, even if that means it will come to harm?
I don't know where to draw that line... and your right, it is a tricky one. On the other hand, I don't have the right to call flat earth people "abusive" in teaching their kids that. The hope is that the child will eventaully learn otherwise - but that does not give me the right to stop them teaching their child that the earth is flat.
I think that in order to impose your (or the governments) will on the parents in terms of what the parent can / can not teach, then you have to "prove" that harm is being done. For instance - where is the "harm" in teaching a flat earth? So the kid might never travel overseas... big deal.
Lets put it this way - if you want to preserve your right to believe in God - or god - or no-god, then you also have to preserve the rights of others to believe whatever whacky stuff they want to believe... even if it is to their (or their childrens) detriment. You can warn, you can mock, you can shout... but if you take control you are crossing a line of freedom... So even if they believe in "no modern medicine" - let them believe it. When the kid is 18 and leaves home - then he/she can believe what they want.
<!--QuoteBegin-Pepe Muffassa+Jun 8 2005, 10:25 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Pepe Muffassa @ Jun 8 2005, 10:25 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I don't know where to draw that line... and your right, it is a Lets put it this way - if you want to preserve your right to believe in God - or god - or no-god, then you also have to preserve the rights of others to believe whatever whacky stuff they want to believe... even if it is to their (or their childrens) detriment. You can warn, you can mock, you can shout... but if you take control you are crossing a line of freedom... So even if they believe in "no modern medicine" - let them believe it. When the kid is 18 and leaves home - then he/she can believe what they want. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Oh yes Pepe, lets make all children who are not 18 have to deal with what their parents deem "worthy".
In all honesty that is probably one of the most silly replies I have seen.
Children aquire a self-awareness at a different time then 18, usually before but not always. So instead of allowing that child to learn what it can, lets force them to do their parents bidding till such a time. That is stepping over the line right there.
What happens if a child is quite aware of what is going on when they are younger?(Say 14, or 12, what about 8?) Would that not constitute as stifiling their learning ability by forcing them to do something they know isn't true/right.
What right? Please, if you're going to say that someone has the "right" to do something, please be more specific. Do parents have the right to raise their children HOWEVER they want? Any religion? What about witchcraft? etc.
Please specify what you mean. I don't really believe that you really mean they can raise them <i>any way</i> they wan't because it's their "right". (Right given by whom ? Government, natural rights, god given?)
When individual soldiers do things like this the entire force suffers. Ask yourself this question; How many more bullets, rockets and IED's have been shot at our soldiers because of these incidents.
Im sure in vietnam there were cases of US soldiers shooting or beating up other soldiers who gave away their position because they lost their head.
These soldiers are getting fellow soldiers killed because they could'nt control their anger and should be dealt with very very harshly. To me it isnt all that different than the above situation. Bush should publicly **** on these people
We are supposedly "liberating" these people. IF we are to have any hope of getting out of iraq any time soon then we need the iraqi people to start believing in and cooperating with the US presense which they are more likely to do if they believe that america genuinely trying to help them.
Whats believing in and cooperatting entail? Iraqi's not sending death threats to other iraqis for "working with the enemy" Iraqi's letting US forces know about insurgent camps. Iraqi's believing that the only people on the IRAQI PEOPLES side is the US. That outside muslims factions are simply using iraq for their own political purposes. That iraqi people havea national identity and not just a regional one.
Its very important to show the iraqi's that we are better than this stuff and that people who do this kind of **** are outlaws. Just as its important to communicate to our soldiers that the soldiers who do this kind of thing are intentionally losing and prolonging the war and putting them all in greater danger.
Sorry but I don't think it is the *right* of the parent to choose their childrens religion. I totally and 100% disagree. Leave the kid free let him do whatever he wants. He should come back to Christianity anyway right? It is the one true religion and all.
I agree with that article, I'd say that forcing religion on a child is mental child abuse.
<!--QuoteBegin-Pepe Muffassa+Jun 8 2005, 11:25 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Pepe Muffassa @ Jun 8 2005, 11:25 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> So even if they believe in "no modern medicine" - let them believe it. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Pepe, your reply is just ridiculous. You are seriously saying that a parent letting a kid die is fine if they 'believe in it'? Wow... ugh. I normally don't have a problem with people believing what they want but when it starts to hurt themselves or their children, something needs to be done. Clearly, a parent letting a child suffer or even die because they don't "believe" in modern medicine is just sick...
What if a parent tells his kid to walk off a cliff because he believes that the kid will have eternal bliss or some nonsense? Would you support that? What if the parent believes in killing their kid at age 4 to save his soul?
X_StickmanNot good enough for a custom title.Join Date: 2003-04-15Member: 15533Members, Constellation
You know, Othell is right. The only way to not influence a child is to leave them in the middle of nowhere, with an equal chance of encountering everything it is possible to encounter. Which is impossible.
People raise their kids how they want. Whether it's their right or not, it doesn't matter. They think it is. What if you raise your child without inducting them into any religion, letting them "choose for themself", and then the "true" religion turns out to be one you must join upon birth? Child suffers pretty badly once they die, perhaps.
That might not be right. It might not be wrong. There's no answer.
<!--QuoteBegin-Nadagast+Jun 8 2005, 11:23 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nadagast @ Jun 8 2005, 11:23 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Pepe Muffassa+Jun 8 2005, 11:25 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Pepe Muffassa @ Jun 8 2005, 11:25 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> So even if they believe in "no modern medicine" - let them believe it. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Pepe, your reply is just ridiculous. You are seriously saying that a parent letting a kid die is fine if they 'believe in it'? Wow... ugh. I normally don't have a problem with people believing what they want but when it starts to hurt themselves or their children, something needs to be done. Clearly, a parent letting a child suffer or even die because they don't "believe" in modern medicine is just sick...
What if a parent tells his kid to walk off a cliff because he believes that the kid will have eternal bliss or some nonsense? Would you support that? What if the parent believes in killing their kid at age 4 to save his soul? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Take the drastically altered new topic to its <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=94384' target='_blank'>new thread</a>, please, where it should have been in the first place.
As Cagey as said, any further replies regarding the "Parent/Child Obedience/Religion" need to go in the specified thread. If people continue to post about the topics I have listed in this thread, it will have to be closed.
On that note:
<!--QuoteBegin-BukakkeSake+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BukakkeSake)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Back to the topic...
When individual soldiers do things like this the entire force suffers. Ask yourself this question; How many more bullets, rockets and IED's have been shot at our soldiers because of these incidents.
Im sure in vietnam there were cases of US soldiers shooting or beating up other soldiers who gave away their position because they lost their head.
These soldiers are getting fellow soldiers killed because they could'nt control their anger and should be dealt with very very harshly. To me it isnt all that different than the above situation. Bush should publicly **** on these people
We are supposedly "liberating" these people. IF we are to have any hope of getting out of iraq any time soon then we need the iraqi people to start believing in and cooperating with the US presense which they are more likely to do if they believe that america genuinely trying to help them.
Whats believing in and cooperatting entail? Iraqi's not sending death threats to other iraqis for "working with the enemy" Iraqi's letting US forces know about insurgent camps. Iraqi's believing that the only people on the IRAQI PEOPLES side is the US. That outside muslims factions are simply using iraq for their own political purposes. That iraqi people havea national identity and not just a regional one.
Its very important to show the iraqi's that we are better than this stuff and that people who do this kind of **** are outlaws. Just as its important to communicate to our soldiers that the soldiers who do this kind of thing are intentionally losing and prolonging the war and putting them all in greater danger. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-X Stickman+Jun 8 2005, 06:09 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (X Stickman @ Jun 8 2005, 06:09 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You know, Othell is right. The only way to not influence a child is to leave them in the middle of nowhere, with an equal chance of encountering everything it is possible to encounter. Which is impossible.
People raise their kids how they want. Whether it's their right or not, it doesn't matter. They think it is. What if you raise your child without inducting them into any religion, letting them "choose for themself", and then the "true" religion turns out to be one you must join upon birth? Child suffers pretty badly once they die, perhaps.
That might not be right. It might not be wrong. There's no answer. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> He clearly says there's nothing wrong with influencing your children (he uses cricket in one example I believe) but forcing a religion on a child is wrong. Read the article <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Comments
but look in the bible, its tells them to do it? why shouldnt they? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're not making sense. You're saying 'it's a joke, but the bible still says it's ok, so they should'
Well, not <i>all</i> of them. Regan was rumored to take counsel from a fortune teller ...
<!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> to all against my post: please, it was a joke?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then don't make jokes on serious matters.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->IIRC, at the last census it was closer to a 57/43% split of females to males<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hmmmm, a few more wars and that female/male ratio is good enough to warrant moving to the US <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
*me ducks before wraith of significant other*
I believe it has something to do with crushing a person's individuality. The military doesn't want individuals... they want a cohesive unit of soldiers they can command at will.
<!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif' /><!--endemo-->
That's not a good excuse. In fact, I still don't see the reason for them to be there, they're not "getting shot at for all of us," they're soldiers who are obeying orders. I guess we still have to argue whether the orders were justified.
And no, I don't feel any safer at all since the war started, and it's not going to help it. If I'm going to die in the near future, it'll either be an accident or some unknown disease, not a terrorist imported from Iraq or any sort of bullcrap like that.
Also, having an AC/DC tshirt UNDER the kevlar would be a bit of a waste <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
i sux at seeing when people is joking <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
The Qu'ran is considered holy because it was brought down to Muhammad (peace be upon him) to share that knowledge with every other muslim in the world. The Qu'ran came from God's words. Angels wrote every word that God said into that book.
There are a lot of people who think that is an untrue fact that the Soldiers did this. And I assure you, they really did this. But who ever doesn't believe that, it's fine with me.
I just hate the fact that people are trying to cover it up. Stop trying to bull **** and just come out with the damn truth! If you want to ruin the whole world by telling that Muslims are bad and all that, why do it? You don't see the Muslim world telling the jews, hindus, christians, bhuddists, etc that they're all **** and stuff. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
And you know that this Koran was flushed down the toilet, how? Were you there in the room and saw it happen? Or are you just guessing?
The Koran came straight from God? Can you prove that to me? Why should I believe the Koran is the word of God? Because you say so? No thank you.
Be reasonable here: Do you think it's fair that people were KILLED over a story about a book being flushed down the toilet? Doesn't that strike you as messed up? I mean SERIOUSLY. Innocent people killed because a book that you consider holy is flushed down the toilet. What would your God think about that?
What about the other side of the coin here? I read an article in a paper that said Saudi Arabia doesn't even allow Bibles in their country, and they have killed people for having bibles. I think that they said the last time someone was killed for having a bible was in the 1990s. It's shocking that Muslims will go up in arms over a flush of a toilet while murdering people carrying other 'Holy' books.
Religion needs to be ended.
Fixed.
It's a shame that none of these powerful mystics and psychics have picked up their $1 million yet.
<a href='http://randi.org/research/index.html' target='_blank'>http://randi.org/research/index.html</a>
It's too bad with all the technology and advances we've made in and up to the 21st century that people still feel the need to get fake relief from crap that doesn't work. As long as there are fools, there will be stuff like this to take advantage of them (don't fool yourself, that's what it is.)
PS. Here's a controversial view: Religion is child abuse.
<a href='http://www.simonyi.ox.ac.uk/dawkins/WorldOfDawkins-archive/Dawkins/Work/Articles/2001-12-30morris_letter.shtml' target='_blank'>http://www.simonyi.ox.ac.uk/dawkins/WorldO...is_letter.shtml</a>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
That is a protestant baby. This is a Hindu baby. That is a Muslim baby. This baby thinks there are many gods. That baby is adamant that there is only one. But it is preposterous that we do this to children. They are too young to know what they think. To slap a label on a child at birth - to announce, in advance, as a matter of hereditary presumption if not determinate certainty, an infant's opinions on the cosmos and creation, on life and afterlives, on sexual ethics, abortion and euthanasia - is a form of mental child abuse. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
God that quote is so true. Force to go to religion class every wednesday from 3rd grade to 9th. Well not the entire year but a hefty part. Forced to go to church. Forced to become a Holy Roman Catholic. Being forced to do these things was such misery but once I got older and the brain went "WTH? Why should I believe this." I turned Atheist and that was a while ago. Now my brain is going Agnostic because playing the middle road has to be pretty safe.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
That is a protestant baby. This is a Hindu baby. That is a Muslim baby. This baby thinks there are many gods. That baby is adamant that there is only one. But it is preposterous that we do this to children. They are too young to know what they think. To slap a label on a child at birth - to announce, in advance, as a matter of hereditary presumption if not determinate certainty, an infant's opinions on the cosmos and creation, on life and afterlives, on sexual ethics, abortion and euthanasia - is a form of mental child abuse. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
God that quote is so true. Force to go to religion class every wednesday from 3rd grade to 9th. Well not the entire year but a hefty part. Forced to go to church. Forced to become a Holy Roman Catholic. Being forced to do these things was such misery but once I got older and the brain went "WTH? Why should I believe this." I turned Atheist and that was a while ago. Now my brain is going Agnostic because playing the middle road has to be pretty safe. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thank you for making the case for me...
Your parents (while you don't believe it) are commanded by scripture to raise their kids in a "Godly" manner. By "forcing" you to go to Catholic school, and mass, and other Catholic events they were following what they believe to be true... and that is that they are to raise their children in a Godly way.
That is the right of every parent out there - and that includes sending their kid to a faith based school of their choice.
What that article did was try to give a reason to outlaw/disband/change faith based schools into "broad based faith" schools run (or at least heavily influenced) by a government non-faith organization. To win brownie points - they labeled indoctrination of children as "child abuse by religion".
Now Duo - while I respect your decison to leave the faith of your youth (it is your right to choose) I also even more so respect your parents decison to send you to Catholic school, and to raise you as a Catholic. You are under their care (at least to age 12 - probably longer) and while they are supporting you durring those years, they have the right to "force" you to go to Catholic events.
In other words - this whole article is stupid. The guy obviously doesn't like religion (apparenly of any variety) and tries to make the claim that these parents shouldn't be allowed to train their kids in a religious way. So who is the nanny that is supposed to step in... government. And you want to talk about indoctrination???
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
That is a protestant baby. This is a Hindu baby. That is a Muslim baby. This baby thinks there are many gods. That baby is adamant that there is only one. But it is preposterous that we do this to children. They are too young to know what they think. To slap a label on a child at birth - to announce, in advance, as a matter of hereditary presumption if not determinate certainty, an infant's opinions on the cosmos and creation, on life and afterlives, on sexual ethics, abortion and euthanasia - is a form of mental child abuse. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
God that quote is so true. Force to go to religion class every wednesday from 3rd grade to 9th. Well not the entire year but a hefty part. Forced to go to church. Forced to become a Holy Roman Catholic. Being forced to do these things was such misery but once I got older and the brain went "WTH? Why should I believe this." I turned Atheist and that was a while ago. Now my brain is going Agnostic because playing the middle road has to be pretty safe. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thank you for making the case for me...
Your parents (while you don't believe it) are commanded by scripture to raise their kids in a "Godly" manner. By "forcing" you to go to Catholic school, and mass, and other Catholic events they were following what they believe to be true... and that is that they are to raise their children in a Godly way.
That is the right of every parent out there - and that includes sending their kid to a faith based school of their choice.
What that article did was try to give a reason to outlaw/disband/change faith based schools into "broad based faith" schools run (or at least heavily influenced) by a government non-faith organization. To win brownie points - they labeled indoctrination of children as "child abuse by religion".
Now Duo - while I respect your decison to leave the faith of your youth (it is your right to choose) I also even more so respect your parents decison to send you to Catholic school, and to raise you as a Catholic. You are under their care (at least to age 12 - probably longer) and while they are supporting you durring those years, they have the right to "force" you to go to Catholic events.
In other words - this whole article is stupid. The guy obviously doesn't like religion (apparenly of any variety) and tries to make the claim that these parents shouldn't be allowed to train their kids in a religious way. So who is the nanny that is supposed to step in... government. And you want to talk about indoctrination??? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I guess that nobody would care if religion would be tought in a way that is not doctrinal in the very sense of the word.
As soon as you start teaching children things like the world is flat and the center of the universe, (just an example, hope you understand where I am going to) that simply are not true, it starts to become a misleading education. This can be considered harmful, as it sometimes leads to desastrous abominations of what some people consider faith.
As you said, it is the parential right to chose their childrens faith, but this right can have harmful effect. What if the parents religion incooporates absolute denial of medical attention? Is that still righteous? To decide that your child at the age of 3 years must not be treated with modern methods, even if that means it will come to harm?
Where is the line to draw?
I think that in order to impose your (or the governments) will on the parents in terms of what the parent can / can not teach, then you have to "prove" that harm is being done. For instance - where is the "harm" in teaching a flat earth? So the kid might never travel overseas... big deal.
Lets put it this way - if you want to preserve your right to believe in God - or god - or no-god, then you also have to preserve the rights of others to believe whatever whacky stuff they want to believe... even if it is to their (or their childrens) detriment. You can warn, you can mock, you can shout... but if you take control you are crossing a line of freedom... So even if they believe in "no modern medicine" - let them believe it. When the kid is 18 and leaves home - then he/she can believe what they want.
Oh yes Pepe, lets make all children who are not 18 have to deal with what their parents deem "worthy".
In all honesty that is probably one of the most silly replies I have seen.
Children aquire a self-awareness at a different time then 18, usually before but not always. So instead of allowing that child to learn what it can, lets force them to do their parents bidding till such a time. That is stepping over the line right there.
What happens if a child is quite aware of what is going on when they are younger?(Say 14, or 12, what about 8?) Would that not constitute as stifiling their learning ability by forcing them to do something they know isn't true/right.
Please specify what you mean. I don't really believe that you really mean they can raise them <i>any way</i> they wan't because it's their "right". (Right given by whom ? Government, natural rights, god given?)
When individual soldiers do things like this the entire force suffers. Ask yourself this question; How many more bullets, rockets and IED's have been shot at our soldiers because of these incidents.
Im sure in vietnam there were cases of US soldiers shooting or beating up other soldiers who gave away their position because they lost their head.
These soldiers are getting fellow soldiers killed because they could'nt control their anger and should be dealt with very very harshly. To me it isnt all that different than the above situation. Bush should publicly **** on these people
We are supposedly "liberating" these people. IF we are to have any hope of getting out of iraq any time soon then we need the iraqi people to start believing in and cooperating with the US presense which they are more likely to do if they believe that america genuinely trying to help them.
Whats believing in and cooperatting entail? Iraqi's not sending death threats to other iraqis for "working with the enemy" Iraqi's letting US forces know about insurgent camps. Iraqi's believing that the only people on the IRAQI PEOPLES side is the US. That outside muslims factions are simply using iraq for their own political purposes. That iraqi people havea national identity and not just a regional one.
Its very important to show the iraqi's that we are better than this stuff and that people who do this kind of **** are outlaws. Just as its important to communicate to our soldiers that the soldiers who do this kind of thing are intentionally losing and prolonging the war and putting them all in greater danger.
I agree with that article, I'd say that forcing religion on a child is mental child abuse.
Pepe, your reply is just ridiculous. You are seriously saying that a parent letting a kid die is fine if they 'believe in it'? Wow... ugh. I normally don't have a problem with people believing what they want but when it starts to hurt themselves or their children, something needs to be done. Clearly, a parent letting a child suffer or even die because they don't "believe" in modern medicine is just sick...
What if a parent tells his kid to walk off a cliff because he believes that the kid will have eternal bliss or some nonsense? Would you support that?
What if the parent believes in killing their kid at age 4 to save his soul?
People raise their kids how they want. Whether it's their right or not, it doesn't matter. They think it is. What if you raise your child without inducting them into any religion, letting them "choose for themself", and then the "true" religion turns out to be one you must join upon birth? Child suffers pretty badly once they die, perhaps.
That might not be right. It might not be wrong. There's no answer.
Pepe, your reply is just ridiculous. You are seriously saying that a parent letting a kid die is fine if they 'believe in it'? Wow... ugh. I normally don't have a problem with people believing what they want but when it starts to hurt themselves or their children, something needs to be done. Clearly, a parent letting a child suffer or even die because they don't "believe" in modern medicine is just sick...
What if a parent tells his kid to walk off a cliff because he believes that the kid will have eternal bliss or some nonsense? Would you support that?
What if the parent believes in killing their kid at age 4 to save his soul? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Take the drastically altered new topic to its <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=94384' target='_blank'>new thread</a>, please, where it should have been in the first place.
On that note:
<!--QuoteBegin-BukakkeSake+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BukakkeSake)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Back to the topic...
When individual soldiers do things like this the entire force suffers. Ask yourself this question; How many more bullets, rockets and IED's have been shot at our soldiers because of these incidents.
Im sure in vietnam there were cases of US soldiers shooting or beating up other soldiers who gave away their position because they lost their head.
These soldiers are getting fellow soldiers killed because they could'nt control their anger and should be dealt with very very harshly. To me it isnt all that different than the above situation. Bush should publicly **** on these people
We are supposedly "liberating" these people. IF we are to have any hope of getting out of iraq any time soon then we need the iraqi people to start believing in and cooperating with the US presense which they are more likely to do if they believe that america genuinely trying to help them.
Whats believing in and cooperatting entail? Iraqi's not sending death threats to other iraqis for "working with the enemy" Iraqi's letting US forces know about insurgent camps. Iraqi's believing that the only people on the IRAQI PEOPLES side is the US. That outside muslims factions are simply using iraq for their own political purposes. That iraqi people havea national identity and not just a regional one.
Its very important to show the iraqi's that we are better than this stuff and that people who do this kind of **** are outlaws. Just as its important to communicate to our soldiers that the soldiers who do this kind of thing are intentionally losing and prolonging the war and putting them all in greater danger. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
People raise their kids how they want. Whether it's their right or not, it doesn't matter. They think it is. What if you raise your child without inducting them into any religion, letting them "choose for themself", and then the "true" religion turns out to be one you must join upon birth? Child suffers pretty badly once they die, perhaps.
That might not be right. It might not be wrong. There's no answer. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He clearly says there's nothing wrong with influencing your children (he uses cricket in one example I believe) but forcing a religion on a child is wrong. Read the article <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
edit: k no more posts on this mods, sorry ^_^