3.0.4 Released

Garet_Jax · June 2005

<div class="IPBDescription">Woosj</div> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zunni)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Natural Selection version 3.0.4 is being released to a few mirror sites, as we get notification of it coming online we will be posting mirror links below.

As with 3.0.3 and the other previous patches, this is a patch that is relevant only to server admins. If you are an NS Player and don't run a server, you don't need to update.

The 3.0.4 changelog is as follows:

* Increased alien upgrade gestation time from two to three seconds.
* Doubled the marine's Light MachineGun starting reserve ammo to 100. (Classic Only)
* Doubled the marine's Pistol starting reserve ammo to 20. (Classic Only)
* Reduced time to research the advanced armory from 180 to 160 seconds.
* Increased HeavyArmor research time from 100 to 110 seconds.
* Increased Jetpack research time from 50 to 60 seconds.
* Increased siege damage from 380 to 400.
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Now I never have to use the armoury, and can take an extra second to make sure I'm actually aiming at the egg!

Lump · June 2005

:|

kalimxs · June 2005

what damage did seiges start at again?

daidalos · June 2005

330
More ammo clips at start, wohoo!!! That is a very nice change <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' />
gj dev team <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' />

Invader_Scoot · June 2005

Eh, this might have pushed helping marines a tid bit too far... <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' />

monk3y · June 2005

hmm good changes.. nothing too drastic.. except.. whats with the increased reserach time? for the Armor and Jetpacks?

I don't see any major boosts for the marines.. but well its fine i guess.

Nemesis_Zero · June 2005

(Frontpage updated with mirror information.)

The two increased research times are a bit of a counter-weight to the faster AA research. We wanted to get the marines somewhat earlier mid-tier tech, not complete faster tech access.

urinalcake · June 2005

Yes, hopefully this helps the marines, so at least we can see some balance.
I can see what the dev's are thinking. The bulk of combat can sometimes happen after the proto is up, and JPs/HMGs are given, Devs are trying to make more time in classic before the jp/hmg upgrades are done.

Bottom line. More before JP/HMG combat, makes more sense. Notice there was no Arms Lab upgrades, this balances it out for marines by giving pre-JP/HMG combat the normal upgrades. This is good. We'll probably see longer games, with more intense action.

As of now, there are 18 servers with 3.04. Brys, all of Surftown and Gamingorb.
I'm hoping we'll see a total upgrade to 3.04, but then again, there are tons of servers still running 3.01

Nemesis_Zero · June 2005

Erm... u-c, we reduced advanced armory research by 20 secs. AA is a requirement for protolabs. In so far, we sped the road to prototech up by ten seconds each, but made AA weapon access (specifically, to HMGs) a little faster even than that.

urinalcake · June 2005

I pretty much confused myself writing that.

What I'm saying is that by extending the time it takes to up HMG and JPs, we'll see more combat time before they are upgraded. I think it balances it out, because thats usually waht decides the tide of the game.

Nemesis_Zero · June 2005

We did not extend the time to upgrade to HMG, we reduced it. Same with JP, only by a smaller margin <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' />

whenyougofowards · June 2005

Why is the focus set on making unnessescary updates? There are alot more bigger problems with this version than -how much ammo the marines spawn with. Good job with the sieges and upgrade times or what have you. These are all minor aesthetic changes that really make no difference. For instance, changing LMG sounds or JETPACK sounds. -who cares? What I've noticed is with the new versions there is alot more emphisis on teamplay. This has its pro's and cons. This is also the reason why tons of 'veterans' whine about how the game is so bugged and unbalanced. You cant litteraly 'solo' a team anymore, or, rambo or what not; it's just pointless. I'm jumping from point to point here but what im trying to get at is that the devs aren't dealing with important factors in the game right now. I don't even think this update will change anything. I can't even propose a proper fix, n'or do I feel like I'm being redundant in saying so; why? Because everytime someone attempts to facilitate some sort of fix for the game that could potentially BALANCE the game it's always swept under the carpet because it is not in the main interest of Tom **** and Harry ie- public players. It's almost as if NS isn't even so much skill based anymore; It does not matter how good you are in terms of your aim, exp, what have you; the game itself as it is is a strain on the players abilities. WHY? because its far too newbie friendly. If this adapt or die, then why is it built around people who barely play the game? I have veered off once again into another discussion, i apologize. IF IT AINT BROKE, DONT flipping FIX IT.

Swiftspear · June 2005

Only thing I don't like is the siege. After 3.03 I'd be complaining about an overpowered seige... not an underpowered one. If we're trying to make siege viable compeditively we might as well give up. Siege = lockdown because of how long it takes. Compeditive players like to take out both hives in < 1 minute.

TOmekki · June 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Swiftspear @ Jun 1 2005, 04:12 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Only thing I don't like is the siege. After 3.03 I'd be complaining about an overpowered seige... not an underpowered one. If we're trying to make siege viable compeditively we might as well give up. Siege = lockdown because of how long it takes. Compeditive players like to take out both hives in < 1 minute.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
sometimes siege is the only thing you can do.

Buggy · June 2005

We're getting there now, NS should be perfectly balanced by 3.0.6 at this rate. \o/

2_of_Eight · June 2005

I really like these changes! No more time wasted getting that little bit of ammo (which is, by the way, completely necessary). Good job NS devs <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /> I think this'll bring the game closer to balance.

Swiftspear · June 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TOmekki @ Jun 1 2005, 04:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Swiftspear @ Jun 1 2005, 04:12 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Only thing I don't like is the siege. After 3.03 I'd be complaining about an overpowered seige... not an underpowered one. If we're trying to make siege viable compeditively we might as well give up. Siege = lockdown because of how long it takes. Compeditive players like to take out both hives in < 1 minute. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
sometimes siege is the only thing you can do.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
Ya, and in those cases the existing seige was already powerful enough. 3 gorges can't outheal 3 of the current seiges. It's back at the point where once the seiges are up, the aliens only have a few seconds before they are past the point of no return... seiges didn't need a further boost.

im_lost · June 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (whenyougofowards @ Jun 1 2005, 02:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Why is the focus set on making unnessescary updates? There are alot more bigger problems with this version than -how much ammo the marines spawn with. Good job with the sieges and upgrade times or what have you. These are all minor aesthetic changes that really make no difference. For instance, changing LMG sounds or JETPACK sounds. -who cares? What I've noticed is with the new versions there is alot more emphisis on teamplay. This has its pro's and cons. This is also the reason why tons of 'veterans' whine about how the game is so bugged and unbalanced. You cant litteraly 'solo' a team anymore, or, rambo or what not; it's just pointless. I'm jumping from point to point here but what im trying to get at is that the devs aren't dealing with important factors in the game right now. I don't even think this update will change anything. I can't even propose a proper fix, n'or do I feel like I'm being redundant in saying so; why? Because everytime someone attempts to facilitate some sort of fix for the game that could potentially BALANCE the game it's always swept under the carpet because it is not in the main interest of Tom **** and Harry ie- public players. It's almost as if NS isn't even so much skill based anymore; It does not matter how good you are in terms of your aim, exp, what have you; the game itself as it is is a strain on the players abilities. WHY? because its far too newbie friendly. If this adapt or die, then why is it built around people who barely play the game? I have veered off once again into another discussion, i apologize. IF IT AINT BROKE, DONT flipping FIX IT.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
Summary: A single player should be able to win the game for a team, and it's bad to make the game rely on teamwork.

Everyone is going to disagree with you on that.

The ammo change seems like a good idea, I don't know why it was in combat for so long but not in classic.

Swiftspear · June 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (im lost @ Jun 1 2005, 04:34 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (whenyougofowards @ Jun 1 2005, 02:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Why is the focus set on making unnessescary updates? There are alot more bigger problems with this version than -how much ammo the marines spawn with. Good job with the sieges and upgrade times or what have you. These are all minor aesthetic changes that really make no difference. For instance, changing LMG sounds or JETPACK sounds. -who cares? What I've noticed is with the new versions there is alot more emphisis on teamplay. This has its pro's and cons. This is also the reason why tons of 'veterans' whine about how the game is so bugged and unbalanced. You cant litteraly 'solo' a team anymore, or, rambo or what not; it's just pointless. I'm jumping from point to point here but what im trying to get at is that the devs aren't dealing with important factors in the game right now. I don't even think this update will change anything. I can't even propose a proper fix, n'or do I feel like I'm being redundant in saying so; why? Because everytime someone attempts to facilitate some sort of fix for the game that could potentially BALANCE the game it's always swept under the carpet because it is not in the main interest of Tom **** and Harry ie- public players. It's almost as if NS isn't even so much skill based anymore; It does not matter how good you are in terms of your aim, exp, what have you; the game itself as it is is a strain on the players abilities. WHY? because its far too newbie friendly. If this adapt or die, then why is it built around people who barely play the game? I have veered off once again into another discussion, i apologize. IF IT AINT BROKE, DONT flipping FIX IT. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Summary: A single player should be able to win the game for a team, and it's bad to make the game rely on teamwork.

Everyone is going to disagree with you on that.

The ammo change seems like a good idea, I don't know why it was in combat for so long but not in classic.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
No, I think the issue is some prefer a 100:0 pub winloss compared to a 50:50 pub win loss if it means a compeditive win loss of 50:50 compared to 45:55. Really I think someone's just mad that marine bhopping has been removed and they can't figure out glide jumping or fastwalk.

Rapier7 · June 2005

Swiftspear, the 380->400 doesn't change a thing except to discourage gorges from healing.

Siege bases are already a headache trying to set up (against a competent alien team), it's about time that the aliens are forced to be as decisive as the marines have to be.

whenyougofowards · June 2005

No, my point was <i>not</i> that marines should be able to take on entire teams solo. I guess you're forgetting to include that i mentioned PROS vs CONS. It has it's up's and downs. Yes, Natural Selection is ment to be a 'team-play' based game. And with the recent versions, the emphasis has been on team play. That's great, but the way in which the devs went about working that in a sence crippled the overall 'skill' factor. However, all this was besides the point i was inittialy trying to make in that the last few updates haven't been fixing the problems that need tending. Aesthetics should be dealt with AFTER the game is balanced/fun to play for all parties. Maybe you'd rather me bold the bits I'm trying to point out here, but I'm not trying to argue that this game sucks beacuse I can't rambo anymore. This game sucks because Joe blow can download the game and figure out quite quickly that 1 sensory chamber placed in the right spot can give you focus/sof/cloaking -is that not a problem? Or how about how the shotgun bug? Who would like when you go through your 8 shells that you can reload one and shoot it without it bugging out and playing the reload animation over and over. These are the kind of things that SHOULD be getting changed. Not little useless aesthetics that add to atmosphere or whatever you wanna call it. The issue is prioritization. The devs are not taking care of what needs to be tended to. Instead they are releasing updates that are making useless changes to things that worked fine in the first place so that when people like myself say something they can easily say ' We're making slow/steady progress trying to address all problems. we're looking foward to fixing these issues in future builds. please do not flame the forums' -Something to that effect.

Defenser · June 2005

What was the need to change siege cannons? They were already powerful enough. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' />

Nemesis_Zero · June 2005

wygf, as a general stylistic remark, I'd suggest you use paragraphs more often, both to make your posts easier to read and to add some structure to it.

You make several points, therefore, several short answers:

Yes, there are things that go unfixed in this and the previous versions. There always will be such issues, with any kind of project. It is the privilege of those creating a game to chose the problem to approach first, within the framework of their chosen form. If we release a numbers-only server-side patch, you won't see code changes. Why do we fix 'minor' issues when major ones are still around? Because a) the coders got bored butting their heads against a particular problem and decided to do something easy for a change, b) we have no good leads on the major problem, or c) the effort involved in the solution of the major problem is currently in no relation to the gains involved.

We have several different people on the dev team, not all of which are coders - which is why you see sound changes, for example: MadMaXX can't code worth cow dung (nor could I), but he's a wizard with sound effects. Thus, he updates sounds. Not that hard to accept, I'd think. Best of all, no code changes are neglected by this.

Yes, we're trying to emphasize teamplay while keeping the whole thing accessible. There's little I can say here but "If you don't like it, too bad.". This game was originally designed as a RTS with a FPS frontend. I won't apologize for doing what was tried to achieve.
If we manage to make this whole thing user friendly along the way, I don't really see the downside. No game can survive if no new people come in to try it.

If you invest a lot of time into NS, more power to you. If someone plays NS once every forthnight, more power to him. I said it before, I'll say it again - we won't take a stance for or again a certain playing style, but for what we believe NS should be. 'Adapt or die' does not only apply to the players, but also to the game.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>What was the need to change siege cannons? They were already powerful enough. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
In short, the objective here is to force aliens away from defensive strategies and into assaults in case of siege scenarios. It's a second tweak, true, but hey, all said and done, I think we have established good enough a track record at these iterative patches to claim that if it's going overboard, it won't for long <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' />

Emanon · June 2005

Good stuff, players needed a quick fix to equal out the teams and the dev team is providing. It may not be perfect but they are showing everyone they are trying.

Dont mind the banters of few, some just want everything yesterday.

Just enjoy the ride.

DrFurious · June 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Swiftspear @ Jun 1 2005, 04:12 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> If we're trying to make siege viable compeditively we might as well give up. Siege = lockdown because of how long it takes. Compeditive players like to take out both hives in < 1 minute.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
Sieges are one of the few things that actually are viable in competetive play.

Please know what you are talking about before you do so.

urinalcake · June 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nemesis Zero @ Jun 1 2005, 03:49 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> We did not extend the time to upgrade to HMG, we reduced it. Same with JP, only by a smaller margin <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' />  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
I meant HA, not HMG.
And on the Changelog, it says HA and JP research time extended..

Nemesis_Zero · June 2005

Everyone, play nice. "The competitive play" is a myth. Watch a pacific clan scrim and compare it to a european scrim to see what I mean.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nemesis Zero @ Jun 1 2005, 03:49 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> We did not extend the time to upgrade to HMG, we reduced it. Same with JP, only by a smaller margin <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
I meant HA, not HMG.
And on the Changelog, it says HA and JP research time extended..</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Yeah, this one is a bit confusing, I'll admit. Best take a look at <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns/comm_manual/basic/marineTechTreeClassic.htm' target='_blank'>the tech tree</a> (not updated yet). You'll note that the advanced armory has to be researched before prototech can occur. Thus, you'll have to add the AA research time to the total time it takes until HA and JP can occur in game.
What we did now was reduce AA research time by 20 seconds. This means that JPs and HAs could occur those 20 secs earlier, as well. To balance that out a bit, we delayed them by 10 seconds each. 20 - 10 = 10 seconds less time until either piece of equipment can be dropped in the best case scenario.
Makes sense?

whenyougofowards · June 2005

I apologize for my sloppy sentance structuring and grammar/punctuation. I'm not trying to discredit the devs for doing thier job. It's a luxory to have a soundman in the crew. However, when the pressing issues aren't with background noises, or how the fade sounds slapping against metal; why then are you using Madmax as a defense?

Look, all I'm trying to get at is the devs should be more concerned about making the game first of all-<i> fun</i> & <i>balanced.</i>
<i>Then</i> worry about fixing the game up nice and pretty like. : ) Just simple prioritization, that's it.

I'm not trying to question the overall mission or focus for Natural Selection as a whole or what have you. I don't have the right to do so either. (I'd just like to make that clear) I'm just stating my opinon about the newest release. Take it which ever which way you want. Obviously people like 'I'm lost' and 'Swiftspear' can't understand the points I've made.

cryforme · June 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nemesis Zero @ Jun 1 2005, 04:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>What was the need to change siege cannons? They were already powerful enough. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
In short, the objective here is to force aliens away from defensive strategies and into assaults in case of siege scenarios. It's a second tweak, true, but hey, all said and done, I think we have established good enough a track record at these iterative patches to claim that if it's going overboard, it won't for long <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' />  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
You know, i could be wrong, but when the game starts and you're on aliens, i'm pretty sure it says very clearly "You are <b>defending</b>".
So wouldnt it make sense for aliens to actually use a defensive strategy in a siege situation? Seems to me that an offensive strategy (because from a realistic standpoint, taking down the siege attempt while killing incoming marines IS defensive as far as the hive is concerned) would be moot, since by the time an alien team managed to get to marine start to make an offensive play, the hive would be dead.

Also, from the quote, it sounds like you're trying to take the defensive capabilities out of alien hands. Swiftspear already pointed out that three gorges with adrenaline cant keep up with a decent siege. So why make them stronger still? This only gives aliens more likelihood of losing the game because they have absolutely no way to recover a hive once a siege has been set up. The way it was in 3.03, if an alien team got caught by a ninja siege, they could still potentially mount a defense while a couple gorges did their best to keep the hive up. With increased damage on the sieges (and 20 damage multiplied across a spread of 3 sieges is a world of difference), the gorges are obsolete and the hive is essentially lost before the aliens can have a chance to retaliate.

Emanon · June 2005

cryforme stop playing combat

Nemesis_Zero · June 2005

The background sound issues are code - (or more precisely, setup -) related and thus out of MaXX' reign. I have never heard a complaint about the Fade's 'idle attack' sounds before, maybe you should go into more details there.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Look, all I'm trying to get at is the devs should be more concerned about making the game first of all- fun & balanced.
Then worry about fixing the game up nice and pretty like. : ) Just simple prioritization, that's it.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
You make it sound so easy.

First, making a game fun and balanced are to a certain extent mutually exclusive. Balance requires stable gameplay that can be honed to perfection, while many of the things considered 'fun' involve surprise, and thus require changes to the gameplay. All one can ever hope for is to strike a meta-balance and roll with it.
Second, "fixing stuff up" is often connected to the first two. Almost every 'little bug' we fix makes someone's game a frustrating toil. I never experienced the background sound issues you apparently have myself. To you, it's a major thing. To others, it's just the next detail change. There's a reason Blizzard is so successful, and it's called 'polish' - fixing stuff up.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Obviously people like 'I'm lost' and 'Swiftspear' can't understand the points I've made.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
You're relatively new here, so I'll leave it by an unlogged warning when I ask you not to make personal attacks on other members.

---

cry, as emanon already pointed out, that "you are defending" message is from combat. By 'assault', I referred to just what you mean - attacks on the marine outpost, as opposed to attrition stances within the hive.

3.0.4 Released

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