The thing I like about these updates is that they're all buffs, and can be worked into the storyline: Aliens getting rocked by Marines in the 2.0 era, so they adapt to upgrade without using resources, etc, then those adaptations give them the ability to beat the fronteersmen at about a 75% ratio (don't know the numbers, so sue me), so the marines send their troops with more stuff, etc. Works for me.
<!--QuoteBegin-Reeke+Jun 2 2005, 06:40 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Reeke @ Jun 2 2005, 06:40 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->but lets be honest, an extra 10 seconds here, 10 seconds off there, really isnt going to have impact in pub play. the marines starting with extra ammo is the only thing i can see having an impact<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree with your assessment in general, the time tweeks are likely to have a greater impact on competitive play (and for the naysayers regarding 2 seconds -> 3 seconds, the point is with higher times you now have to more carefully weigh whether getting Celerity after you spawn, but before you MC into the hive currently under siege is worth it, a whole team of respawning skulks making a poor choice in this regard could easy be the difference in losing a hive and saving it).
However I would argue the time tweeks will impact public play (even if the direct effect is more minor), and that the changes to siege damage is actually the most potent direct change in this version. My (very cynical) gut feeling says the extra starting ammo will overall be a more of an indirect buff, as freshly-spawned Marine will spend less time at the armory, giving them a higher chance of phasing in time to save an outpost.
puzlThe Old FirmJoin Date: 2003-02-26Member: 14029Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
edited June 2005
[quote="Crispy"] Someone mentioned earlier the example of chess as a balanced game. NS is completely different. ]/quote]
A very good post Crispy, but I would like to add to your list of differences.
NS is about balancing imbalance. The basic characteristics of each team are fundamentally different - Aliens have advantage at short range, marines at long range. Marines have a single point of coordination, aliens have distributed coordination ( with the help of the hivemind ). Marines have a flexible technology path, aliens have to make and commit to early decisions. Aliens are fast, marines are slow. Aliens have a distributed resource pool, marines have a single resource pool.
The list goes on, and there are exceptions to almost every difference listed above, but I just wanted to point out that the balance problems in NS are there by design, and the difficult task is about stacking up the strenghts and weaknesses in such a way that overall balane is achieved.
TFC is balanced because each team is identical. NS will never achieve this level of 'perfect' balance, though I do believe it <b>can</b> come close to achieving it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->NS is about balancing imbalance. The basic characteristics of each team are fundamentally different - Aliens have advantage at short range, marines at long range. Marines have a single point of coordination, aliens have distributed coordination ( with the help of the hivemind ). Marines have a flexible technology path, aliens have to make and commit to early decisions. Aliens are fast, marines are slow. Aliens have a distributed resource pool, marines have a single resource pool. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Kinda OT, but I think NS2 needs to revise this whole concept. Specialize in long range vs. short range - okay. One side fast to counter range, other slow - okay. Need for comm on one side, other side "distributed" - NOT okay, since the skills required for comming doesn't transfer well to the alien equivalent, the gorge.
I think its possible that in practice proto tech will actually be delayed by the increase in proto research time. There is usually a gap between when the armory finishes and the proto lab is dropped. This is because 40 res is a great deal to stockpile to drop the proto, and then scrounging up 35 or 40 res to get the upgrade takes a while when comms are used to living click to click.
If you are rushing proto tech its a different story because you purposefully arrange for everything to flow quickly and smoothly in the upgrade tree.
But in the course of a normal non-rush upgrade path, there could be 30 seconds or a minute or 3 minutes after the armory is finished, before the proto starts researching. If that much time goes by, then this patch hurts marine proto tech instead of helping it by 10 seconds.
Also, DrFurious is a smart smart guy. He pointed out that its not the 20 point increase in seige damage thats a big deal, or the percent increase that it could be considered. What should actually be considered is how many times seiges have to fire before something is destroyed.
How many times do seiges have to fire to down the hive? How many times do they have to hit chambers? How many times do they have to fire to kill the hive if there is an adrenaline gorge?
Its why when you consider marine armor, you focus (lol) on how many bites/swipes/focus bites/swipes it takes to kill a marine.
DrFurious is the only person that pointed out that this is a huge boost to seige power because seiges target chambers first, and now they kill chambers on the first volley. When that happens, the gorges lose their adrenaline and the hive dies in however many less siege vollies. It takes a good commander to so quickly see through the dynamics and numbers like that.
<!--QuoteBegin-Router Box+Jun 2 2005, 01:40 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Router Box @ Jun 2 2005, 01:40 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I think its possible that in practice proto tech will actually be delayed by the increase in proto research time. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> This is a very good point, and the proto-'nerfs' were the certainly most violently debated aspects of this patch. In the end, however, it was agreed that this relatively minor counterweight should be sufficient to hinder tech rushes while not inhibiting the rest of the game too far. If it isn't, nobody ever said we can't reverse changes if the need arises. Let's wait and see.
<!--QuoteBegin-Router Box+Jun 2 2005, 08:46 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Router Box @ Jun 2 2005, 08:46 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Also, DrFurious is a smart smart guy. He pointed out that its not the 20 point increase in seige damage thats a big deal, or the percent increase that it could be considered. What should actually be considered is how many times seiges have to fire before something is destroyed.
How many times do seiges have to fire to down the hive? How many times do they have to hit chambers? How many times do they have to fire to kill the hive if there is an adrenaline gorge?
Its why when you consider marine armor, you focus (lol) on how many bites/swipes/focus bites/swipes it takes to kill a marine.
DrFurious is the only person that pointed out that this is a huge boost to seige power because seiges target chambers first, and now they kill chambers on the first volley. When that happens, the gorges lose their adrenaline and the hive dies in however many less siege vollies. It takes a good commander to so quickly see through the dynamics and numbers like that. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> It's about time someone recognized my genius.
<!--QuoteBegin-Lt Patch+Jun 1 2005, 05:39 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Lt Patch @ Jun 1 2005, 05:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Take a nice, perfectly balanced game, like Chess. I've actually said this a couple of times before, but, when was the last time you had fun playing Chess? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Chess kicks friggin ****. It is the ultimate game of strategy. NS would be much better if it were more like chess..okay maybe not, but chess is still one of the greatest games in existence.
How are you going to argue that chess is boring (not fun = boring)? That is rediculous. There are an infinite number of possible games, its a metaphorical fight to the death... The only thing that might make chess more exciting would be some randomwhich would be stupid. Game of skill = competition = fun. Plus chess in entirely mental, and when was the last time you tested your mental abilities against another human?
People who say chess is boring or stupid are usually just tired of losing and dont want to take the time to learn the game. Do not bash chess again.
<!--QuoteBegin-milosis+Jun 2 2005, 12:33 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (milosis @ Jun 2 2005, 12:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> i vote that we rename this version to 3.okwelieditsstillbeta6 <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I'm thinking about the compiled changelogs between 3b6 and now...and I don't get your point.
Oh, and REAL, take this comment: <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Game of skill = competition = fun.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> and apply it to NS. There are plenty of people here who would argue that ns clanplay (competitive play) isn't fun. So...yeah, your justification for why chess is such a great game really doesn't hold water in this community.
<!--QuoteBegin-Real PUA+Jun 2 2005, 12:08 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Real PUA @ Jun 2 2005, 12:08 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Lt Patch+Jun 1 2005, 05:39 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Lt Patch @ Jun 1 2005, 05:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Take a nice, perfectly balanced game, like Chess. I've actually said this a couple of times before, but, when was the last time you had fun playing Chess? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Chess kicks friggin ****. It is the ultimate game of strategy. NS would be much better if it were more like chess..okay maybe not, but chess is still one of the greatest games in existence.
How are you going to argue that chess is boring (not fun = boring)? That is rediculous. There are an infinite number of possible games, its a metaphorical fight to the death... The only thing that might make chess more exciting would be some randomwhich would be stupid. Game of skill = competition = fun. Plus chess in entirely mental, and when was the last time you tested your mental abilities against another human?
People who say chess is boring or stupid are usually just tired of losing and dont want to take the time to learn the game. Do not bash chess again. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> QFT
<!--QuoteBegin-Sky+Jun 2 2005, 12:45 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sky @ Jun 2 2005, 12:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-milosis+Jun 2 2005, 12:33 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (milosis @ Jun 2 2005, 12:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> i vote that we rename this version to 3.okwelieditsstillbeta6 <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I'm thinking about the compiled changelogs between 3b6 and now...and I don't get your point.
Oh, and REAL, take this comment: <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Game of skill = competition = fun.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> and apply it to NS. There are plenty of people here who would argue that ns clanplay (competitive play) isn't fun. So...yeah, your justification for why chess is such a great game really doesn't hold water in this community. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> And there's plenty of people who will argue that competitive play is very fun.
<span style='color:white'>"'... And you're all black', said the raven to the crow."</span>
<!--QuoteBegin-Router Box+Jun 2 2005, 06:46 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Router Box @ Jun 2 2005, 06:46 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Also, DrFurious is a smart smart guy. He pointed out that its not the 20 point increase in seige damage thats a big deal, or the percent increase that it could be considered. What should actually be considered is how many times seiges have to fire before something is destroyed.
How many times do seiges have to fire to down the hive? How many times do they have to hit chambers? How many times do they have to fire to kill the hive if there is an adrenaline gorge?
Its why when you consider marine armor, you focus (lol) on how many bites/swipes/focus bites/swipes it takes to kill a marine.
DrFurious is the only person that pointed out that this is a huge boost to seige power because seiges target chambers first, and now they kill chambers on the first volley. When that happens, the gorges lose their adrenaline and the hive dies in however many less siege vollies. It takes a good commander to so quickly see through the dynamics and numbers like that. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You can position the chambers so that the hive will be hit before the chambers, in many cases. If you do that, then the chambers won't die until the hive has already gone down, and the adrenaline gorges will be around to heal the hive. Chambers shouldn't be positioned randomly in the hive.
Of course, the hive will die faster now, and that was the point of the change. However, if the hive dies too fast, based on actual in-game observations, then the change can be reversed.
<!--QuoteBegin-Toothy+Jun 2 2005, 04:55 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Toothy @ Jun 2 2005, 04:55 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Nice to see the .txt crew of combat pubstars once again giving witty comments on a patch they've never played that affects a gamemode which they most likely don't even understand. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> r u combt or classic? Classic CS mod right? I came from CS!
<!--QuoteBegin-Reeke+Jun 2 2005, 06:40 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Reeke @ Jun 2 2005, 06:40 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> but lets be honest, an extra 10 seconds here, 10 seconds off there, really isnt going to have impact in pub play. the marines starting with extra ammo is the only thing i can see having an impact <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You contradict yourself here. Consider how many seconds the difference marines starting with extra ammo makes. It takes, what, 2 seconds tops to get the extra two clips from the armory that this patch provides. That means you're comparing 2 seconds to 10 seconds and saying the 2 seconds will have more impact.
In reality, if you actually try to pay attention during a game of NS, you'll realize that every single second counts, especially when you're playing against good opponents. Games of NS last 10-15 minutes, in general. Anything over that is just cleanup time. The reason pub games take so much longer is simply incompetance (I say this only as a statement of fact, not with any attitude). 20 seconds off the AA research time will impact pub play immediately, I predict. And the siege damage increase will impact it a lot.
<!--QuoteBegin-Fatal Error+Jun 2 2005, 04:24 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Fatal Error @ Jun 2 2005, 04:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> On the 3.04 server I have played on, (Bry's,) the marines had HMGs and HA before the first fade came around. *shiver* <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> ...
Maybe my maths is off here, but chambers have 1000 hp(1200 for DC), so it takes three shots(4 shots) for sieges at 380 damage a shot, and three shots(3 shots only if the chamber doesn't get a single healing tick - which I'm told happens instantly on taking damage, 4 otherwise) if the sieges do 400. So basically the number of shots a chamber takes to die from siege hasn't changed. The impact will come on something with higher hp, like a hive, or things being healed as they are sieged, which appears to be the intent.
More ammo will help in game starts IMO, because for relocates, or sudden pressure, less res is spent ammoing up the pressure group, and they can move out immediately instead of waiting to build the armory (which I'm sure many will still do <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->). The siege damage will have an impact I'm afraid, but hopefully in a good way. Coming for a relatively safe 3.0b5 commander who could win 90+% of the games with sieges, I just hope this "little" bump doesn't over do it. I'm not saying it has or will, because I haven't been able to fully play it yet darn empty FR31NS and non updated LM last night <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> ).
Again, thanks devs for trying to give up a temp update until 3.1, so it doesn't get too boring b/c of off balanceness-ness....
And BTW, hey heavyD, haven't seen you in ages, drop by the server!
<!--QuoteBegin-TOmekki+Jun 2 2005, 05:28 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TOmekki @ Jun 2 2005, 05:28 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Fatal Error+Jun 2 2005, 04:24 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Fatal Error @ Jun 2 2005, 04:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> On the 3.04 server I have played on, (Bry's,) the marines had HMGs and HA before the first fade came around. *shiver* <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> ...
and that never happened before? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, now it can happen 20 seconds earlier. 20 seconds is nice, considering it's early game and fades are <i>just</i> about to appear. 3 minutes HMG - 3 minute fade 2 minute 40 seconds HMG - 3 minute fade <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Comments
Wow, the phenomenon has reached international proportions, I'm amazed.
<!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I am "TeamICE | David Hasselhof" <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
lies
I agree with your assessment in general, the time tweeks are likely to have a greater impact on competitive play (and for the naysayers regarding 2 seconds -> 3 seconds, the point is with higher times you now have to more carefully weigh whether getting Celerity after you spawn, but before you MC into the hive currently under siege is worth it, a whole team of respawning skulks making a poor choice in this regard could easy be the difference in losing a hive and saving it).
However I would argue the time tweeks will impact public play (even if the direct effect is more minor), and that the changes to siege damage is actually the most potent direct change in this version. My (very cynical) gut feeling says the extra starting ammo will overall be a more of an indirect buff, as freshly-spawned Marine will spend less time at the armory, giving them a higher chance of phasing in time to save an outpost.
Someone mentioned earlier the example of chess as a balanced game. NS is completely different.
]/quote]
A very good post Crispy, but I would like to add to your list of differences.
NS is about balancing imbalance. The basic characteristics of each team are fundamentally different - Aliens have advantage at short range, marines at long range. Marines have a single point of coordination, aliens have distributed coordination ( with the help of the hivemind ). Marines have a flexible technology path, aliens have to make and commit to early decisions. Aliens are fast, marines are slow. Aliens have a distributed resource pool, marines have a single resource pool.
The list goes on, and there are exceptions to almost every difference listed above, but I just wanted to point out that the balance problems in NS are there by design, and the difficult task is about stacking up the strenghts and weaknesses in such a way that overall balane is achieved.
TFC is balanced because each team is identical. NS will never achieve this level of 'perfect' balance, though I do believe it <b>can</b> come close to achieving it.
Kinda OT, but I think NS2 needs to revise this whole concept. Specialize in long range vs. short range - okay. One side fast to counter range, other slow - okay. Need for comm on one side, other side "distributed" - NOT okay, since the skills required for comming doesn't transfer well to the alien equivalent, the gorge.
If you are rushing proto tech its a different story because you purposefully arrange for everything to flow quickly and smoothly in the upgrade tree.
But in the course of a normal non-rush upgrade path, there could be 30 seconds or a minute or 3 minutes after the armory is finished, before the proto starts researching. If that much time goes by, then this patch hurts marine proto tech instead of helping it by 10 seconds.
How many times do seiges have to fire to down the hive?
How many times do they have to hit chambers?
How many times do they have to fire to kill the hive if there is an adrenaline gorge?
Its why when you consider marine armor, you focus (lol) on how many bites/swipes/focus bites/swipes it takes to kill a marine.
DrFurious is the only person that pointed out that this is a huge boost to seige power because seiges target chambers first, and now they kill chambers on the first volley. When that happens, the gorges lose their adrenaline and the hive dies in however many less siege vollies. It takes a good commander to so quickly see through the dynamics and numbers like that.
I just hope sieges wont be too powerful now.
Cant wait to test it though, nice changelog..!
This is a very good point, and the proto-'nerfs' were the certainly most violently debated aspects of this patch. In the end, however, it was agreed that this relatively minor counterweight should be sufficient to hinder tech rushes while not inhibiting the rest of the game too far. If it isn't, nobody ever said we can't reverse changes if the need arises. Let's wait and see.
How many times do seiges have to fire to down the hive?
How many times do they have to hit chambers?
How many times do they have to fire to kill the hive if there is an adrenaline gorge?
Its why when you consider marine armor, you focus (lol) on how many bites/swipes/focus bites/swipes it takes to kill a marine.
DrFurious is the only person that pointed out that this is a huge boost to seige power because seiges target chambers first, and now they kill chambers on the first volley. When that happens, the gorges lose their adrenaline and the hive dies in however many less siege vollies. It takes a good commander to so quickly see through the dynamics and numbers like that. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's about time someone recognized my genius.
Wow, the phenomenon has reached international proportions, I'm amazed. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Bah!
Fb, Sub and myself started TeamICE up.
It's <b>our</b> baby!
Chess kicks friggin ****. It is the ultimate game of strategy. NS would be much better if it were more like chess..okay maybe not, but chess is still one of the greatest games in existence.
How are you going to argue that chess is boring (not fun = boring)? That is rediculous. There are an infinite number of possible games, its a metaphorical fight to the death... The only thing that might make chess more exciting would be some randomwhich would be stupid. Game of skill = competition = fun. Plus chess in entirely mental, and when was the last time you tested your mental abilities against another human?
People who say chess is boring or stupid are usually just tired of losing and dont want to take the time to learn the game. Do not bash chess again.
<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I'm thinking about the compiled changelogs between 3b6 and now...and I don't get your point.
Oh, and REAL, take this comment:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Game of skill = competition = fun.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
and apply it to NS. There are plenty of people here who would argue that ns clanplay (competitive play) isn't fun. So...yeah, your justification for why chess is such a great game really doesn't hold water in this community.
Chess kicks friggin ****. It is the ultimate game of strategy. NS would be much better if it were more like chess..okay maybe not, but chess is still one of the greatest games in existence.
How are you going to argue that chess is boring (not fun = boring)? That is rediculous. There are an infinite number of possible games, its a metaphorical fight to the death... The only thing that might make chess more exciting would be some randomwhich would be stupid. Game of skill = competition = fun. Plus chess in entirely mental, and when was the last time you tested your mental abilities against another human?
People who say chess is boring or stupid are usually just tired of losing and dont want to take the time to learn the game. Do not bash chess again. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
QFT
<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I'm thinking about the compiled changelogs between 3b6 and now...and I don't get your point.
Oh, and REAL, take this comment:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Game of skill = competition = fun.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
and apply it to NS. There are plenty of people here who would argue that ns clanplay (competitive play) isn't fun. So...yeah, your justification for why chess is such a great game really doesn't hold water in this community. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And there's plenty of people who will argue that competitive play is very fun.
<span style='color:white'>"'... And you're all black', said the raven to the crow."</span>
Wow, the phenomenon has reached international proportions, I'm amazed. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Bah!
Fb, Sub and myself started TeamICE up.
It's <b>our</b> baby! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm talking about the whole ==quote== thing.
How many times do seiges have to fire to down the hive?
How many times do they have to hit chambers?
How many times do they have to fire to kill the hive if there is an adrenaline gorge?
Its why when you consider marine armor, you focus (lol) on how many bites/swipes/focus bites/swipes it takes to kill a marine.
DrFurious is the only person that pointed out that this is a huge boost to seige power because seiges target chambers first, and now they kill chambers on the first volley. When that happens, the gorges lose their adrenaline and the hive dies in however many less siege vollies. It takes a good commander to so quickly see through the dynamics and numbers like that. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can position the chambers so that the hive will be hit before the chambers, in many cases. If you do that, then the chambers won't die until the hive has already gone down, and the adrenaline gorges will be around to heal the hive. Chambers shouldn't be positioned randomly in the hive.
Of course, the hive will die faster now, and that was the point of the change. However, if the hive dies too fast, based on actual in-game observations, then the change can be reversed.
r u combt or classic? Classic CS mod right? I came from CS!
You contradict yourself here. Consider how many seconds the difference marines starting with extra ammo makes. It takes, what, 2 seconds tops to get the extra two clips from the armory that this patch provides. That means you're comparing 2 seconds to 10 seconds and saying the 2 seconds will have more impact.
In reality, if you actually try to pay attention during a game of NS, you'll realize that every single second counts, especially when you're playing against good opponents. Games of NS last 10-15 minutes, in general. Anything over that is just cleanup time. The reason pub games take so much longer is simply incompetance (I say this only as a statement of fact, not with any attitude). 20 seconds off the AA research time will impact pub play immediately, I predict. And the siege damage increase will impact it a lot.
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and that never happened before?
Again, thanks devs for trying to give up a temp update until 3.1, so it doesn't get too boring b/c of off balanceness-ness....
And BTW, hey heavyD, haven't seen you in ages, drop by the server!
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and that never happened before? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, now it can happen 20 seconds earlier. 20 seconds is nice, considering it's early game and fades are <i>just</i> about to appear.
3 minutes HMG - 3 minute fade
2 minute 40 seconds HMG - 3 minute fade
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It won't. It can't. It never has in almost any game I've played.
Furthermore, it's funny that all these changes are made to other aspects of the game, when the fact remains that
<b>chamber imbalance and free upgrades</b> has caused 90% of the problems with 3.0 final from 3.0 b5. But for some reason, the devs just ignore that.
Whatever.
<span style='color:gray'><snip> Not suitable.</span>