TheAdjHe demanded a cool forum title of some type.Join Date: 2004-05-03Member: 28436Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
Being active for two CAL seasons then sitting by and watching everyone I know continue playing gave me a good bit of insight into how active Competitive NS is, at least American-wise (I do not claim to have any knowledge on European competitive issues, except that Ben sucks). I've seen more clans in Omega the past two seasons than the number of clans in CAL-NS period the previous two seasons. The major boost is clans that continue on the next season, either sticking together or in reform clans. Also the number of players isn't dropping as much, more players stick through another season than before. The two seasons that I played saw major clans die and no one sticking it out to replace them, which is what winnowed Delta down to so few teams, whereas now the Omega league is robust enough to supply Delta-level clans the next season. While NS still has a woefully small community, the retention we're seeing will help to build a decent sized community that is self-sustaining.
On the scripting issue, I have to agree with Furious and others that state other issues separate public and competitive player communities far more. Scripting is considered a major issue by many in the public server communities because they simply are ignorant of all the other issues that revolve around competitive play, scripting is simply the most obvious and easiest thing to pick on competitive players for. Intelligent decisions made in a timely manner are far more important than any advantage a pistol or 3jump script will give. Knowledge of game mechanics and understanding what will produce the desired result when deciding on upgrade/tech/unit choices will always be the main influencer on who becomes a competitive player, as well as personal skill. This is why in public server games with somewhat knowledgable commanders, they often let known clanners run around by themselves, because they require Near-Zero guidance on the game - they observe it without being told.
From personal commanding experience, I rarely told marines where to go unless I knew something of which they did or could not know, or wanted to do something of which knowledge existed only in my brain. In-game operations often become so complicated that explaining the situation and your intention as the comm is simply impossible, there isn't enough time to explain actions or orders. In public play, players rarely trust the commander enough to follow orders like this, whereas clanners almost always instantly follow orders from experienced commanders. This knowledge and trust isn't built instantly, it requires experience, confidence in the commander, and game knowledge. This alone is probably one of the top things that keep public players from being competitive ones instead. The knowledge and playtime required to attain this level of play are simply out of reach for most players, either due to personal/work related restraints, or they simply don't want to put that much time into the game. This is the payoff we make for having an incredibly complex RTS-FPS hybrid, it's not simply about personal skill, it's about knowledge, experience, and man-hours put into the game by the entire team to make the team more effective.
Scripting plays a pretty big role in determining victory for a team. Its as simple as that. Whats the opposing argument? "Anyone using a script to do something can do it without the script perfectly every single time." which is laughable.
As validation for my argument, I think we could use Exigent as a test clan, and simply have them not use any scripts during the playoffs. Maybe have them play against Terror, just to see what happens. Would they ever meet that challenge in an actual match environment? Never.
disclaimer: don't throw some stupid retort about scripts that say "i need a medpack" either, because if you look at the config thread its fairly plain what sort of ridiculous nonsense people script or alias to make NS a walk in the park for themselves. That stuff isn't even worth bringing up.
Oh? Why don't you paste it then, tell us what out of there makes NS a walk in the park. I get the feeling you hardly understand whats happening in that thread.
I'm not here to start an argument so I'm just going to make my last post very simple and end my own contribution to this thread short and sweet.
Prove me wrong. I use scripts myself, because the argument up until now is "well if you don't think they are fair you can use them yourself." My clan is just like any other, I'm sure if someone made a move to block scripts out they would fight tooth and nail. I'm not arguing that they are good, or bad. I'm simply saying they have an impact on the game, unlike most fool themselves into believing. But hey, prove me wrong. Don't use them in an important clan match with everything on the line, if you believe such. But you won't. No one will.
Prove you wrong? How would anyone prove you wrong if you don't have a goddamn point to prove wrong? Of course you'll eternally be right. Just to be on the safe side you even avoid elaborating claims such as everyone having "exploitive *.cfgs". Next I predict you won't reply at all and stick your head in the sand instead.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Don't use them in an important clan match with everything on the line, if you believe such. But you won't. No one will.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Been there, done that several times. Nobody noticed when I was using 3/5 jumps or mwheel. Thats because I have the hardware - sure it would impact me if I had an even shittier mouse, duh? But even that impact would be genuinely miniscule.
The greatest impact of scripting is miniscule, at best. A few players with cumbersome hardware have an easier time bunnyhopping, or might shoot pistolbullets faster than they would otherwise, but still at a subpar rate. Woooo I'm scared, almost as scared as I am of RouterBox fading.
To some degree I can at least comprehend this whole paranoia issue with scripting, and blowing it way out of proportion. When I was pretty nub back in the day, and with appropriately nub aim, I thought firing my pistolbullets a bit faster was the best thing ever and now I might occasionally get a pistolkill (OHMYGAWD SO OWNED I KILLED SOMEONE WITH A PISTOL OHMYGAWD IM AWESOME), but in the grand scheme of things it turned out to be really a neglibly tiny and worthless change when I discovered things such as actually aiming and moving correctly (WOAH).
Hey, maybe mp_bs 1 would make a noticable difference in Omega and lower Delta. Who knows.
<!--QuoteBegin-SaltzBad+Jun 17 2005, 06:46 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SaltzBad @ Jun 17 2005, 06:46 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The greatest impact of scripting is miniscule, at best. A few players with cumbersome hardware have an easier time bunnyhopping, or might shoot pistolbullets faster than they would otherwise, but still at a subpar rate. Woooo I'm scared, almost as scared as I am of RouterBox fading. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Remember when i lost my fade in 12 seconds during our playoff match?
I scrim on bs_0 servers using a 3jump, I then play in official league matches with bs_1 where everything is on the line. The result vs the team is never different from previous scrims againist them.
Sorry.
EDIT: Wow, I finally found a use for eu leagues having bs_1, it totally negates that arguement.
<!--QuoteBegin-Router Box+Jun 16 2005, 10:25 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Router Box @ Jun 16 2005, 10:25 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> All of this information is available. If people want to know how to bunny hop, or pistol script, they can seek out the information. The problem isn't a lack of information, its the people that don't go to find it, and are happy to fling around excuses for why they got owned.
EDIT: yeah... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Not at all. The problem is an ignorance which can be easily rectified by endorsed communication from the Dev team to bring the Public and Competitive players closer together. Less bitching about scripts will automatically mean more time to learn and understand the game.
<!--QuoteBegin-Golden+Jun 13 2005, 08:13 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Golden @ Jun 13 2005, 08:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I am sick of listening to people whine about how much scripts effect gameplay. They don't that much. Take any top level clan you want (Terror, Exi, LoC, Reflect, knife, etc.) and make them play without scripts. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> knife is playing without scripts... i don't know any euro playing in euro league wich ones use scripts :O.
<!--QuoteBegin-DRagon+Jun 17 2005, 05:12 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DRagon @ Jun 17 2005, 05:12 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Golden+Jun 13 2005, 08:13 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Golden @ Jun 13 2005, 08:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I am sick of listening to people whine about how much scripts effect gameplay. They don't that much. Take any top level clan you want (Terror, Exi, LoC, Reflect, knife, etc.) and make them play without scripts. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> knife is playing without scripts... i don't know any euro playing in euro league wich ones use scripts :O. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> i like the way he included LoC along with Terror exigent and knife, anyway yeah,
knife dont even use scripts nor do any other european teams. i think there is an advantage provided by even basic +3jump and pistol scripts (i remember watching the first week of cal omega, all these players had pistol scripts and fired into the walls at max rof) but i dont think they have a significant impact on games, like ben said we often play with bs_0 for pcws on some european servers and with bs_1 for others and matches without a significant effect other than it being a little annoying to use mousewheel.
<!--QuoteBegin-Anderval+Jun 17 2005, 05:26 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Anderval @ Jun 17 2005, 05:26 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-DRagon+Jun 17 2005, 05:12 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DRagon @ Jun 17 2005, 05:12 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Golden+Jun 13 2005, 08:13 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Golden @ Jun 13 2005, 08:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I am sick of listening to people whine about how much scripts effect gameplay. They don't that much. Take any top level clan you want (Terror, Exi, LoC, Reflect, knife, etc.) and make them play without scripts. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> knife is playing without scripts... i don't know any euro playing in euro league wich ones use scripts :O. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> i like the way he included LoC along with Terror exigent and knife, anyway yeah,
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> yeah that is strange :O.
Blaming scripts does a few things for the pub-allstar.
1)Helps him/her save face in front of his/her eFriends. For example a score 4/12 could be attritbuted to the people that kill him using scripts ("I'm only doing bad because that player *insert competitiv player's name * is using scripts, LOL Pathetic !!11one.)
2)Provides an illusion that the person who is getting slammed is still a good player (even if consistently getting beat), because that player can use the scripts as an excuse even though the competitive player would be more experienced, have better aim, have better control of movements, superior tactics, and greater knowledge of the game. All of that does not get factored in when a player uses a script. #2 is a good example for someone who is of high eStatus on the server and who has a little bit of talent so against the regulars this player can do fairly well, but at the same time, this player is a scrub and can't show error in front of the people he either admins, or regulars with.
3)Allows for venting of frustration of getting beat. Ever noticed that the people who blame scripts in a server usually have below a 1:1 Kill:Death Ratio? These people will only blame scripts especially if the person getting accused has greater than 2:1 ratio. These people get so raged that they start to spectate the person. Whats ironic though is that I've seen people spectate and accuse people of cheats but never take back an accusation if they are wrong. Shouldn't spectating prove "guilt or innocence" instead of just guilt? These players also usually won't spectate when the alledged cheater/scripter is on their team and performs well.
I'm sure there are more, as I play on more BS_1 servers, I'm curious to see how the adapting methods are when they take no fault in their inability to counter superior players.
<!--QuoteBegin-Crispy+Jun 13 2005, 07:05 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Crispy @ Jun 13 2005, 07:05 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Bunnyhopping isn't mentioned in the "'Official' NS Manual" nor in NiteOwl's "Community Manual". While the 'official' manual is admitted as being outdated (its last update was way back in Feb '04), none of the information linked to from the main page makes any mention of the movement options available to both teams. What's a newbie supposed to assume? Speedhax?
I think that the manual seriously needs addressing in light of the fact that the My Games listing is fast approaching; something that will bring another influx of players to NS (not to mention UWE). If we want them to stick around, it's better to guide them into competitive play, which we all know is the only surefire way of keeping players playing any one game for a long period of time (say the same long period of time it might take for Source or UWE's first commercial title to be released).
Anyway I'm sure the Devs know exactly what this thread's about. If I sound like a spoilt whining brat, let me tell you I'm not. I know the difficulties involved in making and maintaining a Mod, that's why I think it's important to give back some community-based feedback.
[Edit] NiteOlm !!?? [Edit2] Surely the Manual must have been edited more recently since it has the structure parasite sprite... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The fact that *edited so my digital text doesn't eFend someone*did not include bunnyhopping in his manual makes it incomplete. But of course this post will probably be edited.
There was no reason (other than maybe his own ignorance on the subject) NOT to include as so many players see it as an essential part of the game.
<!--QuoteBegin-DRagon+Jun 17 2005, 11:36 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DRagon @ Jun 17 2005, 11:36 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Anderval+Jun 17 2005, 05:26 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Anderval @ Jun 17 2005, 05:26 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-DRagon+Jun 17 2005, 05:12 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DRagon @ Jun 17 2005, 05:12 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Golden+Jun 13 2005, 08:13 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Golden @ Jun 13 2005, 08:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I am sick of listening to people whine about how much scripts effect gameplay. They don't that much. Take any top level clan you want (Terror, Exi, LoC, Reflect, knife, etc.) and make them play without scripts. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> knife is playing without scripts... i don't know any euro playing in euro league wich ones use scripts :O. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> i like the way he included LoC along with Terror exigent and knife, anyway yeah,
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> yeah that is strange :O. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> LoC tied both exi and terror this season and are entering the playoffs ranked 4th. They haven't stopped their sharp improvement since it began at the beginning of last season. They are most likely the worst team of that group, but they aren't out of place.
<!--QuoteBegin-Router Box+Jun 17 2005, 12:25 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Router Box @ Jun 17 2005, 12:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-DRagon+Jun 17 2005, 11:36 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DRagon @ Jun 17 2005, 11:36 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Anderval+Jun 17 2005, 05:26 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Anderval @ Jun 17 2005, 05:26 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-DRagon+Jun 17 2005, 05:12 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DRagon @ Jun 17 2005, 05:12 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Golden+Jun 13 2005, 08:13 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Golden @ Jun 13 2005, 08:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I am sick of listening to people whine about how much scripts effect gameplay. They don't that much. Take any top level clan you want (Terror, Exi, LoC, Reflect, knife, etc.) and make them play without scripts. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> knife is playing without scripts... i don't know any euro playing in euro league wich ones use scripts :O. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> i like the way he included LoC along with Terror exigent and knife, anyway yeah,
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> yeah that is strange :O. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> LoC tied both exi and terror this season and are entering the playoffs ranked 4th. They haven't stopped their sharp improvement since it began at the beginning of last season. They are most likely the worst team of that group, but they aren't out of place. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> We'll see about that tomorrow, now won't we? <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I included knife because they're one of the best teams in the world. And they don't use scripts. Show's you that just using scripts doesn't make you better at the game.
<!--QuoteBegin-BulletHead+Jun 17 2005, 02:58 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BulletHead @ Jun 17 2005, 02:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Look at these games:
DoD Delta Force Series BHD AvP Starfleet Command Star Trek Armada ST Voyager: Elite Force I and II
In ALL those games, scripting is, in general, FROWNED upon if not grounds for PERMA BANS from many servers! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Scripting is not allowed in DoD because you can do things that were not <b>intended</b> to be done. I'm assuming your post is sarcasm due to the many sh1tty games mentioned, but DoD isn't a bad game at all.
<!--QuoteBegin-BulletHead+Jun 17 2005, 02:58 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BulletHead @ Jun 17 2005, 02:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Look at these games:
DoD Delta Force Series BHD AvP Starfleet Command Star Trek Armada ST Voyager: Elite Force I and II
In ALL those games, scripting is, in general, FROWNED upon if not grounds for PERMA BANS from many servers! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> foad please.
Hahaha, yeah, i can see why scripting is not allowed in DoD, just tried some scripting in DoD and i figured out i can PERFECTLY script the strafing left to right and getting 100% accuracy, something i've precticed for like 3 weeks and still can't get the timing down.
a_civilianLikes seeing numbersJoin Date: 2003-01-08Member: 12041Members, NS1 Playtester, Playtest Lead
This is how the "official" NS community treats scripts and competitive play: <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->[01:38:08] <Kles> Ugh. [01:38:15] <Kles> If I 3jump I miss much worse then if I 2jump [01:38:35] <BlackMage> why noy just 1jump like the rest of us? [01:38:47] <[KMA]GhanjiKhan> join a cal channel for that bs [01:38:59] <Kles> BlackMage: I'm learning how to do it and I need to figure out the basic mechanics? [01:39:18] <Kles> I'll do 1jump when I can 2jump with my eyes shut. [01:39:22] <[KMA]GhanjiKhan> and enjoy the stress of being an **** and the need to compete [01:39:31] <Kles> Hey, I totally suck at this game. [01:39:35] <Kles> I'm just trying to be better. [01:39:42] <Kles> I'm not worried about CAL or anything. [01:39:43] <DuoGodOfDeath> Kles just ignore all the llama's here, script if you want to nothing wrong with it [01:39:43] <[KMA]GhanjiKhan> thats not how you do it [01:39:58] <^Milo> do what [01:39:58] <Kles> I've actually never joined a clan in about seven or eight years in anything. [01:40:05] <Kles> I just don't like them. [01:40:13] <DOOManiac|MomsComputer> 3jump? 2jump? what are these jumping magnitudes of which you speak? [01:40:31] <BlackMage> jumpscript [01:40:34] <DOOManiac|MomsComputer> oh [01:40:35] <[KMA]GhanjiKhan> it's a **** pump [01:40:44] <DOOManiac|MomsComputer> a no skilled script kiddie. [01:40:44] <BlackMage> 3jump makes you jump three times on a button up/down [01:40:45] <DOOManiac|MomsComputer> it's okay [01:40:50] <DOOManiac|MomsComputer> rocket jump scripts ftl [01:40:51] <BlackMage> not even [01:40:58] <^Milo> no blackmage [01:41:07] <BlackMage> or something like that [01:41:13] <^Milo> its sends 3 jump commands so it making timing easier [01:41:16] <DOOManiac|MomsComputer> i'd gladly play someone who sucks so much they need a rocket jump script, cause i will own them to pieces >:D [01:41:22] <^Milo> it doesnt jump 3 times for you [01:41:25] <DOOManiac|MomsComputer> q1 dm3 pwnage [01:41:30] <BlackMage> ohhhh, so it's for people who can't hit jump? [01:41:39] <^Milo> it helps timing [01:41:49] <BlackMage> play ddr for a few minutes [01:41:52] <^Milo> as in u still need to hit space everytime u want to jump [01:42:01] <[KMA]GhanjiKhan> no, it's for people who can't play the game like it's suppose to be played [01:42:19] <[exi]-civilian> it's basically a replacement for the mousewheel [01:42:22] <DOOManiac|MomsComputer> i guess if they suck so bad they can't jump... well... [01:42:29] <[exi]-civilian> wow [01:42:32] <BlackMage> it's a replacement for rythm and timing [01:42:35] <DuoGodOfDeath> civilian, your job is to take the place of Milo because he is scriming with us [01:42:37] <^Milo> yeah us scripters really suck [01:42:43] <DuoGodOfDeath> Milo SUYF and SERVER TIME [01:43:05] <[exi]-civilian> why bother [01:43:11] <[exi]-civilian> it's already ingrained in their minds [01:43:26] <Kles> BlackMage, stop being a jerk. [time lapse] [01:44:39] <BlackMage> im other news, script kiddies continue to annoy me [01:44:44] <Kles> But anyways, I'm sorry not to be blessed with your incredible manual dexterity and that I cannot 1jump bunny hop within my first three days of learning how to do it. [01:44:53] <Kles> Again, sorry for wasting your precious air. [01:45:28] <[KMA]GhanjiKhan> kles, join a cal clan and then you'll understand [01:45:31] <aonomus> it seems many clanners do stupid flame/rage things [01:45:32] <Kles> Oh, I gathered that already. [01:45:49] <[KMA]GhanjiKhan> and talk stoopid [01:45:59] <[KMA]GhanjiKhan> like the cx clan [01:46:08] <DOOManiac|MomsComputer> <aonomus> it seems many clanners do stupid flame/rage things << its called being a clanner<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Little wonder that the competitive scene is in such a stagnant state.
Scripts also gives those criticize them a sense of enpowerment or skill. Because they are natural players they must also be better than those with scripts, regardless of the scripter's talent. And if they aren't, they can remind the player in a condesending manner that scripts require "no skill". Not a bad posistion to be in!
Also aren't those ops breaking respect rules? Or is that just another justified hyporcacy within the staff of NS?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->These guidelines represent the policy on the NS forums, on this website, and in all NS IRC channels (#naturalselection).
- Never, ever, under any circumstance, attack or "flame" anyone. Ever. No behavior is bad enough that warrants retaliation.
- <b>Remain friendly and civil at all times. Be helpful when possible. Treat others the way you would like to be treated. </b>
- Use of the NS forums or IRC channel is a privilege, not a right. NS community officials reserve the right to create the community we want to be a part of.
- Swearing, and use of slurs about race or sexual-orientation are prohibited. Words that try to sneak around the swear filter are prohibited.
- <b>Slanderous, defamatory, false, obscene, indecent, lewd, pornographic, abusive, insulting, threatening, harassing or obnoxious comments are not appropriate in the NS community. Posting illegal or pornographic images will get you banned.</b>
- <b>Any form of direct or indirect personal attack or harassment is prohibited.</b>
- Any comment that calls for or encourages unlawful or illegal behavior or might result in harm to others is prohibited.
- Please stay on topic. Rambling or off-topic topics may be deleted without warning.
- Aggressive advertising is not allowed.
- If you wish to emphasize your point, use a bold font. Obnoxious use of oversized fonts and headings will not allowed.
- Use of non-NS copyrighted materials in posts or in chat are discouraged and could be removed without notice.
- If a user breaks any of these rules, they will generally get a warning. Repeated offenses will result in temporary or permanent suspension of your account or banning from IRC. The forum moderators and IRC operators will use their best judgement in these cases.
- If you feel you've been unfairly treated, send a clearly-written e-mail to abuse@naturalselection.com. Please send IRC transcripts, your forum posts, and anything else to represent your case. You will not get a response, but if an NS community admin is being abusive, it will be clear and action will be taken to fix the situation. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
just to add: yeah, most people with a clue wouldn't really give a **** what the regs and ops in #naturalselection feed to each other, but they also share their opinions as facts to new nsplayers taking their first steps in the world of irc, and possibly organised NS.
Comments
On the scripting issue, I have to agree with Furious and others that state other issues separate public and competitive player communities far more. Scripting is considered a major issue by many in the public server communities because they simply are ignorant of all the other issues that revolve around competitive play, scripting is simply the most obvious and easiest thing to pick on competitive players for. Intelligent decisions made in a timely manner are far more important than any advantage a pistol or 3jump script will give. Knowledge of game mechanics and understanding what will produce the desired result when deciding on upgrade/tech/unit choices will always be the main influencer on who becomes a competitive player, as well as personal skill. This is why in public server games with somewhat knowledgable commanders, they often let known clanners run around by themselves, because they require Near-Zero guidance on the game - they observe it without being told.
From personal commanding experience, I rarely told marines where to go unless I knew something of which they did or could not know, or wanted to do something of which knowledge existed only in my brain. In-game operations often become so complicated that explaining the situation and your intention as the comm is simply impossible, there isn't enough time to explain actions or orders. In public play, players rarely trust the commander enough to follow orders like this, whereas clanners almost always instantly follow orders from experienced commanders. This knowledge and trust isn't built instantly, it requires experience, confidence in the commander, and game knowledge. This alone is probably one of the top things that keep public players from being competitive ones instead. The knowledge and playtime required to attain this level of play are simply out of reach for most players, either due to personal/work related restraints, or they simply don't want to put that much time into the game. This is the payoff we make for having an incredibly complex RTS-FPS hybrid, it's not simply about personal skill, it's about knowledge, experience, and man-hours put into the game by the entire team to make the team more effective.
As validation for my argument, I think we could use Exigent as a test clan, and simply have them not use any scripts during the playoffs. Maybe have them play against Terror, just to see what happens. Would they ever meet that challenge in an actual match environment? Never.
disclaimer: don't throw some stupid retort about scripts that say "i need a medpack" either, because if you look at the config thread its fairly plain what sort of ridiculous nonsense people script or alias to make NS a walk in the park for themselves. That stuff isn't even worth bringing up.
Prove me wrong. I use scripts myself, because the argument up until now is "well if you don't think they are fair you can use them yourself." My clan is just like any other, I'm sure if someone made a move to block scripts out they would fight tooth and nail. I'm not arguing that they are good, or bad. I'm simply saying they have an impact on the game, unlike most fool themselves into believing. But hey, prove me wrong. Don't use them in an important clan match with everything on the line, if you believe such. But you won't. No one will.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Don't use them in an important clan match with everything on the line, if you believe such. But you won't. No one will.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Been there, done that several times. Nobody noticed when I was using 3/5 jumps or mwheel. Thats because I have the hardware - sure it would impact me if I had an even shittier mouse, duh? But even that impact would be genuinely miniscule.
The greatest impact of scripting is miniscule, at best. A few players with cumbersome hardware have an easier time bunnyhopping, or might shoot pistolbullets faster than they would otherwise, but still at a subpar rate. Woooo I'm scared, almost as scared as I am of RouterBox fading.
To some degree I can at least comprehend this whole paranoia issue with scripting, and blowing it way out of proportion. When I was pretty nub back in the day, and with appropriately nub aim, I thought firing my pistolbullets a bit faster was the best thing ever and now I might occasionally get a pistolkill (OHMYGAWD SO OWNED I KILLED SOMEONE WITH A PISTOL OHMYGAWD IM AWESOME), but in the grand scheme of things it turned out to be really a neglibly tiny and worthless change when I discovered things such as actually aiming and moving correctly (WOAH).
Hey, maybe mp_bs 1 would make a noticable difference in Omega and lower Delta. Who knows.
Remember when i lost my fade in 12 seconds during our playoff match?
Sorry.
EDIT: Wow, I finally found a use for eu leagues having bs_1, it totally negates that arguement.
EDIT: yeah... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not at all. The problem is an ignorance which can be easily rectified by endorsed communication from the Dev team to bring the Public and Competitive players closer together. Less bitching about scripts will automatically mean more time to learn and understand the game.
knife is playing without scripts... i don't know any euro playing in euro league wich ones use scripts :O.
knife is playing without scripts... i don't know any euro playing in euro league wich ones use scripts :O. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
i like the way he included LoC along with Terror exigent and knife, anyway yeah,
knife dont even use scripts nor do any other european teams. i think there is an advantage provided by even basic +3jump and pistol scripts (i remember watching the first week of cal omega, all these players had pistol scripts and fired into the walls at max rof) but i dont think they have a significant impact on games, like ben said we often play with bs_0 for pcws on some european servers and with bs_1 for others and matches without a significant effect other than it being a little annoying to use mousewheel.
knife is playing without scripts... i don't know any euro playing in euro league wich ones use scripts :O. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i like the way he included LoC along with Terror exigent and knife, anyway yeah,
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
yeah that is strange :O.
1)Helps him/her save face in front of his/her eFriends. For example a score 4/12 could be attritbuted to the people that kill him using scripts ("I'm only doing bad because that player *insert competitiv player's name * is using scripts, LOL Pathetic !!11one.)
2)Provides an illusion that the person who is getting slammed is still a good player (even if consistently getting beat), because that player can use the scripts as an excuse even though the competitive player would be more experienced, have better aim, have better control of movements, superior tactics, and greater knowledge of the game. All of that does not get factored in when a player uses a script. #2 is a good example for someone who is of high eStatus on the server and who has a little bit of talent so against the regulars this player can do fairly well, but at the same time, this player is a scrub and can't show error in front of the people he either admins, or regulars with.
3)Allows for venting of frustration of getting beat. Ever noticed that the people who blame scripts in a server usually have below a 1:1 Kill:Death Ratio? These people will only blame scripts especially if the person getting accused has greater than 2:1 ratio. These people get so raged that they start to spectate the person. Whats ironic though is that I've seen people spectate and accuse people of cheats but never take back an accusation if they are wrong. Shouldn't spectating prove "guilt or innocence" instead of just guilt? These players also usually won't spectate when the alledged cheater/scripter is on their team and performs well.
I'm sure there are more, as I play on more BS_1 servers, I'm curious to see how the adapting methods are when they take no fault in their inability to counter superior players.
I think that the manual seriously needs addressing in light of the fact that the My Games listing is fast approaching; something that will bring another influx of players to NS (not to mention UWE). If we want them to stick around, it's better to guide them into competitive play, which we all know is the only surefire way of keeping players playing any one game for a long period of time (say the same long period of time it might take for Source or UWE's first commercial title to be released).
Anyway I'm sure the Devs know exactly what this thread's about. If I sound like a spoilt whining brat, let me tell you I'm not. I know the difficulties involved in making and maintaining a Mod, that's why I think it's important to give back some community-based feedback.
[Edit] NiteOlm !!??
[Edit2] Surely the Manual must have been edited more recently since it has the structure parasite sprite... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The fact that *edited so my digital text doesn't eFend someone*did not include bunnyhopping in his manual makes it incomplete. But of course this post will probably be edited.
There was no reason (other than maybe his own ignorance on the subject) NOT to include as so many players see it as an essential part of the game.
knife is playing without scripts... i don't know any euro playing in euro league wich ones use scripts :O. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i like the way he included LoC along with Terror exigent and knife, anyway yeah,
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yeah that is strange :O. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
LoC tied both exi and terror this season and are entering the playoffs ranked 4th. They haven't stopped their sharp improvement since it began at the beginning of last season. They are most likely the worst team of that group, but they aren't out of place.
knife is playing without scripts... i don't know any euro playing in euro league wich ones use scripts :O. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i like the way he included LoC along with Terror exigent and knife, anyway yeah,
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yeah that is strange :O. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
LoC tied both exi and terror this season and are entering the playoffs ranked 4th. They haven't stopped their sharp improvement since it began at the beginning of last season. They are most likely the worst team of that group, but they aren't out of place. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
We'll see about that tomorrow, now won't we? <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I included knife because they're one of the best teams in the world. And they don't use scripts. Show's you that just using scripts doesn't make you better at the game.
DoD
Delta Force Series
BHD
AvP
Starfleet Command
Star Trek Armada
ST Voyager: Elite Force I and II
In ALL those games, scripting is, in general, FROWNED upon if not grounds for PERMA BANS from many servers!
DoD
Delta Force Series
BHD
AvP
Starfleet Command
Star Trek Armada
ST Voyager: Elite Force I and II
In ALL those games, scripting is, in general, FROWNED upon if not grounds for PERMA BANS from many servers! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Scripting is not allowed in DoD because you can do things that were not <b>intended</b> to be done. I'm assuming your post is sarcasm due to the many sh1tty games mentioned, but DoD isn't a bad game at all.
DoD
Delta Force Series
BHD
AvP
Starfleet Command
Star Trek Armada
ST Voyager: Elite Force I and II
In ALL those games, scripting is, in general, FROWNED upon if not grounds for PERMA BANS from many servers! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
foad please.
btw, why do alot of people hate DoD =[
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->[01:38:08] <Kles> Ugh.
[01:38:15] <Kles> If I 3jump I miss much worse then if I 2jump
[01:38:35] <BlackMage> why noy just 1jump like the rest of us?
[01:38:47] <[KMA]GhanjiKhan> join a cal channel for that bs
[01:38:59] <Kles> BlackMage: I'm learning how to do it and I need to figure out the basic mechanics?
[01:39:18] <Kles> I'll do 1jump when I can 2jump with my eyes shut.
[01:39:22] <[KMA]GhanjiKhan> and enjoy the stress of being an **** and the need to compete
[01:39:31] <Kles> Hey, I totally suck at this game.
[01:39:35] <Kles> I'm just trying to be better.
[01:39:42] <Kles> I'm not worried about CAL or anything.
[01:39:43] <DuoGodOfDeath> Kles just ignore all the llama's here, script if you want to nothing wrong with it
[01:39:43] <[KMA]GhanjiKhan> thats not how you do it
[01:39:58] <^Milo> do what
[01:39:58] <Kles> I've actually never joined a clan in about seven or eight years in anything.
[01:40:05] <Kles> I just don't like them.
[01:40:13] <DOOManiac|MomsComputer> 3jump? 2jump? what are these jumping magnitudes of which you speak?
[01:40:31] <BlackMage> jumpscript
[01:40:34] <DOOManiac|MomsComputer> oh
[01:40:35] <[KMA]GhanjiKhan> it's a **** pump
[01:40:44] <DOOManiac|MomsComputer> a no skilled script kiddie.
[01:40:44] <BlackMage> 3jump makes you jump three times on a button up/down
[01:40:45] <DOOManiac|MomsComputer> it's okay
[01:40:50] <DOOManiac|MomsComputer> rocket jump scripts ftl
[01:40:51] <BlackMage> not even
[01:40:58] <^Milo> no blackmage
[01:41:07] <BlackMage> or something like that
[01:41:13] <^Milo> its sends 3 jump commands so it making timing easier
[01:41:16] <DOOManiac|MomsComputer> i'd gladly play someone who sucks so much they need a rocket jump script, cause i will own them to pieces >:D
[01:41:22] <^Milo> it doesnt jump 3 times for you
[01:41:25] <DOOManiac|MomsComputer> q1 dm3 pwnage
[01:41:30] <BlackMage> ohhhh, so it's for people who can't hit jump?
[01:41:39] <^Milo> it helps timing
[01:41:49] <BlackMage> play ddr for a few minutes
[01:41:52] <^Milo> as in u still need to hit space everytime u want to jump
[01:42:01] <[KMA]GhanjiKhan> no, it's for people who can't play the game like it's suppose to be played
[01:42:19] <[exi]-civilian> it's basically a replacement for the mousewheel
[01:42:22] <DOOManiac|MomsComputer> i guess if they suck so bad they can't jump... well...
[01:42:29] <[exi]-civilian> wow
[01:42:32] <BlackMage> it's a replacement for rythm and timing
[01:42:35] <DuoGodOfDeath> civilian, your job is to take the place of Milo because he is scriming with us
[01:42:37] <^Milo> yeah us scripters really suck
[01:42:43] <DuoGodOfDeath> Milo SUYF and SERVER TIME
[01:43:05] <[exi]-civilian> why bother
[01:43:11] <[exi]-civilian> it's already ingrained in their minds
[01:43:26] <Kles> BlackMage, stop being a jerk.
[time lapse]
[01:44:39] <BlackMage> im other news, script kiddies continue to annoy me
[01:44:44] <Kles> But anyways, I'm sorry not to be blessed with your incredible manual dexterity and that I cannot 1jump bunny hop within my first three days of learning how to do it.
[01:44:53] <Kles> Again, sorry for wasting your precious air.
[01:45:28] <[KMA]GhanjiKhan> kles, join a cal clan and then you'll understand
[01:45:31] <aonomus> it seems many clanners do stupid flame/rage things
[01:45:32] <Kles> Oh, I gathered that already.
[01:45:49] <[KMA]GhanjiKhan> and talk stoopid
[01:45:59] <[KMA]GhanjiKhan> like the cx clan
[01:46:08] <DOOManiac|MomsComputer> <aonomus> it seems many clanners do stupid flame/rage things << its called being a clanner<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Little wonder that the competitive scene is in such a stagnant state.
Also aren't those ops breaking respect rules? Or is that just another justified hyporcacy within the staff of NS?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->These guidelines represent the policy on the NS forums, on this website, and in all NS IRC channels (#naturalselection).
- Never, ever, under any circumstance, attack or "flame" anyone. Ever. No behavior is bad enough that warrants retaliation.
- <b>Remain friendly and civil at all times. Be helpful when possible. Treat others the way you would like to be treated. </b>
- Use of the NS forums or IRC channel is a privilege, not a right. NS community officials reserve the right to create the community we want to be a part of.
- Swearing, and use of slurs about race or sexual-orientation are prohibited. Words that try to sneak around the swear filter are prohibited.
- <b>Slanderous, defamatory, false, obscene, indecent, lewd, pornographic, abusive, insulting, threatening, harassing or obnoxious comments are not appropriate in the NS community. Posting illegal or pornographic images will get you banned.</b>
- <b>Any form of direct or indirect personal attack or harassment is prohibited.</b>
- Any comment that calls for or encourages unlawful or illegal behavior or might result in harm to others is prohibited.
- Please stay on topic. Rambling or off-topic topics may be deleted without warning.
- Aggressive advertising is not allowed.
- If you wish to emphasize your point, use a bold font. Obnoxious use of oversized fonts and headings will not allowed.
- Use of non-NS copyrighted materials in posts or in chat are discouraged and could be removed without notice.
- If a user breaks any of these rules, they will generally get a warning. Repeated offenses will result in temporary or permanent suspension of your account or banning from IRC. The forum moderators and IRC operators will use their best judgement in these cases.
- If you feel you've been unfairly treated, send a clearly-written e-mail to abuse@naturalselection.com. Please send IRC transcripts, your forum posts, and anything else to represent your case. You will not get a response, but if an NS community admin is being abusive, it will be clear and action will be taken to fix the situation. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Looks like justified hypocracy to me!
but i guess most of the people who look after the community don't care because they don't use IRC often (Marik Steele, Nem Zero?)
Anyway, last time I checked, about 3 people in #naturalselection actually still play NS, and none of them are the ops. They obviously don't care.