<!--QuoteBegin-Mendasp+Jul 15 2005, 12:02 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mendasp @ Jul 15 2005, 12:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Do you seriously think the devs removed the entities just to ruin the already hard experience to make a full NS map? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> know what? I REALLY dont know that. I cant even imagine.
but its a fact that there had some entities been removed that had not to. (uh what a tricky sentence <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->)
moultanoCreator of ns_shiva.Join Date: 2002-12-14Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
<!--QuoteBegin-Lt Gravity+Jul 15 2005, 12:35 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Lt Gravity @ Jul 15 2005, 12:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> but its a fact that there had some entities been removed that had not to. (uh what a tricky sentence <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> LOL. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> I think you mean: However, it is a fact that some entities were removed that did not have to be removed.
tankefuglOne Script To Rule Them All...Trondheim, NorwayJoin Date: 2002-11-14Member: 8641Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
<b>Nothing</b> has been removed from the game with the intention of making custom maps harder to make. If things have been removed, it has most probably been for technical reasons.
The HL engine is a bit messy, tangled, and not as straight forward as you'd believe it to be, so even seemingly harmless things can have unforseen consequences.
<!--QuoteBegin-moultano+Jul 15 2005, 01:20 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (moultano @ Jul 15 2005, 01:20 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Lt Gravity+Jul 15 2005, 12:35 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Lt Gravity @ Jul 15 2005, 12:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> but its a fact that there had some entities been removed that had not to. (uh what a tricky sentence <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> LOL. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> I think you mean: However, it is a fact that some entities were removed that did not have to be removed. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> *hides*
the should rather bring some of the scripting entities back so you can have little bit more freedom creating atmospheric elements. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Scripting entities, like...multi_managers, trigger_changetarget, trigger_relay, trigger_auto and NS's own entity, trigger_random?
I'm afraid they're already in there, there's nothing to 'bring back' unless I'm missing something vital.
Oh, well there was an info_goodmap but we took that out to give mappers a challenge. I mean, we don't want to make things <i>easy</i> do we?
<!--QuoteBegin-moultano+Jul 14 2005, 08:14 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (moultano @ Jul 14 2005, 08:14 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I had a pretty cool idea for the whole nanogrid thing in outdoor maps. The resource nodes would have to be in man made structures to not look retarded, but I was thinking that the in between areas could be surrounded with nanite emitting pylons that extend the nangrid beyond the base for field work.
Imagine a dimly lit forest with lamp-post-shaped towers 10 feet tall or so spread among the underbrush with electronics at the top glowing from the chemical heat of nanite production. Imagine these things glowing with the sputtering light of gas lanterns but with an eerie blue tinge. I think it could be pretty cool <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's exactly the thought I was having. So long as there is reason for it, outdoor areas could easily have plausible 'nanite pumps' ensuring a minimal level of nanite quantity in the air for sustaining whatever equipment or technology might be needed around the area.
Having them in a forest would need a good explaination of why they're there of course, but the full capabilities and role of nanites in the NS universe isn't a mapped set thing, for the sake of creative freedom you may as well put 'here be dragons' on such a point. We're not looking to build NS maps within a creative shell with fear of stepping over the line as it might not be 'real enough'. We should be looking to kick those walls down with vengeful force and exploring all ideas and possibilities, just so long as the atmosphere and character of NS remains. Who really cares if you can build outside or not, but if you can, preferably think up a reason for it (not that I did with Heras landing pad).
For example, ships may have nanite pumps on the outside to enable ship repair in space without having to leave the safety of the hull, allowing for wild uninhabited outdoor areas to have a nanite presence around the ships exterior.
Forests could have them as a means of powering transport gear around the area, or for whatever reason.
NS's universe is not meant to be shrinking, ala (___) (_) O o . , but very much so the opposite. And its up to us people, being the creators of NS's environments and settings, to be exploring these areas. We pull together all the assets of the game; sounds, models, textures, and gameplay, and shape them into the world that is Natural Selection. And there is never a good time to close off ideas.
NS's world and the assets at hand are clay. You can make whatever you wish with it, but in the end its made of simple clay. Some sculptures will not be as appealing as others, but never should fear of it not being accepted stop you from experimenting or else nothing will evolve.
MouseThe Lighter Side of PessimismJoin Date: 2002-03-02Member: 263Members, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<!--QuoteBegin-Merkaba+Jul 16 2005, 10:40 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Merkaba @ Jul 16 2005, 10:40 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Oh, well there was an info_goodmap but we took that out to give mappers a challenge. I mean, we don't want to make things <i>easy</i> do we? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I miss that entity. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
well said merkaba <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
i was thinking a forcefield of some kind would be neat looking in an outdoor map, creating a massive dome arround the playing field, which could be generated from a ship, or some type of device on the ground. the forcefield could be an excuse for the nanites staying within the area.
it could be pretty transparent, but have a pulsing glow, maybe a light orange.
MouseThe Lighter Side of PessimismJoin Date: 2002-03-02Member: 263Members, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
I have two main problems with outdoor maps.
1) How do you make it <b>feel</b> like NS
2) A number of the methods of transport available to the player pretty much allow them to go whereever they damnwell please; at what point do you prevent them from going any further than you want them and how do you do it without 'breaking the illusion'
the should rather bring some of the scripting entities back so you can have little bit more freedom creating atmospheric elements. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Scripting entities, like...multi_managers, trigger_changetarget, trigger_relay, trigger_auto and NS's own entity, trigger_random?
I'm afraid they're already in there, there's nothing to 'bring back' unless I'm missing something vital.
Oh, well there was an info_goodmap but we took that out to give mappers a challenge. I mean, we don't want to make things <i>easy</i> do we? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> - scripted_sequence - airscripted_sequence - monster_maker
<!--QuoteBegin-Mouse+Jul 16 2005, 10:53 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mouse @ Jul 16 2005, 10:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I have two main problems with outdoor maps.
1) How do you make it <b>feel</b> like NS
2) A number of the methods of transport available to the player pretty much allow them to go whereever they damnwell please; at what point do you prevent them from going any further than you want them and how do you do it without 'breaking the illusion' <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> 1. Although you may have an outdoor area, that doesnt stop you from having lots of machinery and wires and such around. An outdoor area can still look like it 'belongs' to a team.
Night time missions where there are spotlights to create scary contrast.
I can see how it would be a problem though. Somehow I dont see NS going together with forest settings. Mabye something like 'pitch black' where it is a white coloured desert with some man made buildings, and if a player goes too far from the mission area they die of hunger or heat exhaustion or something.
<!--QuoteBegin-Once Only+Jul 17 2005, 11:01 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Once Only @ Jul 17 2005, 11:01 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> 2. The vehicle 'breaks down' <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Nanites automatically repair and carry out operations, right? So if they were in the air they would repair a vehicle in an instant?
<!--QuoteBegin-Thaldarin+Jul 17 2005, 05:10 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Thaldarin @ Jul 17 2005, 05:10 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Once Only+Jul 17 2005, 11:01 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Once Only @ Jul 17 2005, 11:01 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> 2. The vehicle 'breaks down' <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Nanites automatically repair and carry out operations, right? So if they were in the air they would repair a vehicle in an instant? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> ehm... and whats the matter they cant repair buildings instantly?
like I stated somewhere before I would appreciate to have the classic ns maps unchanged for ns source and some outdoor maps in addition. outdoor maps could easily be created to be the pre- or sequel to an existing ns map. imagine how you get to the eclipse station by traveling through miles of dusty canyons, always avoiding caves because of the massive alien presence.
so make these maps as player friendly as possible there should be some more opportunities for mappers to decide, how they want the gameplay to work.
one mapper creating a pretty huge landscape might limit the equipment marines will be able to use aswell as abilities on the alien side.
just a 1:1 portation to the source engine wont work without the option to adjust gameplay related elements.
Outdoor maps can be done, you just have to keep the general claustrophobia motif. The canyon suggestion is an excellent example of this, and stick in some wind currents at the top of the map and hey presto, Aliens and JPs can't just pwn the map completely.
if someone wants to know how this might look, he should get himself a red faction 1 (referring to the ps2 version because I never played the slightly different pc version).
there were some nice canyons and some pretty, large, atmospheric caves. add some plants to the scene and you will have your map. think of ´jurassic park´.
Comments
- Hey Flayra, I'm bored, can I delete random entities from the code for no apparent reason at all?
- Sure man, have fun!
And I said 95% for a reason, but I should have said "most of them".
know what?
I REALLY dont know that. I cant even imagine.
but its a fact that there had some entities been removed that had not to. (uh what a tricky sentence <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->)
LOL. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I think you mean:
However, it is a fact that some entities were removed that did not have to be removed.
The HL engine is a bit messy, tangled, and not as straight forward as you'd believe it to be, so even seemingly harmless things can have unforseen consequences.
<!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
LOL. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I think you mean:
However, it is a fact that some entities were removed that did not have to be removed. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
*hides*
but you got the idea.
the should rather bring some of the scripting entities back so you can have little bit more freedom creating atmospheric elements. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Scripting entities, like...multi_managers, trigger_changetarget, trigger_relay, trigger_auto and NS's own entity, trigger_random?
I'm afraid they're already in there, there's nothing to 'bring back' unless I'm missing something vital.
Oh, well there was an info_goodmap but we took that out to give mappers a challenge. I mean, we don't want to make things <i>easy</i> do we?
Imagine a dimly lit forest with lamp-post-shaped towers 10 feet tall or so spread among the underbrush with electronics at the top glowing from the chemical heat of nanite production. Imagine these things glowing with the sputtering light of gas lanterns but with an eerie blue tinge. I think it could be pretty cool <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's exactly the thought I was having. So long as there is reason for it, outdoor areas could easily have plausible 'nanite pumps' ensuring a minimal level of nanite quantity in the air for sustaining whatever equipment or technology might be needed around the area.
Having them in a forest would need a good explaination of why they're there of course, but the full capabilities and role of nanites in the NS universe isn't a mapped set thing, for the sake of creative freedom you may as well put 'here be dragons' on such a point. We're not looking to build NS maps within a creative shell with fear of stepping over the line as it might not be 'real enough'. We should be looking to kick those walls down with vengeful force and exploring all ideas and possibilities, just so long as the atmosphere and character of NS remains. Who really cares if you can build outside or not, but if you can, preferably think up a reason for it (not that I did with Heras landing pad).
For example, ships may have nanite pumps on the outside to enable ship repair in space without having to leave the safety of the hull, allowing for wild uninhabited outdoor areas to have a nanite presence around the ships exterior.
Forests could have them as a means of powering transport gear around the area, or for whatever reason.
NS's universe is not meant to be shrinking, ala (___) (_) O o . , but very much so the opposite. And its up to us people, being the creators of NS's environments and settings, to be exploring these areas. We pull together all the assets of the game; sounds, models, textures, and gameplay, and shape them into the world that is Natural Selection. And there is never a good time to close off ideas.
NS's world and the assets at hand are clay. You can make whatever you wish with it, but in the end its made of simple clay. Some sculptures will not be as appealing as others, but never should fear of it not being accepted stop you from experimenting or else nothing will evolve.
Ramble over.
I miss that entity. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
i was thinking a forcefield of some kind would be neat looking in an outdoor map, creating a massive dome arround the playing field, which could be generated from a ship, or some type of device on the ground. the forcefield could be an excuse for the nanites staying within the area.
it could be pretty transparent, but have a pulsing glow, maybe a light orange.
1) How do you make it <b>feel</b> like NS
2) A number of the methods of transport available to the player pretty much allow them to go whereever they damnwell please; at what point do you prevent them from going any further than you want them and how do you do it without 'breaking the illusion'
the should rather bring some of the scripting entities back so you can have little bit more freedom creating atmospheric elements. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Scripting entities, like...multi_managers, trigger_changetarget, trigger_relay, trigger_auto and NS's own entity, trigger_random?
I'm afraid they're already in there, there's nothing to 'bring back' unless I'm missing something vital.
Oh, well there was an info_goodmap but we took that out to give mappers a challenge. I mean, we don't want to make things <i>easy</i> do we? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
- scripted_sequence
- airscripted_sequence
- monster_maker
just three examples.
Quotable quotes.
1) How do you make it <b>feel</b> like NS
2) A number of the methods of transport available to the player pretty much allow them to go whereever they damnwell please; at what point do you prevent them from going any further than you want them and how do you do it without 'breaking the illusion' <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
1. Although you may have an outdoor area, that doesnt stop you from having lots of machinery and wires and such around. An outdoor area can still look like it 'belongs' to a team.
Night time missions where there are spotlights to create scary contrast.
I can see how it would be a problem though. Somehow I dont see NS going together with forest settings. Mabye something like 'pitch black' where it is a white coloured desert with some man made buildings, and if a player goes too far from the mission area they die of hunger or heat exhaustion or something.
2. The vehicle 'breaks down' <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
A battle field type 'you are leaving the mission indicator'. For aliens they can mabye die too far from their bacterial support.
Nanites automatically repair and carry out operations, right? So if they were in the air they would repair a vehicle in an instant?
Nanites automatically repair and carry out operations, right? So if they were in the air they would repair a vehicle in an instant? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
ehm... and whats the matter they cant repair buildings instantly?
like I stated somewhere before I would appreciate to have the classic ns maps unchanged for ns source and some outdoor maps in addition. outdoor maps could easily be created to be the pre- or sequel to an existing ns map.
imagine how you get to the eclipse station by traveling through miles of dusty canyons, always avoiding caves because of the massive alien presence.
so make these maps as player friendly as possible there should be some more opportunities for mappers to decide, how they want the gameplay to work.
one mapper creating a pretty huge landscape might limit the equipment marines will be able to use aswell as abilities on the alien side.
just a 1:1 portation to the source engine wont work without the option to adjust gameplay related elements.
there were some nice canyons and some pretty, large, atmospheric caves.
add some plants to the scene and you will have your map.
think of ´jurassic park´.
"there is something moving in the grass..."