...'Pledge of Allegiance'? Mind explaning/writing out what that is? Hang on...
"I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands: one Nation under God, indivisible, With Liberty and Justice for all."
Are you SERIOUSLY telling me you have to say that before school every day?
<!--QuoteBegin-Depot+Aug 4 2005, 12:01 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Depot @ Aug 4 2005, 12:01 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Snidely+Aug 4 2005, 12:58 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Snidely @ Aug 4 2005, 12:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> So you don't learn about religion in school over there? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Unfortunately, some school districts have mandated the Pledge of Allegiance either not be said at day's beginning, or that it be modified to eliminate the words "under God" from it. Indeed it's a sad affair... <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> thats just stupid, as lolfighter said, and sniedely did, where i go to school, we have a class called religion, when i was smaller it told us what was in the bible, now we learn about other religions and their standpoint, when i was about to be cnfirmated we had some confirmation preparing classes with a priest coming and explaning what we should do and such (note nearly the whole school is christian, actually i think all are, theres just some jehovas witnesses.) also please note that even though the entire class said yes, we dont care **** about religion, neither does we care about evolution, in biology we are taught evolution, so as lolfigther said, you decide yourself what to believe in and what not to believe in
i do however have to say that the society we live in today, people dont really care how things came, just that they came
i just read merkabras post, did you say the plegde at the start of the day? that sounds like something they did in 1900 .
moultanoCreator of ns_shiva.Join Date: 2002-12-14Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
<!--QuoteBegin-Merkaba+Aug 4 2005, 12:05 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Merkaba @ Aug 4 2005, 12:05 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> ...'Pledge of Allegiance'? Mind explaning/writing out what that is? Hang on...
"I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands: one Nation under God, indivisible, With Liberty and Justice for all."
Are you SERIOUSLY telling me you have to say that before school every day? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The supreme court ruled that you can't be punished for refusing to say it, free speech and all, but yeah, kids say it every morning.
<!--QuoteBegin-Depot+Aug 4 2005, 11:41 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Depot @ Aug 4 2005, 11:41 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-reasa+Aug 4 2005, 12:39 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (reasa @ Aug 4 2005, 12:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Depot+Aug 4 2005, 11:38 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Depot @ Aug 4 2005, 11:38 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Why are you minimalizing ID? As I recall, philosophers as far back as Plato have reasoned that the complexity of nature shows grounds for believing in supernatural design. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Plato was a philosopher...not a biologist... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> And you are challenging his wisdom? I happen to agree with HIM on this subject also. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Incidently, this is a fallacious <a href='http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_authority' target='_blank'>appeal to authority</a>.
<!--QuoteBegin-Snidely+Aug 4 2005, 01:05 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Snidely @ Aug 4 2005, 01:05 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Depot+Aug 4 2005, 12:01 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Depot @ Aug 4 2005, 12:01 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Snidely+Aug 4 2005, 12:58 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Snidely @ Aug 4 2005, 12:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> So you don't learn about religion in school over there? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Unfortunately, some school districts have mandated the Pledge of Allegiance either not be said at day's beginning, or that it be modified to eliminate the words "under God" from it. Indeed it's a sad affair... <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's not what I mean. I was asking if you learn about the major religions, and what they're about? Y'know, what Christianity, Buddhism, Hinduism etc. all preach, a bit of their history, that sort of thing. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> As part of history perhaps, but that's it in public schools.
<!--QuoteBegin-Merkaba Aug 4 2005+ 01:05 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Merkaba Aug 4 2005 @ 01:05 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> ...'Pledge of Allegiance'? Mind explaning/writing out what that is? Hang on...
"I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands: one Nation under God, indivisible, With Liberty and Justice for all."
Are you SERIOUSLY telling me you have to say that before school every day? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> In my day yes. In present day not nearly as much, and as noted, it's frequently modified if it's done.
<!--QuoteBegin-moultano+Aug 4 2005, 12:10 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (moultano @ Aug 4 2005, 12:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Merkaba+Aug 4 2005, 12:05 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Merkaba @ Aug 4 2005, 12:05 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> ...'Pledge of Allegiance'? Mind explaning/writing out what that is? Hang on...
"I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands: one Nation under God, indivisible, With Liberty and Justice for all."
Are you SERIOUSLY telling me you have to say that before school every day? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The supreme court ruled that you can't be punished for refusing to say it, free speech and all, but yeah, kids say it every morning. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> lol america is screwed up place
I think I remember learning a little bit about a few religions in middle school history classes. I never had a class to learn about religion specifically, and nothing even slightly related to religion was ever brought up in any science class. I'm happy it went that way.
KungFuSquirrelBasher of MuttonsJoin Date: 2002-01-26Member: 103Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
<!--QuoteBegin-Merkaba+Aug 4 2005, 12:05 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Merkaba @ Aug 4 2005, 12:05 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Are you SERIOUSLY telling me you have to say that before school every day? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> My elementary school did for the first few grades. Might be less common now. But "under God" was indeed added as an anti-communist schtick in the cold war, and is not the original version.
Anywho. I'd take raw creationism over intelligent design. Even if there is debate over the scientific merits, at least there's religious texts giving a basis for where the ideas came and at least is honest about the underlying intent. As opposed to "well, that's pretty impressive. Don't you think someone or something would have had to have made it that way? Maybe? A bit?"
ID reminds me too much of Eddie Izzard's bit on Church of England in Dress to Kill.
I still hate that the concepts of creation and evolution have to be mutually exclusive.
<!--QuoteBegin-Snidely+Aug 4 2005, 01:10 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Snidely @ Aug 4 2005, 01:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Depot+Aug 4 2005, 11:41 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Depot @ Aug 4 2005, 11:41 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-reasa+Aug 4 2005, 12:39 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (reasa @ Aug 4 2005, 12:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Depot+Aug 4 2005, 11:38 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Depot @ Aug 4 2005, 11:38 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Why are you minimalizing ID? As I recall, philosophers as far back as Plato have reasoned that the complexity of nature shows grounds for believing in supernatural design. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Plato was a philosopher...not a biologist... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> And you are challenging his wisdom? I happen to agree with HIM on this subject also. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Incidently, this is an <a href='http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_authority' target='_blank'>appeal to authority</a>. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You really feel it is? Why?
<!--QuoteBegin-Metalcat Aug 4 2005+ 01:11 PM --></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Metalcat Aug 4 2005 @ 01:11 PM )</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> QUOTE (moultano @ Aug 4 2005, 12:10 PM) QUOTE (Merkaba @ Aug 4 2005, 12:05 PM) ...'Pledge of Allegiance'? Mind explaning/writing out what that is? Hang on...
"I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands: one Nation under God, indivisible, With Liberty and Justice for all."
Are you SERIOUSLY telling me you have to say that before school every day?
The supreme court ruled that you can't be punished for refusing to say it, free speech and all, but yeah, kids say it every morning.
lol america is screwed up place <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Really it's not Metalcat. I love the you ess uv aye and all it stands for!
I believe we had to recite the Lords prayer at the end of assembly in Middle School (up to the age of 12/13) but that was all. Something bugs me about repeatedly pledging allegence with my country, sounds more like brainwashing to me. At least the Lords prayer is universally valid and doesn't focus on one country.
It seemed that you were using Plato to back up your position, even though Plato isn't an authority in biology. From the link:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Sometimes, an appeal to authority is a logical fallacy. This is the case when a person presenting a position on a subject mentions some authority who also holds that position, but who is not an authority in that area. For instance, the statement "Arthur C. Clarke recently released a report showing it is necessary to floss three times daily" should not convince many people of anything about flossing, as Arthur C. Clarke is not an expert on dental hygiene. Much advertising relies on this logical fallacy; for example when Michael Winner promotes car insurance, despite having no expertise in the field of car insurance.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Depot+Aug 4 2005, 12:12 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Depot @ Aug 4 2005, 12:12 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Really it's not Metalcat. I love the you ess uv aye and all it stands for! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> i kinda hate what the USA stand for, :'(
<!--QuoteBegin-Snidely+Aug 4 2005, 01:16 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Snidely @ Aug 4 2005, 01:16 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It seemed that you were using Plato to back up your position, even though Plato isn't an authority in biology. From the link:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Sometimes, an appeal to authority is a logical fallacy. This is the case when a person presenting a position on a subject mentions some authority who also holds that position, but who is not an authority in that area. For instance, the statement "Arthur C. Clarke recently released a report showing it is necessary to floss three times daily" should not convince many people of anything about flossing, as Arthur C. Clarke is not an expert on dental hygiene. Much advertising relies on this logical fallacy; for example when Michael Winner promotes car insurance, despite having no expertise in the field of car insurance.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just sayin'. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> But just because he's not an authority of biology doesn't mean ID isn't a valid option for discussion, which is more or less what the reporter was saying about Bush in his article.
Back on subject, it could be considered that if ID is a possibility, it could be something as simple as God (or whoever) creating an equation, which led to the formation of planets and systems and evolution of life as we know it. If that were the case, then the equation is still going on seemingly as strongly as it ever has so it would seem pretty damn infallible to me. To say that evolution is a contradiction to Gods infallibility seems rather...close minded to me. Gotta break some eggs to make an omlette, etc.
<!--QuoteBegin-Metalcat+Aug 4 2005, 01:19 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Metalcat @ Aug 4 2005, 01:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Depot+Aug 4 2005, 12:12 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Depot @ Aug 4 2005, 12:12 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Really it's not Metalcat. I love the you ess uv aye and all it stands for! <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> i kinda hate what the USA stand for, :'( <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I can respect that, but I still love you, and your country. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
moultanoCreator of ns_shiva.Join Date: 2002-12-14Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
Regardless of the plausibility of Intelligent Design, there is one reason that it can never be considered science. You can not create an experiment whose outcome could disprove it. The most accurate way to think about science, is that it isn't in the business of proving things right. It is in the business of proving things wrong. Those things that it can't prove wrong after years and years of trying, science gradually accepts to be right.
Only read reasa's initial statement, and sad to say, it's wrong. There is a good bit of scientific data to support ID, unfortunately, when you see politicians, and even advocates of ID, pushing it into textbooks, etc., they generally only have half a brain, and use substantially less of it. ID does have a strong scientific merit behind it, people just need to stop with the whole "faith god whine" syndrome, and look at it sincerely as anything else. Goodness, I know postmodernism has an inherent clause to hate all things Christianity, but some puppets/sheep/blind followers still continue to surprise me at the assumptions and blatan acceptance of a certain worldview because it has been spoonfed.
<!--QuoteBegin-moultano+Aug 4 2005, 12:32 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (moultano @ Aug 4 2005, 12:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Regardless of the plausibility of Intelligent Design, there is one reason that it can never be considered science. You can not create an experiment whose outcome could disprove it. The most accurate way to think about science, is that it isn't in the business of proving things right. It is in the business of proving things wrong. Those things that it can't prove wrong after years and years of trying, science gradually accepts to be right. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> i say its damn easy to disprove it, you just look at the world, does a new planet suddenly pop up? no, it comes from the result of supernovas
<!--QuoteBegin-radforChrist+Aug 4 2005, 01:33 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (radforChrist @ Aug 4 2005, 01:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Only read reasa's initial statement, and sad to say, it's wrong. There is a good bit of scientific data to support ID, unfortunately, when you see politicians, and even advocates of ID, pushing it into textbooks, etc., they generally only have half a brain, and use substantially less of it. ID does have a strong scientific merit behind it, people just need to stop with the whole "faith god whine" syndrome, and look at it sincerely as anything else. Goodness, I know postmodernism has an inherent clause to hate all things Christianity, but some puppets/sheep/blind followers still continue to surprise me at the assumptions and blatan acceptance of a certain worldview because it has been spoonfed.
that is all. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> QFT! You are my hero, meh!
<!--QuoteBegin-radforChrist+Aug 4 2005, 12:33 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (radforChrist @ Aug 4 2005, 12:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Only read reasa's initial statement, and sad to say, it's wrong. There is a good bit of scientific data to support ID <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Umm you found proof that God or some other creator exists?
moultanoCreator of ns_shiva.Join Date: 2002-12-14Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
<!--QuoteBegin-radforChrist+Aug 4 2005, 12:33 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (radforChrist @ Aug 4 2005, 12:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Only read reasa's initial statement, and sad to say, it's wrong. There is a good bit of scientific data to support ID, unfortunately, when you see politicians, and even advocates of ID, pushing it into textbooks, etc., they generally only have half a brain, and use substantially less of it. ID does have a strong scientific merit behind it, people just need to stop with the whole "faith god whine" syndrome, and look at it sincerely as anything else. Goodness, I know postmodernism has an inherent clause to hate all things Christianity, but some puppets/sheep/blind followers still continue to surprise me at the assumptions and blatan acceptance of a certain worldview because it has been spoonfed.
that is all. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> My, you must be a veritable intellectual juggernaut to take on the entire history of biology so crassly. Whence come you by this knowledge?
<!--QuoteBegin-Black Mage+Aug 4 2005, 12:39 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Black Mage @ Aug 4 2005, 12:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> i have an idea force schools to teach evolution and intelligent design force churches to do the same
everyone wins
edit: rad4c, i wish to see this scientific data of yours. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> i hereby invite you to Denmark :/
Sorry, but I find it frustrating when I have spent 10 years investigating, researching, and experiencing my relationship with God with History, Archeology, Psychology, Science, Biology, Geography, the Fossil Record, the Word of God, and much discussion with Christians, athiests, other world religions, etc. only to see a bunch of yuppies who read a really intelligent sounding book, or heard some guy say something, or repeat what their friends believe, or set out to disprove God (how close minded when you begin a journey with a certain outcome already prescribed). Then, these people get in a thread like this, and feel so "enlightened" when they blow something they don't/won't understand up into a science vs. God debate, and go to sleep at night thinking they've been well educated.
I've spent the better part of my Christian life trying to fully understand and comprehend the seeming "incompatible" of Science and God, and yet some kid who had a college trained science teacher thinks the world view he's been pushed it as infallible and perfect. When, this smae world view teaches there are no absolutes, yet they use an absolute to claim such a thing. And we Christians contradict ourselves....
Heh. Don't <i>ever</i> call me close minded, because compared to you, I'm new age open.
<!--QuoteBegin-radforChrist+Aug 4 2005, 12:33 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (radforChrist @ Aug 4 2005, 12:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Only read reasa's initial statement, and sad to say, it's wrong. There is a good bit of scientific data to support ID, unfortunately, when you see politicians, and even advocates of ID, pushing it into textbooks, etc., they generally only have half a brain, and use substantially less of it. ID does have a strong scientific merit behind it, people just need to stop with the whole "faith god whine" syndrome, and look at it sincerely as anything else. Goodness, I know postmodernism has an inherent clause to hate all things Christianity, but some puppets/sheep/blind followers still continue to surprise me at the assumptions and blatan acceptance of a certain worldview because it has been spoonfed.
that is all. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Until I see an experiment that can prove ID as a valid SCIENTIFIC theory, ID cannot have any strong scientific merit at all. Evolution has experiments and findings that thorroughly support it. All the evidence about ID that I read about so far is just hear say and like "Look at X, its complex so it has got to be ID". It's like as if saying "Nature is too stupid, only something smarter than nature can do this". And the problem with ID is that to prove ID you have to ultimately prove that there is a God. And that is whole other minefield.
People have taken years, even decades to get their findings and theories scruitinized by the scientific community and THEN only does it seem worthwhile to put it in the school textbooks. Why can't ID go through this same process before being put in the school system? Its like the newest finding that there is a tenth planet in our solar system. Does that change the school's textbook immediatly? No. It will take a few years to prove it beyond a doubt before that.
There is a difference between theological/philosophical thinking and FACTS. That was why Science is there for. If not we be still be practicing that old notion that the shape of your head shows what kind of person you are and that the letting of blood is good to calm active people.
What I wonder, is why it is so hard for people to even consider that life is to complex to have happend by just random chance and accident, and why anyone who thinks that way is immediately mocked. Most people know my stand so you can go ahead and commence the mocking and flaming since that's where these threads usually end up.
<!--QuoteBegin-Black Mage+Aug 4 2005, 12:48 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Black Mage @ Aug 4 2005, 12:48 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> what makes me laugh is that people seem to think that evolution means "there is no god"
what if we evolved by the hand of god? or we evolved while god was sitting around chillin' with his angels? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> oh so your saying hes the programmer? he programmed the entire univers, made suns explode creating new suns, made solar system happen, created evolution? well thats just stupid, also why dont god pick new messengers? he stopped doing that 2005 years ago :/
Comments
"I pledge allegiance to the Flag
of the United States of America,
and to the Republic for which it stands:
one Nation under God, indivisible,
With Liberty and Justice for all."
Are you SERIOUSLY telling me you have to say that before school every day?
Unfortunately, some school districts have mandated the Pledge of Allegiance either not be said at day's beginning, or that it be modified to eliminate the words "under God" from it. Indeed it's a sad affair... <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
thats just stupid, as lolfighter said, and sniedely did, where i go to school, we have a class called religion, when i was smaller it told us what was in the bible, now we learn about other religions and their standpoint, when i was about to be cnfirmated we had some confirmation preparing classes with a priest coming and explaning what we should do and such (note nearly the whole school is christian, actually i think all are, theres just some jehovas witnesses.) also please note that even though the entire class said yes, we dont care **** about religion, neither does we care about evolution, in biology we are taught evolution, so as lolfigther said, you decide yourself what to believe in and what not to believe in
i do however have to say that the society we live in today, people dont really care how things came, just that they came
i just read merkabras post, did you say the plegde at the start of the day? that sounds like something they did in 1900 .
"I pledge allegiance to the Flag
of the United States of America,
and to the Republic for which it stands:
one Nation under God, indivisible,
With Liberty and Justice for all."
Are you SERIOUSLY telling me you have to say that before school every day? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
The supreme court ruled that you can't be punished for refusing to say it, free speech and all, but yeah, kids say it every morning.
Plato was a philosopher...not a biologist... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And you are challenging his wisdom? I happen to agree with HIM on this subject also. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Incidently, this is a fallacious <a href='http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_authority' target='_blank'>appeal to authority</a>.
Unfortunately, some school districts have mandated the Pledge of Allegiance either not be said at day's beginning, or that it be modified to eliminate the words "under God" from it. Indeed it's a sad affair... <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's not what I mean. I was asking if you learn about the major religions, and what they're about? Y'know, what Christianity, Buddhism, Hinduism etc. all preach, a bit of their history, that sort of thing. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
As part of history perhaps, but that's it in public schools.
<!--QuoteBegin-Merkaba Aug 4 2005+ 01:05 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Merkaba Aug 4 2005 @ 01:05 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
...'Pledge of Allegiance'? Mind explaning/writing out what that is? Hang on...
"I pledge allegiance to the Flag
of the United States of America,
and to the Republic for which it stands:
one Nation under God, indivisible,
With Liberty and Justice for all."
Are you SERIOUSLY telling me you have to say that before school every day? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In my day yes. In present day not nearly as much, and as noted, it's frequently modified if it's done.
"I pledge allegiance to the Flag
of the United States of America,
and to the Republic for which it stands:
one Nation under God, indivisible,
With Liberty and Justice for all."
Are you SERIOUSLY telling me you have to say that before school every day? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The supreme court ruled that you can't be punished for refusing to say it, free speech and all, but yeah, kids say it every morning. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
lol america is screwed up place
My elementary school did for the first few grades. Might be less common now. But "under God" was indeed added as an anti-communist schtick in the cold war, and is not the original version.
Anywho. I'd take raw creationism over intelligent design. Even if there is debate over the scientific merits, at least there's religious texts giving a basis for where the ideas came and at least is honest about the underlying intent. As opposed to "well, that's pretty impressive. Don't you think someone or something would have had to have made it that way? Maybe? A bit?"
ID reminds me too much of Eddie Izzard's bit on Church of England in Dress to Kill.
I still hate that the concepts of creation and evolution have to be mutually exclusive.
Plato was a philosopher...not a biologist... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And you are challenging his wisdom? I happen to agree with HIM on this subject also. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Incidently, this is an <a href='http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_authority' target='_blank'>appeal to authority</a>. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You really feel it is? Why?
<!--QuoteBegin-Metalcat Aug 4 2005+ 01:11 PM --></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Metalcat Aug 4 2005 @ 01:11 PM )</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
QUOTE (moultano @ Aug 4 2005, 12:10 PM)
QUOTE (Merkaba @ Aug 4 2005, 12:05 PM)
...'Pledge of Allegiance'? Mind explaning/writing out what that is? Hang on...
"I pledge allegiance to the Flag
of the United States of America,
and to the Republic for which it stands:
one Nation under God, indivisible,
With Liberty and Justice for all."
Are you SERIOUSLY telling me you have to say that before school every day?
The supreme court ruled that you can't be punished for refusing to say it, free speech and all, but yeah, kids say it every morning.
lol america is screwed up place <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Really it's not Metalcat. I love the you ess uv aye and all it stands for!
Merkaba, the anti-patriot.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Sometimes, an appeal to authority is a logical fallacy. This is the case when a person presenting a position on a subject mentions some authority who also holds that position, but who is not an authority in that area. For instance, the statement "Arthur C. Clarke recently released a report showing it is necessary to floss three times daily" should not convince many people of anything about flossing, as Arthur C. Clarke is not an expert on dental hygiene. Much advertising relies on this logical fallacy; for example when Michael Winner promotes car insurance, despite having no expertise in the field of car insurance.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just sayin'.
Really it's not Metalcat. I love the you ess uv aye and all it stands for! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
i kinda hate what the USA stand for, :'(
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Sometimes, an appeal to authority is a logical fallacy. This is the case when a person presenting a position on a subject mentions some authority who also holds that position, but who is not an authority in that area. For instance, the statement "Arthur C. Clarke recently released a report showing it is necessary to floss three times daily" should not convince many people of anything about flossing, as Arthur C. Clarke is not an expert on dental hygiene. Much advertising relies on this logical fallacy; for example when Michael Winner promotes car insurance, despite having no expertise in the field of car insurance.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just sayin'. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
But just because he's not an authority of biology doesn't mean ID isn't a valid option for discussion, which is more or less what the reporter was saying about Bush in his article.
Really it's not Metalcat. I love the you ess uv aye and all it stands for! <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i kinda hate what the USA stand for, :'( <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can respect that, but I still love you, and your country. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
that is all.
i say its damn easy to disprove it, you just look at the world, does a new planet suddenly pop up? no, it comes from the result of supernovas
that is all. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
QFT! You are my hero, meh!
Umm you found proof that God or some other creator exists?
that is all. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
My, you must be a veritable intellectual juggernaut to take on the entire history of biology so crassly. Whence come you by this knowledge?
force schools to teach evolution and intelligent design
force churches to do the same
everyone wins
edit: rad4c, i wish to see this scientific data of yours.
force schools to teach evolution and intelligent design
force churches to do the same
everyone wins
edit: rad4c, i wish to see this scientific data of yours. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
i hereby invite you to Denmark :/
I've spent the better part of my Christian life trying to fully understand and comprehend the seeming "incompatible" of Science and God, and yet some kid who had a college trained science teacher thinks the world view he's been pushed it as infallible and perfect. When, this smae world view teaches there are no absolutes, yet they use an absolute to claim such a thing. And we Christians contradict ourselves....
Heh. Don't <i>ever</i> call me close minded, because compared to you, I'm new age open.
/shrug
that is all. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Until I see an experiment that can prove ID as a valid SCIENTIFIC theory, ID cannot have any strong scientific merit at all. Evolution has experiments and findings that thorroughly support it. All the evidence about ID that I read about so far is just hear say and like "Look at X, its complex so it has got to be ID". It's like as if saying "Nature is too stupid, only something smarter than nature can do this". And the problem with ID is that to prove ID you have to ultimately prove that there is a God. And that is whole other minefield.
People have taken years, even decades to get their findings and theories scruitinized by the scientific community and THEN only does it seem worthwhile to put it in the school textbooks. Why can't ID go through this same process before being put in the school system? Its like the newest finding that there is a tenth planet in our solar system. Does that change the school's textbook immediatly? No. It will take a few years to prove it beyond a doubt before that.
There is a difference between theological/philosophical thinking and FACTS. That was why Science is there for. If not we be still be practicing that old notion that the shape of your head shows what kind of person you are and that the letting of blood is good to calm active people.
what if we evolved by the hand of god? or we evolved while god was sitting around chillin' with his angels?
metalcat: buy me tickets, i'll be there in a flash. i demand out of this hellhole called kansas
Seconded
what if we evolved by the hand of god? or we evolved while god was sitting around chillin' with his angels? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
oh so your saying hes the programmer? he programmed the entire univers, made suns explode creating new suns, made solar system happen, created evolution? well thats just stupid, also why dont god pick new messengers? he stopped doing that 2005 years ago :/