There are various plugins around intended to balance or randomize (Which contrary to popular belief, is not always balanced) teams. None of them work very well, simply because skill is not something you can measure very well. I've played games where the bottom player was instrumental to winning, by dropping/capping rts, healing, welding, building, etc; all the grunt work. Conversely, I've seen players rack up a high K:D ratio not because they were good, but because they had a hmg/sg and were always camping behind their teammates, stealing their klls. There will always be a skill inequality on both teams, and this is true for any game.
<!--quoteo(post=1574782:date=Nov 8 2006, 06:07 PM:name=SpaceJesus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SpaceJesus @ Nov 8 2006, 06:07 PM) [snapback]1574782[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> You cannot balance NS for 6v6 aswell as 12v12 - the current game mechanics simply don't allow it - please just shut the hell up for once and bother to look at the game as a whole. Publics are not the meaning of life, nor are they the most important part of the game.
edit: FYI it <b>IS </b>working - 3.1 was the most balanced version to date. Get a clue. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you can't get the point in the post don't reply. Just makes you look silly.
SmoodCroozn: Here's a challenge then. Make a team with 6 pubbers of your choice, challenge any established clan, and see what happens. I won't apologize for any elitism, because it's well-justified; the level of play in competitive NS is higher than any pub you can find at the moment. If you doubt this, get on #findnsscrims on Gamesurge, and ask to spec scrims when they happen.
<!--quoteo(post=1574789:date=Nov 8 2006, 06:16 PM:name=Underwhelmed)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Underwhelmed @ Nov 8 2006, 06:16 PM) [snapback]1574789[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> There are various plugins around intended to balance or randomize (Which contrary to popular belief, is not always balanced) teams. None of them work very well, simply because skill is not something you can measure very well. I've played games where the bottom player was instrumental to winning, by dropping/capping rts, healing, welding, building, etc; all the grunt work. Conversely, I've seen players rack up a high K:D ratio not because they were good, but because they had a hmg/sg and were always camping behind their teammates, stealing their klls. There will always be a skill inequality on both teams, and this is true for any game. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree that games can't (nor shouldn't) be balanced around -edit- individual -edit- player skill.
The purpose of my post is to point out what I see as flaws in the current NS, which then the devs may or may not build NS2 considering the feedback. Obviously, different people will give different feedback, the more the better. Just because I disagree with a feature in the game it doesn't mean it is going to be changed or that I am demanding it to be changed. Its just me voicing my opinion.
My issue is that the current game is accounting for skill where it shouldn't be. The 42-5 score players mentioned above gain a lot of res for their team, which makes his team tech faster, and consequently, kill more, tech more, kill even more, etc. This leads to quick, one sided games. In the other hand, the rest of his team might not be better than the rest of the alien team, but now that they have better upgrades, they are killing more than being killed.
If RFK didn't exist, scores wouldn't matter. Suicidal rushes wouldn't either. One team might not have the best aimers, but they are more organized, tech faster, get the more useful upgrades first, and turn the table. The game should reward Team Skill, not individual skill.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Make a team with 6 pubbers of your choice, challenge any established clan, and see what happens.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Whats that supposed to prove? That a random group of pubers isn't as good as an elite group of clanners who play together all the time? Well duh. But that says nothing about clanners knowing more than pubers.
Edit: Besides which, I feel inclined to point out that when you're playing 6v6 T-Mode the strategies are alot different than when you're playing 12v12 non-T-Mode.
Detheron, I'd QFT you're entire post, but this line takes up less space.
The main function RFK has these days - apart from making organised matches slightly random when it comes to fade/hive timing - is to balance play in large pubs. See the more players the greater the advante of the marine team. Fades and hives gets dropped later but marines still have the same resources and thus the same time untill a1, phase tech, AA etc. One way of helping this is RFK.
Res for Kills helps in the way that even though normal res flow is very slow in large alien teams a good player will still be able to amass enough res to go lerk, fade or drop the chambers or hive. Without RFK that hive will be dropped at 10 minutes instead of 5 or 6, and that means a more or less certain loss most rounds. It is further balanced since the larger the servers the more "easy" marines there are to feed the alien players. RFK before the hive is dropped in 6v6 will obviously be more restricted than in 10v10 game.
So to summarize, RFK is what makes large player numbers viable, and should as such not be considered an attempt of the vocal clanner PT community to monopolize the game and force only 6v6 mp_tournamentmode 1 matches to be played.
Good discussion everyone. There's plenty I agree with and disagree with here.
I think I've come up with a design that will make both sides balanced at all game sizes yet preserves the sides' unique differences as well. This is one of the few aspects of the game that we are going to keep as close to our chest for as long as possible, for it's taken me years to figure out yet is easily duplicated and I don't want someone beating us to the punch.
You can be sure both sides are going to remain unique and the game will remain "NS", that's for sure.
Fair enough. I've got faith in ya, Flayra. And we know these things take time.
I've been here since the beginning and 3.1 seems to be the most fun and balanced build yet... in big or small games.
Seems like the only issue with NS now is how to handle low skill/newbie players, and 3.2 goes a looong way in making the game more intuitive so they'll learn more quickly. So I see you guys are on the ball.
<!--quoteo(post=1574790:date=Nov 8 2006, 06:16 PM:name=Detheron)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Detheron @ Nov 8 2006, 06:16 PM) [snapback]1574790[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> If you can't get the point in the post don't reply. Just makes you look silly. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I believe the point that youre failiing to comprehend is that no one agrees with your "critique" because it is about as well founded as a house built on sand.
Okay time for some constructive input I guess - here's what I see as the biggest issues with NS :
<b>Balance not correctly scaled between low-population and high-population games/servers</b> (RFK was a good attempt to rectify this, however it still needs tweaking, which I'm afraid I don't think is likely)
<b>Timeframe/Balance rollercoaster</b> Early game marines dominate, midgame is questionable, late game aliens dominate. This needs to be changed in my opinion - both teams should be equally balanced the whole way through the game.
<b>Alien mid-game Fade reliance</b> This is one of the largest flaws in the game in my opinion - unfortunately I have no bright ideas how to solve it, but you simply lose if you don't have a fade up around 4-5 minutes, this is bad. This also ties in with one of Detheron's earlier points - the game shouldn't be balanced around individual player skill - as fading is.
edit : and no Detheron, I don't agree with the majority of your points - especially this one: <!--QuoteBegin-Detheron+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Detheron)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"They intend to turn NS2 into a business. That means they can't cater to a small, very specific playerbase, (such as clanners) but rather as many different players as possible."<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's not a business decision - in my eyes thats a cop-out. If UWE decides to make the game with the aim of selling as many copies as possible, instead of aiming to make a great game which people will want to buy, because it's a great game - they'll end up crashing and burning and I suspect that most people will realise this. Anyway, at the end of the day "clanners" are not asking for anything drastic, just a few changes here and there, most recognise that large changes to the game mechanics at this point post-release are extremely unlikely.
<!--quoteo(post=1574821:date=Nov 8 2006, 11:47 AM:name=tjosan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tjosan @ Nov 8 2006, 11:47 AM) [snapback]1574821[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> The main function RFK has these days - apart from making organised matches slightly random when it comes to fade/hive timing - is to balance play in large pubs. See the more players the greater the advante of the marine team. Fades and hives gets dropped later but marines still have the same resources and thus the same time untill a1, phase tech, AA etc. One way of helping this is RFK.
Res for Kills helps in the way that even though normal res flow is very slow in large alien teams a good player will still be able to amass enough res to go lerk, fade or drop the chambers or hive. Without RFK that hive will be dropped at 10 minutes instead of 5 or 6, and that means a more or less certain loss most rounds. It is further balanced since the larger the servers the more "easy" marines there are to feed the alien players. RFK before the hive is dropped in 6v6 will obviously be more restricted than in 10v10 game.
So to summarize, RFK is what makes large player numbers viable, and should as such not be considered an attempt of the vocal clanner PT community to monopolize the game and force only 6v6 mp_tournamentmode 1 matches to be played.
Thank you for your time <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->As much as RFK helps the average 22-17 player, it helps the 34-3 player EXCEEDINGLY more. If we need more res to flow around, then find a way where everyone benefits the exact SAME AMOUNT. Don't have a feature where clanners obviously get a higher advantage than a regular player. It's as if we had RTs give a clanner 2 res for everyone 1 res it gives to a normal player - ridiculous.
If you need res to scale with larger games, then do exactly that: make RTs pump more juice. The way RFK works is that it relies on individual skill, not a team effort.
Another thing I'd like to point out is the so-called, "roles" in this game. A long time ago, I was fed with some BS that marines are all about teamwork, while aliens are supposed to be solo workers. The reality is that this is the exact backwards of what happens today.
Marine teamwork? What is this? Bringing another marine with you to go somewhere? How is that no different than bringing a skulk with you or rather, bringing another guy with you in COUNTER-STRIKE? Another gun aiming at your target is teamwork?
Aliens going solo? Then why do we need skulks to parasite marines for us? Why do we ask for heal from gorges? Why do we need lerks to umbra our onoses?
The biggest lie in NS has been revealed.
The biggest two changes in NS, brought up by clanners, have coincidentally helped them the most: blink-fades and RFK. Notice how blink-fades can be used more effectively by clanners and how RFK helps those elite players in pub games the most. What I'm asking for is some changes that help the rest of us - the pubbers, rather than going down this path of elitism.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I believe the point that youre failiing to comprehend is that no one agrees with your "critique" because it is about as well founded as a house built on sand.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I guess I must be a "no one" then.
Is it a competition between the players on the same team?! Hell, seems like I've been playing the wrong game since october 2002.
I thought you meant "balance" in the context of the two teams being equally able to compete, not in the way that everyone regardless of skill level should be able to do everything as well.
Well, in clan games, I assume skill levels are more tightened, but in pub play, especially in larger games, this isn't the case.
A few good players will stand out very clearly from the masses and will continue to do so because they gain a larger advantage from RFK. I don't think similar skill levels in pub play will ever be possible, unless you have the same pool of players playing again and again.
<!--quoteo(post=1574862:date=Nov 8 2006, 10:12 PM:name=ZiGGY)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ZiGGY @ Nov 8 2006, 10:12 PM) [snapback]1574862[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I believe the point that youre failiing to comprehend is that no one agrees with your "critique" because it is about as well founded as a house built on sand. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you read the entire topic you will see that your statement is false.
And the post you quoted was directed at Space Jesus because he couldn't understand that this is not a topic saying how to balance NS1. NS1 is sorta balanced in its own way. This topic brings up points to be considered when building a brand new game, such as NS2.
<!--quoteo(post=1574863:date=Nov 8 2006, 10:16 PM:name=SpaceJesus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SpaceJesus @ Nov 8 2006, 10:16 PM) [snapback]1574863[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> That's not a business decision - in my eyes thats a cop-out. If UWE decides to make the game with the aim of selling as many copies as possible, instead of aiming to make a great game which people will want to buy, because it's a great game - they'll end up crashing and burning and I suspect that most people will realise this. Anyway, at the end of the day "clanners" are not asking for anything drastic, just a few changes here and there, most recognise that large changes to the game mechanics at this point post-release are extremely unlikely. In my opinion the very fact that you admittedly haven't played in a competetive environment implies that you have a fairly narrow-minded view of the situation. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lets not consider everything as Black and White here. You clearly understood my point, yet you are taking it to the extreme just to make the argument flawed. This isn't about dumbing the game down. This is about making it fun for more than just 12-16 player servers. More fun for newcomers as well. Not just experienced people who practice it a few hours every day.
No matter how good, creative, or carefully thought-out a game is, people will quit playing it sooner or later. Some will get bored, others will find a game which attracts them more, others simply won't have the time to play they used to.
If the game isn't very attractive to newcomers, they will eventually lose more people than they gain, and the community will wither. If you make the game attractive to newbies, the community grows, and the game is kept on development for a longer time.
-Edit- Also, nowhere in my post I admitted to never have played in a competitive enviroment. I couldn't say that, because I did it for 18 months in 2.0 /early 3.0. My clan disbanded around then and I never bothered to play NS seriously again.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So to summarize, RFK is what makes large player numbers viable<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Large numbers of players were viable before R4K was introduced. I know, I played in a whole lot of games with 24+ players. What happened was that the res model for aliens was changed and so gorges no longer got the lion's share of the res as they did in 1.04, and for some reason that currently eludes the devs thought r4k was necessary.
BadMouthIt ceases to be exclusive when you can have a custom member titlJoin Date: 2004-05-21Member: 28815Members
I think R4K is pretty acceptable. I mean, if you're good, you should at least get some sort of bonus right? But on the other hand, maybe R4K may be a bit too muc at this point in time. I think they should keep it, but maybe just rework it.
This is not a flaw of the game itself, but rather map design. Imagine a square. In one corner you have the Marine Start, in the other 3, hives. I'm not saying that all maps should or are designed that way, just keep that image in your head a little and you will see my point.
The best hive to spawn is usually the hive in the middle, because you can quickly connect to the other 2 hives from it. If you spawn in one of the other hives, you will be close to one hive and very far away from the other. Maps such as ns_caged comes to mind. It is a pretty big walk from Generator to Sewer, probably twice as much if Ventilation is locked down. If you spawn in the middle hive and a 'corner' hive gets locked down, you still have the other one pretty close to you, and very far away from marines. If you spawn in one of the other 2 hives, you only have one viable option to expand into. If the middle hive gets locked down, the game just became a lot harder than the former scenario. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, I had an interesting idea... most NS maps feel a little "flat" sure, there are different levels, ledges, floors, ramps, height, etc... but marines will never start *under* a hive (ie. having to fight their way *up* a map, instead of across), and etc. I dunno where I'm going with this. *Shrug*
That's a game issue with the way the commander view works - hopefully it will be doable in NS2 <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
Although dropping speed usually > running speed, so marines main advantage rapidly diminishes.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I mean, if you're good, you should at least get some sort of bonus right? <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Your bonus is that the enemy is dead and you are not. You do not need an additional bonus that just makes it easier for you to get more bonuses.
<!--quoteo(post=1574936:date=Nov 9 2006, 12:55 AM:name=SkulkBait)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SkulkBait @ Nov 9 2006, 12:55 AM) [snapback]1574936[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Your bonus is that the enemy is dead and you are not. You do not need an additional bonus that just makes it easier for you to get more bonuses. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Before the RFK discussion goes any further, I'd like to make it clear to anyone ill-informed, that the RFK system currently stands as a randomised +1-3 res bonus for each kill, regardless of class or weapon.
RFK creates a snowball effect just because a good player is on the team? Are you kidding me? It's the fact that the player is BETTER THAN YOUR ENTIRE TEAM is what creates the snowball effect for the respective team, not the RFK.
Pubbers are attracted to games by how much fun they are (coolness, graphics, atmosphere, gameplay, etc). Competitive players are attracted to games based on how much fun they are <b>as a function of the game's competitive viability</b> and to a lesser extent the pubber-esque type of fun (mainly the gameplay and coolness). <u>It is entirely possible to have both.</u> Why do you think so many people play CS? Hint: it's not because it's "easy"
Then don't have a resource system that helps the average player 10%, while it helps a skilled player 200%. If you need more res in larger games, simply do that: get towers to make more juice.
As Skulkbait said: Your bonus is that you are alive and your target isn't. Keep skill and resources mutually exclusive - at least in ns mode.
I'm so glad james decided to take over my argument <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> And CS does have a system which rewards skilled players much more than new players - its called recoil/aim.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Oh so now we shouldn't reward skill?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> As I said, your reward is that you kill your enemy before he kills you. As someone who gets killed a whole hell of a lot, trust me, its plenty. R4K IS the snowball effect. I don't know how long you've been playing (longer than me, judging by your member #), but I don't remember any snowball effect before R4K. Multi-hour games would not have been nearly as common if there was. The worst part is that R4K does not reward superior tactics, strategy, or teamwork. Instead it rewards your ability to twitch the mouse faster and more accurately, a skill which is already its own reward.
<!--quoteo(post=1574988:date=Nov 8 2006, 10:25 PM:name=SkulkBait)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SkulkBait @ Nov 8 2006, 10:25 PM) [snapback]1574988[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> As I said, your reward is that you kill your enemy before he kills you. As someone who gets killed a whole hell of a lot, trust me, its plenty. R4K IS the snowball effect. I don't know how long you've been playing (longer than me, judging by your member #), but I don't remember any snowball effect before R4K. Multi-hour games would not have been nearly as common if there was. The worst part is that R4K does not reward superior tactics, strategy, or teamwork. Instead it rewards your ability to twitch the mouse faster and more accurately, a skill which is already its own reward. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> R4K is seriously minor to the point it is completely beyond me how people can be so quick to point fingers at it. Maybe in a giant nubpub you've seen some player kill a bunch of bad marines and go 2 minute fade. R4K really only has a noticeable impact on the alien team, and removing it from the aliens would hurt them quite a bit. It's been a while since I've played but even if you keep your nodes your fade will still be late if he doesn't get at least a kill or two.
R4K is directly attached to getting a kill. Therefore, superior tactics and aim are rewarded with R4K. This is especially pertinent for aliens, due to the difficulty of getting kills compared to marines; the current alien res distribution system also.
You are making an enormous deal out of a minor part of gameplay that would actually cripple the alien team if removed. This is where someone suggests "keep R4K for aliens only", and at that point, I simply don't even care, because R4K has a minuscule effect on the marine team.
RFK isn't bad for the current NS game, in fact, it is needed. What we are trying to say is that we would like to see RFK scrapped from NS 2 (not NS1, NS2) with a superior Resource Distribution System being put in place to compensate.
People trash talk CS all the time, but few actually realized how close we actually are to being another CS clone. RFK rewards a deathmatch/rambo style of gameplay instead of strategic teamplay, and such concept is not something the entire player base feels comfortable with.
For the last time, I'm not talking about NS 1 here. I'm not asking to see it removed from NS 1. I'm asking to receive a system in NS2 where RFK won't be needed - or present. Is that really a radical concept?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Oh so now we shouldn't reward skill? Why don't we just roll a pair of dice every time a marine tries to kill an alien, and vice versa?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You are avoiding the subject. They said it not once, not twice, but three times that your reward is that you are alive and your enemy isnt. In fact, you read it every time. Why are you taking what other people say to an extreme just to ridicularize them, instead of making an intelligent post about why you feel that systems in a team-based game which reward players individually are good for the future of NS and should be implemented in NS2?
Comments
You cannot balance NS for 6v6 aswell as 12v12 - the current game mechanics simply don't allow it - please just shut the hell up for once and bother to look at the game as a whole. Publics are not the meaning of life, nor are they the most important part of the game.
edit: FYI it <b>IS </b>working - 3.1 was the most balanced version to date. Get a clue.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you can't get the point in the post don't reply. Just makes you look silly.
There are various plugins around intended to balance or randomize (Which contrary to popular belief, is not always balanced) teams. None of them work very well, simply because skill is not something you can measure very well. I've played games where the bottom player was instrumental to winning, by dropping/capping rts, healing, welding, building, etc; all the grunt work. Conversely, I've seen players rack up a high K:D ratio not because they were good, but because they had a hmg/sg and were always camping behind their teammates, stealing their klls. There will always be a skill inequality on both teams, and this is true for any game.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree that games can't (nor shouldn't) be balanced around -edit- individual -edit- player skill.
The purpose of my post is to point out what I see as flaws in the current NS, which then the devs may or may not build NS2 considering the feedback. Obviously, different people will give different feedback, the more the better. Just because I disagree with a feature in the game it doesn't mean it is going to be changed or that I am demanding it to be changed. Its just me voicing my opinion.
My issue is that the current game is accounting for skill where it shouldn't be. The 42-5 score players mentioned above gain a lot of res for their team, which makes his team tech faster, and consequently, kill more, tech more, kill even more, etc. This leads to quick, one sided games. In the other hand, the rest of his team might not be better than the rest of the alien team, but now that they have better upgrades, they are killing more than being killed.
If RFK didn't exist, scores wouldn't matter. Suicidal rushes wouldn't either. One team might not have the best aimers, but they are more organized, tech faster, get the more useful upgrades first, and turn the table. The game should reward Team Skill, not individual skill.
Whats that supposed to prove? That a random group of pubers isn't as good as an elite group of clanners who play together all the time? Well duh. But that says nothing about clanners knowing more than pubers.
Edit: Besides which, I feel inclined to point out that when you're playing 6v6 T-Mode the strategies are alot different than when you're playing 12v12 non-T-Mode.
Detheron, I'd QFT you're entire post, but this line takes up less space.
My guess is that people think the game is not skillful enough if you can go 30-2 and still lose the match.
Res for Kills helps in the way that even though normal res flow is very slow in large alien teams a good player will still be able to amass enough res to go lerk, fade or drop the chambers or hive. Without RFK that hive will be dropped at 10 minutes instead of 5 or 6, and that means a more or less certain loss most rounds. It is further balanced since the larger the servers the more "easy" marines there are to feed the alien players. RFK before the hive is dropped in 6v6 will obviously be more restricted than in 10v10 game.
So to summarize, RFK is what makes large player numbers viable, and should as such not be considered an attempt of the vocal clanner PT community to monopolize the game and force only 6v6 mp_tournamentmode 1 matches to be played.
Thank you for your time
I think I've come up with a design that will make both sides balanced at all game sizes yet preserves the sides' unique differences as well. This is one of the few aspects of the game that we are going to keep as close to our chest for as long as possible, for it's taken me years to figure out yet is easily duplicated and I don't want someone beating us to the punch.
You can be sure both sides are going to remain unique and the game will remain "NS", that's for sure.
I've been here since the beginning and 3.1 seems to be the most fun and balanced build yet... in big or small games.
Seems like the only issue with NS now is how to handle low skill/newbie players, and 3.2 goes a looong way in making the game more intuitive so they'll learn more quickly. So I see you guys are on the ball.
If you can't get the point in the post don't reply. Just makes you look silly.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I believe the point that youre failiing to comprehend is that no one agrees with your "critique" because it is about as well founded as a house built on sand.
<b>Balance not correctly scaled between low-population and high-population games/servers</b>
(RFK was a good attempt to rectify this, however it still needs tweaking, which I'm afraid I don't think is likely)
<b>Timeframe/Balance rollercoaster</b>
Early game marines dominate, midgame is questionable, late game aliens dominate. This needs to be changed in my opinion - both teams should be equally balanced the whole way through the game.
<b>Alien mid-game Fade reliance</b>
This is one of the largest flaws in the game in my opinion - unfortunately I have no bright ideas how to solve it, but you simply lose if you don't have a fade up around 4-5 minutes, this is bad. This also ties in with one of Detheron's earlier points - the game shouldn't be balanced around individual player skill - as fading is.
edit : and no Detheron, I don't agree with the majority of your points - especially this one:
<!--QuoteBegin-Detheron+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Detheron)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"They intend to turn NS2 into a business. That means they can't cater to a small, very specific playerbase, (such as clanners) but rather as many different players as possible."<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's not a business decision - in my eyes thats a cop-out. If UWE decides to make the game with the aim of selling as many copies as possible, instead of aiming to make a great game which people will want to buy, because it's a great game - they'll end up crashing and burning and I suspect that most people will realise this.
Anyway, at the end of the day "clanners" are not asking for anything drastic, just a few changes here and there, most recognise that large changes to the game mechanics at this point post-release are extremely unlikely.
The main function RFK has these days - apart from making organised matches slightly random when it comes to fade/hive timing - is to balance play in large pubs. See the more players the greater the advante of the marine team. Fades and hives gets dropped later but marines still have the same resources and thus the same time untill a1, phase tech, AA etc. One way of helping this is RFK.
Res for Kills helps in the way that even though normal res flow is very slow in large alien teams a good player will still be able to amass enough res to go lerk, fade or drop the chambers or hive. Without RFK that hive will be dropped at 10 minutes instead of 5 or 6, and that means a more or less certain loss most rounds. It is further balanced since the larger the servers the more "easy" marines there are to feed the alien players. RFK before the hive is dropped in 6v6 will obviously be more restricted than in 10v10 game.
So to summarize, RFK is what makes large player numbers viable, and should as such not be considered an attempt of the vocal clanner PT community to monopolize the game and force only 6v6 mp_tournamentmode 1 matches to be played.
Thank you for your time
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->As much as RFK helps the average 22-17 player, it helps the 34-3 player EXCEEDINGLY more. If we need more res to flow around, then find a way where everyone benefits the exact SAME AMOUNT. Don't have a feature where clanners obviously get a higher advantage than a regular player. It's as if we had RTs give a clanner 2 res for everyone 1 res it gives to a normal player - ridiculous.
If you need res to scale with larger games, then do exactly that: make RTs pump more juice. The way RFK works is that it relies on individual skill, not a team effort.
Another thing I'd like to point out is the so-called, "roles" in this game. A long time ago, I was fed with some BS that marines are all about teamwork, while aliens are supposed to be solo workers. The reality is that this is the exact backwards of what happens today.
Marine teamwork? What is this? Bringing another marine with you to go somewhere? How is that no different than bringing a skulk with you or rather, bringing another guy with you in COUNTER-STRIKE? Another gun aiming at your target is teamwork?
Aliens going solo? Then why do we need skulks to parasite marines for us? Why do we ask for heal from gorges? Why do we need lerks to umbra our onoses?
The biggest lie in NS has been revealed.
The biggest two changes in NS, brought up by clanners, have coincidentally helped them the most: blink-fades and RFK. Notice how blink-fades can be used more effectively by clanners and how RFK helps those elite players in pub games the most. What I'm asking for is some changes that help the rest of us - the pubbers, rather than going down this path of elitism.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I believe the point that youre failiing to comprehend is that no one agrees with your "critique" because it is about as well founded as a house built on sand.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I guess I must be a "no one" then.
I thought you meant "balance" in the context of the two teams being equally able to compete, not in the way that everyone regardless of skill level should be able to do everything as well.
A few good players will stand out very clearly from the masses and will continue to do so because they gain a larger advantage from RFK. I don't think similar skill levels in pub play will ever be possible, unless you have the same pool of players playing again and again.
I believe the point that youre failiing to comprehend is that no one agrees with your "critique" because it is about as well founded as a house built on sand.
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If you read the entire topic you will see that your statement is false.
And the post you quoted was directed at Space Jesus because he couldn't understand that this is not a topic saying how to balance NS1. NS1 is sorta balanced in its own way. This topic brings up points to be considered when building a brand new game, such as NS2.
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That's not a business decision - in my eyes thats a cop-out. If UWE decides to make the game with the aim of selling as many copies as possible, instead of aiming to make a great game which people will want to buy, because it's a great game - they'll end up crashing and burning and I suspect that most people will realise this.
Anyway, at the end of the day "clanners" are not asking for anything drastic, just a few changes here and there, most recognise that large changes to the game mechanics at this point post-release are extremely unlikely. In my opinion the very fact that you admittedly haven't played in a competetive environment implies that you have a fairly narrow-minded view of the situation.
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Lets not consider everything as Black and White here. You clearly understood my point, yet you are taking it to the extreme just to make the argument flawed. This isn't about dumbing the game down. This is about making it fun for more than just 12-16 player servers. More fun for newcomers as well. Not just experienced people who practice it a few hours every day.
No matter how good, creative, or carefully thought-out a game is, people will quit playing it sooner or later. Some will get bored, others will find a game which attracts them more, others simply won't have the time to play they used to.
If the game isn't very attractive to newcomers, they will eventually lose more people than they gain, and the community will wither. If you make the game attractive to newbies, the community grows, and the game is kept on development for a longer time.
-Edit- Also, nowhere in my post I admitted to never have played in a competitive enviroment. I couldn't say that, because I did it for 18 months in 2.0 /early 3.0. My clan disbanded around then and I never bothered to play NS seriously again.
Large numbers of players were viable before R4K was introduced. I know, I played in a whole lot of games with 24+ players. What happened was that the res model for aliens was changed and so gorges no longer got the lion's share of the res as they did in 1.04, and for some reason that currently eludes the devs thought r4k was necessary.
<b>6) The square problem (Map design)</b>
This is not a flaw of the game itself, but rather map design. Imagine a square. In one corner you have the Marine Start, in the other 3, hives. I'm not saying that all maps should or are designed that way, just keep that image in your head a little and you will see my point.
The best hive to spawn is usually the hive in the middle, because you can quickly connect to the other 2 hives from it. If you spawn in one of the other hives, you will be close to one hive and very far away from the other. Maps such as ns_caged comes to mind. It is a pretty big walk from Generator to Sewer, probably twice as much if Ventilation is locked down. If you spawn in the middle hive and a 'corner' hive gets locked down, you still have the other one pretty close to you, and very far away from marines. If you spawn in one of the other 2 hives, you only have one viable option to expand into. If the middle hive gets locked down, the game just became a lot harder than the former scenario.
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Actually, I had an interesting idea... most NS maps feel a little "flat" sure, there are different levels, ledges, floors, ramps, height, etc... but marines will never start *under* a hive (ie. having to fight their way *up* a map, instead of across), and etc. I dunno where I'm going with this. *Shrug*
Although dropping speed usually > running speed, so marines main advantage rapidly diminishes.
Your bonus is that the enemy is dead and you are not. You do not need an additional bonus that just makes it easier for you to get more bonuses.
Your bonus is that the enemy is dead and you are not. You do not need an additional bonus that just makes it easier for you to get more bonuses.
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QFT
Pubbers are attracted to games by how much fun they are (coolness, graphics, atmosphere, gameplay, etc). Competitive players are attracted to games based on how much fun they are <b>as a function of the game's competitive viability</b> and to a lesser extent the pubber-esque type of fun (mainly the gameplay and coolness). <u>It is entirely possible to have both.</u> Why do you think so many people play CS? Hint: it's not because it's "easy"
As Skulkbait said: Your bonus is that you are alive and your target isn't. Keep skill and resources mutually exclusive - at least in ns mode.
And CS does have a system which rewards skilled players much more than new players - its called recoil/aim.
As I said, your reward is that you kill your enemy before he kills you. As someone who gets killed a whole hell of a lot, trust me, its plenty. R4K IS the snowball effect. I don't know how long you've been playing (longer than me, judging by your member #), but I don't remember any snowball effect before R4K. Multi-hour games would not have been nearly as common if there was. The worst part is that R4K does not reward superior tactics, strategy, or teamwork. Instead it rewards your ability to twitch the mouse faster and more accurately, a skill which is already its own reward.
As I said, your reward is that you kill your enemy before he kills you. As someone who gets killed a whole hell of a lot, trust me, its plenty. R4K IS the snowball effect. I don't know how long you've been playing (longer than me, judging by your member #), but I don't remember any snowball effect before R4K. Multi-hour games would not have been nearly as common if there was. The worst part is that R4K does not reward superior tactics, strategy, or teamwork. Instead it rewards your ability to twitch the mouse faster and more accurately, a skill which is already its own reward.
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R4K is seriously minor to the point it is completely beyond me how people can be so quick to point fingers at it. Maybe in a giant nubpub you've seen some player kill a bunch of bad marines and go 2 minute fade. R4K really only has a noticeable impact on the alien team, and removing it from the aliens would hurt them quite a bit. It's been a while since I've played but even if you keep your nodes your fade will still be late if he doesn't get at least a kill or two.
R4K is directly attached to getting a kill. Therefore, superior tactics and aim are rewarded with R4K. This is especially pertinent for aliens, due to the difficulty of getting kills compared to marines; the current alien res distribution system also.
You are making an enormous deal out of a minor part of gameplay that would actually cripple the alien team if removed. This is where someone suggests "keep R4K for aliens only", and at that point, I simply don't even care, because R4K has a minuscule effect on the marine team.
People trash talk CS all the time, but few actually realized how close we actually are to being another CS clone. RFK rewards a deathmatch/rambo style of gameplay instead of strategic teamplay, and such concept is not something the entire player base feels comfortable with.
For the last time, I'm not talking about NS 1 here. I'm not asking to see it removed from NS 1. I'm asking to receive a system in NS2 where RFK won't be needed - or present. Is that really a radical concept?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Oh so now we shouldn't reward skill? Why don't we just roll a pair of dice every time a marine tries to kill an alien, and vice versa?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You are avoiding the subject. They said it not once, not twice, but three times that your reward is that you are alive and your enemy isnt. In fact, you read it every time. Why are you taking what other people say to an extreme just to ridicularize them, instead of making an intelligent post about why you feel that systems in a team-based game which reward players individually are good for the future of NS and should be implemented in NS2?