No not like it used to be, it takes less than 1 jetpack hmg to kill an onos. That's ridiculous. They're practically a hard counter for a 45 res diversion on the comm's part.
Here's the problem situation:
1) Comm researches HA 2) Aliens get an onos 3) Onos eats HA 4) Comm researches jets 5) Onos dies 6) Onos has no res to do anything else 7) Marines have nominal res intake 8) Aliens die
Armory -> Advanced Armory -> ArmsLab -> Proto Lab -> Research Jet Packs -> Drop Jet Packs. Now that is 165 res to get up to jetpacks vs a onos at 75 res.
Now remember this also isn't adding HMGs, SG, GL, RTs, Meds, Ammo, IP, Obs, Armslab with mostly likely 1/2 upgrades.
1) Comm researches HA 2) Aliens get an onos 3) Onos eats HA 4) Comm researches jets 5) Onos has scent of fear, and therefore can avoid the jp's if need be 6) Focus fades and skulks kill jp's 7) Onos and fades and skulks kill the ha 8) Aliens win
as you can see, you can play this game to WIN, not to lose and whine about it on the forums afterwards. happy fragging
Are that many jetpacks dying to two hive skulks when you play? I know here and there even a lerk can kill some, but jetpacks rape skulks (and rightfully so) unless you're on a really crappy server or your jetpacks are retarded with their bullets and don't weld. Maybe the issue I'm seeing is a lack of decent fading in the US scene, or something to do with adjusting to +movement? The best example I kept seeing when it first bugged me was a lockdown in sub-sector on veil, with mines on the pg and the left side of the map capped. The marines would win every time, and the aliens had absolutely zero chance getting into eclipse with anything less than three fades. Onos HP probably helps this a bit since aliens having that many RT's is finally to some advantage for them in this new beta.
<!--quoteo(post=1601451:date=Jan 24 2007, 04:15 PM:name=TOmekki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TOmekki @ Jan 24 2007, 04:15 PM) [snapback]1601451[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> 1) Comm researches HA 2) Aliens get an onos 3) Onos eats HA 4) Comm researches jets 5) Onos has scent of fear, and therefore can avoid the jp's if need be 6) Focus fades and skulks kill jp's 7) Onos and fades and skulks kill the ha 8) Aliens win
as you can see, you can play this game to WIN, not to lose and whine about it on the forums afterwards. happy fragging <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
the only way that is possible is if the alien team players out matcht eh marines in terms of skill. just because you do all of that does not mean teh aliens win.
5 jp'ers with hmg's in the same room as an onos and 2 fades and some skulks will destroy the aliens if the skill is clsoe to even, unless the room is ridiculously small.
<!--quoteo(post=1601484:date=Jan 24 2007, 05:56 PM:name=MrBananaMan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MrBananaMan @ Jan 24 2007, 05:56 PM) [snapback]1601484[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> the only way that is possible is if the alien team players out matcht eh marines in terms of skill. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1601484:date=Jan 24 2007, 05:56 PM:name=MrBananaMan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MrBananaMan @ Jan 24 2007, 05:56 PM) [snapback]1601484[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> the only way that is possible is if the alien team players out matcht eh marines in terms of skill. just because you do all of that does not mean teh aliens win.
5 jp'ers with hmg's in the same room as an onos and 2 fades and some skulks will destroy the aliens if the skill is clsoe to even, unless the room is ridiculously small. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> stop making up scenarios that never happen in the game. "get both teams in the same room, fight to death". ns doesnt work that way, understand this.
<!--quoteo(post=1601495:date=Jan 24 2007, 06:12 PM:name=SpaceJesus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SpaceJesus @ Jan 24 2007, 06:12 PM) [snapback]1601495[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> teamwork > skill in NS, especially in 3.2. muppet. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> teamwork is a skill
<!--quoteo(post=1601502:date=Jan 24 2007, 06:30 PM:name=TOmekki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TOmekki @ Jan 24 2007, 06:30 PM) [snapback]1601502[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> stop making up scenarios that never happen in the game. "get both teams in the same room, fight to death". ns doesnt work that way, understand this. teamwork is a skill <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
lol ok? 5 jp'er hmg's in a hive with 2 fades, an onos and some skulks. marines usually win. dont believe me? replicate the scenario easily with a co map. yes, co can help shed light onto balance issues (because it can easily replicate this particular situation.)
what im saying is, yes ns works that way sometimes. if you arent taking that into consideration when you come up with ideas now that you realize this, dont be stubborn.
<!--quoteo(post=1601502:date=Jan 24 2007, 11:30 PM:name=TOmekki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TOmekki @ Jan 24 2007, 11:30 PM) [snapback]1601502[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> stop making up scenarios that never happen in the game. "get both teams in the same room, fight to death". ns doesnt work that way, understand this.
teamwork is a skill <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> So.... you're trying to say that the aliens are at fault because they don't have a bunch of players all in the same room.
But that it's impossible to expect everyone to be in the same room.
he means that just because jetpackers are likely to kill an onos in a straight up fight (they ARE the counter to onos ffs) doesnt mean the game is over, not by a longshot :x And more to the point, as he also mentioned, depending on alien tech and/or teamwork the onos doesnt even get in that position.
(PS banana and flcn, youve killed these forums for me, I dont even bother reading threads anymore cause I know theyre going to be full of drivel)
<!--quoteo(post=1601585:date=Jan 25 2007, 07:57 AM:name=ZiGGY)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ZiGGY @ Jan 25 2007, 07:57 AM) [snapback]1601585[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> he means that just because jetpackers are likely to kill an onos in a straight up fight (they ARE the counter to onos ffs) doesnt mean the game is over, not by a longshot :x And more to the point, as he also mentioned, depending on alien tech and/or teamwork the onos doesnt even get in that position. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, I never questioned that Onos is even supposed to be able to counter JPs. Not like thats changed at all compared to 3.1
I'm commenting on how Fade-Lerk's reduced mobility has reduced their ability to deal with JPs in 3.2 And that nothing has been done to counter-balance that.
And more broadly I'm questioning the logic of teamplay being required to counteract soloplay "In order to counteract players who aren't relying on teammates If you aren't ganging up on them, it's your fault. But if they group up against you, that just doesn't exist."
<!--quoteo(post=1601585:date=Jan 25 2007, 07:57 AM:name=ZiGGY)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ZiGGY @ Jan 25 2007, 07:57 AM) [snapback]1601585[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> (PS banana and flcn, youve killed these forums for me, I dont even bother reading threads anymore cause I know they're going to be full of drivel)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If you want to make an intelligent counter-arguement by all means. Prove me wrong if I am.
<!--quoteo(post=1601585:date=Jan 25 2007, 08:57 AM:name=ZiGGY)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ZiGGY @ Jan 25 2007, 08:57 AM) [snapback]1601585[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->(PS banana and flcn, youve killed these forums for me, I dont even bother reading threads anymore cause I know theyre going to be full of drivel) <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Posts: 289 Joined: 19-December 06
puzlThe Old FirmJoin Date: 2003-02-26Member: 14029Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
edited January 2007
Why are the number of posts relevant? If their arguments are as weak as you say they are, you should be able to demonstrate it. Jetpack movement isn't going to be nerfed. Is that not enough for you?
<!--quoteo(post=1601551:date=Jan 24 2007, 10:46 PM:name=MrBananaMan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MrBananaMan @ Jan 24 2007, 10:46 PM) [snapback]1601551[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> lol ok? 5 jp'er hmg's in a hive with 2 fades, an onos and some skulks. marines usually win. dont believe me? replicate the scenario easily with a co map. yes, co can help shed light onto balance issues (because it can easily replicate this particular situation.)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> 5 jetpack hmg's in the hive? the onos shouldnt even be there then. he can be out killing the marine base or pg's or rt's. the next thing you neglect that the aliens have, or should have is a lerk. he will not die to the jp's because he'll stay close to the hive and fades. the hive itself heals nearby aliens at an insane rate. since its assumable that aliens in most cases have 2 hives at the point when marines get jetpacks (if they dont then the marine strat is to kill the growing hive with a jp rush, sacrificing upgrades, in which case they'll be concentrating on the hive and taken down easily providing the aliens have the sufficient lifeforms around to do so) they will have 2 different chambers, most likely mc and sc (mc first, sc when they've realized that the marines are going for jetpacks). this allows fades and skulks to have focus which, combined with spores, devastates jetpacks.
since the onos is in the marine base now, the marines have few options: to pg back, leaving the remaining jetpackers at the hive room at a disadvantage; to beacon, effectively losing a lot of time and time is res and res wins the game; or the comm can jump out and try to kill the onos if he's been smart enough to get himself a jp+hmg too. in that case the jp's in the hive wont get meds or ammo or scans and they will die.
obviously this isnt a 100% fact-of-matter. it doesnt always happen, but thats how the aliens might just win the situation. id also like to readdress what i said earlier; that it is futile to make up scenarios like this because they never happen. 5 marines dont just pop out of nowhere into a hive room and set up a pg. the aliens will have time to get oc's in there and that in the least tips the odds against the marines.
ps: dont talk about co, no-one cares about balance scenarios on co because co itself is stupidly unbalanced. marines get jp's? you have your 5(0)-upgrade fade, just kill them? or get webs if you suck, which you obviously do.
<!--quoteo(post=1601578:date=Jan 25 2007, 01:50 AM:name=GreyFlcn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(GreyFlcn @ Jan 25 2007, 01:50 AM) [snapback]1601578[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> So.... you're trying to say that the aliens are at fault because they don't have a bunch of players all in the same room.
But that it's impossible to expect everyone to be in the same room.
I'm confused.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> i suggest you read my post, as well as what i was replying to. dont be confused, it'll get you killed in combat
<!--quoteo(post=1601586:date=Jan 25 2007, 08:18 AM:name=GreyFlcn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(GreyFlcn @ Jan 25 2007, 08:18 AM) [snapback]1601586[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> If you want to make an intelligent counter-arguement by all means. Prove me wrong if I am.
If you can't do that, then who's posting drivel? <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I am SICK of countering your "arguments" you DO NOT post "arguments" you merely smear a composite of other peoples unfounded crap and claim it to be an argument, if you HAD an argument youd be able to cite even remotely the strategic or tactical implications of your point. Instead you merely put it out there for all the see and it smells foul, posting something does not make it true, it doesnt make it an argument and it doesnt make it worthy of reading. You have shown on <i>countless</i> occasions where people cite you example and scenario, every nuance of the game and you shrug it off as if you HAD a case in the first place. Its not up to me to prove you wrong, you havent given me anything to disprove, put up or shut up.
puzlThe Old FirmJoin Date: 2003-02-26Member: 14029Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
edited January 2007
Why do you need to even counter someone's argument? It's not like winning an argument on a forum will result in any change in the game. We don't read these topics to see who wins, we read them for the (often few) good ideas and analyses that can be found here. At this stage this discussion really isn't about beta2 balance, but which of you understands the game better. If you want to prove such things to each other then I suggest you get a room. Doing so here has done nothing but derailed an otherwise productive discussion, and I for one have had enough of it from both sides. Learn to accept that people disagree and move on.
Comments
No not like it used to be, it takes less than 1 jetpack hmg to kill an onos. That's ridiculous. They're practically a hard counter for a 45 res diversion on the comm's part.
Here's the problem situation:
1) Comm researches HA
2) Aliens get an onos
3) Onos eats HA
4) Comm researches jets
5) Onos dies
6) Onos has no res to do anything else
7) Marines have nominal res intake
8) Aliens die
Now remember this also isn't adding HMGs, SG, GL, RTs, Meds, Ammo, IP, Obs, Armslab with mostly likely 1/2 upgrades.
2) Aliens get an onos
3) Onos eats HA
4) Comm researches jets
5) Onos has scent of fear, and therefore can avoid the jp's if need be
6) Focus fades and skulks kill jp's
7) Onos and fades and skulks kill the ha
8) Aliens win
as you can see, you can play this game to WIN, not to lose and whine about it on the forums afterwards. happy fragging
1) Comm researches HA
2) Aliens get an onos
3) Onos eats HA
4) Comm researches jets
5) Onos has scent of fear, and therefore can avoid the jp's if need be
6) Focus fades and skulks kill jp's
7) Onos and fades and skulks kill the ha
8) Aliens win
as you can see, you can play this game to WIN, not to lose and whine about it on the forums afterwards. happy fragging
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
the only way that is possible is if the alien team players out matcht eh marines in terms of skill. just because you do all of that does not mean teh aliens win.
5 jp'ers with hmg's in the same room as an onos and 2 fades and some skulks will destroy the aliens if the skill is clsoe to even, unless the room is ridiculously small.
arguably the best teams in the world
...
over 70% alien round wins.
the only way that is possible is if the alien team players out matcht eh marines in terms of skill.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The higher skilled team wins. OMG UNBALANCED
the only way that is possible is if the alien team players out matcht eh marines in terms of skill. just because you do all of that does not mean teh aliens win.
5 jp'ers with hmg's in the same room as an onos and 2 fades and some skulks will destroy the aliens if the skill is clsoe to even, unless the room is ridiculously small.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
stop making up scenarios that never happen in the game. "get both teams in the same room, fight to death". ns doesnt work that way, understand this.
<!--quoteo(post=1601495:date=Jan 24 2007, 06:12 PM:name=SpaceJesus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SpaceJesus @ Jan 24 2007, 06:12 PM) [snapback]1601495[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
teamwork > skill in NS, especially in 3.2. muppet.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
teamwork is a skill
stop making up scenarios that never happen in the game. "get both teams in the same room, fight to death". ns doesnt work that way, understand this.
teamwork is a skill
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
lol ok? 5 jp'er hmg's in a hive with 2 fades, an onos and some skulks. marines usually win. dont believe me? replicate the scenario easily with a co map. yes, co can help shed light onto balance issues (because it can easily replicate this particular situation.)
what im saying is, yes ns works that way sometimes. if you arent taking that into consideration when you come up with ideas now that you realize this, dont be stubborn.
stop making up scenarios that never happen in the game. "get both teams in the same room, fight to death". ns doesnt work that way, understand this.
teamwork is a skill
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So.... you're trying to say that the aliens are at fault because they don't have a bunch of players all in the same room.
But that it's impossible to expect everyone to be in the same room.
I'm confused.
(PS banana and flcn, youve killed these forums for me, I dont even bother reading threads anymore cause I know theyre going to be full of drivel)
he means that just because jetpackers are likely to kill an onos in a straight up fight (they ARE the counter to onos ffs) doesnt mean the game is over, not by a longshot :x And more to the point, as he also mentioned, depending on alien tech and/or teamwork the onos doesnt even get in that position.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, I never questioned that Onos is even supposed to be able to counter JPs.
Not like thats changed at all compared to 3.1
I'm commenting on how Fade-Lerk's reduced mobility
has reduced their ability to deal with JPs in 3.2
And that nothing has been done to counter-balance that.
And more broadly I'm questioning the logic of teamplay being required to counteract soloplay
"In order to counteract players who aren't relying on teammates
If you aren't ganging up on them, it's your fault.
But if they group up against you, that just doesn't exist."
<!--quoteo(post=1601585:date=Jan 25 2007, 07:57 AM:name=ZiGGY)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ZiGGY @ Jan 25 2007, 07:57 AM) [snapback]1601585[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
(PS banana and flcn, youve killed these forums for me, I dont even bother reading threads anymore cause I know they're going to be full of drivel)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you want to make an intelligent counter-arguement by all means.
Prove me wrong if I am.
If you can't do that, then who's posting drivel?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Posts: 289
Joined: 19-December 06
lol ok? 5 jp'er hmg's in a hive with 2 fades, an onos and some skulks. marines usually win. dont believe me? replicate the scenario easily with a co map. yes, co can help shed light onto balance issues (because it can easily replicate this particular situation.)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
5 jetpack hmg's in the hive? the onos shouldnt even be there then. he can be out killing the marine base or pg's or rt's. the next thing you neglect that the aliens have, or should have is a lerk. he will not die to the jp's because he'll stay close to the hive and fades. the hive itself heals nearby aliens at an insane rate. since its assumable that aliens in most cases have 2 hives at the point when marines get jetpacks (if they dont then the marine strat is to kill the growing hive with a jp rush, sacrificing upgrades, in which case they'll be concentrating on the hive and taken down easily providing the aliens have the sufficient lifeforms around to do so) they will have 2 different chambers, most likely mc and sc (mc first, sc when they've realized that the marines are going for jetpacks). this allows fades and skulks to have focus which, combined with spores, devastates jetpacks.
since the onos is in the marine base now, the marines have few options: to pg back, leaving the remaining jetpackers at the hive room at a disadvantage; to beacon, effectively losing a lot of time and time is res and res wins the game; or the comm can jump out and try to kill the onos if he's been smart enough to get himself a jp+hmg too. in that case the jp's in the hive wont get meds or ammo or scans and they will die.
obviously this isnt a 100% fact-of-matter. it doesnt always happen, but thats how the aliens might just win the situation. id also like to readdress what i said earlier; that it is futile to make up scenarios like this because they never happen. 5 marines dont just pop out of nowhere into a hive room and set up a pg. the aliens will have time to get oc's in there and that in the least tips the odds against the marines.
ps: dont talk about co, no-one cares about balance scenarios on co because co itself is stupidly unbalanced. marines get jp's? you have your 5(0)-upgrade fade, just kill them? or get webs if you suck, which you obviously do.
<!--quoteo(post=1601578:date=Jan 25 2007, 01:50 AM:name=GreyFlcn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(GreyFlcn @ Jan 25 2007, 01:50 AM) [snapback]1601578[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
So.... you're trying to say that the aliens are at fault because they don't have a bunch of players all in the same room.
But that it's impossible to expect everyone to be in the same room.
I'm confused.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i suggest you read my post, as well as what i was replying to. dont be confused, it'll get you killed in combat
If you want to make an intelligent counter-arguement by all means.
Prove me wrong if I am.
If you can't do that, then who's posting drivel?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I am SICK of countering your "arguments" you DO NOT post "arguments" you merely smear a composite of other peoples unfounded crap and claim it to be an argument, if you HAD an argument youd be able to cite even remotely the strategic or tactical implications of your point. Instead you merely put it out there for all the see and it smells foul, posting something does not make it true, it doesnt make it an argument and it doesnt make it worthy of reading. You have shown on <i>countless</i> occasions where people cite you example and scenario, every nuance of the game and you shrug it off as if you HAD a case in the first place.
Its not up to me to prove you wrong, you havent given me anything to disprove, put up or shut up.
*TOPIC LOCKED*