<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Please tell me how this has ANYTHING to do with gameplay? No offense, but what you're saying is that NS should be forcibly changed and manipulated to conform to these arbitrary player values because you have problems getting people out to play?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Forcibly changed? I do not recall anything being forcibly changed. It could just be that Flayra has stated multiple times that NS is to be balanced for the smaller games. This means that the balancing he implements will be for the smaller games. This is not forcing anything... This is considered taking NS in a particular direction.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If clans have problems getting people out then that is a problem with the clan members and NOT the game. I played in a TFC league for years and know that it can be tough to get enough people to show, but that's life. You can't force the game to change because some people don't show up for games.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> If clans have problems getting their members out to play then yes... That is a problem with the clan members, but increasing the number of clan members required to play will do nothing but exacerbate the issue. We are not here to make things difficult for those who wish to play NS competitively.
And once again... Nothing is being forced.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->What goes against getting NS to the next level is this continual effort to force the game to conform to this outdated modal of clan play. If we want NS to be as good a game as it can be we shouldn't be forcing it to conform to the needs of those who can't bother to show up for their clan games.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> And yet again, this idea of something being forced on the NS developers. This is not the case. Simple logic dictates that games can be far more successful competitively if team sizes are small.
And what is this outdated modal of clan play you refer to? Small teams? How is that outdated? I'm not sure if I quite follow what you mean there. Care to ellaborate?
Stop with this forcing non-sense already.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The bottom line is that NS just isn't built to be balanced for these really small games.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Wrong. NS has been built to be balanced for small games. Your problem is that it has not been built to be balanced for the larger games. So your problem is really that NS does not scale well... It also seems you have an issue with the balancing apparently benefitting clanners more than pubbers, but what many fail to realize is that organized gameplay is the best way to balance something. It leads to a more scientific approach. One that you could theoretically control such arbitrary things as team skill and map design. With pub playing you cannot do such things, but if something were to become balanced because of clanners, then the pubbers would eventually learn the best ways to play each side and eventually pubbing would become more balanced; but you cannot balance a game off of pubbing. Its so arbitrary its rediculous.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->To make the game balanced we have sucked all the fun out of playing aliens. That was done because aliens had to be nerfed repeatedly to make the game balanced for marines, but aliens STILL are too strong in these really small games and if you were to nerf them anymore you would literally destroy the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Aliens are still some what fun. And aliens are not as overpowering as you keep saying. It comes down to skill ( or the lack there of ). Its the reversal of 1.04 and 2.01. It just takes time for players to really improve with one side or the other. Of course the "easier" of the two sides will seem to be the stronger, but that does not mean it is really so.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I hate to break it to you, but clans have run out of options. You need to start using some forward thinking and adapt to a situation that isn't going to get any better. The public will leave unless playing aliens is made more fun. (lots of people have already left if you watch the server stats for this year) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Clans have run out of options? I'm not quite sure what you mean by that. Overall I'd say clanners are pleased with 3.0b3. Sure, there are some small tweaks and changes that could improve things... But I do not believe anything really drastic is generally being asked. So what do you mean by options? NS 3.0b3 is all but balanced from what I'm hearing.
I'm trying to figure out why you're so set on claiming that people are leaving on a subjective notion. Would NS taking a while to be a public beta and then multiple beta versions with various bugs and problems not be a more likely reason for people leaving? As well as NS itself... The higher than most people like learning curve and alieness ( pun intended ) of the game play. Not to mention the "newness" of NS has all but worn off now. These are more likely reasons than because aleins are "not as much fun".
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It's time for people to stop putting the onus on NS to change because people won't show up for their clan games.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> But clanners are not the ones wanting to change the focus point for balance. The current focus for balance is on the smaller games. Pubbers are the ones wanting to change the focus, so stop trying to blame clanners for everything you deem wrong with NS.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->People need to start taking responsibility for their actions for a change.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->The one thing I do agree with you on. But I run a league and I deal with reality and have to consider and handle such issues as team size and members showing up... For online play and the future of NS were it to go to the next level with LAN competitions, something that will NOT be successful if the team size of NS were to increase ( this is more than my opinion, this is experience and observation ).
<!--QuoteBegin-HAMBONE+Mar 25 2004, 03:51 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (HAMBONE @ Mar 25 2004, 03:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Hmm, i just read a post from a top player a few days ago saying marines were way overpowered <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> LOL
<!--QuoteBegin-kavasa+Mar 29 2004, 10:51 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (kavasa @ Mar 29 2004, 10:51 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> lagger - maybe, but why? eR has 2-0ed exigent and exigent has 2-0ed eR, you guys seem to be the top two U.S. clans right now so I'd expect some of his top fades to be on that list. It <i>seems</i> to me that what fades are good at doing is sucking up bullets while the skulks eat the marines/phasegate/TF and the gorges bilebomb stuff, etc etc. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hmm, I dont personally think fades dominate. I was just stating someone else's opinion. Although I DO think that aliens have to relie on fades a little to much.
In my experience when eR ties other clans the sides they tie on switch from marines to aliens depending on the map and who we play. This comes to really show me that the sides are very close to balance.
- Othell, I love you. You told all the points in a clear way. Thx <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->.
<!--QuoteBegin-othell+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (othell)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Forcibly changed? I do not recall anything being forcibly changed. It could just be that Flayra has stated multiple times that NS is to be balanced for the smaller games. This means that the balancing he implements will be for the smaller games. This is not forcing anything... This is considered taking NS is a particular direction.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->You're not following my point...
When NS was initially developed, NONE of it was developed with clans in mind. It was developed to be a 'fun mod'. That has been Flayra's goal from the onset. He wanted to make something that was fun to play,
Along come the clans who slap arbitrary values on team sizes and THEN complain when the game isn't balanced for them. Since then the clan base has continuously hounded Flayra for specific balance changes, many of them runing counter to large game balance, and without any consideration for any of the other people playing the game.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If clans have problems getting their members out to play then yes... That is a problem with the clan members, but increasing the number of clan members required to play will do nothing but exacerbate the issue. We are not here to make things difficult for those who wish to play NS competitively.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Tell me something, what would you do in the following situation...?
Let's say that Flayra makes an 'executive decision' and decides that he wants minimum teamsize (for sake of balance) to be 8 players per side. With the addition of combat, he wants combat to be used for small games up to 7v7 and classic to be used for 8v8 and up.
Now, given that this was to happen, what would the NS clan scene do? Would you give up on NS or adapt and play larger matches?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->NS has been built to be balanced for small games. Your problem is that it has not been built to be balanced for the larger games. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Well it seems that Flayra feels differently about this. He built-in combat since small games weren't very fun to play and it combat mode could help to fill up servers. RFK was also added to help the larger games. Server performance has been enhanced so that larger servers could be run. You couldn't have a 16v16 server in 1.04 since the server would choke and die a violent death.
The bottom line is that Flayra has endeavoured to enhance clan balance as a courtesy, not as a point of interest.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->But clanners are not the ones wanting to change the focus point for balance. The current focus for balance is on the smaller games. Pubbers are the ones wanting to change the focus, so stop trying to blame clanners for everything you deem wrong with NS.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->This is where you are wrong. The only reason game balance has 'shifted' has been because of repeating whining from clans when veterans were added to the beta. If clans were the focus of NS play balance they would have been involved long ago.
They weren't.
That's the reality of the situation. Clans have been pushing the balance further and further down and I personally feel that it has been detrimental to public play, and to the game on the whole. Don't take my word for it, do your own study. Count how many players/servers are on at a given time and them compare those numbers in a months time. You'll see the same downward trend I have.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Aliens are still some what fun. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->This comment made me laugh. 'Somewhat fun'... ?
<!--QuoteBegin-Savant+Mar 29 2004, 05:44 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Savant @ Mar 29 2004, 05:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The bottom line is that Flayra has endeavoured to enhance clan balance as a courtesy, not as a point of interest.
Regards, Savant<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> would you be so kind as to elaborate on this point in the form of a short novel.
<!--QuoteBegin-othell+Mar 29 2004, 05:41 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (othell @ Mar 29 2004, 05:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Wrong. NS has been built to be balanced for small games. Your problem is that it has not been built to be balanced for the larger games. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I dont think that is right. I remember one of the PT's for the original version of NS saying that all their playtests were done with a large amount of players.
Rennex: Im sure that personal attack on Savant helps this discussion somehow.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In my experience when eR ties other clans the sides they tie on switch from marines to aliens depending on the map and who we play. This comes to really show me that the sides are very close to balance.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would stipulate to this. ^? <i>hasn't</i> been tying people in scrims, in fact we've been losing - but pretty much every single one of them has turned around a single point or points where we made a mistake and the other team exploited them.
Savant, your contention that aliens aren't fun to play is off the freaking wall. It seems to me that you've burned out on this game. Go do something else for a while, come back to NS in a few months, but if you're not having fun right now, it's either your fault or you're playing on crappy servers.
<!--QuoteBegin-Rapier7+Mar 29 2004, 07:53 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Rapier7 @ Mar 29 2004, 07:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Were you really banned from the Public Beta forum, Savant? Just a matter of interest...
But yes, I tend to agree with your points as a whole (though I've only started playing since 2.04). <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> If he was, wouldn't he be a "restricted" playtester, or something like that?
Please read his posts. He is not arguing against clan play. Pretty much all his posts here are about the 6v6 number. I think he is just troubled by how this 'arbitrary' number has became an integral part of the definition of clan play.
*Of course, thats what Im getting from reading his posts here. For all I know he can be some sort of clan-hating baby eater <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I'm not a hardcore clanner - nor a dedicated pubber, probably somewhere inbetween, but I'd have to agree with Forlorn and others.
The main thing I like about NS - at least in the games I choose to join - is the feeling that I alone can make a difference. When you pull back an alien team from the brink of defeat singlehandedly, that's awesome. If I wanted to feel like I couldn't do anything, I'd go back to playing some of the MMORPG's. Sure felt important there...
Also, the majority of the 24player or 32 player servers out there can't even handle that many players *decently*. Lagspikes, horrendous processing times on serverside and all of that plague them.
Sorry, large games just don't cut it.
<btw, why are they running the ATI tournament if they don't want to support clanplay? <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo--> >
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->the reality of the situation. Clans have been pushing the balance further and further down and I personally feel that it has been detrimental to public play, and to the game on the whole. Don't take my word for it, do your own study. Count how many players/servers are on at a given time and them compare those numbers in a months time. You'll see the same downward trend I have.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think its a mistake to say that any downturn in player/server count is ONLY the clan scenes fault.
btw: This thread has kinda got shifted to a different subject. It should proabably be reposted under a different title. Although most posts link to the main theme It would proabably be good to repost about the clan scene specifically.
<!--QuoteBegin-Rapier7+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Rapier7)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Were you really banned from the Public Beta forum, Savant? Just a matter of interest...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->No I wasn't. I don't know who started the rumour but I haven't heard from the mods about any such matter. (never believe rumours)
<!--QuoteBegin-Rennex+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Rennex)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->He has a bias against vets/clans dating back to 2.0 beta testing and refuses to listen to the other side. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->That's your problem, you see sides, I don't. I see the GAME as the whole, and I look for issues that affect the game as the whole. You're just annoyed since I won't capitulate to clan pressure.
<!--QuoteBegin-kavasa+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (kavasa)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Savant, your contention that aliens aren't fun to play is off the freaking wall. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->It's not MY contention, it's the PUBLIC'S contention. There have been many threads where people have overwhelmingly stated that playing aliens isn't fun. Regular readers will know what I'm talking about.
<!--QuoteBegin-Umbraed Monkey+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Umbraed Monkey)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Please read his posts. He is not arguing against clan play. Pretty much all his posts here are about the 6v6 number. I think he is just troubled by how this 'arbitrary' number has became an integral part of the definition of clan play.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->That's exactly what I am saying. I'm not against clans, I played in a leage for many years. I'm against the arbitrary manipulation of balance in NS to suit some number that was pulled out of thin air.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->QUOTE (kavasa) Savant, your contention that aliens aren't fun to play is off the freaking wall.
It's not MY contention, it's the PUBLIC'S contention. There have been many threads where people have overwhelmingly stated that playing aliens isn't fun. Regular readers will know what I'm talking about.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Most people only put time into giving complaints rather then saying "this game is fun" Happens in school all the time, people dont write letters saying how good a teacher is compared to writing letters complaining about task A or B. Personally I see many people having fun with aliens mroe so then marines in most pubs i join *yes i pub ALOT*.
I'll keep the thread going here until another is posted somewhere else. The disscussion although interesting seems very stretched in my opinion. I think your making it a bigger issue then it really is Savant.
Savant I would like to see many threads of people not having fun as aliens, I have a blast when I play them <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Well it seems that Flayra feels differently about this. He built-in combat since small games weren't very fun to play and it combat mode could help to fill up servers. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I believe the magic number is 12 when it activates reg ns maps and i think that would be a 6v6 game so i think flayra is telling us something here.
HAMBoneProbably the best CommanderJoin Date: 2003-04-02Member: 15139Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
edited March 2004
[ personal opinion ] In any experiment you try to lower the amount of variables. In any video game testing perhaps the largest variable of all is player skill. If you are able to secure a group of equally skilled players then you can more or less remove that variable from the equation. So of course you could take to the arduous task of finding a hundred or so average players of the same general skill level. The easiest way to do it, however, is to just get the top players. At the top of most all games you will find that individual skill among players is more or less the same and strategy and teamwork are the deciding factor in clan play. And besides it being the most effective way to gather players of equal skill, there are other advantages. For one, clan players tend to be a bit dirtier than regular pubbers. They will find bugs and exploit them. They will make it incredibly obvious when something is too strong by doing it over and over and over. Most likely they will be the first ones to find exploitative strategies.
Balancing a game is basically about two things. One, you want to find the strategies and tech routes that are not being used and make them better. Two, you want to find the strategies that are too good and nerf them. Clan players will seek out the strategies that are too good with a vigor, and perfect them. Hopefully in the end the strategy you boosted will be just as viable as the tech route you nerfed. Clan players aren't smarter or more devoted than anyone else, nor can I say that the veterans have done any more for this game than the playtesters or the constellation members, but they do offer quite a few benefits and in my opinion make the process simpler.
More importantly, does anyone have a quote of Flayra saying he balanced the game for clan play or for 6v6? Since its inception, Natural Selection has never been balanced for clan play. 2.0 was beta tested on one 20 player server that was generally full. In 3.0 public players outmembered clan players by about 3 to 1 and more importantly it did not stray far from the balance that 2.01 had achieved. 2.0 testing had many clan players, but it was not specifically balanced for clan play or for 6v6. The idea that this game is balanced for 6v6 or for clan play is an unsubstantiated myth.
EDIT: I do think, however, that a mp_resourcetimer server variable (float with range of 1-4) would help to speed up games on the larger servers and potentially make public NS a little more fun for your average pubber(BGH principle: more money = more tech/equipment = more fun)
I second everything HAMBONE said. I believe that the 3.0 beta servers were 16 players, if my memory hasn't failed me, and until the new vet program vets were a (relatively) rare sight among the constellation members.
alien side is way more fun to play. especially once you get leap <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-HAMBONE+Mar 30 2004, 03:36 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (HAMBONE @ Mar 30 2004, 03:36 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> More importantly, does anyone have a quote of Flayra saying he balanced the game for clan play or for 6v6? Since its inception, Natural Selection has never been balanced for clan play. 2.0 was beta tested on one 20 player server that was generally full. In 3.0 public players outmembered clan players by about 3 to 1 and more importantly it did not stray far from the balance that 2.01 had achieved. 2.0 testing had many clan players, but it was not specifically balanced for clan play or for 6v6. The idea that this game is balanced for 6v6 or for clan play is an unsubstantiated myth. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Hambone brings up an excellent point.
It is interesting to note, that 1.00 was balanced around a random group of pubs, and then 1.04 was changed for clan play.
2.00 was balenced around pubs, and 2.01 was done around clan play.
3.00 was done around pubs as well, but a lot of it is the same from 2.01.
All the vets taken in, most of it was worthless.
It seems to me people would like to believe clan play has made the game 'unbalanced', but the only truth to it is the oppisite.
Have to post the same thing twice in a single thread because people wont read the whole thing <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->More importantly, does anyone have a quote of Flayra saying he balanced the game for clan play or for 6v6?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->What are the essential competitive rules at least? Here are the basics, as the NS team designed the game for:
1. Tournament mode on (mp_tournamentmode 1)
2. Teams of six (6v6). Each side plays both alien and marine at least once.
3. Play happens on official maps, on any that are widely considered to be balanced (ns_eclipse, ns_caged, ns_tanith, etc.)
4. No plug-ins or add-ons should be required.
5. Console access disabled, and all tweaks allowed are in the out of game interface.
6. Use of VALVe Anti-Cheat (VAC) or Cheating-Death (CD) whenever possible.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thiers a quote from the FAQ which i posted on page 1/2. Like i also said the FAQ is also a tad out of date tho <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Geronimo+Mar 30 2004, 08:10 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Geronimo @ Mar 30 2004, 08:10 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I dont understand why the marines are loosing, I mena they have all the benefits...
SGs, HMGs, JPs, MT, HA etc.
All this costs alot less than the alien upgrades.
Why are the aliens loosing? As someone said, I think its because marines are more depending on the mapusage, and new/changed maps need learning. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Marine weapons and stuff are cheaper, but that's just because you have to pay a lot of other costs with marines, such as medpacks, a large tech tree (compared to the aliens), upgrades, and all of their upgrades take a massive amount of time (compared to aliens).
There is only one factor aliens need, and those are resources.
Here are some <b>major</b> advantages that aliens have:
- If aliens and marines are tied for nodes (marines have 3 nodes, alien have 3 nodes) aliens are in the winning position.
- If aliens have a 1:1 kill raito or better, there's a good chance aliens are in the winning position.
Aliens tech MUCH faster than marines. As a marine you must use your early game advantage and put damper's in the alien's growth or else your loss is almost guarenteed. Be agressive as hell or you won't win.
HAMBONE, Forlorn. I dont have a problem with clanners balancing the game, thats not the issue here. The problem here is that the balance in small NS games are MUCH different than large NS games. I dont need to tell you guys what the differences are, you most likely know much more than me. Since you guys are balancing NS for small games, its going to b0rk up the game for a server with a large amount of players. IMHO, the best thing that can come out of this is that the game is balanced for 8v8 to 10v10 CLAN PLAY. This is not a clan vs pub issue. Its a problem with the balance swaying depending on game size. I full agree with the need for CLANNERS to balance the game, but when the balance for you guys (small games) is different than ours (med to large games), it just doesnt work. Im just asking the BEST PLAYERS to balance NS in a MEDIUM sized game.
<!--QuoteBegin-Umbraed Monkey+Mar 30 2004, 08:53 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Umbraed Monkey @ Mar 30 2004, 08:53 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> HAMBONE, Forlorn. I dont have a problem with clanners balancing the game, thats not the issue here. The problem here is that the balance in small NS games are MUCH different than large NS games. I dont need to tell you guys what the differences are, you most likely know much more than me. Since you guys are balancing NS for small games, its going to b0rk up the game for a server with a large amount of players. IMHO, the best thing that can come out of this is that the game is balanced for 8v8 to 10v10 CLAN PLAY. This is not a clan vs pub issue. Its a problem with the balance swaying depending on game size. I full agree with the need for CLANNERS to balance the game, but when the balance for you guys (small games) is different than ours (med to large games), it just doesnt work. Im just asking the BEST PLAYERS to balance NS in a MEDIUM sized game. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I think most clanners agree the most unbalancing factor between small and large games is the res flow for aliens.
If you actually had acess to the vet forum's you'd know there are topics asking for a varible to help control the res flow for aliens/marines since 2.00 beta.
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Mar 30 2004, 08:44 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Mar 30 2004, 08:44 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> As a marine you must use your early game advantage and put damper's in the alien's growth or else your loss is almost guarenteed. Be agressive as hell or you won't win. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
i knew I like Forlorn for some reasion. He has the same philospy as I do.
Comments
Forcibly changed? I do not recall anything being forcibly changed. It could just be that Flayra has stated multiple times that NS is to be balanced for the smaller games. This means that the balancing he implements will be for the smaller games. This is not forcing anything... This is considered taking NS in a particular direction.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If clans have problems getting people out then that is a problem with the clan members and NOT the game. I played in a TFC league for years and know that it can be tough to get enough people to show, but that's life. You can't force the game to change because some people don't show up for games.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If clans have problems getting their members out to play then yes... That is a problem with the clan members, but increasing the number of clan members required to play will do nothing but exacerbate the issue. We are not here to make things difficult for those who wish to play NS competitively.
And once again... Nothing is being forced.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->What goes against getting NS to the next level is this continual effort to force the game to conform to this outdated modal of clan play. If we want NS to be as good a game as it can be we shouldn't be forcing it to conform to the needs of those who can't bother to show up for their clan games.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And yet again, this idea of something being forced on the NS developers. This is not the case. Simple logic dictates that games can be far more successful competitively if team sizes are small.
And what is this outdated modal of clan play you refer to? Small teams? How is that outdated? I'm not sure if I quite follow what you mean there. Care to ellaborate?
Stop with this forcing non-sense already.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The bottom line is that NS just isn't built to be balanced for these really small games.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wrong. NS has been built to be balanced for small games. Your problem is that it has not been built to be balanced for the larger games. So your problem is really that NS does not scale well... It also seems you have an issue with the balancing apparently benefitting clanners more than pubbers, but what many fail to realize is that organized gameplay is the best way to balance something. It leads to a more scientific approach. One that you could theoretically control such arbitrary things as team skill and map design. With pub playing you cannot do such things, but if something were to become balanced because of clanners, then the pubbers would eventually learn the best ways to play each side and eventually pubbing would become more balanced; but you cannot balance a game off of pubbing. Its so arbitrary its rediculous.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->To make the game balanced we have sucked all the fun out of playing aliens. That was done because aliens had to be nerfed repeatedly to make the game balanced for marines, but aliens STILL are too strong in these really small games and if you were to nerf them anymore you would literally destroy the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Aliens are still some what fun. And aliens are not as overpowering as you keep saying. It comes down to skill ( or the lack there of ). Its the reversal of 1.04 and 2.01. It just takes time for players to really improve with one side or the other. Of course the "easier" of the two sides will seem to be the stronger, but that does not mean it is really so.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I hate to break it to you, but clans have run out of options. You need to start using some forward thinking and adapt to a situation that isn't going to get any better. The public will leave unless playing aliens is made more fun. (lots of people have already left if you watch the server stats for this year) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Clans have run out of options? I'm not quite sure what you mean by that. Overall I'd say clanners are pleased with 3.0b3. Sure, there are some small tweaks and changes that could improve things... But I do not believe anything really drastic is generally being asked. So what do you mean by options? NS 3.0b3 is all but balanced from what I'm hearing.
I'm trying to figure out why you're so set on claiming that people are leaving on a subjective notion. Would NS taking a while to be a public beta and then multiple beta versions with various bugs and problems not be a more likely reason for people leaving? As well as NS itself... The higher than most people like learning curve and alieness ( pun intended ) of the game play. Not to mention the "newness" of NS has all but worn off now. These are more likely reasons than because aleins are "not as much fun".
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It's time for people to stop putting the onus on NS to change because people won't show up for their clan games.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But clanners are not the ones wanting to change the focus point for balance. The current focus for balance is on the smaller games. Pubbers are the ones wanting to change the focus, so stop trying to blame clanners for everything you deem wrong with NS.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->People need to start taking responsibility for their actions for a change.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->The one thing I do agree with you on. But I run a league and I deal with reality and have to consider and handle such issues as team size and members showing up... For online play and the future of NS were it to go to the next level with LAN competitions, something that will NOT be successful if the team size of NS were to increase ( this is more than my opinion, this is experience and observation ).
LOL
Hmm, I dont personally think fades dominate. I was just stating someone else's opinion. Although I DO think that aliens have to relie on fades a little to much.
In my experience when eR ties other clans the sides they tie on switch from marines to aliens depending on the map and who we play. This comes to really show me that the sides are very close to balance.
- Othell, I love you. You told all the points in a clear way. Thx <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->.
<!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html//emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif' /><!--endemo--> ++ <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo--> == SUPER COW
When NS was initially developed, NONE of it was developed with clans in mind. It was developed to be a 'fun mod'. That has been Flayra's goal from the onset. He wanted to make something that was fun to play,
Along come the clans who slap arbitrary values on team sizes and THEN complain when the game isn't balanced for them. Since then the clan base has continuously hounded Flayra for specific balance changes, many of them runing counter to large game balance, and without any consideration for any of the other people playing the game.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If clans have problems getting their members out to play then yes... That is a problem with the clan members, but increasing the number of clan members required to play will do nothing but exacerbate the issue. We are not here to make things difficult for those who wish to play NS competitively.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Tell me something, what would you do in the following situation...?
Let's say that Flayra makes an 'executive decision' and decides that he wants minimum teamsize (for sake of balance) to be 8 players per side. With the addition of combat, he wants combat to be used for small games up to 7v7 and classic to be used for 8v8 and up.
Now, given that this was to happen, what would the NS clan scene do? Would you give up on NS or adapt and play larger matches?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->NS has been built to be balanced for small games. Your problem is that it has not been built to be balanced for the larger games. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Well it seems that Flayra feels differently about this. He built-in combat since small games weren't very fun to play and it combat mode could help to fill up servers. RFK was also added to help the larger games. Server performance has been enhanced so that larger servers could be run. You couldn't have a 16v16 server in 1.04 since the server would choke and die a violent death.
The bottom line is that Flayra has endeavoured to enhance clan balance as a courtesy, not as a point of interest.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->But clanners are not the ones wanting to change the focus point for balance. The current focus for balance is on the smaller games. Pubbers are the ones wanting to change the focus, so stop trying to blame clanners for everything you deem wrong with NS.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->This is where you are wrong. The only reason game balance has 'shifted' has been because of repeating whining from clans when veterans were added to the beta. If clans were the focus of NS play balance they would have been involved long ago.
They weren't.
That's the reality of the situation. Clans have been pushing the balance further and further down and I personally feel that it has been detrimental to public play, and to the game on the whole. Don't take my word for it, do your own study. Count how many players/servers are on at a given time and them compare those numbers in a months time. You'll see the same downward trend I have.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Aliens are still some what fun. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->This comment made me laugh. 'Somewhat fun'... ?
That's says it all.
...and you wonder why I am concerned.
Regards,
Savant
But yes, I tend to agree with your points as a whole (though I've only started playing since 2.04).
Regards,
Savant<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
would you be so kind as to elaborate on this point in the form of a short novel.
I dont think that is right. I remember one of the PT's for the original version of NS saying that all their playtests were done with a large amount of players.
Rennex: Im sure that personal attack on Savant helps this discussion somehow.
I would stipulate to this. ^? <i>hasn't</i> been tying people in scrims, in fact we've been losing - but pretty much every single one of them has turned around a single point or points where we made a mistake and the other team exploited them.
Savant, your contention that aliens aren't fun to play is off the freaking wall. It seems to me that you've burned out on this game. Go do something else for a while, come back to NS in a few months, but if you're not having fun right now, it's either your fault or you're playing on crappy servers.
But yes, I tend to agree with your points as a whole (though I've only started playing since 2.04). <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
If he was, wouldn't he be a "restricted" playtester, or something like that?
*Of course, thats what Im getting from reading his posts here. For all I know he can be some sort of clan-hating baby eater <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
The main thing I like about NS - at least in the games I choose to join - is the feeling that I alone can make a difference. When you pull back an alien team from the brink of defeat singlehandedly, that's awesome. If I wanted to feel like I couldn't do anything, I'd go back to playing some of the MMORPG's. Sure felt important there...
Also, the majority of the 24player or 32 player servers out there can't even handle that many players *decently*. Lagspikes, horrendous processing times on serverside and all of that plague them.
Sorry, large games just don't cut it.
<btw, why are they running the ATI tournament if they don't want to support clanplay? <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo--> >
-calldown
I think its a mistake to say that any downturn in player/server count is ONLY the clan scenes fault.
btw: This thread has kinda got shifted to a different subject. It should proabably be reposted under a different title. Although most posts link to the main theme It would proabably be good to repost about the clan scene specifically.
<!--QuoteBegin-Rennex+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Rennex)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->He has a bias against vets/clans dating back to 2.0 beta testing and refuses to listen to the other side. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->That's your problem, you see sides, I don't. I see the GAME as the whole, and I look for issues that affect the game as the whole. You're just annoyed since I won't capitulate to clan pressure.
<!--QuoteBegin-kavasa+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (kavasa)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Savant, your contention that aliens aren't fun to play is off the freaking wall. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->It's not MY contention, it's the PUBLIC'S contention. There have been many threads where people have overwhelmingly stated that playing aliens isn't fun. Regular readers will know what I'm talking about.
<!--QuoteBegin-Umbraed Monkey+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Umbraed Monkey)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Please read his posts. He is not arguing against clan play. Pretty much all his posts here are about the 6v6 number. I think he is just troubled by how this 'arbitrary' number has became an integral part of the definition of clan play.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->That's exactly what I am saying. I'm not against clans, I played in a leage for many years. I'm against the arbitrary manipulation of balance in NS to suit some number that was pulled out of thin air.
Regards,
Savant
Savant, your contention that aliens aren't fun to play is off the freaking wall.
It's not MY contention, it's the PUBLIC'S contention. There have been many threads where people have overwhelmingly stated that playing aliens isn't fun. Regular readers will know what I'm talking about.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Most people only put time into giving complaints rather then saying "this game is fun" Happens in school all the time, people dont write letters saying how good a teacher is compared to writing letters complaining about task A or B. Personally I see many people having fun with aliens mroe so then marines in most pubs i join *yes i pub ALOT*.
I'll keep the thread going here until another is posted somewhere else. The disscussion although interesting seems very stretched in my opinion. I think your making it a bigger issue then it really is Savant.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I believe the magic number is 12 when it activates reg ns maps and i think that would be a 6v6 game so i think flayra is telling us something here.
In any experiment you try to lower the amount of variables. In any video game testing perhaps the largest variable of all is player skill. If you are able to secure a group of equally skilled players then you can more or less remove that variable from the equation. So of course you could take to the arduous task of finding a hundred or so average players of the same general skill level. The easiest way to do it, however, is to just get the top players. At the top of most all games you will find that individual skill among players is more or less the same and strategy and teamwork are the deciding factor in clan play. And besides it being the most effective way to gather players of equal skill, there are other advantages. For one, clan players tend to be a bit dirtier than regular pubbers. They will find bugs and exploit them. They will make it incredibly obvious when something is too strong by doing it over and over and over. Most likely they will be the first ones to find exploitative strategies.
Balancing a game is basically about two things. One, you want to find the strategies and tech routes that are not being used and make them better. Two, you want to find the strategies that are too good and nerf them. Clan players will seek out the strategies that are too good with a vigor, and perfect them. Hopefully in the end the strategy you boosted will be just as viable as the tech route you nerfed. Clan players aren't smarter or more devoted than anyone else, nor can I say that the veterans have done any more for this game than the playtesters or the constellation members, but they do offer quite a few benefits and in my opinion make the process simpler.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
More importantly, does anyone have a quote of Flayra saying he balanced the game for clan play or for 6v6? Since its inception, Natural Selection has never been balanced for clan play. 2.0 was beta tested on one 20 player server that was generally full. In 3.0 public players outmembered clan players by about 3 to 1 and more importantly it did not stray far from the balance that 2.01 had achieved. 2.0 testing had many clan players, but it was not specifically balanced for clan play or for 6v6. The idea that this game is balanced for 6v6 or for clan play is an unsubstantiated myth.
EDIT: I do think, however, that a mp_resourcetimer server variable (float with range of 1-4) would help to speed up games on the larger servers and potentially make public NS a little more fun for your average pubber(BGH principle: more money = more tech/equipment = more fun)
Hambone brings up an excellent point.
It is interesting to note, that 1.00 was balanced around a random group of pubs, and then 1.04 was changed for clan play.
2.00 was balenced around pubs, and 2.01 was done around clan play.
3.00 was done around pubs as well, but a lot of it is the same from 2.01.
All the vets taken in, most of it was worthless.
It seems to me people would like to believe clan play has made the game 'unbalanced', but the only truth to it is the oppisite.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->More importantly, does anyone have a quote of Flayra saying he balanced the game for clan play or for 6v6?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->What are the essential competitive rules at least?
Here are the basics, as the NS team designed the game for:
1. Tournament mode on (mp_tournamentmode 1)
2. Teams of six (6v6). Each side plays both alien and marine at least once.
3. Play happens on official maps, on any that are widely considered to be balanced (ns_eclipse, ns_caged, ns_tanith, etc.)
4. No plug-ins or add-ons should be required.
5. Console access disabled, and all tweaks allowed are in the out of game interface.
6. Use of VALVe Anti-Cheat (VAC) or Cheating-Death (CD) whenever possible.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thiers a quote from the FAQ which i posted on page 1/2. Like i also said the FAQ is also a tad out of date tho <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
SGs, HMGs, JPs, MT, HA etc.
All this costs alot less than the alien upgrades.
Why are the aliens loosing? As someone said, I think its because marines are more depending on the mapusage, and new/changed maps need learning.
SGs, HMGs, JPs, MT, HA etc.
All this costs alot less than the alien upgrades.
Why are the aliens loosing? As someone said, I think its because marines are more depending on the mapusage, and new/changed maps need learning. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Marine weapons and stuff are cheaper, but that's just because you have to pay a lot of other costs with marines, such as medpacks, a large tech tree (compared to the aliens), upgrades, and all of their upgrades take a massive amount of time (compared to aliens).
There is only one factor aliens need, and those are resources.
Here are some <b>major</b> advantages that aliens have:
- If aliens and marines are tied for nodes (marines have 3 nodes, alien have 3 nodes) aliens are in the winning position.
- If aliens have a 1:1 kill raito or better, there's a good chance aliens are in the winning position.
Aliens tech MUCH faster than marines. As a marine you must use your early game advantage and put damper's in the alien's growth or else your loss is almost guarenteed. Be agressive as hell or you won't win.
I think most clanners agree the most unbalancing factor between small and large games is the res flow for aliens.
If you actually had acess to the vet forum's you'd know there are topics asking for a varible to help control the res flow for aliens/marines since 2.00 beta.
i knew I like Forlorn for some reasion. He has the same philospy as I do.