? race unbalance ?

jesuspaljesuspal Join Date: 2002-09-27 Member: 1350Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Yet to see aliens winning</div>Today, I have played like 20 games. 90% of these I played as an Alien and in these 20 games I didn't see a single one that aliens won. I dunno, maybe its that the people don't know how to play aliens...

I know that playtesters played the game for months to test the game balance and to bring in tweaks to help the whole thing but I just want to ask if some people have had the same play experience as me.

If not... then I'll just keep getting raped as an Alien and maybe some day I'll get skilled enough to kill the damn marines  <!--emo&:D--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'><!--endemo-->
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Comments

  • BronskiBronski Join Date: 2002-10-29 Member: 1702Members
    Most of the time the marines won but i did have the aliens win a few times.  

    Remember, no one has played this before.  The whole building concept is new and people have to learn how to use it.  

    It will balance out once people get used to things.
  • MouseMouse The Lighter Side of Pessimism Join Date: 2002-03-02 Member: 263Members, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    I believe your on the right track there, the aliens do have a bit of a learning curve. Hell the whole game has a pretty decent learning curve. But when people start getting a feel for how to play as an alien the win loss ratio for the two races will even out a bit.
  • SonGohanSonGohan Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2939Members
    Hmmm... I don't know about that. A new-spawned Marine can chew down a new-spawned Alien.
  • GWARGWAR Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2297Members, Contributor
    Thats the exact point im trying to make...
  • El_Oso_VerdeEl_Oso_Verde Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2708Members
    Yeah, I just decided to quit playing for today after being killed in one shot by a marine with a shotgun right after spawning. Everyone I've spoken with agrees that the marines are overpowered, and that the Alien offensive turrets suck majorly.  They seem to only serve as shields and distractions, I've only seen one of my turrets kill someone once all day.
  • SonGohanSonGohan Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2939Members
    Ex-ACTLY

    Also... you'll noticed a LARGE AMOUNT OF PEOPLE ON THE MARINE TEAMS AND PRACTICALLY NO ONE ON THE ALIEN SIDE!!!

    Why?

    Because Aliens LOSE. <!--emo&:angry:--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':angry:'><!--endemo-->
  • Crim0nKingCrim0nKing Join Date: 2002-02-18 Member: 225Members
    <a href="http://www.natural-selection.org/cgi-bin/ikonboard/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=1;t=7681" target="_blank">http://www.natural-selection.org/cgi-bin....;t=7681</a>
  • Lord_FrodoLord_Frodo Join Date: 2002-09-26 Member: 1333Members
    au contraire. I just finished 0wning some marines. The trick with offensive chambers is to give the marines as little time to react to them as possible. Make sure by the time they see the chamber, there are four of them firing on the marine. Also, putting two defensive chambers behind an offensive chamber GREATLY increases their effectiveness. In the game I just got out of, I was a gorge almost the entire game and I led my team in kills because my turrets were so effective =). Also, webbing a marine RIGHT before he runs into a turret is an awesome tactic. It slows him down enough for the turret to do serious damage, and he can't use his gun either!

    The trick to winning with aliens, it seems, is RAPID expansion and fortification. Move like the plague you are, and once you get three hives online, evolve to onos and smack the marines around a bit. Also, when you're playing as an onos, I find redemption to be an ideal trait to evolve. You almost NEVER die with it enabled.

    Skulks, while most people complain about how underpowered they are, can be brutally effective. The trick with a skulk is to pretend you're in a sci-fi movie =D. Crouch up in the corners, hidden, until the marines have all passed you by. Then, attack! kill as many as you can before they notice you, then retreat to the shadows. Repeat.

    BTW: NS is without a doubt the best game I have EVER played. EVER.
  • El_Oso_VerdeEl_Oso_Verde Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2708Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--Crim$0nKing+Nov. 01 2002,01:20--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> (Crim$0nKing @ Nov. 01 2002,01:20)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin--><a href="http://www.natural-selection.org/cgi-bin/ikonboard/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=1;t=7681" target="_blank">http://www.natural-selection.org/cgi-bin....;t=7681</a><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Note that the first line of that post is "I haven't played NS yet."
  • SonGohanSonGohan Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2939Members
    Sorry. Out of every game I played only one had even sides...

    Oh, and none of them had an Alien win.
  • jesuspaljesuspal Join Date: 2002-09-27 Member: 1350Members
    I would like to add 2 points to what I said previously :

    1. The playtesters that were playing on the alien side were probably playing 100% perfect teamplay. That's not the case in the public games on the internet. <!--emo&:(--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':('><!--endemo-->

    2. The playtesters have alot more experience with Aliens advantages, skills...

    Maybe these could be reasons why the playtesters did not see any unbalance. The game itself may not be "unbalanced" BUT I hope that the context of public internet games won't stay the same as now cuz this could a Pain in the A*s for a <Godly> Mod.
  • BridgerBridger Join Date: 2002-10-30 Member: 1761Members
    man, i don't know if it's just me but i can't kill anything with bite, why? because my SCREEN IS BLOCKED WHEN I DO IT!  How in the hell?

    maybe it's just ping, but i've gone into a group of marines biting for like 6 seconds straight and not one of them even seems to flinch.  How do i know if my attacks land?

    How can aliens kill the structures?  All the good structural attacks come only with 3 hives (xenocide, bile, onos...).  You expect a fade to stand against 4 turrets?

    And what about the HMG and shotgun?  The aliens don't stand a CHANCE if there's a heavy armor guys with HMG, even suposing aliens have 2 hives already, the HMG rips apart a fade in 2 seconds (and a skulk in even less tiem).  Since fades are the second most powerful class of alien, i don't see how this can be considered balanced.

    Maybe it's just the ping that's messing with my bite attacks, or maybe i just need a lot more practice, but so far the aliens have seemed GRAVELY underpowered, even when i get 2 level 3 upgrades.
  • GWARGWAR Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2297Members, Contributor
    Alien without element of surprise = Dead alien

    Onos being the exception.... lol
  • Lord_FrodoLord_Frodo Join Date: 2002-09-26 Member: 1333Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--Bridger+Nov. 01 2002,01:37--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> (Bridger @ Nov. 01 2002,01:37)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->How can aliens kill the structures?  All the good structural attacks come only with 3 hives (xenocide, bile, onos...).  You expect a fade to stand against 4 turrets?

    And what about the HMG and shotgun?  The aliens don't stand a CHANCE if there's a heavy armor guys with HMG, even suposing aliens have 2 hives already, the HMG rips apart a fade in 2 seconds (and a skulk in even less tiem).  Since fades are the second most powerful class of alien, i don't see how this can be considered balanced.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    don't let the HA HMG marines see you until it's too late for them... meaning your claws should be in their back by the time they know you're there. Also, fades can take out turrets with ease using acid rockets, lerks can use umbra to protect other aliens, and even pudgy can build defensive chambers to keep his buddies healed while they try to take on a turret.

    The game elements work with each other in an AMAZINGLY beautiful way, and once you see it you'll begin to see why any game can go any way at any time for either side...
  • DanikDanik Join Date: 2002-10-31 Member: 1795Members
    I think the most people have a difficult time adjusting to the aliens.  There also appears to be an inherent lack of understanding concerning upgrades, that adds on to the already small number of people who uses gorges.  

    I think the biggest issue is how people play the aliens.  I hear so many people complain about how they were killed by one shotgun blast.  The fact of the matter is they aren't using their upgrades such as stealth, wall climbing, etc to get the drop on a marine.  If people would stop trying to fight marines head on they would do so much better.  Try hiding on top of a wall or above a door.  When they run through drop down and get them.  A skulk that can get in close range to a marine will more than likely kill them.

    Also just because the aliens are the "death match" race doesn't mean you wouldn't do better working as a team.  A group of skulks can rip through marines and cause major chaos.  I've yet to see a spore cloud or any type of skills that would otherwise cause a problem.  This I think is due to a lack of understanding of the alien race.
  • ShadowDrgnShadowDrgn Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2230Members
    Well, I posted a screenshot of me 7-0 as a skulk in that other thread, so I've definitely figured out how to play as an alien effectively.  In the beginning, hide on the ceilings and in dark places and get people from behind.  It's not too hard to bite someone twice in the back - or even to bite 3 people twice in the back.  <!--emo&:D--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'><!--endemo-->

    After that, I think it's really important to get cloaking.  This way you can hide as a Fade and have a chance of taking out heavy-armored HMG marines.

    For general strategy, the aliens HAVE to get resource towers up fast and defend the hive location closest to the marines.  If the marines manage to drop 20 turrets in one of your hive rooms, your team is screwed.  Get a 2nd hive up in a remote location first, but don't neglect the hard to defend one.  Defense towers are a must, and the carapace upgrade is good.  Don't worry about regen, let the towers handle that for you.  And since I said to use cloaking above, you'll have to skip out on the movement upgrades until you have all 3 hives.  Adv. Hivesight and Scent of Fear are horrible too.

    Just my observations.  Oh, and marine motion detection is really powerful.  Keep in mind as an alien that if you move, everyone knows where you are.
  • MouseMouse The Lighter Side of Pessimism Join Date: 2002-03-02 Member: 263Members, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    <!--QuoteBegin--GWAR+Nov. 01 2002,15:43--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> (GWAR @ Nov. 01 2002,15:43)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->Onos being the exception.... lol<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Onos + level 3 Cloak = win

    Try it some time, cloak at one end of a hallway and wait <!--emo&:D--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'><!--endemo-->
  • PowerCow5000PowerCow5000 Join Date: 2002-08-18 Member: 1188Members
    Sorry, but the only thing that can stop an HMG bearing heavily armored marine is onos, fade sure as hell cant if the guy has decent aim, you cant keep going after the bugger because they get medkits shipped to them mid-battle.

    I also agree on alien bite, I cant see a damned thing and I can't set r_drawviewmodel 0 because then I lose everything else in the hud and some features like hive sight.  I can't hear if I hit them because they don't grunt and I can't see afterwards because they don't bleed.

    If you lose 1 hive while marins have HMGs and Heavy armor you lost if they setup intelligent defense.

    And frodo, exactly how effective are those attack towers and defensive towers when a marine is using grenade launchers?  Not at all.  One marine with HMG covering his back and you just lost that area if you don't have an Onos or 3 hives for the better attacks.
  • Lord_FrodoLord_Frodo Join Date: 2002-09-26 Member: 1333Members
    I mentioned that the idea is to get the marines to see the chambers at the LAST possible moment. As with most alien attacks, you want the marine to be dead before they know what's hitting them.

    Fades can rip up HA marines provided they just use a lil' stealth.
  • GWARGWAR Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2297Members, Contributor
    Getting LVL 3 cloak is easier said than done,  I havent even seen a onos in game,  or a fade-lerk,  I have played 13 rounds and all of them have been complete domination for the marines...
  • ShadowDrgnShadowDrgn Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2230Members
    All you need for LVL3 cloak are a hive and 3 sensory towers.  You start with the hive, so just make 3 sensory towers!  I'd recommend making defense towers first and waiting on the 2nd hive for the sensory upgrade though.
  • saberxsaberx Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 3044Members
    The aliens need some serious help.  

    Turrets?
    - Weak.  Even if you pack them together, and put defense towers behind the turrets, all the marine has to do is come back with a grenade launcher and kiss all the turrets goodbye.  They need to have range equal to that of a nade launcher.

    The Skulk?
    - Their bite animation blocks your view too much.  You can't see where the target is when you're jumping, biting, and trying to avoid his fire.  Also, you can't tell if you're hitting him or not; there needs to be a loud marine grunt and some blood so you can tell.
    - They are pointless against HA.  Even if you sneak up on them from behind.  They turn and kill you in one burst.

    - Scent of fear and Adv. sight upgrades are useless as well.

    ---

    The fact that the aliens need all three of their hives built in order to stand a chance against the marines is fine, the problem lies in the fact that there's 3 spots and only 3.  If the marines manage to set up camp in one of your hive rooms, you don't stand a chance against their best stuff.  If there were more than 3 spots to build a hive at that would at least be easier for the aliens to attain and hold 3 hives.  The marines don't need to build anything in a specific spot in order for them to buy their best gear and weapons.
  • GreedoGreedo Bounty Hunter Join Date: 2002-01-24 Member: 37Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
    I would just like to say that all of your balance claims, <b><i>every single last one of them,</i></b> are all grossly exaggerated and misinformed.  You're basing things on LESS THAN ONE DAY OF PLAYING TIME.  Seriously.  NS has a steeper learning curve than any other mod I've ever played.  You can't expect people to know how to do things right off the bat.  Aliens are difficult to learn, but extremely rewarding for a skilled player.  In less then a week, I say you'll be seeing a lot more balance, once people actually learn how to play effectively.

    Way back when we first started playtesting, there were a lot of marine wins.  And I mean a lot.  And this lasted a few weeks, at least.  All I'm saying is to give it time.

    And to the person complaining about how PTs played aliens with 100% teamwork, well, we also played marines with 100% teamwork.  Have you see that on any servers yet?

    And to the person who said people always go marines <i>because</i> aliens lose: bollocks.  Aliens are losing <i>because</i> everyone goes marines.

    <span style='color:red'><b>You can't expect a game to be perfectly balanced if not everyone knows how to even play it.</span></b>
  • GibbyGibby Join Date: 2002-04-26 Member: 518Members
    Aliens get mowed apart by marines.  The HMG is waaaayyy tooo powerful, any one marine can easily kill any one alien with it.  I saw four Fades die to one guy with one, and they were all leading the game in kills.  Shotgun also is way too powerful.  The nade launcher is fine, as is the base marine gun.

    Aliens just seem to die really really fast against a marine with that wonderful bullet prediction code.
  • FluffyFluffy Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2067Members
    Well it sure as hell isn't any fun to play. Alien defenses are worthless, and the only way to take out a human resourcer with 10 turrets around it is to spam umbra.

    To add to this, these maps are horrible. What is with all those long, completely lit, hallways? To let the entire human team sit in them and only have to fear lerks and fades (Which do little to no damage at range against heavy armors)?
  • Sgt_PFoxSgt_PFox Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2872Members
    I've taken part in three full-length games now, and the aliens have been victorious each time.  Once, our commander was inexeperienced, and that hurt badly, but we're all learning at the same time.

    I'm proud to say I was on the winning team in the next two games.  A Fade with level 3 cloak and level 3 silence is a fearsome, fearsome killer.  There has been more than one occasion where I've slaughtered an entire squad of marines in an airlock or a hallway, several times without even taking damage.

    As far as turrets go, please.  A bile bomb is an awesome area-of-effect weapon, and strafe firing it is perfect.  Hide behind corner, strafe, lob, fall back behind corner.  Turrets have a small delay between when they detect you and when they can fire.  It's very easy to use that delay to lob out a bomb.  I've cleared out a nest of 4 turrets in that such manner.  If marines come looking for you, fall back, cloak, and wait for them to walk past.  Then melee them.

    For all you guys complaining that the marines can dump down 20 turrets, or that a group of 5 marines in heavy armour with HMG is too powerful, you're forgetting the simple RTS principal of "if it's the ultimate tactic, don't let the ####### live long enough to pull it off"

    Fade 4 Life!
  • MoleculorMoleculor Namer-of-Bob Join Date: 2002-01-24 Member: 9Members
    Sorry, but part of the problem with aliens losing all the time (though I've played games in which they won) is that a lot of server admins (or a bug, not sure which) that is providing near-unlimited RP. Typical playtests involved RP that would max out at around 120. I'm seeing games out there that are maxing out at 900, and I'm hearing about games that are maxing out at 3000. Flayra is working on this.

    This RP problem throws the entire game out of whack. Marines can spam turrets, HMGs, and HA like crazy, and this makes it easy for them to win.

    Don't worry, Flayra is working on this. It's not a bug we ran into with the build until it got sent out to other server admins, so I'm not sure if it's a bug, or admins changing things.
  • ArgoArgo Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2961Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--Greedo386+Nov. 01 2002,03<!--emo&:0--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':0'><!--endemo-->3--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> (Greedo386 @ Nov. 01 2002,03<!--emo&:0--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':0'><!--endemo-->3)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->I've seen both sides win, and I can believe they will be balanced. But only when the teams are balanced...

    So the question I have is, why ISN'T there an autobalancing feature in the mod? After all, it's not hard for it to count the number of marines & aliens, and rapidly see a problem?

    I think it should probably be a server-side variable, but I really think there should be such an option....otherwise, it's not much fun for the undermanned (or under-aliened, I guess) team...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->
    <snip>
    And to the person who said people always go marines <i>because</i> aliens lose: bollocks.  Aliens are losing <i>because</i> everyone goes marines.
    <snip>
    <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I've seen both sides win, and I can believe they will be balanced with more practice. But only when the teams are balanced...

    So the question I have is, why ISN'T there an autobalancing feature in the mod? After all, it's not hard for it to count the number of marines & aliens, and rapidly see a problem?

    I think it should probably be a server-side variable, but I really think there should be such an option....otherwise, it's not much fun for the undermanned (or under-aliened, I guess) team...
  • ArgoArgo Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2961Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->

    <snip>
    And to the person who said people always go marines <i>because</i> aliens lose: bollocks.  Aliens are losing <i>because</i> everyone goes marines.
    <snip>
    <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I've seen both sides win, and I can believe they will be balanced with more practice. But only when the teams are balanced...

    So the question I have is, why ISN'T there an autobalancing feature in the mod? After all, it's not hard for it to count the number of marines & aliens, and rapidly see a problem?

    I think it should probably be a server-side variable, but I really think there should be such an option....otherwise, it's not much fun for the undermanned (or under-aliened, I guess) team...
  • Silver_FoxSilver_Fox Spammer Join Date: 2002-01-24 Member: 34Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
    I just played 2 games where the Aliens completly owned the marines.

    After the second game, every marine was complaining about how weak the guns were and how the aliens were 'unbalanced'.

    Give it more time, learn the game, try new things.
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