ssjyodaJoin Date: 2002-03-05Member: 274Members, Squad Five Blue
edited June 2004
skulked were designed with the aliens from the alien movies in mind.. lil things jumping around, moving quickly, all over the walls/ceilings. This was the original intention, BH creates this. Although, currently, its hard for casual gamers to get the hang of it while other practice many hours at it.
ever see a skulk that doesn't jump. ever try and shoot at it.. thing is gone in a matter of how fast u can click the mouse.
<!--QuoteBegin-ssjyoda+Jun 14 2004, 12:39 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (ssjyoda @ Jun 14 2004, 12:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> skulked were designed with the aliens from the alien movies in mind.. lil things jumping around, moving quickly, all over the walls/ceilings. This was the original intention, BH creates this. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah, minus the whole "walls/ceilings" part. Bunnyhopping forces aliens to charge down the middle of the hallway in order to attain full speed, and that isn't very skulk-like. If aliens had higher natural speed in place of bunnyhopping, along with things like walljumping, they'd be able to run along the walls and ceilings like they're supposed to.
<!--QuoteBegin-Zek+Jun 14 2004, 07:12 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zek @ Jun 14 2004, 07:12 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-ssjyoda+Jun 14 2004, 12:39 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (ssjyoda @ Jun 14 2004, 12:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> skulked were designed with the aliens from the alien movies in mind.. lil things jumping around, moving quickly, all over the walls/ceilings. This was the original intention, BH creates this. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah, minus the whole "walls/ceilings" part. Bunnyhopping forces aliens to charge down the middle of the hallway in order to attain full speed, and that isn't very skulk-like. If aliens had higher natural speed in place of bunnyhopping, along with things like walljumping, they'd be able to run along the walls and ceilings like they're supposed to. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Then get caught on the first odd piece of architecture they hit and get blown into chunks. That really needs to be fixed first...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Then get caught on the first odd piece of architecture they hit and get blown into chunks. That really needs to be fixed first... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> True. I find that some maps seem to have been designed with little regard for the Kharaa in general. Most maps that aren't deathraps for oni are deathtraps for skulks. Or lerks.
That's why ns_eclipse and ns_nothing are my favorite maps; being on alien grounds gives them them the hometown advantage.
*EDIT* though, how would they fix it? I'm thinking that the best way is to let them climb smaller obstructions right over, like marines walking up a staircase, but I'm not sure how the code is written and what they're able to do with it.
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Jun 13 2004, 03:55 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Jun 13 2004, 03:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> and playing a skulk would suck even more; it would simply be waiting for the right time, hold down the "+forward" key and "+attack" key. No challenge, variation, or hell, anything <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm pretty sure you'd still have leap and celerity, if you're the "skulks should always own when they run down long hallways alone at camping marines" type.
Why does it have to be removed anyway? People are just tired of it being so exclusive, maybe it should be easier to do, but with less of a boost, so that more than 10% of NS's players could be using this "game-enhancing feature", (at lower speeds, it actually doesn't look so retarded), and it would be easier to balance. Or would you rather have it all to yourself?
<!--QuoteBegin-Stack!+Jun 16 2004, 05:45 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Stack! @ Jun 16 2004, 05:45 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Jun 13 2004, 03:55 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Jun 13 2004, 03:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> and playing a skulk would suck even more; it would simply be waiting for the right time, hold down the "+forward" key and "+attack" key. No challenge, variation, or hell, anything <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm pretty sure you'd still have leap and celerity, if you're the "skulks should always own when they run down long hallways alone at camping marines" type.
Why does it have to be removed anyway? People are just tired of it being so exclusive, maybe it should be easier to do, but with less of a boost, so that more than 10% of NS's players could be using this "game-enhancing feature", (at lower speeds, it actually doesn't look so retarded), and it would be easier to balance. Or would you rather have it all to yourself? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> No, you'd make it easier to time jumps so you wouldn't need a script to do it, like back in Quake, most could bhop... because the jumping mechinism was so easy to do, but you still had to learn the movements. Then there would be medicore bhoppers, ones who only could go so fast, and then you would have pro bhoppers who would learn the movements perfectly and would fly past the competition. But no where in the bhop race was how well you could time +jump even an issue.
I see people wanting to remove bhopping to "level the playing field" and that just makes me sad. Why should the playing field be "level". A good player should be able to own a newbie. It's not like this is incredibly arcane knowledge that only a select few know. It's existed since quake1 for crying out loud, finding out how to bhop isn't exactly hard.
I've come to liken bhopping to the "special moves" in UT. They aren't all documented in the manual (there's no adrenaline moves listed in the manual for UT2k3...heck they don't really even tell you WTH adrenaline is for in the UT2k3 manual) but they're another skill in the game to learn. People who put time and effort in to learning how to be a better player and how to perform these moves in UT are rewarded for it.
CS is boring cause there's so little to it. You run around a little, and point and click. In NS movement is interesting, you take an active role in how fast you move. And saying bhopping ruins the atmosphere is dumb. Skulks can ambush with or without bhopping, for one. Second, bhopping ADDS to the atmosphere IMO. With it you have to worry that 2 skulks are gonna come flying down that hallway like bats out of hell and get up to you before you have a chance to get more than a few bullets off. Without bhopping you can just stand at the end of the hallway and never have to worry about a head on assault by skulks because they'll be so easy to kill it won't even be funny. No, I'm not saying skulks are or should be head-on attackers. But I'm saying it shouldn't be completely out of the realms of possibility.
Altarian - original proposed "limit" would even create bigger differences between players :-) So you should want it! Only really good bhoppers would be able to bhop with 1/4s limit..
But I like forlorn's idea more. Bhop without scripts/mwheel is still skill, and I don't see any reason why bhopping should be script/mwheel dependent. Skill in game should come from playing game and using it's standard features and not from making support scripts, own models and so on..
And btw, ut adrenaline moves are not in manual, but they are in ingame game help and tips.. hardly a "hidden" feature.
I agree with forlorn that the jump timing should be easy. Honestly I don't care if they make a change to make the jump timing easier or not. Anyone who's learning how to bunnyhop will learn how to get perfect jump timing, it goes with the territory. So it really doesn't make much of a difference at all. If anything it just makes it even easier for the people who already know how to bhop.
There are any number of ways to incorporate a skill curve into skulk movement without bunnyhopping. It is counterintuitive for a skill that you have to learn from outside sources rather than personal experience to be that skill curve. There's already a skill curve in aiming a gun, leap/biting, blink/swiping, etc without the need to throw in special key combinations and movement patterns. I've never heard anyone complain about those things being too newbie friendly. Why does skulk movement have to be different? If bunnyhopping is going to be considered in this way then there should at the very least be some sort of instructions in the manual and ingame. That way it's not a matter of finding out about bunnyhopping, it's a matter of getting better at it from practice just like everything else.
Just play the game like it was ment to be. I usually go battle skulk (leap, clar, adren, silence, SOF, cara and regen) and i don't know how to bhop nor do i care to learn how. and I still score in the top 5 most games. often number one on the aliens. (unless you get those scripting fades. with that blink/swipe script.) I hop up iand down in the first of the game. your best bet is to get the surprise on the marine.. I'm able to hop up and down and give my self every advantage bhoping does in terms of unhitablity(I made the word up sue me) ... you shouldn't even really stay skulk.. sure it's becoming a Fad.. but staying skulk.. is like staying with an LMG but getting resuplly Armor 1 2 and 3 and damage 1 2 and 3. =/ just like skulk ups. I see no unbalence caused by bhop. nor do i see a balence as I just above said. a good skulk does not need Bhop what so ever. Hud_fastswitch and leap is the most deadly thing a skulk can have. now i'm just rambling.. four o clock in the mornin.. -yawn.- <!--emo&::fade::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/fade.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='fade.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Personally I would like to see bhop removed and replaced with something more intuitive and nice - like better wall walking + wall jumping. Imagine skulk jumping from wall to wall or from ceiling to ground in some narrow corridor while moving towards you.
Archangel - bhop is required in NS, not in combat. 1 hive skulks are very weak, and only few rare players are able to regurally reach positive scores..
ssjyodaJoin Date: 2002-03-05Member: 274Members, Squad Five Blue
archangel- for most ppl. blink/swipe isn't a script.. but lots of practice at switchin weapons fast.. I watch meh friend play, damn, he is unbelievable at times.
for those who think BH should be removed completely... you dont seem to understand just how easy to shoot a skulk taht isn't jumpin is. Its like chaining the skulk to the ground with a noose. dead lil thing. This one of the primary reasons for anyone to BH.. besides the speed increase, it makes u a much much harder target.
i still dont really understand what ppl have against any form of BH. I guess its just a trendy thing.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I see people wanting to remove bhopping to "level the playing field" and that just makes me sad. Why should the playing field be "level". A good player should be able to own a newbie. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well the principle is that team-oriented games such as NS should focus on the skill of the team as a whole, not the combined skills of each individual. So instead of being tested on your keyboard skills, the focus of the game is on organisation, communication and strategy etc - the various aspects of teamwork. Im confident this is how Flayra intended the game to be.
Many players would like to see the outcome of the game decided on teamwork instead of the quantity of 'good' players the team has. Generally, its only in the cases where the player's skill level is equal (such as a properly seeded tournament), does this happen.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It's not like this is incredibly arcane knowledge that only a select few know. It's existed since quake1 for crying out loud, finding out how to bhop isn't exactly hard.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I disagree, im not convinced its that well practised. Simply by observing how many players use it in the average pub, you can tell its not. Despite the very supporting community and the various guides, its still occupies a niche.
Granted 'anyone can learn it if they want to' but the fact is a vast majority simply arent taking to it - thats the problem. You have to consider why its never officially mentioned anywhere on the website or manual despite playing a significant role in a skulk's ability. It needs to be acknowledged in the manual at the very least.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->or those who think BH should be removed completely... you dont seem to understand just how easy to shoot a skulk taht isn't jumpin is. Its like chaining the skulk to the ground with a noose. dead lil thing. This one of the primary reasons for anyone to BH.. besides the speed increase, it makes u a much much harder target. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually the reason i BH is simply to cover the distances faster. NS gameplay is about area control anc chokepoints so moving between areas quickly is crucial. Bunnyhopping might not let you dodge bullets, but it gives you a huge time bonus and thats usually more important. Thats why it should be considered a 'signicant' feature rather than dismissed as 'gimic' or 'special move'.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--QuoteBegin-Arch-Angel+Jun 17 2004, 10:57 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Arch-Angel @ Jun 17 2004, 10:57 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Just play the game like it was ment to be. I usually go battle skulk (leap, clar, adren, silence, SOF, cara and regen) and i don't know how to bhop nor do i care to learn how. and I still score in the top 5 most games. often number one on the aliens. (unless you get those scripting fades. with that blink/swipe script.) I hop up iand down in the first of the game. your best bet is to get the surprise on the marine.. I'm able to hop up and down and give my self every advantage bhoping does in terms of unhitablity(I made the word up sue me) ... you shouldn't even really stay skulk.. sure it's becoming a Fad.. but staying skulk.. is like staying with an LMG but getting resuplly Armor 1 2 and 3 and damage 1 2 and 3. =/ just like skulk ups. I see no unbalence caused by bhop. nor do i see a balence as I just above said. a good skulk does not need Bhop what so ever. Hud_fastswitch and leap is the most deadly thing a skulk can have. now i'm just rambling.. four o clock in the mornin.. -yawn.- <!--emo&::fade::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/fade.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='fade.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Stop playing combat and start playing classic? GAH.
Blink/swipe doesn't need a script, and neither does leap/bite for that matter.
UKChaos, ns is like the only mod where bunnyhopping isn't VERY widespread. Look at TFC, the average TFC player does know how to bunnyhop. But there's still plenty of people who know how to bunnyhop. And on the public server I regularly play on, like half the regulars know how to bhop (most that don't know simply refuse to learn on "principle" <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> ) Arguing based on the majority doesn't work in a video game. The majority don't play NS every day. The majority don't play NS for long stretches of time in a single day. The majority don't really care or even know anything about NS balance. I'm not saying their viewpoint should be completely disregarded, but the majority isn't always right.
I think the devs should implent a _special script for everyone, like S&I has and a clientside lastinv scrip, and then remove further scripting. This will remove all needs for scripts and level the playingfield. It will also make a clear standpoint where the devs stand in the matter.
<!--QuoteBegin-altairian+Jun 19 2004, 01:20 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (altairian @ Jun 19 2004, 01:20 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> UKChaos, ns is like the only mod where bunnyhopping isn't VERY widespread. Look at TFC, the average TFC player does know how to bunnyhop. But there's still plenty of people who know how to bunnyhop. And on the public server I regularly play on, like half the regulars know how to bhop (most that don't know simply refuse to learn on "principle" <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> ) Arguing based on the majority doesn't work in a video game. The majority don't play NS every day. The majority don't play NS for long stretches of time in a single day. The majority don't really care or even know anything about NS balance. I'm not saying their viewpoint should be completely disregarded, but the majority isn't always right. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The minority isn't always right either <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->. The game should be balanced to fit the needs of both to some extent, not one or the other.
Well, it isnt a smart idea to balance for people who cant play the game, I know this sounds elitist but I do think its better that the game is balanced for the top-notch hardcore clanners rather than for the avarage-joe who only plays twice a week. Why? Since the balanace for high-level play will be majorly fuckedup if you balance it for the pubbers, while the game still will work out pretty well on pubs if you balance it for the clanners. Are great example of this is NS v2.01.
"Dont balance the game for those who cannot play it" (forlorn, I think <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> )
HAH! this is absolute rubbish. the skulks needs bunnyhopping atm, it's way too weak without it. take out bunnyhopping and take out all fighting oppotunity the skulks actually. skulking nowadays is all about how fast you can bunnyhop so you can get to, and kill a marine before he has chance to sink 9 bulelts into you. the only reason skulks would seem powerful is because you spend far too much time on public. put yourself in a decent to high level playing, competitive environment (where every decent marine can track bunnyhopping and counter every ambush point) and you'll notice how skulks are far too weak to actually be considered a threat alone. and even against one hmger.. they'll get raped. they're absolute rubbish.
coris, it is an extremely faulty assumption that pubbers don't know how to play the game. There are plenty of people who exclusively play on pubs who are not far from the skill level of the top notch clans. Nobody wants to balance the game for newbies, and trying to make the argument sound that way is just an attempt to discredit it without addressing any of the points.
First of all, it's ignorant to say that the game should only be balanced for one group or the other. That's obviously not the best solution and there's no reason to think in extremes. There are an endless number of potential fixes that have more of an affect on pub play than scrims, and vice versa, if you take the time to think about them. Simple, straightforward fixes are the ones most likely to create a balance problem in one group or the other; in order to balance them both you have to think about what causes them to be so different in the first place and try to make fixes that compensate for those factors.
Anyway, as for the current discussion I don't see how that's relevant. The argument for eliminating bunnyhopping isn't just making NS noob friendly. To me, it's about improving atmosphere, making NS' learning curve more natural, and lessening one of the factors that makes balance between pubs and scrims even more difficult. Something like what I suggested(replacing bunnyhopping with more intuitive wall walking/jumping dynamics) would do all that, while still leaving clanners a movement skill to master.
And crono, read the thread please. I don't think many people are saying that bunnyhopping makes skulks overpowered because it's pretty obvious that they're weak as it is. Skulks need a buff one way or another and if they need a little bit more with the removal of bunnyhopping then so be it.
sorry, i couldn't bothered, i'm still annoyed that all yo regulars that used mwheel to bhop were called hackers by an admin. lol. so i replied, but ye <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
If bunnyhopping makes the game balanced (between light marines and skulks) but only say 15% of NS players use it, then 85% of players will experience an unbalanced game.
Either buff the default skulks so that bunnyhopping isnt a <i>requirement</i> or make bunnyhopping more accessible to the average player. Remember the focus of the game is on teamwork and strategy, individual skill needs to play a smaller role.
<!--QuoteBegin-UKchaos+Jun 20 2004, 08:03 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (UKchaos @ Jun 20 2004, 08:03 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If bunnyhopping makes the game balanced (between light marines and skulks) but only say 15% of NS players use it, then 85% of players will experience an unbalanced game.
Either buff the default skulks so that bunnyhopping isnt a <i>requirement</i> or make bunnyhopping more accessible to the average player. Remember the focus of the game is on teamwork and strategy, individual skill needs to play a smaller role. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> It is only a requirement if the marines can aim (about 15% of the marines), so I think it balances itself out <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-crono^+Jun 20 2004, 05:42 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (crono^ @ Jun 20 2004, 05:42 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> it's not hard to track and kill a bunnyhopping skulk. but if that skulk can reach you before you put all the bullets into it, then you're ****. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> No... Just spam youre jump and strafebuttons, and pray for that your comm has gotten a1, if he has, you win gg. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Marine crackjumping should be SOMEWHAT adressed, WITHOUT totally nerfing the marine movement abilities.
Comments
ever see a skulk that doesn't jump. ever try and shoot at it.. thing is gone in a matter of how fast u can click the mouse.
Yeah, minus the whole "walls/ceilings" part. Bunnyhopping forces aliens to charge down the middle of the hallway in order to attain full speed, and that isn't very skulk-like. If aliens had higher natural speed in place of bunnyhopping, along with things like walljumping, they'd be able to run along the walls and ceilings like they're supposed to.
Yeah, minus the whole "walls/ceilings" part. Bunnyhopping forces aliens to charge down the middle of the hallway in order to attain full speed, and that isn't very skulk-like. If aliens had higher natural speed in place of bunnyhopping, along with things like walljumping, they'd be able to run along the walls and ceilings like they're supposed to. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then get caught on the first odd piece of architecture they hit and get blown into chunks. That really needs to be fixed first...
True. I find that some maps seem to have been designed with little regard for the Kharaa in general. Most maps that aren't deathraps for oni are deathtraps for skulks. Or lerks.
That's why ns_eclipse and ns_nothing are my favorite maps; being on alien grounds gives them them the hometown advantage.
*EDIT* though, how would they fix it? I'm thinking that the best way is to let them climb smaller obstructions right over, like marines walking up a staircase, but I'm not sure how the code is written and what they're able to do with it.
I'm pretty sure you'd still have leap and celerity, if you're the "skulks should always own when they run down long hallways alone at camping marines" type.
Why does it have to be removed anyway? People are just tired of it being so exclusive, maybe it should be easier to do, but with less of a boost, so that more than 10% of NS's players could be using this "game-enhancing feature", (at lower speeds, it actually doesn't look so retarded), and it would be easier to balance. Or would you rather have it all to yourself?
I'm pretty sure you'd still have leap and celerity, if you're the "skulks should always own when they run down long hallways alone at camping marines" type.
Why does it have to be removed anyway? People are just tired of it being so exclusive, maybe it should be easier to do, but with less of a boost, so that more than 10% of NS's players could be using this "game-enhancing feature", (at lower speeds, it actually doesn't look so retarded), and it would be easier to balance. Or would you rather have it all to yourself? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, you'd make it easier to time jumps so you wouldn't need a script to do it, like back in Quake, most could bhop... because the jumping mechinism was so easy to do, but you still had to learn the movements. Then there would be medicore bhoppers, ones who only could go so fast, and then you would have pro bhoppers who would learn the movements perfectly and would fly past the competition. But no where in the bhop race was how well you could time +jump even an issue.
<a href='http://www.modNS.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=603&view=findpost&p=5067' target='_blank'>http://www.modNS.org/forums/index.php?show...findpost&p=5067</a>
Please support
I've come to liken bhopping to the "special moves" in UT. They aren't all documented in the manual (there's no adrenaline moves listed in the manual for UT2k3...heck they don't really even tell you WTH adrenaline is for in the UT2k3 manual) but they're another skill in the game to learn. People who put time and effort in to learning how to be a better player and how to perform these moves in UT are rewarded for it.
CS is boring cause there's so little to it. You run around a little, and point and click. In NS movement is interesting, you take an active role in how fast you move.
And saying bhopping ruins the atmosphere is dumb. Skulks can ambush with or without bhopping, for one. Second, bhopping ADDS to the atmosphere IMO. With it you have to worry that 2 skulks are gonna come flying down that hallway like bats out of hell and get up to you before you have a chance to get more than a few bullets off. Without bhopping you can just stand at the end of the hallway and never have to worry about a head on assault by skulks because they'll be so easy to kill it won't even be funny. No, I'm not saying skulks are or should be head-on attackers. But I'm saying it shouldn't be completely out of the realms of possibility.
But I like forlorn's idea more. Bhop without scripts/mwheel is still skill, and I don't see any reason why bhopping should be script/mwheel dependent. Skill in game should come from playing game and using it's standard features and not from making support scripts, own models and so on..
And btw, ut adrenaline moves are not in manual, but they are in ingame game help and tips.. hardly a "hidden" feature.
I agree with forlorn that the jump timing should be easy. Honestly I don't care if they make a change to make the jump timing easier or not. Anyone who's learning how to bunnyhop will learn how to get perfect jump timing, it goes with the territory. So it really doesn't make much of a difference at all. If anything it just makes it even easier for the people who already know how to bhop.
Archangel - bhop is required in NS, not in combat. 1 hive skulks are very weak, and only few rare players are able to regurally reach positive scores..
for those who think BH should be removed completely... you dont seem to understand just how easy to shoot a skulk taht isn't jumpin is. Its like chaining the skulk to the ground with a noose. dead lil thing. This one of the primary reasons for anyone to BH.. besides the speed increase, it makes u a much much harder target.
i still dont really understand what ppl have against any form of BH. I guess its just a trendy thing.
Well the principle is that team-oriented games such as NS should focus on the skill of the team as a whole, not the combined skills of each individual. So instead of being tested on your keyboard skills, the focus of the game is on organisation, communication and strategy etc - the various aspects of teamwork. Im confident this is how Flayra intended the game to be.
Many players would like to see the outcome of the game decided on teamwork instead of the quantity of 'good' players the team has. Generally, its only in the cases where the player's skill level is equal (such as a properly seeded tournament), does this happen.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It's not like this is incredibly arcane knowledge that only a select few know. It's existed since quake1 for crying out loud, finding out how to bhop isn't exactly hard.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I disagree, im not convinced its that well practised. Simply by observing how many players use it in the average pub, you can tell its not. Despite the very supporting community and the various guides, its still occupies a niche.
Granted 'anyone can learn it if they want to' but the fact is a vast majority simply arent taking to it - thats the problem. You have to consider why its never officially mentioned anywhere on the website or manual despite playing a significant role in a skulk's ability. It needs to be acknowledged in the manual at the very least.
Actually the reason i BH is simply to cover the distances faster. NS gameplay is about area control anc chokepoints so moving between areas quickly is crucial. Bunnyhopping might not let you dodge bullets, but it gives you a huge time bonus and thats usually more important. Thats why it should be considered a 'signicant' feature rather than dismissed as 'gimic' or 'special move'.
Stop playing combat and start playing classic? GAH.
Blink/swipe doesn't need a script, and neither does leap/bite for that matter.
Arguing based on the majority doesn't work in a video game. The majority don't play NS every day. The majority don't play NS for long stretches of time in a single day. The majority don't really care or even know anything about NS balance. I'm not saying their viewpoint should be completely disregarded, but the majority isn't always right.
Arguing based on the majority doesn't work in a video game. The majority don't play NS every day. The majority don't play NS for long stretches of time in a single day. The majority don't really care or even know anything about NS balance. I'm not saying their viewpoint should be completely disregarded, but the majority isn't always right. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
The minority isn't always right either <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->. The game should be balanced to fit the needs of both to some extent, not one or the other.
"Dont balance the game for those who cannot play it" (forlorn, I think <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> )
First of all, it's ignorant to say that the game should only be balanced for one group or the other. That's obviously not the best solution and there's no reason to think in extremes. There are an endless number of potential fixes that have more of an affect on pub play than scrims, and vice versa, if you take the time to think about them. Simple, straightforward fixes are the ones most likely to create a balance problem in one group or the other; in order to balance them both you have to think about what causes them to be so different in the first place and try to make fixes that compensate for those factors.
Anyway, as for the current discussion I don't see how that's relevant. The argument for eliminating bunnyhopping isn't just making NS noob friendly. To me, it's about improving atmosphere, making NS' learning curve more natural, and lessening one of the factors that makes balance between pubs and scrims even more difficult. Something like what I suggested(replacing bunnyhopping with more intuitive wall walking/jumping dynamics) would do all that, while still leaving clanners a movement skill to master.
And crono, read the thread please. I don't think many people are saying that bunnyhopping makes skulks overpowered because it's pretty obvious that they're weak as it is. Skulks need a buff one way or another and if they need a little bit more with the removal of bunnyhopping then so be it.
Either buff the default skulks so that bunnyhopping isnt a <i>requirement</i> or make bunnyhopping more accessible to the average player. Remember the focus of the game is on teamwork and strategy, individual skill needs to play a smaller role.
Either buff the default skulks so that bunnyhopping isnt a <i>requirement</i> or make bunnyhopping more accessible to the average player. Remember the focus of the game is on teamwork and strategy, individual skill needs to play a smaller role. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is only a requirement if the marines can aim (about 15% of the marines), so I think it balances itself out <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
No... Just spam youre jump and strafebuttons, and pray for that your comm has gotten a1, if he has, you win gg. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Marine crackjumping should be SOMEWHAT adressed, WITHOUT totally nerfing the marine movement abilities.