Science & Industy is fun... but NOONE plays it... a deeper human vs human version of NS...
HL Rally IS EXCELLENT! Nice Graphics, even comes with a real working RADIO ingame! but NOONE plays it... Beautiful racing game on half life...
Sven Coop is fun as well, but rarely anyone plays it... play half life cooperatively with PEOPLE!
New mods are shadowed <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I've played S&I as well as Sven. (More S&I, but I haven't played the newer version). S&I was pretty much team deathmatch and just didn't feel like it really had a purpose. The Sven games I played were all on maps that felt like goof-off maps. There wasn't any real feeling of accomplishment. There's a reason the popular mods are popular.
I really like the sound of this as well.... To many games have I seen the alien team "experimenting" SC first and its a garunteed loss. Although something thats always annoied me is that SC does not offer the upgrades I think it should...
I personally think that SC should offer Silence and Cloaking those in its radius... Espically for hives as Commanders all to often easily can find the hive by simply moving their view over to hive locations and "listening" which if we look at the stories which establish NS "nano-gridlock" certainly wouldn't allow this to happen as the best the "nano-flush" in a system is reveal the map of the station.
I personally see that if even this LITTLE change was to happen in the current NS that might just affect game tactics as well.. However... I still agree that a FULL unchaining and the original idea purposed by Ryo-Ohki sounds like the best idea I've heard in a long time.
However, not sure about the SC change. Commanders should find the hive in the first 20 seconds, not nearly enough time to gorge and drop a chamber. And by the time the second hive is going up, a quick ping of the hives provides all the information needed...
It would also make the "silence" upgrade far less used, and further devalue the MC itself. If you can get silence without MC, that's 1/4 of its use already. (1/5 if you count the energy boost, but that's only significant in the end game AR spamming of MS really.)
i think this is a great idea.. and should freshen up the NS scene
exspecially with "inexperianced" players who never see SC's cause the game finishes early and when they try them out they get kciked or yelled at or banned
<!--QuoteBegin-Demented+Jun 27 2004, 06:49 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Demented @ Jun 27 2004, 06:49 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'm all for this idea. Alternatively we could make all three chambers viable but... (turns on flameshield). <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> While that would be the ideal situation, that would require a lot more work that just unchaining them. This simple change brings that Unknown element back into the game, diversifying the Kharaa game, and allowing for a far more FUN game.
Yes, tweaks will need to be made, most notably to the Sensory chambers AOE cloaking, probably just by reducing the radius by 30-50%
Things I think that would have to be tweaked if the Unchaining were to become offically supported: <ul><li>Reduce cloaking range of sensories, somewhere between 30-50% of current radius</li><li>Do the same for Defense and Movement AOE ranges</li><li>Movements can only teleport to FULLY constructed hives. A building hive under attack cannot be warped to. However a active one can.</li><li>Reduce the cost of Observatories by 5 resources. Leave the cost (energy) of Scan the same.</li><li>Probably a couple of tweaks I'm missing.</li></ul> Would those changes be implementable in the current Unchain Mod that is out? Too see how it works?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yes, tweaks will need to be made, most notably to the Sensory chambers AOE cloaking, probably just by reducing the radius by 30-50%<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Or you could just get your commander to ping, get motion tracking, or build an observatory.
You could always do something like if the Sensory is revealed, all aliens cloaked by it will be revealed too. So if a stray bullet or random ping hits the chamber, it will decloak along with all the player(and building) units around it. A small nerf wouldn't you say?
SewlekThe programmer previously known as SchimmelJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16247Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Developer
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Would those changes be implementable in the current Unchain Mod that is out? Too see how it works? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Thor-Stryker+Jun 27 2004, 02:46 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Thor-Stryker @ Jun 27 2004, 02:46 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You could always do something like if the Sensory is revealed, all aliens cloaked by it will be revealed too. So if a stray bullet or random ping hits the chamber, it will decloak along with all the player(and building) units around it. A small nerf wouldn't you say? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, a ping reveals everything thats cloaked anyway, but I like the Damaged-Cloak disruption idea.
<!--QuoteBegin-Thor-Stryker+Jun 27 2004, 02:46 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Thor-Stryker @ Jun 27 2004, 02:46 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You could always do something like if the Sensory is revealed, all aliens cloaked by it will be revealed too. So if a stray bullet or random ping hits the chamber, it will decloak along with all the player(and building) units around it. A small nerf wouldn't you say? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Doesn't sound so much as a nerf as a counter to Sensory chambers. Regardless, me likey. Structures cloaked by SCs should be uncloaked too, in my opinion... though I have the feeling you were alluding to this already, Thor-Stryker.
Seems a bit... rude. Flayra has plenty to do. I am sure the mods will keep him informed with whatever notes / bulletins they have set up.
I think this thread cannot be ignored; too much support. Anti-DMs in Ns beta5 you think? <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-BlueNovember+Jun 28 2004, 01:37 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BlueNovember @ Jun 28 2004, 01:37 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Seems a bit... rude. Flayra has plenty to do. I am sure the mods will keep him informed with whatever notes / bulletins they have set up.
I think this thread cannot be ignored; too much support. Anti-DMs in Ns beta5 you think? <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Rude? yeah ok um..sure
Informing him of an idea that an awful lot of the community support is not rude, and besides, something like this would have to be decided by him anyway.
Perhaps what BlueNovemeber ment is that Flayra is a very busy man. Doubtless he's got a lot on his plate, managing a new company, searching for a platform for NS 2, and developing Beta 5. He surely would know about this; many of the forum admins have commented in these threads and with the 2 unchaining threads are always on the first page of the beta forums. If Flayra doesn't know about this then he's really out of the loop, but I think we can safely assume that he knows about it.
<---- is the guy who got banned for saying "hey get used to it, ailens are supposed to evolve try something new, now if you want your defense chamber make another hive, until then stick with the sens"
Meh, maybe the moderators shouldn't change it. I mean, it would be fun to be alien, but marines would get raped. A new "sens rush" would be formed where everyone gets sensory, cloaks, then rushes. And if it fails? Meh, no biggie, we'll just build DCs now and go fade, etc. It would be fun, but unbalanced. Skulks would get too many kills and get upper life forms too quickly. Also, marines would need to immediately spend 20 res on an obs to cope for this cloak strategy. 20 res which could go toward early armor 1 or another IP or even grenades <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo--> . But yeah, you get my point. Although you may not like the moderators for not wanting to change anything like that at the moment, that does not mean what they are doing is wrong.
1) Primary, main point. Stop saying "would" or any other future predicting term. Go and PLAY it first. You don't need to wait for it to be put in. Go PLAY IT. Then come back. Tell me with a straight face that marines get owned, that they have no fun. The stats from 1200 games on an unchained server came in, just look down the forum a bit, and you'll see that the win/loss ratio is very close to 50/50 with a standard deviation of between 3-5%. That's practically the very definition of balanced.
2) Were you around for the first release of 2.0? Did you know that at that time, EVERYONE started making sensories FIRST, and that there were a half-dozen threads on this very board posted about how broken and unbalanced sensory was then? And do you know what happened next? Instead of a patch, marines started scanning, and placing observatories, and suddenly the aliens discovered that their killer cloaking was made worthless, and they couldn't change their upgrade without another hive, and so things reverted once more to DMS.
History folks. Learn it or be doomed to repeat it. Sensory is valuble early game, yes, but then it is COUNTERABLE. And DESTROYABLE.
I did not realize servers had implemented this because I thought this thread was requesting it to be implemented, not actually doing so.
About your "sensory strat" from 2.0, I shall quote you...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->EVERYONE started making sensories FIRST, and that there were a half-dozen threads on this very board posted about how broken and unbalanced sensory was then? And do you know what happened next? Instead of a patch, marines started scanning, and placing observatories, and suddenly the aliens discovered that their killer cloaking was made worthless, and <b>they couldn't change their upgrade without another hive</b>...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
EXACTLY! That is what made the sensory counterable. With the chambers unlocked, they could just switch to defense whenever they wanted. Thus, sensory could become incredibly deadly, marines would react to the sensory, then aliens would switch over to defense and all that res would be wasted on counter-attacking the sensory.
And P.S. I'll use whatever verb tense I want to! Mwahahahahahahahahahahaha!
<!--QuoteBegin-Alkiller+Jul 3 2004, 06:08 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Alkiller @ Jul 3 2004, 06:08 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> EXACTLY! That is what made the sensory counterable. With the chambers unlocked, they could just switch to defense whenever they wanted. Thus, sensory could become incredibly deadly, marines would react to the sensory, then aliens would switch over to defense and all that res would be wasted on counter-attacking the sensory. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> No, that's what made sensory worthless.
The aliens couldn't just switch to defense after a sensory rush because they would have already spent their res on sensory chambers, leaving none left for defense. However, unlike now, if they manage to hold out after the failed rush, they are actually able to come back instead of being doomed.
<!--QuoteBegin-Ahnteis+Jul 3 2004, 08:08 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ahnteis @ Jul 3 2004, 08:08 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Alkiller+Jul 3 2004, 06:08 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Alkiller @ Jul 3 2004, 06:08 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> EXACTLY! That is what made the sensory counterable. With the chambers unlocked, they could just switch to defense whenever they wanted. Thus, sensory could become incredibly deadly, marines would react to the sensory, then aliens would switch over to defense and all that res would be wasted on counter-attacking the sensory. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> No, that's what made sensory worthless. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> More specifically, it's what made sensory so easily counterable with so little effort by the marines that ANYTHING ELSE would be better. Remember, we're asking for this to provide DIVERSITY IN PLAY. Tell me, when was the last time you saw sensory first in this game? Did you win? Did you even have fun?
Tell me, as marines, when was the last time the aliens used sensory first on you? Did you win? Did you have fun?
In my experience, the answers to those questions are "A few weeks ago, when some lamer came in and tried to ruin the game. We lost miserably, barely able to put up the second hive and grab some DCs before it was taken down again, but we were already too far behind. We had no fun at all, as we were demolished at every turn. We didn't have the resources to put up a sensory network, and the few places we were cloaked got scanned and taken out. Focus didn't even help once they got armor.
On the other side, last time I played marines where aliens got sensory first was... admittably, on an unchained server. But it <i>was</i> lots of fun... marines requesting scans here and there, hunting out that SC, making sure there's an observatory at key points. We won, by the way, and it was glorious... 'good games" were declared from both sides, and we both meant it.
An interesting SIDEEFFECT of unchaining the chambers is that you get the most balanced NS we've seen in a while, don't know why this is, since it was a random element not selected for the purposes of balancing and yet it rebalanced the game anyway. Almost a perfect 50/50 win loss ratio on TacticalGamer after more than twelve hundred games. Now THAT'S what I call balance. Never had anything like that before.
Balance AND gameplay AND fun. What more could you possibly ask for?
Please, please, please, PLAY the Unchained servers before knocking this. Please read the actual game statistics. Please play as both aliens and marines on the server. Ask yourself, "Did I just have more fun?" when you do. Ask the other players on that server what they think of the plug in. Make no predictions when you can empirically veryify.
I honestly don't see how it could be balanced. But from my standpoint, it shouldn't be. I will play on one of the unchained servers and get back to you.
i say, we put this in the next version. Not beta 5. This is a big change. Big changes should come in big packages. version 4.0 beta 1. if ther eis one. HL2 coming out this year soon. Sepetember. soo...i dont think we should get another beta 5 with big changes.
Comments
HL Rally IS EXCELLENT! Nice Graphics, even comes with a real working RADIO ingame! but NOONE plays it... Beautiful racing game on half life...
Sven Coop is fun as well, but rarely anyone plays it... play half life cooperatively with PEOPLE!
New mods are shadowed <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I personally think that SC should offer Silence and Cloaking those in its radius... Espically for hives as Commanders all to often easily can find the hive by simply moving their view over to hive locations and "listening" which if we look at the stories which establish NS "nano-gridlock" certainly wouldn't allow this to happen as the best the "nano-flush" in a system is reveal the map of the station.
I personally see that if even this LITTLE change was to happen in the current NS that might just affect game tactics as well.. However... I still agree that a FULL unchaining and the original idea purposed by Ryo-Ohki sounds like the best idea I've heard in a long time.
However, not sure about the SC change. Commanders should find the hive in the first 20 seconds, not nearly enough time to gorge and drop a chamber. And by the time the second hive is going up, a quick ping of the hives provides all the information needed...
It would also make the "silence" upgrade far less used, and further devalue the MC itself. If you can get silence without MC, that's 1/4 of its use already. (1/5 if you count the energy boost, but that's only significant in the end game AR spamming of MS really.)
exspecially with "inexperianced" players who never see SC's cause the game finishes early and when they try them out they get kciked or yelled at or banned
While that would be the ideal situation, that would require a lot more work that just unchaining them. This simple change brings that Unknown element back into the game, diversifying the Kharaa game, and allowing for a far more FUN game.
Yes, tweaks will need to be made, most notably to the Sensory chambers AOE cloaking, probably just by reducing the radius by 30-50%
Things I think that would have to be tweaked if the Unchaining were to become offically supported:
<ul><li>Reduce cloaking range of sensories, somewhere between 30-50% of current radius</li><li>Do the same for Defense and Movement AOE ranges</li><li>Movements can only teleport to FULLY constructed hives. A building hive under attack cannot be warped to. However a active one can.</li><li>Reduce the cost of Observatories by 5 resources. Leave the cost (energy) of Scan the same.</li><li>Probably a couple of tweaks I'm missing.</li></ul>
Would those changes be implementable in the current Unchain Mod that is out? Too see how it works?
Or you could just get your commander to ping, get motion tracking, or build an observatory.
The radius is already pretty small.
I will ask mE
Well, a ping reveals everything thats cloaked anyway, but I like the Damaged-Cloak disruption idea.
Doesn't sound so much as a nerf as a counter to Sensory chambers. Regardless, me likey. Structures cloaked by SCs should be uncloaked too, in my opinion... though I have the feeling you were alluding to this already, Thor-Stryker.
I think this thread cannot be ignored; too much support. Anti-DMs in Ns beta5 you think? <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I think this thread cannot be ignored; too much support. Anti-DMs in Ns beta5 you think? <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Rude? yeah ok um..sure
Informing him of an idea that an awful lot of the community support is not rude, and besides, something like this would have to be decided by him anyway.
"It's time to evolve"
I am sitting on the fence. Rawr.
1) Primary, main point. Stop saying "would" or any other future predicting term. Go and PLAY it first. You don't need to wait for it to be put in. Go PLAY IT. Then come back. Tell me with a straight face that marines get owned, that they have no fun. The stats from 1200 games on an unchained server came in, just look down the forum a bit, and you'll see that the win/loss ratio is very close to 50/50 with a standard deviation of between 3-5%. That's practically the very definition of balanced.
2) Were you around for the first release of 2.0? Did you know that at that time, EVERYONE started making sensories FIRST, and that there were a half-dozen threads on this very board posted about how broken and unbalanced sensory was then? And do you know what happened next? Instead of a patch, marines started scanning, and placing observatories, and suddenly the aliens discovered that their killer cloaking was made worthless, and they couldn't change their upgrade without another hive, and so things reverted once more to DMS.
History folks. Learn it or be doomed to repeat it. Sensory is valuble early game, yes, but then it is COUNTERABLE. And DESTROYABLE.
I did not realize servers had implemented this because I thought this thread was requesting it to be implemented, not actually doing so.
About your "sensory strat" from 2.0, I shall quote you...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->EVERYONE started making sensories FIRST, and that there were a half-dozen threads on this very board posted about how broken and unbalanced sensory was then? And do you know what happened next? Instead of a patch, marines started scanning, and placing observatories, and suddenly the aliens discovered that their killer cloaking was made worthless, and <b>they couldn't change their upgrade without another hive</b>...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
EXACTLY! That is what made the sensory counterable. With the chambers unlocked, they could just switch to defense whenever they wanted. Thus, sensory could become incredibly deadly, marines would react to the sensory, then aliens would switch over to defense and all that res would be wasted on counter-attacking the sensory.
And P.S. I'll use whatever verb tense I want to! Mwahahahahahahahahahahaha!
No, that's what made sensory worthless.
No, that's what made sensory worthless. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
More specifically, it's what made sensory so easily counterable with so little effort by the marines that ANYTHING ELSE would be better. Remember, we're asking for this to provide DIVERSITY IN PLAY. Tell me, when was the last time you saw sensory first in this game? Did you win? Did you even have fun?
Tell me, as marines, when was the last time the aliens used sensory first on you? Did you win? Did you have fun?
In my experience, the answers to those questions are "A few weeks ago, when some lamer came in and tried to ruin the game. We lost miserably, barely able to put up the second hive and grab some DCs before it was taken down again, but we were already too far behind. We had no fun at all, as we were demolished at every turn. We didn't have the resources to put up a sensory network, and the few places we were cloaked got scanned and taken out. Focus didn't even help once they got armor.
On the other side, last time I played marines where aliens got sensory first was... admittably, on an unchained server. But it <i>was</i> lots of fun... marines requesting scans here and there, hunting out that SC, making sure there's an observatory at key points. We won, by the way, and it was glorious... 'good games" were declared from both sides, and we both meant it.
An interesting SIDEEFFECT of unchaining the chambers is that you get the most balanced NS we've seen in a while, don't know why this is, since it was a random element not selected for the purposes of balancing and yet it rebalanced the game anyway. Almost a perfect 50/50 win loss ratio on TacticalGamer after more than twelve hundred games. Now THAT'S what I call balance. Never had anything like that before.
Balance AND gameplay AND fun. What more could you possibly ask for?
Please, please, please, PLAY the Unchained servers before knocking this. Please read the actual game statistics. Please play as both aliens and marines on the server. Ask yourself, "Did I just have more fun?" when you do. Ask the other players on that server what they think of the plug in. Make no predictions when you can empirically veryify.