the one thing that really ticks me off is that NO ONE goes gorge in the beginning, and then we have to wait like 50 rounds before everyone dies and we have a nub gorge running around and gets killed.... sounds like fun eh? <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> i think there should be a system of plugins in the game that picks out a random person on the aliens in the beginning of the game, and forces them to gestate into the gorge form becuase out of all seriousness, this is pathetic, 20+ skulks, 2 fades, 4+ oni, and 1 gorge... what the hell is that??? thats pathetic. i really think the dev. team should do something about it : /
<!--QuoteBegin-BlackPlague+Sep 28 2004, 11:30 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BlackPlague @ Sep 28 2004, 11:30 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> i think there should be a system of plugins in the game that picks out a random person on the aliens in the beginning of the game, and forces them to gestate into the gorge form becuase out of all seriousness, this is pathetic, 20+ skulks, 2 fades, 4+ oni, and 1 gorge... what the hell is that??? thats pathetic. i really think the dev. team should do something about it : /<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> That is the choice of the players and the servers you play on TBH and is not the Devs responsibility. They can only balance the game, the players have the choice as to whether there are balanced amounts of lifeforms. On the servers I play on people work as a team and nearly all bar 1 or 2 get res/hives/upgrades to start off with. Any game that doesnt will very often result in an alien loss if the marines can vaguely shoot straight or work as a team.
honestly making it so that there is a perma gorge again would be a very easy way to fix these problems. its a guaranteed that there will be someone that can gorge or can help someone gorge. however its not guaranteed that the entire team will be willing to help by gorging, dropping res, dropping hive, dropping chamber and getting a higher lifeform later. its much easier to have one person do all of those things and it is also a lot funner if only one person has to do all those things.
aliens are not suppose require more team work than the marines and as of now they do. its even harder since there is no one person directing everything that is happening.
i mean even if you have to make it so whoever goes gorge has to be gorge all game, someone is going to do it and is going to be more willing to do so. because honestly experienced players are having to not drop chambers, hives, res, etc. because they if they aren't fade (and kill marines and marine rts) at 5 min the aliens are screwed.
basically what im getting at is making it perma-gorge makes it a lot easier for people to understand how the game works. instead of evolving to gorge, dropping res (hive or chamber too), die/evolve to skulk, kill, get res, evolve to fade. obviously save res, go fade is much easier to comprehend and makes it so newbs can play the game easier. as of right now the learning curve for the game is too high and it also makes any alien team that doesn't have an average ability over the curve lose.
heres a one sentence summary: <b>the aliens are too complicated (and too demanding) to play.</b>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Aliens with only one hive are too weak in late game, thus no chance of comeback. This is because everything is tied to the number of hives, leading to very unflexible system.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
true, but how would you balance this? compare 1 hive aliens with, say, lmg marines with lvl 1 upgrades, maybe lvl2 weapons. put them against 3-hive aliens with all chambers and lifeforms. ouch.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->1 marine >> Any chamber, thus aliens have no static defence and this allows marine comebacks, especially if you think the next point too.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
oc's must be guarded by skulks and healed by dc's/gorges to be of any use. throw in a lerk and you have a position which counters anything but sieges/gl. by which time you should have fades.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Marine tech == Permanent >> Alien tech == fluid like water in a toilet.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
well, chamber and hive upgrades are available unless the thing providing them dies. the same is with protolab/upg. armory. true that marine buildings can be replaced much more easily, but hey the teams are meant to be "not-symmetric"? someone give me the cooler word for that.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The smaller the game, the less starting res they get, thus advanced life-forms come up later and/or everything depends of a few players.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
this is false because the less alien players there is the faster they gain res. ns is balanced for 6 vs 6.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The bigger the game, the bigger team benefits marines get (Ranged >> Melee).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
true, because of scaled alien res system + rfk, and to an extend the universal marine upgrades.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Map full of marine RTs + easily replaced by any marine = the win. If aliens try to chew them down (...tedious...), it leaves the team short of 1-3 players.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
that is why you have the skulks who kill rt's and fades who kill marines. 1 fade can hold marines at least as good as 4 skulks
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If there is a free RT, Someone has to go gorge. Too bad that Someone just took a break and returns five minutes before HA-train shreds the first and last hive.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
im not sure what you mean by this... but its not always smart to drop a free rt. for example on tanith unless you control waste dropping double res or west access is pretty much a waste. on aliens i mean.
it's been said before and it'll propably (but not hopefully) be said for another while: >16 player pubs are not the ultimate ns experience nor are they the finest example of how balanced this game is.
im not saying aliens shouldnt necessarily need some kind of buff, just pointing things out.
I'm not saying that aliens should be balanced in a situation like that. What I'm saying that they need some kind of an edge to make it possible to achieve comeback and not just spawn-die-rot until rines have had enough fun. Tweaked bile bomb, for example, at one hive would be perfect for that.
As to the chambers, what is the point of building them then? If they still require support from other life-forms, they do not free resources but BIND them. Think about it: "automated self-defence turret that needs manual support." <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->that is why you have the skulks who kill rt's and fades who kill marines. 1 fade can hold marines at least as good as 4 skulks<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Let's assume this: rines rush to take RT's and they succeed capping 5 out of 10 (very likely, when just one marine can proceed unhindered). Then they all die and respawn. Now, 6 RTs bring a whole lot of res per tick and are totalling about 12,000 HP. How much damage did one skulk do? Rines have more than enough time to upgrade before that fade and rush back to save those RTs (or siege a hive -those skulks are elsewhere, remember?). Even if they lose one, they can replace it quickly (yay, more chewing!) and go right away back to keeping skulks at bay.
Perma-gorges == bad idea, which means that Someone has to go gorge to build every time you want something. That is 10 res wasted per evolve and discourages building stuff when Someone can do it anyway.
Pwnt. No, serisouly. I think the aliens are fine right now. It's quite fair from 4v4 to 8v8. 6v6 is the best but on most servers theres no such games. Usually its 8v8 when marines have a slight advantage but not too much. Remember that more there are marines, the more there are (or should be) higher lifeforms. Res flow can be tricky though, depending how many gorges at the beginning of the round. More gorges = more res. More res = faster fades and hives. etc. etc.
I miss when skulks started with 30 armor <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I miss when skulks started with 30 armor<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Marines would be in serious trouble when hive 2 comes up, if the armor were that high. 5 more armor points would do no harm, though... IMO, the problem still is that everything depends of the number of the hives. Armor, abilities, chambers, upgrades, everything.
I'd disagree, I think res nodes are too important to aliens. One possible solution is to have the hives supply some additional res. Resource nodes should be important to marines, but for aliens who already have to take and hold 3 points on the map they should be less important. As of right now, how many resource towers does an alien team need in comparison to the marine team? Because for an alien every tower is a major chunk of resources.
-defense upgrades should be more effective for lower lifeforms because IMO its pointless to buy carapace or regeneration for skulks, lerks regen is somewhat preferrable over redemp depending on what weapons the marines use, but carapace is unheard of unless the marines have lvl1 lmgs
Comments
That is the choice of the players and the servers you play on TBH and is not the Devs responsibility. They can only balance the game, the players have the choice as to whether there are balanced amounts of lifeforms. On the servers I play on people work as a team and nearly all bar 1 or 2 get res/hives/upgrades to start off with. Any game that doesnt will very often result in an alien loss if the marines can vaguely shoot straight or work as a team.
aliens are not suppose require more team work than the marines and as of now they do. its even harder since there is no one person directing everything that is happening.
i mean even if you have to make it so whoever goes gorge has to be gorge all game, someone is going to do it and is going to be more willing to do so. because honestly experienced players are having to not drop chambers, hives, res, etc. because they if they aren't fade (and kill marines and marine rts) at 5 min the aliens are screwed.
basically what im getting at is making it perma-gorge makes it a lot easier for people to understand how the game works. instead of evolving to gorge, dropping res (hive or chamber too), die/evolve to skulk, kill, get res, evolve to fade. obviously save res, go fade is much easier to comprehend and makes it so newbs can play the game easier. as of right now the learning curve for the game is too high and it also makes any alien team that doesn't have an average ability over the curve lose.
heres a one sentence summary:
<b>the aliens are too complicated (and too demanding) to play.</b>
true, but how would you balance this? compare 1 hive aliens with, say, lmg marines with lvl 1 upgrades, maybe lvl2 weapons. put them against 3-hive aliens with all chambers and lifeforms. ouch.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->1 marine >> Any chamber, thus aliens have no static defence and this allows marine comebacks, especially if you think the next point too.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
oc's must be guarded by skulks and healed by dc's/gorges to be of any use. throw in a lerk and you have a position which counters anything but sieges/gl. by which time you should have fades.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Marine tech == Permanent >> Alien tech == fluid like water in a toilet.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
well, chamber and hive upgrades are available unless the thing providing them dies. the same is with protolab/upg. armory. true that marine buildings can be replaced much more easily, but hey the teams are meant to be "not-symmetric"? someone give me the cooler word for that.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The smaller the game, the less starting res they get, thus advanced life-forms come up later and/or everything depends of a few players.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
this is false because the less alien players there is the faster they gain res. ns is balanced for 6 vs 6.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The bigger the game, the bigger team benefits marines get (Ranged >> Melee).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
true, because of scaled alien res system + rfk, and to an extend the universal marine upgrades.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Map full of marine RTs + easily replaced by any marine = the win. If aliens try to chew them down (...tedious...), it leaves the team short of 1-3 players.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
that is why you have the skulks who kill rt's and fades who kill marines. 1 fade can hold marines at least as good as 4 skulks
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If there is a free RT, Someone has to go gorge. Too bad that Someone just took a break and returns five minutes before HA-train shreds the first and last hive.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
im not sure what you mean by this... but its not always smart to drop a free rt. for example on tanith unless you control waste dropping double res or west access is pretty much a waste. on aliens i mean.
it's been said before and it'll propably (but not hopefully) be said for another while: >16 player pubs are not the ultimate ns experience nor are they the finest example of how balanced this game is.
im not saying aliens shouldnt necessarily need some kind of buff, just pointing things out.
I'm not saying that aliens should be balanced in a situation like that. What I'm saying that they need some kind of an edge to make it possible to achieve comeback and not just spawn-die-rot until rines have had enough fun. Tweaked bile bomb, for example, at one hive would be perfect for that.
As to the chambers, what is the point of building them then? If they still require support from other life-forms, they do not free resources but BIND them. Think about it: "automated self-defence turret that needs manual support." <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->that is why you have the skulks who kill rt's and fades who kill marines. 1 fade can hold marines at least as good as 4 skulks<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Let's assume this: rines rush to take RT's and they succeed capping 5 out of 10 (very likely, when just one marine can proceed unhindered). Then they all die and respawn. Now, 6 RTs bring a whole lot of res per tick and are totalling about 12,000 HP. How much damage did one skulk do? Rines have more than enough time to upgrade before that fade and rush back to save those RTs (or siege a hive -those skulks are elsewhere, remember?). Even if they lose one, they can replace it quickly (yay, more chewing!) and go right away back to keeping skulks at bay.
Perma-gorges == bad idea, which means that Someone has to go gorge to build every time you want something. That is 10 res wasted per evolve and discourages building stuff when Someone can do it anyway.
this is false because the less alien players there is the faster they gain res. ns is balanced for 6 vs 6.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hey, that's part of the problem! I hate playing small games. I pretty much only game on servers that are 7 vs 7 or above.
Marines would be in serious trouble when hive 2 comes up, if the armor were that high. 5 more armor points would do no harm, though... IMO, the problem still is that everything depends of the number of the hives. Armor, abilities, chambers, upgrades, everything.
-reduce shotgun damage lvl ups
-skulks need their old armor level
-hmg reduce damage by 1 or decrease accuracy
-defense upgrades should be more effective for lower lifeforms
because IMO its pointless to buy carapace or regeneration for skulks, lerks regen is somewhat preferrable over redemp depending on what weapons the marines use, but carapace is unheard of unless the marines have lvl1 lmgs