I would just like to throw in a few comments right now. First off, here is a piece of a log from a member of a new clan that just formed, called b1rd. I have never heard of these guys, but from having spoken to them on IRC and scheduling their sessions for 3 fades, 2 lerks, and 5 skulks, they have overall been very nice people. Anyway, at just the right time, he asked me a question. "Why are you guys doing this?". My first impression was to just link him to this thread, but I didn't want to make him read this whole thing for a simple point. So here's the log.
[ 3:38:04 ] <Pel1can> Hey [ 3:38:15 ] <Prodigy^_^> howdy [ 3:38:31 ] <Pel1can> i posted on the forum and made an irc #b1rd [ 3:38:43 ] <Prodigy^_^> excellent, now we can schedule you guys [ 3:39:00 ] <Pel1can> ok will you tell me our times via irc [ 3:39:01 ] <Prodigy^_^> do you guys have any ideas for available times for you? I haven't read the post on the forums yet by the way =P [ 3:39:07 ] <Prodigy^_^> no you tell us times =P [ 3:39:25 ] <Pel1can> well any time after 4:00 on weekdays and any afternoon to night times on weekends [ 3:39:40 ] <Prodigy^_^> good [ 3:39:42 ] <Pel1can> central btw [ 3:39:45 ] <Prodigy^_^> no prob [ 3:41:36 ] <Pel1can> and you guys are welcome to join our vent or 20 man NS server anytime <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> the ips are on our irc [ 3:42:40 ] <Prodigy^_^> =P thanks alot =D [ 3:43:40 ] <Pel1can> can i ask a question? [ 3:44:13 ] <Prodigy^_^> sure [ 3:44:40 ] <Pel1can> Why? [ 3:44:57 ] <Pel1can> do you guys do this [ 3:46:05 ] <Prodigy^_^> NS needs this [ 3:46:07 ] <Prodigy^_^> more than anything [ 3:46:12 ] <Prodigy^_^> the game is going downhill [ 3:46:18 ] <Pel1can> is it? [ 3:46:29 ] <Prodigy^_^> and this is a game we all love, and play on a regular basis [ 3:46:46 ] <Prodigy^_^> we want to see the clanscene promote, and we want to see more skilled players [ 3:47:35 ] <Prodigy^_^> we've seen a lot of bad players and clans just quit the game, because they've been stomped by good players, and with ns in the situation it is now.. this (nslearn) is just aiding in the recovery [ 3:48:49 ] <Pel1can> what situation is that [ 3:50:55 ] <Prodigy^_^> NS is an excellent game with great potential, and with every build that is released, after very long periods of needing the release, there are merely minor fixes, and the bugs that NEED fixed, don't get fixed for a long time. Therefore, NS seems to have almost hit a dead stop, and a complete seperation between good players and the average pubber, and a huge lack of balance in the game contributes to this. [ 3:51:07 ] <Prodigy^_^> Thus, NS is losing many of it [ 3:51:12 ] <Prodigy^_^> -it's best players. [ 3:51:48 ] <Prodigy^_^> The lack of balance, is from a lack of skill amongst playtesters, and a partially inactive developer team. [ 3:52:30 ] <Prodigy^_^> Nobody wants to fix natural selection from the state it's in now, and their newest developer created mp_blockscripts, which was a big thing, but somewhat biased, don't you think? [ 3:52:45 ] <Prodigy^_^> not created... fixed
I appreciate everyone, sano, adj, and lorn especially, who are aiding in this, and I hope for the best to come from this thread, and for NS to finally be recognized for the game it is, and amount to the game it could and should be. I greatly hope that a veteren program or something similar, which I have seen forlorn's ideas, and I think could work, is implemented. NS needs some sort of unmounted talent behind the wheel, such as newer veterens, and not just a few. As well as needing the brains and willpower of these new veterens and present PT's. This is an excellent step towards a more prodcutive game, and I am greatly excited, and await the outcome and final say. =D
Most of the current PTs are too obsessed with bringing back 1.04 to try and balance beta6. The fact is this: we cannot balance a game as complex as NS without a group of players who push the game to it's limit. About 5% of the current PT group meets this criteria. Changes are being made based off this 5% decimating the other 95% despite having several MAJOR and UNBALANCING factors stacked againist them.
I won't give specifics but most of the PTs are not skilled enough to capatalise on some of the changes we're testing, they're only playing half the game, half the change. They do not understand what they've got available to them and just a FEW skilled players would absolutely decimate a 10 player team - the same 10 player team that with the same unbalancing features would lose despite having more players.
I'll give you an example from a non-b6 change. Lets think back to the free lerk flight phenomian. Remember how everyone thought it'd be great? Lerks would be more viable, could spore more, could escape easier, everything nice and happy and it couldn't possibly lead to any exploits. ERR WRONG. Takes one clanner, one experienced player with this change to decimate an entire team easily with pancaking.
Inexperienced players simply cannot pick up on what certain changes are capable of, you're only playing half the game and it takes the more experienced player who pushes NS to it's max to balance. We simply can't balanced the game with the current group of PTs.
tankefuglOne Script To Rule Them All...Trondheim, NorwayJoin Date: 2002-11-14Member: 8641Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
Ok, this is I suggest for you guys if you want to be heard concerning changes to NS (you seem to be a tight-knit group, right?):
Get together and write down your suggested changes. Back them up with analytic argumentation. Don't bother with anecdotes etc.
Then post them in a single post/thread in I&S as your collective contribution to what you fell needs to be done.
As I&S is now, I'm sure it will be read and taken into consideration. I also belive that you might have ideas that could contribute to NS. And it is a billion times more productive than this highly flamable thread.
<!--QuoteBegin-Mr.Ben+Oct 20 2004, 03:27 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mr.Ben @ Oct 20 2004, 03:27 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Most of the current PTs are too obsessed with bringing back 1.04 to try and balance beta6. The fact is this: we cannot balance a game as complex as NS without a group of players who push the game to it's limit. About 5% of the current PT group meets this criteria. Changes are being made based off this 5% decimating the other 95% despite having several MAJOR and UNBALANCING factors stacked againist them.
I won't give specifics but most of the PTs are not skilled enough to capatalise on some of the changes we're testing, they're only playing half the game, half the change. They do not understand what they've got available to them and if roles were reserved, just a few skilled players would absolutely decimate a 10 player team - the same 10 player team that with the same unbalancing features would lose even with more players.
I'll give you an example from a non-b6 change. Lets think back to the free lerk flight phenomian. Remember how everyone thought it'd be great? Lerks would be more viable, could spore more, could escape easier, everything nice and happy and it couldn't possibly lead to any exploits. ERR WRONG. Takes one clanner, one experienced player with this change to decimate an entire team easily with pancaking.
Inexperienced players simply cannot pick up on what certain changes are capable of, you're only playing half the game and it takes the more experienced player who pushes NS to it's max to balance. We simply can't balanced the game with the current group of PTs. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Since this is comming from a play tester, I have to sorta belive what he says. This to me is desturbing news.
I belive tank is right though. We realy do need to make a group of people to collectivly find data, analyze it. and bring it all to zunni. but we would also need someone to lead these people.
<!--QuoteBegin-tankefugl+Oct 20 2004, 04:28 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (tankefugl @ Oct 20 2004, 04:28 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Ok, this is I suggest for you guys if you want to be heard concerning changes to NS (you seem to be a tight-knit group, right?):
Get together and write down your suggested changes. Back them up with analytic argumentation. Don't bother with anecdotes etc.
Then post them in a single post/thread in I&S as your collective contribution to what you fell needs to be done.
As I&S is now, I'm sure it will be read and taken into consideration. I also belive that you might have ideas that could contribute to NS. And it is a billion times more productive than this highly flamable thread. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Changes that we feel are important that aren't implemented right now isn't the main concern, instead it is the product of what our main concern is. The main concern is the way the community is right now. It is true that this is highly flammable but the truth has to be known what is going on with the community, especially with those who are suppose to be highly respected and looked at as a guide on the direction NS is going right now.
There are a few competitive players who have added their input in the I&S forums and continue to do so, but the other problem is a big one that needs to be fixed. We can't just turn a blind eye and hope that the problem goes away.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->On the other hand, you have people getting leaked bits of out-of-context information that may or may not be true, and completely flipping out about it. A bit of a contradiction, yes? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Are you saying I am not telling the truth? I have no reasons to lie. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm not saying anything. I respect the fact that the devs don't want current PT build changes being spread out to the public, likely to avoid the problems of people going overboard (with love for an idea or hate for an idea) over something that may not ever see the light of day. So my comment is, of course, no comment.
I respect the other problem being brought up here. I understand the feeling that new builds come out and the problems that people feel are killing the game seem to have been given no attention by the developers. All I can tell you on that is that PTs don't get to tell the devs what to work on. The most vocal of forum members don't get to tell the devs what to work on. Mods, admins, IRC ops -- no one gets to tell the devs what to work on, except for the devs. The PTs are given a build and test it, mainly searching for bugs and balance problems. PT ideas aren't given special consideration over an idea that goes through the normal I&S channels.
The role of someone to act as a go-between from the community to the devs and back has been implemented. Zunni is that person. He's doing a damned good job, in my opinion, and has gone a lot farther towards bridging that gap than we've seen in a while. So please do continue to share your ideas in a civilized manner. Believe it or not, people are listening and paying attention. But don't fall into the trap of thinking that your ideas are the most important ones. There are thousands of people in this community, and the vocal minority already gets a fair share of attention. But remember the silent majority, voting yea or nay on changes based simply on the fact that they keep playing the game. The game is being worked hard on for <i>all</i> of us, voluntarily I might add. Less self-righteous indignation and a bit more humble appreciation might be in order.
tankefuglOne Script To Rule Them All...Trondheim, NorwayJoin Date: 2002-11-14Member: 8641Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited October 2004
Most of what I've experienced so far as a playtester is <b>bughunting</b>. Sure, we've done some balancing feature tests, but I do not believe balance can EVER be reached on a gobal scale by testing within just a small group, no matter what skill level you put it on.
It seems to me that most of the balance testing is actually happening in the open beta, that is, the version we're all playing on any pub or in any clanwar. It's a much huger playing field, and has many more playing minutes than you could ever hope to reach in a closed group.
What I do think could help, though, is some form of organised feedback from the open beta test-field. But that would be very tedious.
<span style='color:orange'>Once again, I refer to my previous post where I suggested that you organise the input a bit, and present it in a well formulated way.</span> It really is the way to have your say.
(Well, disclaimer; I'm just a PT, not a dev, etc etc etc.)
tank i agree with you on the fact that there needs to be some sort of organization. The work of one person yelling is not working at all. But if we as a hole move in unison things would be better off.
Zunni has been working his **** off getting things together for us for a more organized response system. Now we need to take advantage of that. Those that have issues need to bond together and then give these large drawn out proposals to Zunni. He is really the only one that I can see at the moment that can go in and change the direction of the devs.
What ever happens to be able to get change strong over bearing emotion needs to subside. Right now its causing problems, coming across arrogant also has to be watched also to keep from insulting the devs and then they just throw it out.
Hey guys, I just went through the entire list of pts and collected the date of their last post. *diclaimer* the last post would not include posts in private forums, but it's expected that if they haven't posted in a pub forum for a while the same could be said about the private ones.
name last post (KCSA) Robert Paulson Posted on Jul 1 2004, 10:52 PM
Ahnteis Posted on Oct 19 2004, 09:07 PM
blueman Posted on Oct 19 2004, 11:48 AM
Brad R Posted on Oct 8 2004, 08:02 PM
Cadaver Posted on Oct 23 2003, 07:14 PM
CheesyPeteza Posted on Oct 12 2004, 05:52 AM
ChimpZealot Posted on Oct 19 2004, 06:52 PM
ChromeAngel Posted on Oct 12 2004, 03:29 PM
citixen Posted on Jan 20 2003, 07:19 AM
devilblocks Posted on Mar 19 2004, 04:55 AM
Diskord Posted on Jun 27 2004, 10:23 AM
disq Posted on Jan 15 2004, 08:42 AM
DoL | NeO Posted on Jul 30 2004, 07:01 AM
Drunken.Monkey Posted on Oct 19 2004, 06:06 AM
DrunkenBozo Posted on Oct 17 2004, 03:25 PM
eggmac Posted on: Oct 19 2004, 02:09 PM
Ekaj Posted on: Dec 13 2003, 02:52 AM
enem3 Posted on: Aug 19 2004, 07:55 AM *special comment* this post was a spam post. the one previous was Nov 11 2003, 01:32 AM
Eternal Bliss Posted on: Aug 11 2004, 07:25 AM
exoity Posted on: Oct 6 2004, 07:57 PM
FFT_Fangs Posted on: Apr 29 2004, 09:53 AM
FoR|BitchSLAP! Posted on: Aug 4 2003, 07:50 AM
HAMBONE Posted on: Oct 16 2004, 02:21 AM
hawthorne Posted on: Oct 16 2004, 10:01 PM
Heist Posted on: Apr 10 2004, 01:16 PM
Hida Tsuzua Posted on: Aug 26 2004, 07:20 PM
Hypergrip Posted on: Oct 18 2004, 02:29 AM
IAN-SDZ Posted on: Feb 25 2004, 12:35 PM
Injury Posted on: Nov 29 2003, 12:39 AM
inphinity: couldn't find his last post because they are in priv forums, but he has a grand total of THREE posts.
KaiserRoll Posted on: Aug 7 2004, 09:41 PM
ken20banks Posted on: Oct 18 2004, 01:40 PM
Keyser59 Posted on: Oct 11 2004, 10:52 PM
Khaim Posted on: Oct 20 2004, 09:05 AM
KungFuDiscoMonkey Posted on: Oct 19 2004, 12:56 PM
KungFuSquirrel Posted on: Oct 20 2004, 02:15 PM
lagger Posted on: Oct 20 2004, 03:56 AM
Lazer Posted on: Sep 16 2004, 08:19 AM
Licho Posted on: Oct 13 2004, 03:53 AM
Lightning Blue Posted on: Sep 5 2004, 12:37 AM
MagiTek Posted on: Jun 2 2004, 11:05 PM
manah Posted on: Nov 13 2003, 11:58 AM
Martigen Posted on: Mar 30 2004, 08:20 PM
Mendasp Posted on: Oct 20 2004, 02:49 PM
Mr.Ben Posted on: Oct 20 2004, 03:27 PM
MrPink Posted on: Sep 25 2004, 11:21 PM
Narfwak Posted on: Oct 20 2004, 10:06 AM
Necro- Posted on: Oct 20 2004, 02:58 PM
NeoMatrix99 Posted on: Sep 30 2004, 08:45 AM
othell Posted on: Oct 13 2004, 01:50 PM
pandas|churro Posted on: Mar 16 2004, 07:12 PM
pandas|RoQ Posted on: Jul 1 2004, 05:00 PM
Plaguebearer Posted on: Apr 30 2004, 09:22 AM
QUAD Posted on: Jul 27 2004, 01:27 AM
quazilin Posted on: Oct 10 2004, 05:17 AM
raiN Posted on: Jul 2 2004, 11:46 AM
regis Posted on: Sep 30 2004, 02:51 PM
remiCs Posted on: Dec 28 2002, 01:06 AM *total of 12 posts
romano^_^ Posted on: Aug 21 2004, 12:22 PM
Sarisel Posted on: Oct 20 2004, 12:30 AM *explained pshb.
Savant Posted on: Apr 26 2004, 02:30 PM
shanks Posted on: Oct 19 2004, 01:33 PM
Shockwave Posted on: Oct 20 2004, 06:40 AM
Silver Fox Posted on: Sep 4 2004, 04:44 PM
Sirus Posted on: Aug 22 2004, 10:48 PM
STEAMEDHAM Posted on: Sep 16 2004, 11:42 AM
tankefugl Posted on: Oct 20 2004, 03:44 PM
tommyd Posted on: Oct 19 2004, 12:07 PM
UGL|Andrew Posted on: Oct 13 2004, 09:56 AM
Vadakill Posted on: Oct 14 2004, 03:05 PM
Verthandi Posted on: Oct 20 2004, 08:01 AM
Wither Posted on: Oct 19 2004, 02:11 AM
Yamazaki Posted on: Sep 2 2004, 03:29 PM
Zazi Posted on: Oct 9 2004, 09:49 PM
Zoc Posted on: Aug 25 2004, 08:59 AM
[DR]HUGO Posted on: Feb 16 2003, 08:20 AM
[FFT]SpaceMoogle5 Posted on: Oct 19 2004, 05:59 PM
[Qoh] Kotone Posted on: Dec 30 2003, 02:21 AM * total of 11 posts
[SiD]Squishy Posted on: Oct 18 2004, 01:23 AM
[SuB] Posted on: Sep 15 2004, 11:30 AM
There are quite a few people who have not posted in a pub forum since 2003....
GrendelAll that is fear...Join Date: 2002-07-19Member: 970Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, NS2 Playtester
edited October 2004
<!--QuoteBegin-Mr.Ben+Oct 20 2004, 09:27 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mr.Ben @ Oct 20 2004, 09:27 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Most of the current PTs are too obsessed with bringing back 1.04 to try and balance beta6. The fact is this: we cannot balance a game as complex as NS without a group of players who push the game to it's limit. About 5% of the current PT group meets this criteria. Changes are being made based off this 5% decimating the other 95% despite having several MAJOR and UNBALANCING factors stacked againist them.
I won't give specifics but most of the PTs are not skilled enough to capatalise on some of the changes we're testing, they're only playing half the game, half the change. They do not understand what they've got available to them and just a FEW skilled players would absolutely decimate a 10 player team - the same 10 player team that with the same unbalancing features would lose despite having more players.
I'll give you an example from a non-b6 change. Lets think back to the free lerk flight phenomian. Remember how everyone thought it'd be great? Lerks would be more viable, could spore more, could escape easier, everything nice and happy and it couldn't possibly lead to any exploits. ERR WRONG. Takes one clanner, one experienced player with this change to decimate an entire team easily with pancaking.
Inexperienced players simply cannot pick up on what certain changes are capable of, you're only playing half the game and it takes the more experienced player who pushes NS to it's max to balance. We simply can't balanced the game with the current group of PTs. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'd like to know how you come to this conclusion with your current ZERO attendance at scheduled PTs.
Oh yes and with regards to PT activity, it should be noted that:
a) The PT Leads can't change who is part of the PT group without the assistance of others. I used to be able to, but I still had to get everything checked by Charlie first.
b) The PT group is not just PTs, but people who require PT Forum or test build access. That included Beta Server Operators, Mappers and other assorted VIPs (CAL admins etc.).
But feel free to keep on jumping to conclusions. I've long got past the point where I expect anything but abuse for spending 2 years working on the game.
<!--QuoteBegin-Grendel+Oct 20 2004, 04:09 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Grendel @ Oct 20 2004, 04:09 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'd like to know how you come to this conclusion with your current ZERO attendance at scheduled PTs.
Oh yes and with regards to PT activity, it should be noted that:
a) The PT Leads can't change who is part of the PT group without the assistance of others. I used to be able to, but I still had to get everything checked by Charlie first.
b) The PT group is not just PTs, but people who require PT Forum or test build access. That included Beta Server Operators, Mappers and other assorted VIPs (CAL admins etc.).
But feel free to keep on jumping to conclusions. I've long got past the point where I expect anything but abuse for spending 2 years working on the game. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Ow. That's a burn.
Nice edit, though.
We <3 you. Squish the bugs, worry about balance later.
<!--QuoteBegin-Grendel+Oct 20 2004, 04:09 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Grendel @ Oct 20 2004, 04:09 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Oh yes and with regards to PT activity, it should be noted that:
a) The PT Leads can't change who is part of the PT group without the assistance of others. I used to be able to, but I still had to get everything checked by Charlie first.
b) The PT group is not just PTs, but people who require PT Forum or test build access. That included Beta Server Operators, Mappers and other assorted VIPs (CAL admins etc.).
But feel free to keep on jumping to conclusions. I've long got past the point where I expect anything but abuse for spending 2 years working on the game. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Posting info != jumping to conclusions.
Alibino the truth is that people do strictly post in the private forums over the general discussion, this place is shunned by the elite of the NS community.
Still waiting on Redford's positive contributions to NS.
tankefuglOne Script To Rule Them All...Trondheim, NorwayJoin Date: 2002-11-14Member: 8641Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
No, I'm not trying to wage a personal war, I'm trying to understand Redford and what appears to be the "majorities" stance. Since I am in the wrong and I have no clue as to what I do wrong, dispite almost all of my actions being in favor of NS, I really do have no clue.
I'm requesting examples, there is no offense in that.
InsaneAnomalyJoin Date: 2002-05-13Member: 605Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Subnautica Developer, Pistachionauts, Future Perfect Developer
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Oct 20 2004, 09:27 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Oct 20 2004, 09:27 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Alibino the truth is that people do strictly post in the private forums over the general discussion, this place is shunned by the elite of the NS community. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Okay thanks for that info, I'd better go and start posting in private forums more so that I can live up to such an indisputable truth.
<!--QuoteBegin-Insane+Oct 20 2004, 04:38 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Insane @ Oct 20 2004, 04:38 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Oct 20 2004, 09:27 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Oct 20 2004, 09:27 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Alibino the truth is that people do strictly post in the private forums over the general discussion, this place is shunned by the elite of the NS community. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Okay thanks for that info, I'd better go and start posting in private forums more so that I can live up to such an indisputable truth. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Dude it's no secret, after all the privite sections hold more importance as their influence is greater, if I had a choice of a limited number of posts (aka time) I'd place the private forums over the general ones.
And when was the last time you posted in the general forums insane...?
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Oct 20 2004, 05:43 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Oct 20 2004, 05:43 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Insane+Oct 20 2004, 04:38 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Insane @ Oct 20 2004, 04:38 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Oct 20 2004, 09:27 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Oct 20 2004, 09:27 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Alibino the truth is that people do strictly post in the private forums over the general discussion, this place is shunned by the elite of the NS community. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Okay thanks for that info, I'd better go and start posting in private forums more so that I can live up to such an indisputable truth. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Dude it's no secret, after all the privite sections hold more importance as their influence is greater, if I had a choice of a limited number of posts (aka time) I'd place the private forums over the general ones. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> By the look of this thread, they've made a good choice <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Oct 20 2004, 05:48 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Oct 20 2004, 05:48 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Alkiller, they've made a good choice by ignoring issues untill they present themselves a blister such as this thread? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> No, but the way this thread represents them is... less than appealing.
I remember when the vets (1.1 vets, I guess) and PTs were first allowed to playtest together. It wasn't fun. And I don't mean it wasn't fun because I got killed a lot, or anything like that. I suck at FPSs, and am generally at the bottom of the scoreboard during PTs no matter who my opponent is. No, it wasn't fun because I would get yelled at. I'd make a mistake and get killed, or I wouldn't see a commander's order quickly enough, and these vets would yell at me for basically not being as good as they were. This was in no way an atmosphere conducive to proper playtesting. I'm not going to point fingers, though, as this was well over a year ago and I've since forgotten who it actually was.
Because of these experiences, I do not want to playtest with the vets. But at the same time, I fully realize that their opinions and views about the game are important and valid. Catch-22.
That being said, there is zero point in having vets join the playtesting ranks to offer balance feedback on fundamentally flawed game systems. Changes are introduced with every patch. Sometimes these changes work, and sometimes they don't. We can very often see this with the group of playtesters we have now. I feel that our job as playtesters should primarily be to find bugs and issues with the game, and to point out any blatantly obvious balance issues that need to be addressed with the new changes.
Now, obviously, we're a small group with a limited time fram for testing. We won't catch everything. But by the time we've gotten all the issues that we can find ironed out, it's usually been quite a while, and the public wants an update. I say we give it to them at this point.
And then here's where the vets should come in. I feel that there should be a number of vets chosen to offer balance feedback on the current build. A few weeks after the new build is out, their feedback should be taken into consideration, and a "balance patch" should be released.
Doing it this way should make everyone happy, and alleviate a number of concerns: -The public gets to play with something new, and then a couple weeks later they get to play with something balanced to tide them over until the next big patch. That makes them happy. -The vets get to offer their input about the game. That makes them happy. -I don't have to play with people who will chew me out for getting killed to quickly. This makes me happy. -If "Vet A" happens to be a very calm, articulate individual, but the rest of his clan is composed of jerks, then the PTs and devs don't have to deal with them. Certainly "Vet A" should ideally perform his best when he's on the same team as his clan, which he'll be able to do with the public release.
Basically, my suggestion boils down to this: 1. PTs go through the build and make sure there are no major bugs or issues. 2. Public release. 3. Selected vets offer their feedback on the build. 4. Balance patch.
Keep in mind, of course, that I'm just a forum mod who happened to make a map that went official. I don't have any control over the PT system, but I do understand that it does need a change.
Forlorn, you <span style='color:orange'>I was going to put in this space "I'm going to lock this thread because people are sure to use strong words to agree or disagree with this post, which should have been sent via PM if at all." Instead, I'm already late enough with this edit that someone has posted a quoting reply as I predicted. Time to go edit it out too.</span>
InsaneAnomalyJoin Date: 2002-05-13Member: 605Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Subnautica Developer, Pistachionauts, Future Perfect Developer
edited October 2004
My last post in General Discussion was on October 17. However, there's not much I feel I can contribute to General, and I'm just one person, so don't take me as representing the whole PT group. Nonetheless I still tend to post in public forums more often than private ones (mostly Mapping as that happens to be where most of my interest in NS lies).
Private forums aren't VIP clubs, they have a specific purpose and that's what they're used for.
You make a good case though it gets muddled by flamebait. It's cool to have both sides of the issue at each other's throat, but I don't get how some of you guys are using post counts as a point of wanting more skilled players as PT's. If you just wanted skill players, post counts shouldn't be taken into consideration so it's a moot point.
I agree to most of this by the way. I'm not going to call people various things and insult e-privates-sizes, but certainly more skilled players wouldn't hurt the PT of things. Fact of the matter is, though, that what Bob said is true. Concerning 3.0 final, suggesting balance changes is a no go from our side. Our hands are tied. We give feedback on changes, we give minor suggestions that could balance them, but suggesting them isn't something we can do. It's not the I&S of Eden where every change is followed by a dev taking your hand and saying WOW DUDE UR ROX YOUR SUGGESTION IS IN. Coding takes time. The devs have lives. That doesn't leave enough time for testing every suggestion made in the release time for the next product. If we did this, B6 would be out somewhere in mid 2005.
Uh yeah, now back to what I was saying. Skilled players wouldn't hurt the PT team. Now they just need to be able to give constructive feedback and think things out and they would be the perfect candidate. I'd say it's about 50/50, it's a rare sight finding non clanners that are the same way and I'd also say the current PT group that attends are half clanner half non. Perhaps some no longer clan, but they certainly are able to give feedback and think things out well. Note that if you have any suggestions for PT's, even though I have no say in adding any, I wouldn't mind seeing PM's suggesting people and reasons for doing so.
So yeah as a disclaimer, I'm a PT. Not a PT lead. Not a dev. Not the president. All I said up above was my personal opinion and does in no way reflect on the NS team, NS itself or any official NS figure. Thanks.
Comments
I would just like to throw in a few comments right now. First off, here is a piece of a log from a member of a new clan that just formed, called b1rd. I have never heard of these guys, but from having spoken to them on IRC and scheduling their sessions for 3 fades, 2 lerks, and 5 skulks, they have overall been very nice people. Anyway, at just the right time, he asked me a question. "Why are you guys doing this?". My first impression was to just link him to this thread, but I didn't want to make him read this whole thing for a simple point. So here's the log.
[ 3:38:04 ] <Pel1can> Hey
[ 3:38:15 ] <Prodigy^_^> howdy
[ 3:38:31 ] <Pel1can> i posted on the forum and made an irc #b1rd
[ 3:38:43 ] <Prodigy^_^> excellent, now we can schedule you guys
[ 3:39:00 ] <Pel1can> ok will you tell me our times via irc
[ 3:39:01 ] <Prodigy^_^> do you guys have any ideas for available times for you? I haven't read the post on the forums yet by the way =P
[ 3:39:07 ] <Prodigy^_^> no you tell us times =P
[ 3:39:25 ] <Pel1can> well any time after 4:00 on weekdays and any afternoon to night times on weekends
[ 3:39:40 ] <Prodigy^_^> good
[ 3:39:42 ] <Pel1can> central btw
[ 3:39:45 ] <Prodigy^_^> no prob
[ 3:41:36 ] <Pel1can> and you guys are welcome to join our vent or 20 man NS server anytime <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> the ips are on our irc
[ 3:42:40 ] <Prodigy^_^> =P thanks alot =D
[ 3:43:40 ] <Pel1can> can i ask a question?
[ 3:44:13 ] <Prodigy^_^> sure
[ 3:44:40 ] <Pel1can> Why?
[ 3:44:57 ] <Pel1can> do you guys do this
[ 3:46:05 ] <Prodigy^_^> NS needs this
[ 3:46:07 ] <Prodigy^_^> more than anything
[ 3:46:12 ] <Prodigy^_^> the game is going downhill
[ 3:46:18 ] <Pel1can> is it?
[ 3:46:29 ] <Prodigy^_^> and this is a game we all love, and play on a regular basis
[ 3:46:46 ] <Prodigy^_^> we want to see the clanscene promote, and we want to see more skilled players
[ 3:47:35 ] <Prodigy^_^> we've seen a lot of bad players and clans just quit the game, because they've been stomped by good players, and with ns in the situation it is now.. this (nslearn) is just aiding in the recovery
[ 3:48:49 ] <Pel1can> what situation is that
[ 3:50:55 ] <Prodigy^_^> NS is an excellent game with great potential, and with every build that is released, after very long periods of needing the release, there are merely minor fixes, and the bugs that NEED fixed, don't get fixed for a long time. Therefore, NS seems to have almost hit a dead stop, and a complete seperation between good players and the average pubber, and a huge lack of balance in the game contributes to this.
[ 3:51:07 ] <Prodigy^_^> Thus, NS is losing many of it
[ 3:51:12 ] <Prodigy^_^> -it's best players.
[ 3:51:48 ] <Prodigy^_^> The lack of balance, is from a lack of skill amongst playtesters, and a partially inactive developer team.
[ 3:52:30 ] <Prodigy^_^> Nobody wants to fix natural selection from the state it's in now, and their newest developer created mp_blockscripts, which was a big thing, but somewhat biased, don't you think?
[ 3:52:45 ] <Prodigy^_^> not created... fixed
I appreciate everyone, sano, adj, and lorn especially, who are aiding in this, and I hope for the best to come from this thread, and for NS to finally be recognized for the game it is, and amount to the game it could and should be. I greatly hope that a veteren program or something similar, which I have seen forlorn's ideas, and I think could work, is implemented. NS needs some sort of unmounted talent behind the wheel, such as newer veterens, and not just a few. As well as needing the brains and willpower of these new veterens and present PT's. This is an excellent step towards a more prodcutive game, and I am greatly excited, and await the outcome and final say. =D
I won't give specifics but most of the PTs are not skilled enough to capatalise on some of the changes we're testing, they're only playing half the game, half the change. They do not understand what they've got available to them and just a FEW skilled players would absolutely decimate a 10 player team - the same 10 player team that with the same unbalancing features would lose despite having more players.
I'll give you an example from a non-b6 change. Lets think back to the free lerk flight phenomian. Remember how everyone thought it'd be great? Lerks would be more viable, could spore more, could escape easier, everything nice and happy and it couldn't possibly lead to any exploits. ERR WRONG. Takes one clanner, one experienced player with this change to decimate an entire team easily with pancaking.
Inexperienced players simply cannot pick up on what certain changes are capable of, you're only playing half the game and it takes the more experienced player who pushes NS to it's max to balance. We simply can't balanced the game with the current group of PTs.
Get together and write down your suggested changes. Back them up with analytic argumentation. Don't bother with anecdotes etc.
Then post them in a single post/thread in I&S as your collective contribution to what you fell needs to be done.
As I&S is now, I'm sure it will be read and taken into consideration. I also belive that you might have ideas that could contribute to NS. And it is a billion times more productive than this highly flamable thread.
I won't give specifics but most of the PTs are not skilled enough to capatalise on some of the changes we're testing, they're only playing half the game, half the change. They do not understand what they've got available to them and if roles were reserved, just a few skilled players would absolutely decimate a 10 player team - the same 10 player team that with the same unbalancing features would lose even with more players.
I'll give you an example from a non-b6 change. Lets think back to the free lerk flight phenomian. Remember how everyone thought it'd be great? Lerks would be more viable, could spore more, could escape easier, everything nice and happy and it couldn't possibly lead to any exploits. ERR WRONG. Takes one clanner, one experienced player with this change to decimate an entire team easily with pancaking.
Inexperienced players simply cannot pick up on what certain changes are capable of, you're only playing half the game and it takes the more experienced player who pushes NS to it's max to balance. We simply can't balanced the game with the current group of PTs. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Since this is comming from a play tester, I have to sorta belive what he says. This to me is desturbing news.
I belive tank is right though. We realy do need to make a group of people to collectivly find data, analyze it. and bring it all to zunni. but we would also need someone to lead these people.
Get together and write down your suggested changes. Back them up with analytic argumentation. Don't bother with anecdotes etc.
Then post them in a single post/thread in I&S as your collective contribution to what you fell needs to be done.
As I&S is now, I'm sure it will be read and taken into consideration. I also belive that you might have ideas that could contribute to NS. And it is a billion times more productive than this highly flamable thread. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Changes that we feel are important that aren't implemented right now isn't the main concern, instead it is the product of what our main concern is. The main concern is the way the community is right now. It is true that this is highly flammable but the truth has to be known what is going on with the community, especially with those who are suppose to be highly respected and looked at as a guide on the direction NS is going right now.
There are a few competitive players who have added their input in the I&S forums and continue to do so, but the other problem is a big one that needs to be fixed. We can't just turn a blind eye and hope that the problem goes away.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->On the other hand, you have people getting leaked bits of out-of-context information that may or may not be true, and completely flipping out about it. A bit of a contradiction, yes?
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Are you saying I am not telling the truth? I have no reasons to lie. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not saying anything. I respect the fact that the devs don't want current PT build changes being spread out to the public, likely to avoid the problems of people going overboard (with love for an idea or hate for an idea) over something that may not ever see the light of day. So my comment is, of course, no comment.
I respect the other problem being brought up here. I understand the feeling that new builds come out and the problems that people feel are killing the game seem to have been given no attention by the developers. All I can tell you on that is that PTs don't get to tell the devs what to work on. The most vocal of forum members don't get to tell the devs what to work on. Mods, admins, IRC ops -- no one gets to tell the devs what to work on, except for the devs. The PTs are given a build and test it, mainly searching for bugs and balance problems. PT ideas aren't given special consideration over an idea that goes through the normal I&S channels.
The role of someone to act as a go-between from the community to the devs and back has been implemented. Zunni is that person. He's doing a damned good job, in my opinion, and has gone a lot farther towards bridging that gap than we've seen in a while. So please do continue to share your ideas in a civilized manner. Believe it or not, people are listening and paying attention. But don't fall into the trap of thinking that your ideas are the most important ones. There are thousands of people in this community, and the vocal minority already gets a fair share of attention. But remember the silent majority, voting yea or nay on changes based simply on the fact that they keep playing the game. The game is being worked hard on for <i>all</i> of us, voluntarily I might add. Less self-righteous indignation and a bit more humble appreciation might be in order.
It seems to me that most of the balance testing is actually happening in the open beta, that is, the version we're all playing on any pub or in any clanwar. It's a much huger playing field, and has many more playing minutes than you could ever hope to reach in a closed group.
What I do think could help, though, is some form of organised feedback from the open beta test-field. But that would be very tedious.
<span style='color:orange'>Once again, I refer to my previous post where I suggested that you organise the input a bit, and present it in a well formulated way.</span> It really is the way to have your say.
(Well, disclaimer; I'm just a PT, not a dev, etc etc etc.)
Zunni has been working his **** off getting things together for us for a more organized response system. Now we need to take advantage of that. Those that have issues need to bond together and then give these large drawn out proposals to Zunni. He is really the only one that I can see at the moment that can go in and change the direction of the devs.
What ever happens to be able to get change strong over bearing emotion needs to subside. Right now its causing problems, coming across arrogant also has to be watched also to keep from insulting the devs and then they just throw it out.
name last post
(KCSA) Robert Paulson Posted on Jul 1 2004, 10:52 PM
Ahnteis Posted on Oct 19 2004, 09:07 PM
blueman Posted on Oct 19 2004, 11:48 AM
Brad R Posted on Oct 8 2004, 08:02 PM
Cadaver Posted on Oct 23 2003, 07:14 PM
CheesyPeteza Posted on Oct 12 2004, 05:52 AM
ChimpZealot Posted on Oct 19 2004, 06:52 PM
ChromeAngel Posted on Oct 12 2004, 03:29 PM
citixen Posted on Jan 20 2003, 07:19 AM
devilblocks Posted on Mar 19 2004, 04:55 AM
Diskord Posted on Jun 27 2004, 10:23 AM
disq Posted on Jan 15 2004, 08:42 AM
DoL | NeO Posted on Jul 30 2004, 07:01 AM
Drunken.Monkey Posted on Oct 19 2004, 06:06 AM
DrunkenBozo Posted on Oct 17 2004, 03:25 PM
eggmac Posted on: Oct 19 2004, 02:09 PM
Ekaj Posted on: Dec 13 2003, 02:52 AM
enem3 Posted on: Aug 19 2004, 07:55 AM *special comment* this post was a spam post. the one previous was Nov 11 2003, 01:32 AM
Eternal Bliss Posted on: Aug 11 2004, 07:25 AM
exoity Posted on: Oct 6 2004, 07:57 PM
FFT_Fangs Posted on: Apr 29 2004, 09:53 AM
FoR|BitchSLAP! Posted on: Aug 4 2003, 07:50 AM
HAMBONE Posted on: Oct 16 2004, 02:21 AM
hawthorne Posted on: Oct 16 2004, 10:01 PM
Heist Posted on: Apr 10 2004, 01:16 PM
Hida Tsuzua Posted on: Aug 26 2004, 07:20 PM
Hypergrip Posted on: Oct 18 2004, 02:29 AM
IAN-SDZ Posted on: Feb 25 2004, 12:35 PM
Injury Posted on: Nov 29 2003, 12:39 AM
inphinity: couldn't find his last post because they are in priv forums, but he has a grand total of THREE posts.
KaiserRoll Posted on: Aug 7 2004, 09:41 PM
ken20banks Posted on: Oct 18 2004, 01:40 PM
Keyser59 Posted on: Oct 11 2004, 10:52 PM
Khaim Posted on: Oct 20 2004, 09:05 AM
KungFuDiscoMonkey Posted on: Oct 19 2004, 12:56 PM
KungFuSquirrel Posted on: Oct 20 2004, 02:15 PM
lagger Posted on: Oct 20 2004, 03:56 AM
Lazer Posted on: Sep 16 2004, 08:19 AM
Licho Posted on: Oct 13 2004, 03:53 AM
Lightning Blue Posted on: Sep 5 2004, 12:37 AM
MagiTek Posted on: Jun 2 2004, 11:05 PM
manah Posted on: Nov 13 2003, 11:58 AM
Martigen Posted on: Mar 30 2004, 08:20 PM
Mendasp Posted on: Oct 20 2004, 02:49 PM
Mr.Ben Posted on: Oct 20 2004, 03:27 PM
MrPink Posted on: Sep 25 2004, 11:21 PM
Narfwak Posted on: Oct 20 2004, 10:06 AM
Necro- Posted on: Oct 20 2004, 02:58 PM
NeoMatrix99 Posted on: Sep 30 2004, 08:45 AM
othell Posted on: Oct 13 2004, 01:50 PM
pandas|churro Posted on: Mar 16 2004, 07:12 PM
pandas|RoQ Posted on: Jul 1 2004, 05:00 PM
Plaguebearer Posted on: Apr 30 2004, 09:22 AM
QUAD Posted on: Jul 27 2004, 01:27 AM
quazilin Posted on: Oct 10 2004, 05:17 AM
raiN Posted on: Jul 2 2004, 11:46 AM
regis Posted on: Sep 30 2004, 02:51 PM
remiCs Posted on: Dec 28 2002, 01:06 AM *total of 12 posts
romano^_^ Posted on: Aug 21 2004, 12:22 PM
Sarisel Posted on: Oct 20 2004, 12:30 AM *explained pshb.
Savant Posted on: Apr 26 2004, 02:30 PM
shanks Posted on: Oct 19 2004, 01:33 PM
Shockwave Posted on: Oct 20 2004, 06:40 AM
Silver Fox Posted on: Sep 4 2004, 04:44 PM
Sirus Posted on: Aug 22 2004, 10:48 PM
STEAMEDHAM Posted on: Sep 16 2004, 11:42 AM
tankefugl Posted on: Oct 20 2004, 03:44 PM
tommyd Posted on: Oct 19 2004, 12:07 PM
UGL|Andrew Posted on: Oct 13 2004, 09:56 AM
Vadakill Posted on: Oct 14 2004, 03:05 PM
Verthandi Posted on: Oct 20 2004, 08:01 AM
Wither Posted on: Oct 19 2004, 02:11 AM
Yamazaki Posted on: Sep 2 2004, 03:29 PM
Zazi Posted on: Oct 9 2004, 09:49 PM
Zoc Posted on: Aug 25 2004, 08:59 AM
[DR]HUGO Posted on: Feb 16 2003, 08:20 AM
[FFT]SpaceMoogle5 Posted on: Oct 19 2004, 05:59 PM
[Qoh] Kotone Posted on: Dec 30 2003, 02:21 AM * total of 11 posts
[SiD]Squishy Posted on: Oct 18 2004, 01:23 AM
[SuB] Posted on: Sep 15 2004, 11:30 AM
There are quite a few people who have not posted in a pub forum since 2003....
I won't give specifics but most of the PTs are not skilled enough to capatalise on some of the changes we're testing, they're only playing half the game, half the change. They do not understand what they've got available to them and just a FEW skilled players would absolutely decimate a 10 player team - the same 10 player team that with the same unbalancing features would lose despite having more players.
I'll give you an example from a non-b6 change. Lets think back to the free lerk flight phenomian. Remember how everyone thought it'd be great? Lerks would be more viable, could spore more, could escape easier, everything nice and happy and it couldn't possibly lead to any exploits. ERR WRONG. Takes one clanner, one experienced player with this change to decimate an entire team easily with pancaking.
Inexperienced players simply cannot pick up on what certain changes are capable of, you're only playing half the game and it takes the more experienced player who pushes NS to it's max to balance. We simply can't balanced the game with the current group of PTs. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd like to know how you come to this conclusion with your current ZERO attendance at scheduled PTs.
Oh yes and with regards to PT activity, it should be noted that:
a) The PT Leads can't change who is part of the PT group without the assistance of others. I used to be able to, but I still had to get everything checked by Charlie first.
b) The PT group is not just PTs, but people who require PT Forum or test build access. That included Beta Server Operators, Mappers and other assorted VIPs (CAL admins etc.).
But feel free to keep on jumping to conclusions. I've long got past the point where I expect anything but abuse for spending 2 years working on the game.
I'd like to know how you come to this conclusion with your current ZERO attendance at scheduled PTs.
Oh yes and with regards to PT activity, it should be noted that:
a) The PT Leads can't change who is part of the PT group without the assistance of others. I used to be able to, but I still had to get everything checked by Charlie first.
b) The PT group is not just PTs, but people who require PT Forum or test build access. That included Beta Server Operators, Mappers and other assorted VIPs (CAL admins etc.).
But feel free to keep on jumping to conclusions. I've long got past the point where I expect anything but abuse for spending 2 years working on the game. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ow. That's a burn.
Nice edit, though.
We <3 you. Squish the bugs, worry about balance later.
a) The PT Leads can't change who is part of the PT group without the assistance of others. I used to be able to, but I still had to get everything checked by Charlie first.
b) The PT group is not just PTs, but people who require PT Forum or test build access. That included Beta Server Operators, Mappers and other assorted VIPs (CAL admins etc.).
But feel free to keep on jumping to conclusions. I've long got past the point where I expect anything but abuse for spending 2 years working on the game. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Posting info != jumping to conclusions.
It's funny because it's true!
Still waiting on Redford's positive contributions to NS.
And my negative list.
I'm requesting examples, there is no offense in that.
Okay thanks for that info, I'd better go and start posting in private forums more so that I can live up to such an indisputable truth.
Okay thanks for that info, I'd better go and start posting in private forums more so that I can live up to such an indisputable truth. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Dude it's no secret, after all the privite sections hold more importance as their influence is greater, if I had a choice of a limited number of posts (aka time) I'd place the private forums over the general ones.
And when was the last time you posted in the general forums insane...?
Okay thanks for that info, I'd better go and start posting in private forums more so that I can live up to such an indisputable truth. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Dude it's no secret, after all the privite sections hold more importance as their influence is greater, if I had a choice of a limited number of posts (aka time) I'd place the private forums over the general ones. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
By the look of this thread, they've made a good choice <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
ninja edit - aw snap!
No, but the way this thread represents them is... less than appealing.
Because of these experiences, I do not want to playtest with the vets. But at the same time, I fully realize that their opinions and views about the game are important and valid. Catch-22.
That being said, there is zero point in having vets join the playtesting ranks to offer balance feedback on fundamentally flawed game systems. Changes are introduced with every patch. Sometimes these changes work, and sometimes they don't. We can very often see this with the group of playtesters we have now. I feel that our job as playtesters should primarily be to find bugs and issues with the game, and to point out any blatantly obvious balance issues that need to be addressed with the new changes.
Now, obviously, we're a small group with a limited time fram for testing. We won't catch everything. But by the time we've gotten all the issues that we can find ironed out, it's usually been quite a while, and the public wants an update. I say we give it to them at this point.
And then here's where the vets should come in. I feel that there should be a number of vets chosen to offer balance feedback on the current build. A few weeks after the new build is out, their feedback should be taken into consideration, and a "balance patch" should be released.
Doing it this way should make everyone happy, and alleviate a number of concerns:
-The public gets to play with something new, and then a couple weeks later they get to play with something balanced to tide them over until the next big patch. That makes them happy.
-The vets get to offer their input about the game. That makes them happy.
-I don't have to play with people who will chew me out for getting killed to quickly. This makes me happy.
-If "Vet A" happens to be a very calm, articulate individual, but the rest of his clan is composed of jerks, then the PTs and devs don't have to deal with them. Certainly "Vet A" should ideally perform his best when he's on the same team as his clan, which he'll be able to do with the public release.
Basically, my suggestion boils down to this: 1. PTs go through the build and make sure there are no major bugs or issues. 2. Public release. 3. Selected vets offer their feedback on the build. 4. Balance patch.
Keep in mind, of course, that I'm just a forum mod who happened to make a map that went official. I don't have any control over the PT system, but I do understand that it does need a change.
Private forums aren't VIP clubs, they have a specific purpose and that's what they're used for.
anyway...
w00t b6 will soon be here!!
I agree to most of this by the way. I'm not going to call people various things and insult e-privates-sizes, but certainly more skilled players wouldn't hurt the PT of things. Fact of the matter is, though, that what Bob said is true. Concerning 3.0 final, suggesting balance changes is a no go from our side. Our hands are tied. We give feedback on changes, we give minor suggestions that could balance them, but suggesting them isn't something we can do. It's not the I&S of Eden where every change is followed by a dev taking your hand and saying WOW DUDE UR ROX YOUR SUGGESTION IS IN. Coding takes time. The devs have lives. That doesn't leave enough time for testing every suggestion made in the release time for the next product. If we did this, B6 would be out somewhere in mid 2005.
Uh yeah, now back to what I was saying. Skilled players wouldn't hurt the PT team. Now they just need to be able to give constructive feedback and think things out and they would be the perfect candidate. I'd say it's about 50/50, it's a rare sight finding non clanners that are the same way and I'd also say the current PT group that attends are half clanner half non. Perhaps some no longer clan, but they certainly are able to give feedback and think things out well. Note that if you have any suggestions for PT's, even though I have no say in adding any, I wouldn't mind seeing PM's suggesting people and reasons for doing so.
So yeah as a disclaimer, I'm a PT. Not a PT lead. Not a dev. Not the president. All I said up above was my personal opinion and does in no way reflect on the NS team, NS itself or any official NS figure. Thanks.