It makes you sound like you;re very far away, as I found out today when I was blinking down a hall and ran into an unsuspecting Marine, who then asked if I speedhacked because he heard me far away and I closed the distance so "quickly". I then inform of level 2 silence, and he cursed himself out laughing.
Level 1 isn't good, but how many level 1 upgrades are really "good" these days?
Do not attack from open areas using silence and you'll find your qualms about it go away.
Be a skulk. Hide. You'd be surprised some of the places you can hide. Often in plain sight.
I've killed far more marines using silence than cloaking. With cloaking, I'm nearly guarunteed a kill. With silence, I'm not only nearly guarunteed the kill, I'll probably survive the marine's buddy. Sometimes take him down as well.
MT counters silence some. But get in the same room with a marine who knows you're there and I'd far prefer silence over cloaking. Blue circles don't mean much when the skulk is spinning around you and bouncing off the walls. In fact, when you have silence, they tend to help, as the marine doesn't have the clicky-clacky to help him correct so winds up shooting the circle.. but the circle's where you were. Not where you are.
Perhaps your play-style simply isn't suited for silence. Different people have different specialties.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Perhaps your play-style simply isn't suited for silence. Different people have different specialties.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
this is definitely a good point to make. I for one don't have a this magical eye to see anything and everything on the map. This is due to poor eyesight coupled with a dark monitor and hella dark maps. I DO however have a VERY nice speaker system that allows me to quite accurately pinpoint the position of a sound in a map. The blurry image i actually see really only helps me out as a feedback mechanism assuring me that I did actually move my mouse to the right position intended. Needless to say, the Silence upgrade is absolutely enfuriating to me as it kills me almost every time as my visual accuity and response aren't up to par.
Now I'm not so naive to think that anything more than a very small minority of our community are in the same predicament as I, but it does nevertheless attest to the effectiveness of different styles of play in the hands of those with a true affinity for that style of play as opposed to just any joe schmoe that picks up the upgrade.
As an example, i know people who will choose regen (even as a skulk) simply because it fits with their style of play better than carapace does and vice-versa. Those two upgrades may not have a direct analogy to the upgrades at hand (movement upgrades), but the principle still remains.
Who cares if there is an infallible counter to Silence, even very early on in the game. You are trying to analyze the upgrade out of the context of the game it is played with. In all likelihood there WILL be other upgrades available to you (if not now, then soon). In all likelihood there WILL be other players that can serve as distraction for you while you flank a position. In all likelihood there WILL be players that are disoriented by seeing things they cannot hear. All the testimony we've heard from you actually sends the message not to use Silence against YOU as you claim that someone given your skills would be helpless with it outside a select few anomalies of gameplay... though I beg to differ as I consider myself VERY deadly with the Silence upgrade in my pocket, and I don't consider myself all that great of a player.
As a case in point, assume that you are a skulk with silence and are traveling with two other skulks (assume not silenced) when you hear footsteps in the distance. Also assume that MT has been researched and the marine(s) essentially know where we are already. Being the above sludge intelligence human beings that my teammates are they know that there may be more than one person ahead and would therefore be more prudent to push the attack together rather than to split apart (or heaven forbid, run away). You figure that you can use this to your advantage by allowing them be the 'larger threat' on MT (psychology would tell you that most people would be more apt to follow the two targets rather than the one if nothing else is known about them). Thus you've just created an opportunity to flank regardless of the fact that the marines can "technically" know where you are at all times anyways. Since they aren't likely looking in your direction you'll still have the upper hand as they can't hear you either. When you do finally hit it causes confusion amongst a few and even if you do end up dying you've allowed your other teammates a higher chance of survival to close their distance and finish up the job you started. This case also works in the event that MT does NOT exist as the marines will still hear the other two coming and be unaware of your approach from the flank.
It is all about intelligent deployment of tactics in real world (in-game?) situations, not the technical "lab room" arguments that require some level of controlled variables. If there's one thing you can be assured about outside of a laboratory, its that nothing is ever assured.
Silence is a great upgrade in the early game, and I don't think the attack feedback sound is a serious problem. The only real purpose of the upgrade is to give you the first bite without having to slow down anyway. The problem with it is that it is almost completely worthless as soon as MT comes into play, and that's usually pretty early once the marines notice Silence. I think it would be overpowered to completely shut down MT, but it should have some effect on it to give it some value rather than everybody switching over to Celerity when MT is confirmed. Like if silenced MT blips are only updated every couple of seconds, or only report where he was 1-2 seconds ago?
Sight is nothing to a good marine. They tune in more to sound than to anything else. It's possible to jump around near a marine with silence and they may never see you if their pov is limited. It's easy for me now to pick out a cloaked alien unless they're standing perfectly still, and the instant I hear an alien moving I go into defensive mode. There are plenty of places to hide in maps without ever needing cloaking. The fact is that the instant someone hears an alien trotting around somewhere they get that boost of adrenaline and get ready for an attack. With silence, their reaction is highly delayed because they don't expect it at all. Personally, I think silence is the best upgrade; you can follow marines and run around the map knowing that no marine knows where you are... unless they have motion tracking.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Do not attack from open areas using silence and you'll find your qualms about it go away.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wow, hiding as a skulk, boy I sure did not know that! This whole time I thought skulks were supposed to stand in open ground like sumo wrasslers!
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Be a skulk. Hide. You'd be surprised some of the places you can hide. Often in plain sight.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How vague can you be? Holy crap, I didn't know skulks can hide in... vents!
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I've killed far more marines using silence than cloaking. With cloaking, I'm nearly guarunteed a kill. With silence, I'm not only nearly guarunteed the kill, I'll probably survive the marine's buddy. Sometimes take him down as well.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, because your personal experience with "probablies and nearlies" automatically makes mine obsolete.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->MT counters silence some. But get in the same room with a marine who knows you're there and I'd far prefer silence over cloaking. Blue circles don't mean much when the skulk is spinning around you and bouncing off the walls. In fact, when you have silence, they tend to help, as the marine doesn't have the clicky-clacky to help him correct so winds up shooting the circle.. but the circle's where you were. Not where you are.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd like to hear your definitition of some. I'm going to have to disagree with you and say sight > sound. It's a cute story, but the last time I played NS, blue circles only appeared when they are BEHIND A WALL.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Perhaps your play-style simply isn't suited for silence. Different people have different specialties.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because I argue about a feature, that automatically makes me skilless, right. However, I will agree with you on your second statement.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Sight is nothing to a good marine. They tune in more to sound than to anything else. It's possible to jump around near a marine with silence and they may never see you if their pov is limited. It's easy for me now to pick out a cloaked alien unless they're standing perfectly still, and the instant I hear an alien moving I go into defensive mode. There are plenty of places to hide in maps without ever needing cloaking. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok, let's remove the element of sound. Turn off speakers, headphones whatever. Now let's remove the element of sight. Blindfold yourself. Let's see which is easier to play.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The fact is that the instant someone hears an alien trotting around somewhere they get that boost of adrenaline and get ready for an attack. With silence, their reaction is highly delayed because they don't expect it at all. Personally, I think silence is the best upgrade; you can follow marines and run around the map knowing that no marine knows where you are... unless they have motion tracking. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok, your argument would be valid, but then you do my work and defeat yourself with this phrase: "unless they have motion tracking."
So, basically it all comes down to what Zek says: Silence is NOT weak early game, however, MT renders silence worthless compared to adrenaline or celerity.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So, basically it all comes down to what Zek says: Silence is NOT weak early game, however, MT renders silence worthless compared to adrenaline or celerity. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you have celerity regardless of mt you can move silently without making sound about as fast a marine maybe a little faster. And then you can move really fast when you need to also making up for the speed reduction whilie "skulking" about. To a skulk who has mastered moving forward with taps when he thinks rines around silence isn't near celerity. Except for nub <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif' /><!--endemo--> s like homi.
<!--QuoteBegin-Kwil+Mar 9 2005, 12:45 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Kwil @ Mar 9 2005, 12:45 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Do not attack from open areas using silence and you'll find your qualms about it go away.
Be a skulk. Hide. You'd be surprised some of the places you can hide. Often in plain sight.
I've killed far more marines using silence than cloaking. With cloaking, I'm nearly guarunteed a kill. With silence, I'm not only nearly guarunteed the kill, I'll probably survive the marine's buddy. Sometimes take him down as well.
MT counters silence some. But get in the same room with a marine who knows you're there and I'd far prefer silence over cloaking. Blue circles don't mean much when the skulk is spinning around you and bouncing off the walls. In fact, when you have silence, they tend to help, as the marine doesn't have the clicky-clacky to help him correct so winds up shooting the circle.. but the circle's where you were. Not where you are.
Perhaps your play-style simply isn't suited for silence. Different people have different specialties. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> MT brualizes silence. Far more then it effects cloakers.
GrendelAll that is fear...Join Date: 2002-07-19Member: 970Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, NS2 Playtester
<!--QuoteBegin-homicide+Mar 8 2005, 12:35 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (homicide @ Mar 8 2005, 12:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I stopped reading the thread in the first sentence when you said silence was weak. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Funnily enough, just reading the title of the thread made me appreciate the value of silence all the more.
This thread demonstrates that #NSLearn is in need of an article to teach the usage of silence.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'm afraid you don't understand my reasoning. If you look in the dictionary you will find silence means: the absence of sound. The problem is that at levels 1 and 2, there IS sound. It may be muffled a bit, but it is still there. When you look at cloaking, you can see how the devs finally realized that 50% or 70% cloaking just won't cut it. It has to be 100% cloaking, otherwise it's useless. I believe silence goes on the same trend. Level 1 or 2 carapace STILL gives you benefits of taking more damage, even if it is small. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Silence ... maybe a name that isn't relevant when alien only have 1 or 2 chamber. So what? This doesn't worth a huge thread. ok let's call it "STEALTH"... happy now?
And if it's a problem of 'bad luck only one MC!' so gorge and do them.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> No, it's better to take out res as fast as possible, rather to have 1 guy chomping res and 5 other skulks watching him, waiting for a marine that might not even come. If you are a skulk, you were designed to chomp RTs. Celerity and Adrenaline both give benefits here, but silence is limited, which is my point.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You talk about that as if MC strategy were static like sensory. This isn't the case; AT ALL. MC strategies are the most dinamic strategies of NS. Who said that there will be one skulk to bite RT? They can be 2 and be really devastating. Who said that you have to wait for a marins to come. Silent skulks move where the marins are, they listen (THIS IS THE POINT) to their noise, locate them, and ambush them were they are. And all in one package; plus they move undetected. If played well no marins comes out the base without heavy damage.
You should play more NS and adapt your REASONING to the game itself. You don't play NS_ like CO_. You don't rush in front of them. You don't wait for marins to come. You make you team develop. On the alien side you have 3 choices. And you play differently each of them.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I seem to infer that you don't understand my argument. The fact is that silence is worthless when attacking RTs. The upgrade that was designed to hide your location is given away when biting RTs...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You don't have arguments. This idea is stupid. This is not balanced. One of the problem of NS is the balance. You don't realize that this idea is ruining it. As long as we can call it an idea. Think about all the possibilities before talking anout that; and not only to you personnal 'comfort'. Skill yourself!
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Obviously. What I implied is that even with a group of marines, cloak guarantees at least 1 bite. Silence however is harder to do with MT. You must be standing still, and even when you do close the distance, a marine can use the element of sight and smoke you before you can land a single bite.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exactly the same for sensory... You cannot ambush when MT is up. Unless you wait for a long time. But the time factor in NS is crucial. By the time MT is up PhaseGate is up too. Marins don't have to walk long lanes waiting for you to ambush. And you wait alone in you location... pathetic.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Even if MT was effective against cloaking, I am very sure that aliens under a sensory chamber do not show up. Not only that, but the sensory chamber offers more benefits with it's chamber abilities (not just upgrades), than movement.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Still wrong. Actually Motion Tracking shows every movement that is hidden by wall or other things, let's call it obticles. Even in the sensory radius. Ns Motion tracking is a lot 'something behind the walls' is moving.
A ommander have the minimap. Thinking you ambush with cloaking. Motion tracking is T3H thing that give the tip to commander to locate you. And mostly when MT is up the commander don't have to tell anything with experienced players.
Plus when alien use sensory; commander systematicaly upgrade armor... When MT is up usually marins have armor level2 and alien still have one hive. Even if you bite one time the marins kills you, get his medpack and roll again. What the point of biting one time? It's about interception and killing a single one to neutralize the enemy team.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm sorry, but I find celerity FAR more effective as a fade. You travel the map faster, Blink uses less energy, and when low on energy, at least your running speed is improved. I'm not arguing about combat lerks, or even combat; I'm talking about NS.
Also consider the benefits of silence and cloaking, or silence and focus. Focus silence generally means one hit one kill, so you can afford to miss out on adren, etc, because you'll only be blinking in to kill one guy.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wrong again! You can travel a lot with silence. Just use a key like space. If done well the fade save a lot energy. I usually 'blink' through the entire map with half energy.
One hit one kill? Only at the begining. Usually marins get armor lvl1... then you die.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This thread demonstrates that #NSLearn is in need of an article to teach the usage of silence. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Agreed
Conclusion: Everybody who answered was in glory of silence.
I think you are a freshmeat skulk and you are unable to adapt to different styles. Noobs begins by cloaking. Experienced player play it with silence. And they know why!
This thread demonstrates that #NSLearn is in need of an article to teach the usage of silence. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Great idea! they should also have bit more articles I think. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So, basically it all comes down to what Zek says: Silence is NOT weak early game, however, MT renders silence worthless compared to adrenaline or celerity.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
not entirely true. with 2 hives and leap, silence+leap skulks are very deadly, mt or not. as for early-game... true that silence is rendered pretty useless by mt, but does that really matter? it IS the strongest early-game upgrade available, by far. if the marines need a whole separate (and expensive) upgrade just to counter it isnt it pretty balanced?
Silence is the best upg early game? I can't believe this..... You can move just as quietly without if for most practical purposes. It isn't even the most useful movement chamber upg.
Silence does not need a buff. The advantage of silence is not to sneak up on marines its to run rings around them while biting. When aiming at close quarters your actually aiming by useing the sound to tell where they are. A marine spinning round with no clue where the skulk is is dead. This is why mc can be much more effective than cloaking and ofc it has no counter and is much more useful later on.
GrendelAll that is fear...Join Date: 2002-07-19Member: 970Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, NS2 Playtester
<!--QuoteBegin-SquishyOne+Mar 9 2005, 01:52 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SquishyOne @ Mar 9 2005, 01:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Silence is the best upg early game? I can't believe this..... You can move just as quietly without if for most practical purposes. It isn't even the most useful movement chamber upg. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Practical purposes, one would tend to assume, would be moving around the map, hitting marines from behind and chewing on their resource nodes. Bunnyhopping silently allows you to close two rooms worth of distance in around a second. Very few marines check behind them once every second.
As an alien you should have a very good feel where marines are during the whole round. So get celerity bhop around and you can tap walk when you're close. Silence is better than nothing which is what that one guy was calling it but it is hardly the "pro" thing to get like the other one side either.
There are a lot of alien abilities that we would all agree could be made better in some way to counter something the marines have, but that is being too narrow minded.
The balance of the game seems to be tilted already in the aliens favor. So why do we want to talk about buffing alien abilities?
You can't talk about making silence better without mentioning how it is going to better balance the game. Right now, making silence better will only unbalance the game further. It is the marines turn to get a improvement. Besides, this should be in ideas and suggestions anyway. <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The advantage of silence is not to sneak up on marines its to run rings around them while biting.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Nail. Head.
<!--QuoteBegin-Swiftspear+Mar 9 2005, 03:56 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Swiftspear @ Mar 9 2005, 03:56 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> MT brualizes silence. Far more then it effects cloakers. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> And teamwork brutalizes cloaking. Far more than it does silence.
Except teamwork is available without upgrades.
So really, it depends to some extent on the quality of the marine team you're up against.
So I've noticed that you like to make threads about things that are fine and work great, then say they're underpowered.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Good job Tomekki for being the worst poster in this thread. So how would I have made my points on silence if I never used it? If I use celerity instead of silence, does that make me a worse skulk player?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
From reading your first post, I’d have to agree with Tomekki - it seems that you've never used silence. I die a lot quicker to silence skulks rather than celerity skulks - I use sound, and pretty much sound alone, to track skulks through walls / rooms. When someone goes silent, I don’t know they're there until they're in my face biting - to make it even worse have them cloak and run around, then my primary way of tracking skulks is gone.
To say that 3 MCs would grant people using silence the ability to chew up structures and not have the commander be notified is pure insanity and only shows how little experience you have using silence.
<!--QuoteBegin-Grendel+Mar 9 2005, 02:20 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Grendel @ Mar 9 2005, 02:20 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-homicide+Mar 8 2005, 12:35 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (homicide @ Mar 8 2005, 12:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I stopped reading the thread in the first sentence when you said silence was weak. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Funnily enough, just reading the title of the thread made me appreciate the value of silence all the more.
This thread demonstrates that #NSLearn is in need of an article to teach the usage of silence. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Grendel, I know you have played NS far longer than me, but even SwiftSpear acknowledges the nuking of silence when MT rolls around. And if you really think I need to learn how to use silence, WHY DON'T YOU POST REASONS or EXAMPLES? Did you even bother to read my post when I said:
So, basically it all comes down to what Zek says: Silence is NOT weak early game, however, MT renders silence worthless compared to adrenaline or celerity.
Tell me how this is flawed.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Silence ... maybe a name that isn't relevant when alien only have 1 or 2 chamber. So what? This doesn't worth a huge thread. ok let's call it "STEALTH"... happy now?
And if it's a problem of 'bad luck only one MC!' so gorge and do them.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, you still don't get it. The problem is while say adrenaline will give you a 33% energy boost and celerity gives you 33% speed boost at level 1, Having your sounds muffled, but still audible is USELESS. You might as well upgrade adrenaline or celerity as they give you a boost. The only way level 1 silence was to be helpful in anyway, is if there are other players in the game causing more sound in that area.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You talk about that as if MC strategy were static like sensory. This isn't the case; AT ALL. MC strategies are the most dinamic strategies of NS. Who said that there will be one skulk to bite RT? They can be 2 and be really devastating. Who said that you have to wait for a marins to come. Silent skulks move where the marins are, they listen (THIS IS THE POINT) to their noise, locate them, and ambush them were they are. And all in one package; plus they move undetected. If played well no marins comes out the base without heavy damage.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't see how you need silence to listen to footsteps. They move undetected... UNTIL MT, which is my argument.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You should play more NS and adapt your REASONING to the game itself. You don't play NS_ like CO_. You don't rush in front of them. You don't wait for marins to come. You make you team develop. On the alien side you have 3 choices. And you play differently each of them.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I previously have stated I'm talking about NS here, not combat. I don't understand what you are saying; my examples are from games of NS... what's your point? I understand that all 3 upgrades for the movement chamber have different purposes, but MT destroys one of them, while the other 2 aren't as effective. And that is why I believe it is wrong.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You don't have arguments. This idea is stupid. This is not balanced. One of the problem of NS is the balance. You don't realize that this idea is ruining it. As long as we can call it an idea. Think about all the possibilities before talking anout that; and not only to you personnal 'comfort'. Skill yourself!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I never had said that when structures are under attack, if aliens have silence the "under attack" should NOT play. My point was that even when attacking structures, celerity allows you to escape or dodge shots, and adrenaline allows quicker RT demolishing, while silence does not give any benefits. This concludes to the more restricted use of silence.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Exactly the same for sensory... You cannot ambush when MT is up. Unless you wait for a long time. But the time factor in NS is crucial. By the time MT is up PhaseGate is up too. Marins don't have to walk long lanes waiting for you to ambush. And you wait alone in you location... pathetic.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Have you played the game or read the manual? While you are cloaked, MT IS BLOCKED.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Still wrong. Actually Motion Tracking shows every movement that is hidden by wall or other things, let's call it obticles. Even in the sensory radius. Ns Motion tracking is a lot 'something behind the walls' is moving.
A ommander have the minimap. Thinking you ambush with cloaking. Motion tracking is T3H thing that give the tip to commander to locate you. And mostly when MT is up the commander don't have to tell anything with experienced players.
Plus when alien use sensory; commander systematicaly upgrade armor... When MT is up usually marins have armor level2 and alien still have one hive. Even if you bite one time the marins kills you, get his medpack and roll again. What the point of biting one time? It's about interception and killing a single one to neutralize the enemy team.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm afraid you haven't played enough 3.0F. If you are cloaked, it BLOCKS MT. Cloaking allows you to be in the most obvious spots, while silence requires you to be hidden and staying still, that's the difference. MT IS countered by cloaking. If you disagree with this, show me evidence, otherwise I'm going to go with what the 3.0 manual says.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Wrong again! You can travel a lot with silence. Just use a key like space. If done well the fade save a lot energy. I usually 'blink' through the entire map with half energy.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't understand your logic of how silence allows you to travel more than celerity. The reason I say it saves energy is because it takes less energy to travel the same distance with blink and celerity, than it does with silence and blink. If you can blink through the entire map with only 50% energy, imagine how much more energy you will save with celerity!
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->One hit one kill? Only at the begining. Usually marins get armor lvl1... then you die.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The last statement was from Necrosis, not me. I dudged up by putting the quote on the wrong people, it can happen when you have this many quotes.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Conclusion: Everybody who answered was in glory of silence.
I think you are a freshmeat skulk and you are unable to adapt to different styles. Noobs begins by cloaking. Experienced player play it with silence. And they know why!
Zunny : apply the thread closer pls...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No the conclusion is you need to play 3.0F a bit more and use celerity a bit more. You say that silence allows you to travel more when it gives no movement buffs like celerity. Hell, you travel the same distance with or withOUT silence. Noobs begin by cloaking? I'm talking about NS here, not combat where you can get all 9 upgrades from the start. Experienced players also use celerity, please don't give me this random statistics from sources you pulled out of your butt. You wan't this thread closed? Why don't you report it to a mod... Or better yet, DON'T READ WHAT I WRITE! I have an opinion, and whether you like it or not, it stays. And for the record, Zunni mods threads in I&S. I'm discussing silence here, which I would have placed in beta discussion, but you know why I haven't. In fact, Nem0 had looked at this thread, and left it open, which means IT IS LEGIT. So stop whining with your "please close omg" crap.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->not entirely true. with 2 hives and leap, silence+leap skulks are very deadly, mt or not. as for early-game... true that silence is rendered pretty useless by mt, but does that really matter? it IS the strongest early-game upgrade available, by far. if the marines need a whole separate (and expensive) upgrade just to counter it isnt it pretty balanced? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If it's not entirely true, than it's not going to be false either. You defeat your statement with your phrase: true that silence is rendered pretty useless by mt. And yes it does matter when one upgrade is useless. If the devs had your logic, they would have left cloaking alone. You opinion on silence being the strongest upgrade is just that, your opinion. It does not make it a fact, and I would recommend saying WHY it is the best over the other 8, but that should be in another thread.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Silence does not need a buff. The advantage of silence is not to sneak up on marines its to run rings around them while biting. When aiming at close quarters your actually aiming by useing the sound to tell where they are. A marine spinning round with no clue where the skulk is is dead. This is why mc can be much more effective than cloaking and ofc it has no counter and is much more useful later on. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Guess what, you can run rings around marines... WITHOUT silence! Not only that, but celerity allows spinning... to go FASTER!
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Practical purposes, one would tend to assume, would be moving around the map, hitting marines from behind and chewing on their resource nodes. Bunnyhopping silently allows you to close two rooms worth of distance in around a second. Very few marines check behind them once every second. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You do realize celerity or adrenaline do a much better job at the tasks you stated once marines get MT? If silence allows you to close 2 rooms in a second, imagine how many rooms celerity can close. Not only that, but it wouldn't matter if you could close 2 rooms with silence, your speed is still the same regardless of having it or not. I agree with your statement that very few marines do check behind them... but even with that said, celerity allows a quick escape or possibly allow a kill to incoming marines, while adrenaline allows the RT to be finished quicker than celerity or silence.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->There are a lot of alien abilities that we would all agree could be made better in some way to counter something the marines have, but that is being too narrow minded.
The balance of the game seems to be tilted already in the aliens favor. So why do we want to talk about buffing alien abilities?
You can't talk about making silence better without mentioning how it is going to better balance the game. Right now, making silence better will only unbalance the game further. It is the marines turn to get a improvement. Besides, this should be in ideas and suggestions anyway. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I understand that the difficulty is placed more on marines this build, but you might as well use another thread for that. This thread is comparing silence to other upgrades and the effect MT has on it. Just wait for the game to sink in a bit, maybe new strategies will pop out, who knows. The build has only been out for a week, so give it a chance.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And teamwork brutalizes cloaking. Far more than it does silence.
Except teamwork is available without upgrades.
So really, it depends to some extent on the quality of the marine team you're up against<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't understand your logic here. Maybe if you were to give me an example of a situation I could be able to relate to it. Your statement that teamwork brutalizes cloaking is true, but isn't teamwork effective against any upgrade? I don't see how you use skill as an argument when it's a variable that nobody has control over.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So I've noticed that you like to make threads about things that are fine and work great, then say they're underpowered. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nice opinion, but I still stand on my argument that silence is completely useless when MT rolls along.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->From reading your first post, I’d have to agree with Tomekki - it seems that you've never used silence. I die a lot quicker to silence skulks rather than celerity skulks - I use sound, and pretty much sound alone, to track skulks through walls / rooms. When someone goes silent, I don’t know they're there until they're in my face biting - to make it even worse have them cloak and run around, then my primary way of tracking skulks is gone.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, so when I say that celerity and adrenaline are useful in many more situations than silence, it automatically makes my knowledge of silence flawed. The world must agree with you right Steve, or does that make them bad people? Why don't you read entire thread if you want to argue against me? If you are too lazy to do that, I recommend you just pretend this thread never existed... mmkay?
You say you use sound to track skulk through walls. So if skulks are not moving at all or walking, then what? It won't matter if they are silent when you have MT. The fact is that you will gain the knowledge of an aliens position which destroys the purpose of silence. I'm going to have to agree that sound is useful in detection, but MT does a much, much better job, than sound could ever do.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->To say that 3 MCs would grant people using silence the ability to chew up structures and not have the commander be notified is pure insanity and only shows how little experience you have using silence.
Once again, silence is fine.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I never suggested that silence removes commander notifications. My point was that as the commander is notified, celerity gives the alien a faster getaway, a chance to kill the pursuer, adrenaline allows the RT to be destroyed faster, while silence gives no benefits in this situation whatsoever. I'm only explaining how limited the usefulness of silence is when experiencing common situations in games.
And once again, MT destroys silence.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Your blindfold analogy is terrible. I didn't realize that the entire map went dark and your monitor turned off when they get cloaking. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your understanding of analogies is flawed. Analogies are never supposed to be taken literally, just like a simile or an anecdote. The purpose of that statement was that sight ultimately gives more advantage to the user than sound.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->this is definitely a good point to make. I for one don't have a this magical eye to see anything and everything on the map. This is due to poor eyesight coupled with a dark monitor and hella dark maps. I DO however have a VERY nice speaker system that allows me to quite accurately pinpoint the position of a sound in a map. The blurry image i actually see really only helps me out as a feedback mechanism assuring me that I did actually move my mouse to the right position intended. Needless to say, the Silence upgrade is absolutely enfuriating to me as it kills me almost every time as my visual accuity and response aren't up to par.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Are big light blue circles that hard to see? If silence has you beat down, don't worry, MT nullifies it completely.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Now I'm not so naive to think that anything more than a very small minority of our community are in the same predicament as I, but it does nevertheless attest to the effectiveness of different styles of play in the hands of those with a true affinity for that style of play as opposed to just any joe schmoe that picks up the upgrade.
As an example, i know people who will choose regen (even as a skulk) simply because it fits with their style of play better than carapace does and vice-versa. Those two upgrades may not have a direct analogy to the upgrades at hand (movement upgrades), but the principle still remains.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I understand their are those who prefer some upgrades over others. I just find that when there is an upgrade that makes an ability nerfed to a point of uselessness, somethings wrong. I mean if the game was meant to be like this, why not have something that shuts down regeneration, perhaps poison? Why not shut down focus with alien drugs? If the other 8 upgrades are useful no matter what is researched, I don't see why silence should be the only upgrade that can be nullified.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Who cares if there is an infallible counter to Silence, even very early on in the game. You are trying to analyze the upgrade out of the context of the game it is played with. In all likelihood there WILL be other upgrades available to you (if not now, then soon). In all likelihood there WILL be other players that can serve as distraction for you while you flank a position. In all likelihood there WILL be players that are disoriented by seeing things they cannot hear. All the testimony we've heard from you actually sends the message not to use Silence against YOU as you claim that someone given your skills would be helpless with it outside a select few anomalies of gameplay... though I beg to differ as I consider myself VERY deadly with the Silence upgrade in my pocket, and I don't consider myself all that great of a player. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Apparently, the devs do. If they followed your policy, cloaking would have probably never been upgraded to a useful level.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> As a case in point, assume that you are a skulk with silence and are traveling with two other skulks (assume not silenced) when you hear footsteps in the distance. Also assume that MT has been researched and the marine(s) essentially know where we are already. Being the above sludge intelligence human beings that my teammates are they know that there may be more than one person ahead and would therefore be more prudent to push the attack together rather than to split apart (or heaven forbid, run away). You figure that you can use this to your advantage by allowing them be the 'larger threat' on MT (psychology would tell you that most people would be more apt to follow the two targets rather than the one if nothing else is known about them). Thus you've just created an opportunity to flank regardless of the fact that the marines can "technically" know where you are at all times anyways. Since they aren't likely looking in your direction you'll still have the upper hand as they can't hear you either. When you do finally hit it causes confusion amongst a few and even if you do end up dying you've allowed your other teammates a higher chance of survival to close their distance and finish up the job you started. This case also works in the event that MT does NOT exist as the marines will still hear the other two coming and be unaware of your approach from the flank.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In this situation, it would work. But how many other situations are there?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It is all about intelligent deployment of tactics in real world (in-game?) situations, not the technical "lab room" arguments that require some level of controlled variables. If there's one thing you can be assured about outside of a laboratory, its that nothing is ever assured. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Isn't what you posted above a "lab room" situation?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->QUOTE Your blindfold analogy is terrible. I didn't realize that the entire map went dark and your monitor turned off when they get cloaking.
Your understanding of analogies is flawed. Analogies are never supposed to be taken literally, just like a simile or an anecdote. The purpose of that statement was that sight ultimately gives more advantage to the user than sound.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why use analogies at all? Stating what you're trying to say without comparing apples to oranges is pretty much the best thing you could do.
And for the record, you can spot cloakers, if you look hard enough, or use a totally FREE scan, baring the cost of an obs.. The obs seems to counter 2 upgrades, doesn't it? Or shall we say 3? SOF is matched by MT, so the advantage becomes null on both sides. Does this in turn make the DC overpowered because it's the only chamber not hurt too badly by the construction of an obs?
Silence allows you to travel, full normal speed, without making a sound. Walking allows you to travel significantly slower, still making the occasional "tick" from an unsteady hand, with bite noise and running sound in combat. Silence's advantage does NOT dissapear in combat, whereas cloaking's advantage does. It's got plenty good going for it, and forcing the rines to spend a large investment of res in a relitivly slow upgrade in the weakest structure in order to stand a chance vs you seems like a good deal to me. That res could go towards weapons 2 or something else that drastically lowers a lifeforms average lifespan in combat.
<!--QuoteBegin-NGE+Mar 9 2005, 06:49 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (NGE @ Mar 9 2005, 06:49 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Why use analogies at all? Stating what you're trying to say without comparing apples to oranges is pretty much the best thing you could do.
And for the record, you can spot cloakers, if you look hard enough, or use a totally FREE scan, baring the cost of an obs.. The obs seems to counter 2 upgrades, doesn't it? Or shall we say 3? SOF is matched by MT, so the advantage becomes null on both sides. Does this in turn make the DC overpowered because it's the only chamber not hurt too badly by the construction of an obs?
Silence allows you to travel, full normal speed, without making a sound. Walking allows you to travel significantly slower, still making the occasional "tick" from an unsteady hand, with bite noise and running sound in combat. Silence's advantage does NOT dissapear in combat, whereas cloaking's advantage does. It's got plenty good going for it, and forcing the rines to spend a large investment of res in a relitivly slow upgrade in the weakest structure in order to stand a chance vs you seems like a good deal to me. That res could go towards weapons 2 or something else that drastically lowers a lifeforms average lifespan in combat. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I used an analogy to prove that sight is ultimately more useful than sound. They are similar in that they both help the marine player detect an incoming alien, thats the medium.
You CAN'T spot cloakers when they stop moving, even when semi cloaked, they just need to hide and they are fully cloaked once again. Even when they are scanned, an alien just needs to go into another room and cloak once again. I'll disagree when you say SOF is matched by MT. MT IS countered by cloaking. SOF is not countered at all, cloaking is at most countered by lucky scans and focus is still effective, even with armor upgrades. In short, your logic that the obs counters 3 upgrades is not true, but the obs, or more specifically MT does counter silence.
I don't see how there is an advantage in using silence, when MT already knows where you are. And even in combat, I find celerity more useful as it closes the distance faster, allows you to dodge better, and allows for a better chance of escaping.
The fact is does weapons 2 completely render an upgrade worthless? You already have the upgrade only useful in ambushing situations, when celerity or adrenaline are useful in many more scenarios. Cloaking is even better at ambushing and even then, it does not get nullified by MT. Why don't you compare silence to celerity or adrenaline? After all, it's in the same chamber. I think 35 res is pretty cheap compared to placing countless observatories which each cost 20 res all over the map to see aliens on radar.
Anyone who can bunnyhop, wallstrafe, or wigglewalk is able to move a lot faster and in total silence. Personally I can use two of the above, and can outpace most other players when I need to.
I'm not really fussed about what server you play on, merely telling you that an awful lot of player rely on their ears to tell them "HEY MAN AN ALIEN IS COMING", and that with silence AND bhop/wallstrafe/wiggle you can be in their face before they've properly seen you.
On a continuation, celerity is great for flying around the map. However, you can't dispute the strength of Silence for the almighty ambush. Celerity might make me move faster, adren might let me swipe like a noob, but with silence I can blink in quietly, make a kill, and blink out. Whats more, the marines have very little clue as to where I came from and where I went. Again, its the principle of speed and silence. If you're clever enough to flank or rear attack the marines, then silence will allow you to make a clean attack and then leave. It gets better with Focus, because you can kill things very easily and at high speed.
I don't dispute that celer is better for a frontal attack, but I'm a sneaky little fellow and I've enjoyed some success with Silence. I only ever need to blink two corridors away to avoid rines, and even then its a quick hop to the nearest hive for a cooldown. Its a stealth play, which works pretty well.
Focus attacks "generally" killing things in one hit are very VERY relevant. You're talking about a stealth attacker who can kill in one hit, maybe two. Second, even if you dont outright KILL your opponent, you have softened him up for every other lifeform. Some marines will even stop to weld, which is great when you need to buy some time. If you're really lucky the team will split up, some chasing you, the others going to their WP. Its not all about making kills.
YOU NEED TO COMPARE IT WITH OTHER CHAMBERS because the combination is how it all works out. Silence is a fantastic upgrade when combined with others. Its the same way celerity is great with cara or regen. If you insist on the narrow view of JUST MC ups, then consider that celerity isnt much use in a smack match because you'll get blocked, and adren is great only if you're spamming attacks with no control.
Skulks with adren are good at hitting buildings, little else. A celerity skulk will fly round the map til it collides with marines, where its high speed isn't going to make it live any longer.
You state that MARINES WILL KNOW THAT SOMETHING IS COMING!!!... well, WHOOP DE DOO, funnily enough marines will always know something is coming... as long as theres at least one orange name on the scoreboard, the rines can be assured SOMETHING is coming.
If I am silent and coming round a corner at full tilt, few marines are going to be able to train a weapon on me to avoid one bite. If I attack from an angle they're not aiming at then I can expect to get 2 bites in. If he has MT its a different story, but the MT sprite lags a little and at high speed you can radically alter your trajectory so the marine is aiming elsewhere.
Further, if they're not looking directly at you then you should be easily set up for a two bite run because they wont hear anything behind them.. and by the time the minimap shows a dot you'll pretty much be on them.
MT does not nullify silence. Its good against silence, but it wont nullify it if you're moving fast enough.
I WILL use player skill as a variable, because thats what the dev team had to do. I WILL use other chambers as a variable, because again thats what the dev team had to do.
Silence NEEDS a certain skill level in order to work. Its like Focus in that respect. Focus is great but you need to learn how to control your attacks in order to benefit. Silence needs a player who knows how to ambush, knows how to move fast, and knows how to control his attacks. Upgrades are about capitalising on strengths or removing weaknesses. If you can move fast with bhop, and you don't bite like crazy, then Silence is a great way to get a little boost. All the better when second hive arrives and you get more upgrades.
Even at endgame I can use silence because marines have more pressing concerns and dont have time to listen for someone biting the Obs.
Silence means a marine needs to be looking at you direction in order to zero you. You will hear only the marines, so if they all stop dead then you can guess that you've been made. If you're hitting from the side or rear (which is 1/2 the time) then you can be on them before they've thought "hey maybe we should cover the rear".
In the big rush of combat, marines will not be looking for blips, they will be listening for biting sounds. If your silence wolfpack manages to sneak attack marines from the rear, you can carve them up before they're aware of the fact.
Silence only really loses out with the Lerk and Onos. Both are a waste of a good upgrade. Skulks, Fades, and gorges can always benefit from silence (if SC are down then silenced gorges can become evil masters of sudden lame).
Does the marine see the skulk on MT? No. Does the marine know the skulk is coming? No. Will the marine hear the skulk? No. Will the skulk win this encounter? Definately.
The skulk isn't moving, thus, MT is useless. By the time it becomes effective, the skulk is behind the marine and the marine is oblivious to his untimely doom.
This is two scenarios off the top of my head where silence is effective. I could begin to name more... Oh and BTW, motion tracking isn't perfect, it comes in blips, and if a skulk is moving rather quickly (as in, LEAP), he'll move too fast for the marine to know he's coming by watching MT. By the time the marine sees the blue blip, the skulk is in his face.
But I'm interested to see what your counter points are...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Anyone who can bunnyhop, wallstrafe, or wigglewalk is able to move a lot faster and in total silence. Personally I can use two of the above, and can outpace most other players when I need to.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It seems to me you are stating the obvious. I understand the benefits of silence early game, but later on, MT renders it useless. Why don't you admit it instead of diverting the statement with facts I already know?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm not really fussed about what server you play on, merely telling you that an awful lot of player rely on their ears to tell them "HEY MAN AN ALIEN IS COMING", and that with silence AND bhop/wallstrafe/wiggle you can be in their face before they've properly seen you.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As I said previously, I know. But the fact is, with those techniques you said will make you fast, but when combined with celerity, it becomes even more effective.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->On a continuation, celerity is great for flying around the map. However, you can't dispute the strength of Silence for the almighty ambush. Celerity might make me move faster, adren might let me swipe like a noob, but with silence I can blink in quietly, make a kill, and blink out. Whats more, the marines have very little clue as to where I came from and where I went. Again, its the principle of speed and silence. If you're clever enough to flank or rear attack the marines, then silence will allow you to make a clean attack and then leave. It gets better with Focus, because you can kill things very easily and at high speed.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You don't seem to realize the power of speed. With speed, you are able to get to the marines faster, escape faster, and scout the map better. Admitted, silence is effective in ambushes... but that's it. I'd trade ambushes that are useful in limited situations for speed which is useful in many more scenarios. Again, stop using the fade primarily and try to think of the other forms as well. Sure a fade is still fast without celerity, but to a gorge, or skulk, speed can be the difference between another bite or death. Your reasoning seems to ignore the fact that marines WILL have a clue once they have MT. MT, MT, MT, it exists. You won't have both speed and silence, since you will go JUST as fast without silence.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I don't dispute that celer is better for a frontal attack, but I'm a sneaky little fellow and I've enjoyed some success with Silence. I only ever need to blink two corridors away to avoid rines, and even then its a quick hop to the nearest hive for a cooldown. Its a stealth play, which works pretty well.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again, celerity is not just useful for full on attacks. It can also be useful for scouting areas where marines might try to expand or escaping a pursuing marine. It's not just about fades. Please consider the other 4 lifeforms as well.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Focus attacks "generally" killing things in one hit are very VERY relevant. You're talking about a stealth attacker who can kill in one hit, maybe two. Second, even if you dont outright KILL your opponent, you have softened him up for every other lifeform. Some marines will even stop to weld, which is great when you need to buy some time. If you're really lucky the team will split up, some chasing you, the others going to their WP. Its not all about making kills.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not arguing focus is weak. It's about silence. Anything you can do with silence as a fade, you can do much more better with celerity. If you heard of this thing called MT, it kills the only advantage of silence, hidden positioning of aliens.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->YOU NEED TO COMPARE IT WITH OTHER CHAMBERS because the combination is how it all works out. Silence is a fantastic upgrade when combined with others. Its the same way celerity is great with cara or regen. If you insist on the narrow view of JUST MC ups, then consider that celerity isnt much use in a smack match because you'll get blocked, and adren is great only if you're spamming attacks with no control.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again, if you look at silence by itself, it's a decent upgrade, in the start of the game. If silence does great combined with other upgrades, celerity does it much, much better. Speed can be used defensively, offensively, or as a recon, while silence is limited to ambushes, which is only really effective for the skulk.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Skulks with adren are good at hitting buildings, little else. A celerity skulk will fly round the map til it collides with marines, where its high speed isn't going to make it live any longer.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again, look at the upgrades from a broad point of view. While skulks with adrenaline aren't as viable, lerks are very effective with adrenaline as their attacks use lots of energy.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You state that MARINES WILL KNOW THAT SOMETHING IS COMING!!!... well, WHOOP DE DOO, funnily enough marines will always know something is coming... as long as theres at least one orange name on the scoreboard, the rines can be assured SOMETHING is coming.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is a major difference in knowing an alien is generally in a room by sound versus a blue circle that is pinpointed to the exact location of an alien. Yes, I'm talking about MT.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If I am silent and coming round a corner at full tilt, few marines are going to be able to train a weapon on me to avoid one bite. If I attack from an angle they're not aiming at then I can expect to get 2 bites in. If he has MT its a different story, but the MT sprite lags a little and at high speed you can radically alter your trajectory so the marine is aiming elsewhere.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I never said silence is weak early game. In fact, I said silence is one of the best upgrades early game. However, MT destroys its only true advantage in ambushing. I won't bother with your MT sprite lagging theory, as MT is very effective in my point of view. If your argument would be true, then there would be no point in upgrading MT.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Further, if they're not looking directly at you then you should be easily set up for a two bite run because they wont hear anything behind them.. and by the time the minimap shows a dot you'll pretty much be on them.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Once again, you don't need silence to do ambushes.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->MT does not nullify silence. Its good against silence, but it wont nullify it if you're moving fast enough.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I disagree with you. Silence is only useful for ambushes with MT, but even then, you can still ambush WITHOUT silence. You can't dodge MT with speed. Even if you have celerity, MT will track you down. Think of the police.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I WILL use player skill as a variable, because thats what the dev team had to do. I WILL use other chambers as a variable, because again thats what the dev team had to do.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You don't seem to understand. It's not that the devs chose not to change player skill, it's that THEY CAN'T. There will be good and bad players in any game. Even if I didn't argue that silence + upgrade x is weak, go ahead. In nearly all cases, celerity + x is definitely better, especially when MT is used.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Silence NEEDS a certain skill level in order to work. Its like Focus in that respect. Focus is great but you need to learn how to control your attacks in order to benefit. Silence needs a player who knows how to ambush, knows how to move fast, and knows how to control his attacks. Upgrades are about capitalising on strengths or removing weaknesses. If you can move fast with bhop, and you don't bite like crazy, then Silence is a great way to get a little boost. All the better when second hive arrives and you get more upgrades.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Silence is effective early game, I understand that. MT renders it useless, however. This may be the 10th time I've said that. Moving fast and controlling attacks is also applied without silence and to celerity, so I don't see it as an argument. If you think bhop and bite is great, celerity bhop and bite works much faster and better.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Even at endgame I can use silence because marines have more pressing concerns and dont have time to listen for someone biting the Obs.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You do realize it plays the "YOU BASE IN UNDER ATTACK!" sound right?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Silence means a marine needs to be looking at you direction in order to zero you. You will hear only the marines, so if they all stop dead then you can guess that you've been made. If you're hitting from the side or rear (which is 1/2 the time) then you can be on them before they've thought "hey maybe we should cover the rear".<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exactly my point. Not only does the marine have to wander into the room you are in for the upgrade to be effective, but he also has to be facing a certain direction as well. Celerity and adrenaline however, are useful in many more situations than this.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In the big rush of combat, marines will not be looking for blips, they will be listening for biting sounds. If your silence wolfpack manages to sneak attack marines from the rear, you can carve them up before they're aware of the fact.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You will never even see blips when you are in the same room as the enemy. It's admittedly more useful to seeing your foe versus hearing them.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Silence only really loses out with the Lerk and Onos. Both are a waste of a good upgrade. Skulks, Fades, and gorges can always benefit from silence (if SC are down then silenced gorges can become evil masters of sudden lame). <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So you are admitting silence is less useful than celerity. By saying if SC are down, than you are probably implying that cloak would be useful to gorges since it negates MT right? Why would you need silence in that case, since cloaking allows you to conceal your location?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Here, let's make this simple
Will the marine see the skulk on MT? No. Will the marine know he is coming? No. Does he have a massive element of suprise? Yes.
The skulk is coming from behind the marine, and since the marine doesn't have eyes in the back of his head, he's screwed.
CODE
| | <skulk> | ______ |
<marine> ___________________________________
Does the marine see the skulk on MT? No. Does the marine know the skulk is coming? No. Will the marine hear the skulk? No. Will the skulk win this encounter? Definately.
The skulk isn't moving, thus, MT is useless. By the time it becomes effective, the skulk is behind the marine and the marine is oblivious to his untimely doom.
This is two scenarios off the top of my head where silence is effective. I could begin to name more... Oh and BTW, motion tracking isn't perfect, it comes in blips, and if a skulk is moving rather quickly (as in, LEAP), he'll move too fast for the marine to know he's coming by watching MT. By the time the marine sees the blue blip, the skulk is in his face.
But I'm interested to see what your counter points are...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your example only demonstrates ramboing, which is already nerfed by other upgrades. Not to mention the fact that regardless of silence, you can still ambush marines. In fact celerity, can be more useful since you can get the bite on the marine faster. Not only that, but later on, phase gates reduce walking, which in turn reduce ambushes. In addition to that, what if the marine saw you crawling above that wall before he walked into the room?
It doesn't matter if the skulk leaps. When the skulk lands however, it's location will be known. For the situations you name where silence is worthy with MT, celerity can do the job faster, and has more situations where it is useful.
I'm really tired of repeating the same argument I've said. Regardless of what anyone says, silence will only be useful in ambushes when the marine does NOT know where or even if you are coming, which is primarily early game. Celerity and adrenaline is useful in many more situations, more than just ambushing. Even if silence helps ambush, you can still ambush without silence. MT strips the ambushing element period, unless you have some lab controlled situation such as one where only one marine walks by himself, and if the marine does not noticed a blue blip above the doorway he is going to enter. When ambushing is weakened, so is the purpose of silence. I rest my case.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->boost at level 1, Having your sounds muffled, but still audible is USELESS.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So make sure to have 3 of them. do it yourself (haha <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> ) if necessary. Like senso strategy which need 3 senso up at the very begining. This is how NS works : 3 chambers to get upgrade at full potential. Period.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I don't see how you need silence to listen to footsteps. They move undetected... UNTIL MT, which is my argument.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They listen because they don't have and need to "see" the marins... if they are undetected the just have to listen to know where the enemy unit is. Sometimes wait for him/them, sometimes attack. It depends on location in the map.
MT??? .... ok NS curse unit 1, lesson 1 observatory take 15sec to be built. 1m40 (~45) seconds for MT to be UP. Considering they build obs first... but usually that's not the case. Usually observatory comes after 1 minute on public servers, maybee more. This let aliens control the map during almost 3 minutes. Large enough to get ready to build a hive and handle the situation. Fades are coming, second hive too.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I previously have stated I'm talking about NS here, not combat. I don't understand what you are saying; my examples are from games of NS... what's your point? I understand that all 3 upgrades for the movement chamber have different purposes, but MT destroys one of them, while the other 2 aren't as effective. And that is why I believe it is wrong.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again... same for sensory.
MC is far more useful than senso when things go bad for aliens. Even if the stealth capabilities are almost gone, but not entirely. It depends on player and how they use MT. héhé MT doesn't do the job alone; marins have to look in all directions.
So even with MT , they still have adrenaline for eating fast, and celerity for running fast. This is one of the most balanced chamber and powerfull chamber. But a lot of player; mostly pub players arn't aware of this power. Power related to teamwork
And MC can teleport to main hive or attacked hive.
With senso you just still have focus, but the trick is gone as you cannot hide anymore (if well played). It makes the game turning back to the first minutes. Weak skulk VS marins who shoot from far... far away...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I never had said that when structures are under attack, if aliens have silence the "under attack" should NOT play. My point was that even when attacking structures, celerity allows you to escape or dodge shots, and adrenaline allows quicker RT demolishing, while silence does not give any benefits. This concludes to the more restricted use of silence.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is a bug in NS that makes sound alerts are not played when multiple sound are triggered. The sounds are not mixed together. The last sound triggered take the sound channels. That mean if there is 2 alerts almost tirgered at the same time, only one will be played / heard. This an issue of the HL engine. So commander don't wait for Alerts... they check each RT. That's why you idea is stupid. You don't know the CC, play more NS.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm afraid you haven't played enough 3.0F. If you are cloaked, it BLOCKS MT. Cloaking allows you to be in the most obvious spots, while silence requires you to be hidden and staying still, that's the difference. MT IS countered by cloaking. If you disagree with this, show me evidence, otherwise I'm going to go with what the 3.0 manual says.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Manual says: [...]Kharaa can counter this effect by standing still, or staying close to sensory chambers.
Means that you counter MT only in senso effective radius. So not on all the map. There is a fact. It is really hard to cover all the map with sensory chambers before 6 minutes. Enough time to get spanked by marins if senso are badly located.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I don't understand your logic of how silence allows you to travel more than celerity. The reason I say it saves energy is because it takes less energy to travel the same distance with blink and celerity, than it does with silence and blink. If you can blink through the entire map with only 50% energy, imagine how much more energy you will save with celerity!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fade = blink... use the force luke.
-I Don't need half of energy to kill a marins (it's the point after all). -I don't need celerity to get close to a marins. -Celerity is not really useful because map are not made with straight lanes. There are bunch of obsticles, turns, ladders that makes celerity not really useful exept landing his face on the wall more quickly.
And why travel more than the top left to the bottom right??? if you can do it with silence you'll see that it is far more effective than celerity... because when marins realize you're here , it too late...
And why saving 'a lot more energy' if i don't need it? What is the point. I blink, i kill the guy, i re-blink seeking some fresh meat... Considering that traveling all around the map make you go to (at least) one hive from time to time or close to a MC (in a vent for example). So why should i save?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->No the conclusion is you need to play 3.0F a bit more and use celerity a bit more.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I use it since 1.04... always got back to silence.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You say that silence allows you to travel more when it gives no movement buffs like celerity. Hell, you travel the same distance with or withOUT silence.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Learn Bunny Hopping and you'll see. Learn to blink effectively and you'll see.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Noobs begin by cloaking? I'm talking about NS here, not combat where you can get all 9 upgrades from the start. Experienced players also use celerity, please don't give me this random statistics from sources you pulled out of your butt.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
All the vets i know who got in the top CB ladder (once upon a time <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> ) like some RaB, D/y, have said at least one time that silence rox. I'm pretty sure some vets over here would agree (i don't know if they answered here). If they are my butt... darn my butt looks gooood <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
And i can show you i you like even if i get 300ping; gimme server ip.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You wan't this thread closed? Why don't you report it to a mod... Or better yet, DON'T READ WHAT I WRITE! I have an opinion, and whether you like it or not, it stays. And for the record, Zunni mods threads in I&S. I'm discussing silence here, which I would have placed in beta discussion, but you know why I haven't. In fact, Nem0 had looked at this thread, and left it open, which means IT IS LEGIT. So stop whining with your "please close omg" crap.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Right back at you. Stop whining 'silence' is not enough good. Learn to play it. I mean pratice it seriously... At least one month. only silence. even if MC is in second hive. Use only silence. you'll see. Don't sensory got 'buffed' and now it's over powered. I think next version will remove some senso attribute.
[QUOTE]So make sure to have 3 of them. do it yourself (haha ) if necessary. Like senso strategy which need 3 senso up at the very begining. This is how NS works : 3 chambers to get upgrade at full potential. Period. [/QUOTE]
My point was that even at levels 1 or 2, silence is useless, while all other upgrades give a boost, a minor one, but still a boost. Thanks for telling me something I've known since 1.04.
And there are strategies that involve dropping one chamber in key locations.
[QUOTE]They listen because they don't have and need to "see" the marins... if they are undetected the just have to listen to know where the enemy unit is. Sometimes wait for him/them, sometimes attack. It depends on location in the map.[/quote]
I said this regardless if you have silence or not you won't hear marines better or worse; it's the same. When I said undetected, I meant aliens go undetected, until MT is up, not marines.
[QUOTE]MT??? .... ok NS curse unit 1, lesson 1 observatory take 15sec to be built. 1m40 (~45) seconds for MT to be UP. Considering they build obs first... but usually that's not the case. Usually observatory comes after 1 minute on public servers, maybee more. This let aliens control the map during almost 3 minutes. Large enough to get ready to build a hive and handle the situation. Fades are coming, second hive too.[/quote]
Exactly my point. That's around 2min where silence is effective, but the rest of the game, silence is pointless compared to celerity or adrenaline. The rest of your statement applies to games without movement first.
[QUOTE]Again... same for sensory.
MC is far more useful than senso when things go bad for aliens. Even if the stealth capabilities are almost gone, but not entirely. It depends on player and how they use MT. héhé MT doesn't do the job alone; marins have to look in all directions.
So even with MT , they still have adrenaline for eating fast, and celerity for running fast. This is one of the most balanced chamber and powerfull chamber. But a lot of player; mostly pub players arn't aware of this power. Power related to teamwork
And MC can teleport to main hive or attacked hive.
With senso you just still have focus, but the trick is gone as you cannot hide anymore (if well played). It makes the game turning back to the first minutes. Weak skulk VS marins who shoot from far... far away...[/quote]
I'm not comparing the chamber effects, nor am I saying that one chamber is better than another. I never said MCs are weak, in fact I like using them. I am discussing silence, the upgrade, nothing more, nothing less.
[QUOTE]There is a bug in NS that makes sound alerts are not played when multiple sound are triggered. The sounds are not mixed together. The last sound triggered take the sound channels. That mean if there is 2 alerts almost tirgered at the same time, only one will be played / heard. This an issue of the HL engine. So commander don't wait for Alerts... they check each RT. That's why you idea is stupid. You don't know the CC, play more NS.[/quote]
My idea is stupid because of a bug? My purpose in using the fact that RTs show sound is that when it does happen, adrenaline and celerity is still useful, while silence is... not useful at all in this situation. I doubt there would be many games where you have 2 skulks start chomping on RTs at the same exact time, and even if you do, you can save/recap it.
[QUOTE]Manual says: [...]Kharaa can counter this effect by standing still, or staying close to sensory chambers.
Means that you counter MT only in senso effective radius. So not on all the map. There is a fact. It is really hard to cover all the map with sensory chambers before 6 minutes. Enough time to get spanked by marins if senso are badly located[/quote]
But the source you just used says you can counter by standing still... which means without a sensory chamber since it says OR without sensory chambers. But the argument isn't whether cloak does or does not effective counter MT. It's that MT destroys silence.
[QUOTE]Fade = blink... use the force luke.
-I Don't need half of energy to kill a marins (it's the point after all). -I don't need celerity to get close to a marins. -Celerity is not really useful because map are not made with straight lanes. There are bunch of obsticles, turns, ladders that makes celerity not really useful exept landing his face on the wall more quickly.
And why travel more than the top left to the bottom right??? if you can do it with silence you'll see that it is far more effective than celerity... because when marins realize you're here , it too late...
And why saving 'a lot more energy' if i don't need it? What is the point. I blink, i kill the guy, i re-blink seeking some fresh meat... Considering that traveling all around the map make you go to (at least) one hive from time to time or close to a MC (in a vent for example). So why should i save?[/quote]
I understand you may not use a full energy bar in battles, but you may be short on energy when metabolizing or taking down res towers. Even if some maps are twisty, you still would be slower to traverse through all that, if you didn't get celerity.
[QUOTE]Learn Bunny Hopping and you'll see. Learn to blink effectively and you'll see.[/quote]
I don't need to learn bhop. Everyone knows all silence does is muffle sound. It does not make you faster meaning you will travel at the same speed before you upgraded silence.
[QUOTE]All the vets i know who got in the top CB ladder (once upon a time ) like some RaB, D/y, have said at least one time that silence rox. I'm pretty sure some vets over here would agree (i don't know if they answered here). If they are my butt... darn my butt looks gooood
And i can show you i you like even if i get 300ping; gimme server ip.[quote]
Uh... so if vets say something, it's law right? Especially since it's before beta3F. And it is proven law that my butt's more sexier than your butt. =/
[QUOTE]Right back at you. Stop whining 'silence' is not enough good. Learn to play it. I mean pratice it seriously... At least one month. only silence. even if MC is in second hive. Use only silence. you'll see. Don't sensory got 'buffed' and now it's over powered. I think next version will remove some senso attribute.[/quote]
Whining is different from discussing. Whining is asking mods to lock threads, when the mods themselves have already read it and left it open. Discussing allows people to share their views on a matter comparing and contrasting. Discussions are not where people automatically agree. You have to be flexible and think of the postitive and negative effects of multiple ideas. Regardless of what you say, I still believe celerity is better than silence, due to it's multi-usefulness.
Bad: When not fully maxed, the semi-alert player will still detect the danger of an enemy near by. Even when fully maxed, you still are slow with a loss of energy, which makes it more of a one time use, which isnt usefull unless you plan to xenocide or forward area build only. A single semi-alert player has more of a chance to kill a silenced skulk as the skulk is lack of mobility needed to dodge a steam of bullets or anything else for that matter. All high-end items(and shotguns) tend to negate silence due to the powerfull nature of MT, or the Upgraded Shotgun. Jetpacks also increase the chance of an encounter in vents.
Good: When fully maxed, the user can sneak about the map utilizing vents located around all NS maps. Silence is very beneficial for avoiding vanilla marines, as they have no way of detecting or encountering a skulk if it stays in the vents. It also tends to surprise players in the fashion of Doom3 or spook'em movies. As sometimes, you arent really expecting something to jump from a corner. It basically allows the user to avoid semi-upgraded marines, and lets players get behind marines. It works best with fades because of the high-mobility of blink.
End Result: Silence is an early upgrade that gives skulks a chance to surprise players that have moderate skill, and players with lack of team work. Its more suited torward pubs where skill varies.
Celerity:
Bad: Lack of energy can still wind the upper classes if they are participating in a heavy attack. The increase of speed doesent totally eliminate sound. The extra-speed can make agility in tight spaces alittle hard when precision is required (Strafing through a bunch of marines has a tendancy to confuse most players, except for the elite.) Celerity is usually used more as a more straight forward method for attacking, rather the alien style of ambush usually due the the fact that it doesent increase your traveling speed in air when doing a duck drop (Duck key to detach from ceiling.)
Good: The extra speed, like silence, can surprise some players, but it also grants the ability to reach the enemy sooner. A bhopping skulk/Fade can propel him self down a hallway fast enough to give the marines a harder time judging the distance of the alien due to the velocities one could reach. There are no real downsides to celerity in early, or late game. It is the ulitimate tool for assaulting players or even minor squads. There are no really counters to celerity other than MT, since that is just an all round counter to aliens in general. Except for heavily fortified bases, which can require mass ammount of energy in order to demolish in a set timeframe. This skill benefiets all classes but the gorge, since reaching the enemy in the least ammount of time is what melee is all about in NS.
End Result: Reaching the enemy faster can increase your chances of living depending on your enemys reaction time, and weapons. It has no major weaknesses other than being obsolete for base assault. (Fade can still use it for hit and runs on bases, but regen still has a similar effect.) Celerity can be used in conjunction with cloak, even though the benefiet wouldnt be that big.
Over All? Celerity Compatibility, Surperior mobility is a better counter in any action game because reflex is the one thing that can make or break a good gamer. Silence is more tactical, marines would benefeit it more to have silence so they can set up PGs in or near alien bases. If aliens had a way of high mobility without celerity, (Say it get around the map.) then silence would be more use. Celerity gets you that much closer to a turret, that much closer to catching those marines in your hive, that much closer to that one last bite you need. Silence lags you with the only ability of ambush or small tactical use.
Suggestions? Silence just needs to do something other than prevent sound. Yes, sound is a big part of any game, but gamers invest in improving their accuracy, because all games revolve around it. And blind people don't play video games... Which if they did, then yeah, silence is an excellent choice.
Only thing I can think of? Shrink or Remove mass from the model when the upgrade of silence is chosen. Lack of mobility makes you a target, lack of mass makes you a harder target to hit. Mix smaller mass and no sound, gives the player a closer chance to benefiet as much as a player with celerity would.
Comments
It makes you sound like you;re very far away, as I found out today when I was blinking down a hall and ran into an unsuspecting Marine, who then asked if I speedhacked because he heard me far away and I closed the distance so "quickly". I then inform of level 2 silence, and he cursed himself out laughing.
Level 1 isn't good, but how many level 1 upgrades are really "good" these days?
At least 2 still somewhat works.
Be a skulk.
Hide.
You'd be surprised some of the places you can hide. Often in plain sight.
I've killed far more marines using silence than cloaking. With cloaking, I'm nearly guarunteed a kill. With silence, I'm not only nearly guarunteed the kill, I'll probably survive the marine's buddy. Sometimes take him down as well.
MT counters silence some.
But get in the same room with a marine who knows you're there and I'd far prefer silence over cloaking. Blue circles don't mean much when the skulk is spinning around you and bouncing off the walls. In fact, when you have silence, they tend to help, as the marine doesn't have the clicky-clacky to help him correct so winds up shooting the circle.. but the circle's where you were. Not where you are.
Perhaps your play-style simply isn't suited for silence. Different people have different specialties.
this is definitely a good point to make. I for one don't have a this magical eye to see anything and everything on the map. This is due to poor eyesight coupled with a dark monitor and hella dark maps. I DO however have a VERY nice speaker system that allows me to quite accurately pinpoint the position of a sound in a map. The blurry image i actually see really only helps me out as a feedback mechanism assuring me that I did actually move my mouse to the right position intended. Needless to say, the Silence upgrade is absolutely enfuriating to me as it kills me almost every time as my visual accuity and response aren't up to par.
Now I'm not so naive to think that anything more than a very small minority of our community are in the same predicament as I, but it does nevertheless attest to the effectiveness of different styles of play in the hands of those with a true affinity for that style of play as opposed to just any joe schmoe that picks up the upgrade.
As an example, i know people who will choose regen (even as a skulk) simply because it fits with their style of play better than carapace does and vice-versa. Those two upgrades may not have a direct analogy to the upgrades at hand (movement upgrades), but the principle still remains.
Who cares if there is an infallible counter to Silence, even very early on in the game. You are trying to analyze the upgrade out of the context of the game it is played with. In all likelihood there WILL be other upgrades available to you (if not now, then soon). In all likelihood there WILL be other players that can serve as distraction for you while you flank a position. In all likelihood there WILL be players that are disoriented by seeing things they cannot hear. All the testimony we've heard from you actually sends the message not to use Silence against YOU as you claim that someone given your skills would be helpless with it outside a select few anomalies of gameplay... though I beg to differ as I consider myself VERY deadly with the Silence upgrade in my pocket, and I don't consider myself all that great of a player.
As a case in point, assume that you are a skulk with silence and are traveling with two other skulks (assume not silenced) when you hear footsteps in the distance. Also assume that MT has been researched and the marine(s) essentially know where we are already. Being the above sludge intelligence human beings that my teammates are they know that there may be more than one person ahead and would therefore be more prudent to push the attack together rather than to split apart (or heaven forbid, run away). You figure that you can use this to your advantage by allowing them be the 'larger threat' on MT (psychology would tell you that most people would be more apt to follow the two targets rather than the one if nothing else is known about them). Thus you've just created an opportunity to flank regardless of the fact that the marines can "technically" know where you are at all times anyways. Since they aren't likely looking in your direction you'll still have the upper hand as they can't hear you either. When you do finally hit it causes confusion amongst a few and even if you do end up dying you've allowed your other teammates a higher chance of survival to close their distance and finish up the job you started. This case also works in the event that MT does NOT exist as the marines will still hear the other two coming and be unaware of your approach from the flank.
It is all about intelligent deployment of tactics in real world (in-game?) situations, not the technical "lab room" arguments that require some level of controlled variables. If there's one thing you can be assured about outside of a laboratory, its that nothing is ever assured.
The fact is that the instant someone hears an alien trotting around somewhere they get that boost of adrenaline and get ready for an attack. With silence, their reaction is highly delayed because they don't expect it at all. Personally, I think silence is the best upgrade; you can follow marines and run around the map knowing that no marine knows where you are... unless they have motion tracking.
Wow, hiding as a skulk, boy I sure did not know that! This whole time I thought skulks were supposed to stand in open ground like sumo wrasslers!
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Be a skulk.
Hide.
You'd be surprised some of the places you can hide. Often in plain sight.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How vague can you be? Holy crap, I didn't know skulks can hide in... vents!
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I've killed far more marines using silence than cloaking. With cloaking, I'm nearly guarunteed a kill. With silence, I'm not only nearly guarunteed the kill, I'll probably survive the marine's buddy. Sometimes take him down as well.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, because your personal experience with "probablies and nearlies" automatically makes mine obsolete.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->MT counters silence some.
But get in the same room with a marine who knows you're there and I'd far prefer silence over cloaking. Blue circles don't mean much when the skulk is spinning around you and bouncing off the walls. In fact, when you have silence, they tend to help, as the marine doesn't have the clicky-clacky to help him correct so winds up shooting the circle.. but the circle's where you were. Not where you are.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd like to hear your definitition of some. I'm going to have to disagree with you and say sight > sound. It's a cute story, but the last time I played NS, blue circles only appeared when they are BEHIND A WALL.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Perhaps your play-style simply isn't suited for silence. Different people have different specialties.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because I argue about a feature, that automatically makes me skilless, right. However, I will agree with you on your second statement.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Sight is nothing to a good marine. They tune in more to sound than to anything else. It's possible to jump around near a marine with silence and they may never see you if their pov is limited. It's easy for me now to pick out a cloaked alien unless they're standing perfectly still, and the instant I hear an alien moving I go into defensive mode. There are plenty of places to hide in maps without ever needing cloaking. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok, let's remove the element of sound. Turn off speakers, headphones whatever. Now let's remove the element of sight. Blindfold yourself. Let's see which is easier to play.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The fact is that the instant someone hears an alien trotting around somewhere they get that boost of adrenaline and get ready for an attack. With silence, their reaction is highly delayed because they don't expect it at all. Personally, I think silence is the best upgrade; you can follow marines and run around the map knowing that no marine knows where you are... unless they have motion tracking. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok, your argument would be valid, but then you do my work and defeat yourself with this phrase: "unless they have motion tracking."
So, basically it all comes down to what Zek says: Silence is NOT weak early game, however, MT renders silence worthless compared to adrenaline or celerity.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you have celerity regardless of mt you can move silently without making sound about as fast a marine maybe a little faster. And then you can move really fast when you need to also making up for the speed reduction whilie "skulking" about. To a skulk who has mastered moving forward with taps when he thinks rines around silence isn't near celerity. Except for nub <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif' /><!--endemo--> s like homi.
Be a skulk.
Hide.
You'd be surprised some of the places you can hide. Often in plain sight.
I've killed far more marines using silence than cloaking. With cloaking, I'm nearly guarunteed a kill. With silence, I'm not only nearly guarunteed the kill, I'll probably survive the marine's buddy. Sometimes take him down as well.
MT counters silence some.
But get in the same room with a marine who knows you're there and I'd far prefer silence over cloaking. Blue circles don't mean much when the skulk is spinning around you and bouncing off the walls. In fact, when you have silence, they tend to help, as the marine doesn't have the clicky-clacky to help him correct so winds up shooting the circle.. but the circle's where you were. Not where you are.
Perhaps your play-style simply isn't suited for silence. Different people have different specialties. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
MT brualizes silence. Far more then it effects cloakers.
Funnily enough, just reading the title of the thread made me appreciate the value of silence all the more.
This thread demonstrates that #NSLearn is in need of an article to teach the usage of silence.
I'm afraid you don't understand my reasoning. If you look in the dictionary you will find silence means: the absence of sound. The problem is that at levels 1 and 2, there IS sound. It may be muffled a bit, but it is still there. When you look at cloaking, you can see how the devs finally realized that 50% or 70% cloaking just won't cut it. It has to be 100% cloaking, otherwise it's useless. I believe silence goes on the same trend. Level 1 or 2 carapace STILL gives you benefits of taking more damage, even if it is small.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Silence ... maybe a name that isn't relevant when alien only have 1 or 2 chamber. So what? This doesn't worth a huge thread. ok let's call it "STEALTH"... happy now?
And if it's a problem of 'bad luck only one MC!' so gorge and do them.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> No, it's better to take out res as fast as possible, rather to have 1 guy chomping res and 5 other skulks watching him, waiting for a marine that might not even come. If you are a skulk, you were designed to chomp RTs. Celerity and Adrenaline both give benefits here, but silence is limited, which is my point.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You talk about that as if MC strategy were static like sensory. This isn't the case; AT ALL. MC strategies are the most dinamic strategies of NS. Who said that there will be one skulk to bite RT? They can be 2 and be really devastating. Who said that you have to wait for a marins to come. Silent skulks move where the marins are, they listen (THIS IS THE POINT) to their noise, locate them, and ambush them were they are. And all in one package; plus they move undetected. If played well no marins comes out the base without heavy damage.
You should play more NS and adapt your REASONING to the game itself. You don't play NS_ like CO_. You don't rush in front of them. You don't wait for marins to come. You make you team develop. On the alien side you have 3 choices. And you play differently each of them.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I seem to infer that you don't understand my argument. The fact is that silence is worthless when attacking RTs. The upgrade that was designed to hide your location is given away when biting RTs...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You don't have arguments. This idea is stupid. This is not balanced. One of the problem of NS is the balance. You don't realize that this idea is ruining it. As long as we can call it an idea. Think about all the possibilities before talking anout that; and not only to you personnal 'comfort'. Skill yourself!
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Obviously. What I implied is that even with a group of marines, cloak guarantees at least 1 bite. Silence however is harder to do with MT. You must be standing still, and even when you do close the distance, a marine can use the element of sight and smoke you before you can land a single bite.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exactly the same for sensory... You cannot ambush when MT is up. Unless you wait for a long time. But the time factor in NS is crucial. By the time MT is up PhaseGate is up too. Marins don't have to walk long lanes waiting for you to ambush. And you wait alone in you location... pathetic.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Even if MT was effective against cloaking, I am very sure that aliens under a sensory chamber do not show up. Not only that, but the sensory chamber offers more benefits with it's chamber abilities (not just upgrades), than movement.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Still wrong. Actually Motion Tracking shows every movement that is hidden by wall or other things, let's call it obticles. Even in the sensory radius. Ns Motion tracking is a lot 'something behind the walls' is moving.
A ommander have the minimap. Thinking you ambush with cloaking. Motion tracking is T3H thing that give the tip to commander to locate you. And mostly when MT is up the commander don't have to tell anything with experienced players.
Plus when alien use sensory; commander systematicaly upgrade armor... When MT is up usually marins have armor level2 and alien still have one hive. Even if you bite one time the marins kills you, get his medpack and roll again. What the point of biting one time? It's about interception and killing a single one to neutralize the enemy team.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm sorry, but I find celerity FAR more effective as a fade. You travel the map faster, Blink uses less energy, and when low on energy, at least your running speed is improved. I'm not arguing about combat lerks, or even combat; I'm talking about NS.
Also consider the benefits of silence and cloaking, or silence and focus. Focus silence generally means one hit one kill, so you can afford to miss out on adren, etc, because you'll only be blinking in to kill one guy.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wrong again! You can travel a lot with silence. Just use a key like space. If done well the fade save a lot energy. I usually 'blink' through the entire map with half energy.
One hit one kill? Only at the begining. Usually marins get armor lvl1... then you die.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This thread demonstrates that #NSLearn is in need of an article to teach the usage of silence. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Agreed
Conclusion:
Everybody who answered was in glory of silence.
I think you are a freshmeat skulk and you are unable to adapt to different styles. Noobs begins by cloaking. Experienced player play it with silence. And they know why!
Zunny : apply the thread closer pls...
This thread demonstrates that #NSLearn is in need of an article to teach the usage of silence. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Great idea! they should also have bit more articles I think. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
not entirely true. with 2 hives and leap, silence+leap skulks are very deadly, mt or not. as for early-game... true that silence is rendered pretty useless by mt, but does that really matter? it IS the strongest early-game upgrade available, by far. if the marines need a whole separate (and expensive) upgrade just to counter it isnt it pretty balanced?
Practical purposes, one would tend to assume, would be moving around the map, hitting marines from behind and chewing on their resource nodes. Bunnyhopping silently allows you to close two rooms worth of distance in around a second. Very few marines check behind them once every second.
The balance of the game seems to be tilted already in the aliens favor. So why do we want to talk about buffing alien abilities?
You can't talk about making silence better without mentioning how it is going to better balance the game. Right now, making silence better will only unbalance the game further. It is the marines turn to get a improvement. Besides, this should be in ideas and suggestions anyway. <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /><!--endemo-->
And teamwork brutalizes cloaking. Far more than it does silence.
Except teamwork is available without upgrades.
So really, it depends to some extent on the quality of the marine team you're up against.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Good job Tomekki for being the worst poster in this thread. So how would I have made my points on silence if I never used it? If I use celerity instead of silence, does that make me a worse skulk player?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
From reading your first post, I’d have to agree with Tomekki - it seems that you've never used silence. I die a lot quicker to silence skulks rather than celerity skulks - I use sound, and pretty much sound alone, to track skulks through walls / rooms. When someone goes silent, I don’t know they're there until they're in my face biting - to make it even worse have them cloak and run around, then my primary way of tracking skulks is gone.
To say that 3 MCs would grant people using silence the ability to chew up structures and not have the commander be notified is pure insanity and only shows how little experience you have using silence.
Once again, silence is fine.
Funnily enough, just reading the title of the thread made me appreciate the value of silence all the more.
This thread demonstrates that #NSLearn is in need of an article to teach the usage of silence. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Grendel, I know you have played NS far longer than me, but even SwiftSpear acknowledges the nuking of silence when MT rolls around. And if you really think I need to learn how to use silence, WHY DON'T YOU POST REASONS or EXAMPLES? Did you even bother to read my post when I said:
So, basically it all comes down to what Zek says: Silence is NOT weak early game, however, MT renders silence worthless compared to adrenaline or celerity.
Tell me how this is flawed.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Silence ... maybe a name that isn't relevant when alien only have 1 or 2 chamber. So what? This doesn't worth a huge thread. ok let's call it "STEALTH"... happy now?
And if it's a problem of 'bad luck only one MC!' so gorge and do them.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, you still don't get it. The problem is while say adrenaline will give you a 33% energy boost and celerity gives you 33% speed boost at level 1, Having your sounds muffled, but still audible is USELESS. You might as well upgrade adrenaline or celerity as they give you a boost. The only way level 1 silence was to be helpful in anyway, is if there are other players in the game causing more sound in that area.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You talk about that as if MC strategy were static like sensory. This isn't the case; AT ALL. MC strategies are the most dinamic strategies of NS. Who said that there will be one skulk to bite RT? They can be 2 and be really devastating. Who said that you have to wait for a marins to come. Silent skulks move where the marins are, they listen (THIS IS THE POINT) to their noise, locate them, and ambush them were they are. And all in one package; plus they move undetected. If played well no marins comes out the base without heavy damage.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't see how you need silence to listen to footsteps. They move undetected... UNTIL MT, which is my argument.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You should play more NS and adapt your REASONING to the game itself. You don't play NS_ like CO_. You don't rush in front of them. You don't wait for marins to come. You make you team develop. On the alien side you have 3 choices. And you play differently each of them.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I previously have stated I'm talking about NS here, not combat. I don't understand what you are saying; my examples are from games of NS... what's your point? I understand that all 3 upgrades for the movement chamber have different purposes, but MT destroys one of them, while the other 2 aren't as effective. And that is why I believe it is wrong.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You don't have arguments. This idea is stupid. This is not balanced. One of the problem of NS is the balance. You don't realize that this idea is ruining it. As long as we can call it an idea. Think about all the possibilities before talking anout that; and not only to you personnal 'comfort'. Skill yourself!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I never had said that when structures are under attack, if aliens have silence the "under attack" should NOT play. My point was that even when attacking structures, celerity allows you to escape or dodge shots, and adrenaline allows quicker RT demolishing, while silence does not give any benefits. This concludes to the more restricted use of silence.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Exactly the same for sensory... You cannot ambush when MT is up. Unless you wait for a long time. But the time factor in NS is crucial. By the time MT is up PhaseGate is up too. Marins don't have to walk long lanes waiting for you to ambush. And you wait alone in you location... pathetic.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Have you played the game or read the manual? While you are cloaked, MT IS BLOCKED.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Still wrong. Actually Motion Tracking shows every movement that is hidden by wall or other things, let's call it obticles. Even in the sensory radius. Ns Motion tracking is a lot 'something behind the walls' is moving.
A ommander have the minimap. Thinking you ambush with cloaking. Motion tracking is T3H thing that give the tip to commander to locate you. And mostly when MT is up the commander don't have to tell anything with experienced players.
Plus when alien use sensory; commander systematicaly upgrade armor... When MT is up usually marins have armor level2 and alien still have one hive. Even if you bite one time the marins kills you, get his medpack and roll again. What the point of biting one time? It's about interception and killing a single one to neutralize the enemy team.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm afraid you haven't played enough 3.0F. If you are cloaked, it BLOCKS MT. Cloaking allows you to be in the most obvious spots, while silence requires you to be hidden and staying still, that's the difference. MT IS countered by cloaking. If you disagree with this, show me evidence, otherwise I'm going to go with what the 3.0 manual says.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Wrong again! You can travel a lot with silence. Just use a key like space. If done well the fade save a lot energy. I usually 'blink' through the entire map with half energy.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't understand your logic of how silence allows you to travel more than celerity. The reason I say it saves energy is because it takes less energy to travel the same distance with blink and celerity, than it does with silence and blink. If you can blink through the entire map with only 50% energy, imagine how much more energy you will save with celerity!
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->One hit one kill? Only at the begining. Usually marins get armor lvl1... then you die.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The last statement was from Necrosis, not me. I dudged up by putting the quote on the wrong people, it can happen when you have this many quotes.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Conclusion:
Everybody who answered was in glory of silence.
I think you are a freshmeat skulk and you are unable to adapt to different styles. Noobs begins by cloaking. Experienced player play it with silence. And they know why!
Zunny : apply the thread closer pls...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No the conclusion is you need to play 3.0F a bit more and use celerity a bit more. You say that silence allows you to travel more when it gives no movement buffs like celerity. Hell, you travel the same distance with or withOUT silence. Noobs begin by cloaking? I'm talking about NS here, not combat where you can get all 9 upgrades from the start. Experienced players also use celerity, please don't give me this random statistics from sources you pulled out of your butt. You wan't this thread closed? Why don't you report it to a mod... Or better yet, DON'T READ WHAT I WRITE! I have an opinion, and whether you like it or not, it stays. And for the record, Zunni mods threads in I&S. I'm discussing silence here, which I would have placed in beta discussion, but you know why I haven't. In fact, Nem0 had looked at this thread, and left it open, which means IT IS LEGIT. So stop whining with your "please close omg" crap.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->not entirely true. with 2 hives and leap, silence+leap skulks are very deadly, mt or not. as for early-game... true that silence is rendered pretty useless by mt, but does that really matter? it IS the strongest early-game upgrade available, by far. if the marines need a whole separate (and expensive) upgrade just to counter it isnt it pretty balanced? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If it's not entirely true, than it's not going to be false either. You defeat your statement with your phrase: true that silence is rendered pretty useless by mt. And yes it does matter when one upgrade is useless. If the devs had your logic, they would have left cloaking alone. You opinion on silence being the strongest upgrade is just that, your opinion. It does not make it a fact, and I would recommend saying WHY it is the best over the other 8, but that should be in another thread.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Silence does not need a buff. The advantage of silence is not to sneak up on marines its to run rings around them while biting. When aiming at close quarters your actually aiming by useing the sound to tell where they are. A marine spinning round with no clue where the skulk is is dead. This is why mc can be much more effective than cloaking and ofc it has no counter and is much more useful later on. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Guess what, you can run rings around marines... WITHOUT silence! Not only that, but celerity allows spinning... to go FASTER!
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Practical purposes, one would tend to assume, would be moving around the map, hitting marines from behind and chewing on their resource nodes. Bunnyhopping silently allows you to close two rooms worth of distance in around a second. Very few marines check behind them once every second. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You do realize celerity or adrenaline do a much better job at the tasks you stated once marines get MT? If silence allows you to close 2 rooms in a second, imagine how many rooms celerity can close. Not only that, but it wouldn't matter if you could close 2 rooms with silence, your speed is still the same regardless of having it or not. I agree with your statement that very few marines do check behind them... but even with that said, celerity allows a quick escape or possibly allow a kill to incoming marines, while adrenaline allows the RT to be finished quicker than celerity or silence.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->There are a lot of alien abilities that we would all agree could be made better in some way to counter something the marines have, but that is being too narrow minded.
The balance of the game seems to be tilted already in the aliens favor. So why do we want to talk about buffing alien abilities?
You can't talk about making silence better without mentioning how it is going to better balance the game. Right now, making silence better will only unbalance the game further. It is the marines turn to get a improvement. Besides, this should be in ideas and suggestions anyway. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I understand that the difficulty is placed more on marines this build, but you might as well use another thread for that. This thread is comparing silence to other upgrades and the effect MT has on it. Just wait for the game to sink in a bit, maybe new strategies will pop out, who knows. The build has only been out for a week, so give it a chance.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Nail. Head.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Spam. Er.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And teamwork brutalizes cloaking. Far more than it does silence.
Except teamwork is available without upgrades.
So really, it depends to some extent on the quality of the marine team you're up against<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't understand your logic here. Maybe if you were to give me an example of a situation I could be able to relate to it. Your statement that teamwork brutalizes cloaking is true, but isn't teamwork effective against any upgrade? I don't see how you use skill as an argument when it's a variable that nobody has control over.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So I've noticed that you like to make threads about things that are fine and work great, then say they're underpowered. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nice opinion, but I still stand on my argument that silence is completely useless when MT rolls along.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->From reading your first post, I’d have to agree with Tomekki - it seems that you've never used silence. I die a lot quicker to silence skulks rather than celerity skulks - I use sound, and pretty much sound alone, to track skulks through walls / rooms. When someone goes silent, I don’t know they're there until they're in my face biting - to make it even worse have them cloak and run around, then my primary way of tracking skulks is gone.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, so when I say that celerity and adrenaline are useful in many more situations than silence, it automatically makes my knowledge of silence flawed. The world must agree with you right Steve, or does that make them bad people? Why don't you read entire thread if you want to argue against me? If you are too lazy to do that, I recommend you just pretend this thread never existed... mmkay?
You say you use sound to track skulk through walls. So if skulks are not moving at all or walking, then what? It won't matter if they are silent when you have MT. The fact is that you will gain the knowledge of an aliens position which destroys the purpose of silence. I'm going to have to agree that sound is useful in detection, but MT does a much, much better job, than sound could ever do.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->To say that 3 MCs would grant people using silence the ability to chew up structures and not have the commander be notified is pure insanity and only shows how little experience you have using silence.
Once again, silence is fine.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I never suggested that silence removes commander notifications. My point was that as the commander is notified, celerity gives the alien a faster getaway, a chance to kill the pursuer, adrenaline allows the RT to be destroyed faster, while silence gives no benefits in this situation whatsoever. I'm only explaining how limited the usefulness of silence is when experiencing common situations in games.
And once again, MT destroys silence.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Your blindfold analogy is terrible. I didn't realize that the entire map went dark and your monitor turned off when they get cloaking. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your understanding of analogies is flawed. Analogies are never supposed to be taken literally, just like a simile or an anecdote. The purpose of that statement was that sight ultimately gives more advantage to the user than sound.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->this is definitely a good point to make. I for one don't have a this magical eye to see anything and everything on the map. This is due to poor eyesight coupled with a dark monitor and hella dark maps. I DO however have a VERY nice speaker system that allows me to quite accurately pinpoint the position of a sound in a map. The blurry image i actually see really only helps me out as a feedback mechanism assuring me that I did actually move my mouse to the right position intended. Needless to say, the Silence upgrade is absolutely enfuriating to me as it kills me almost every time as my visual accuity and response aren't up to par.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Are big light blue circles that hard to see? If silence has you beat down, don't worry, MT nullifies it completely.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Now I'm not so naive to think that anything more than a very small minority of our community are in the same predicament as I, but it does nevertheless attest to the effectiveness of different styles of play in the hands of those with a true affinity for that style of play as opposed to just any joe schmoe that picks up the upgrade.
As an example, i know people who will choose regen (even as a skulk) simply because it fits with their style of play better than carapace does and vice-versa. Those two upgrades may not have a direct analogy to the upgrades at hand (movement upgrades), but the principle still remains.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I understand their are those who prefer some upgrades over others. I just find that when there is an upgrade that makes an ability nerfed to a point of uselessness, somethings wrong. I mean if the game was meant to be like this, why not have something that shuts down regeneration, perhaps poison? Why not shut down focus with alien drugs? If the other 8 upgrades are useful no matter what is researched, I don't see why silence should be the only upgrade that can be nullified.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Who cares if there is an infallible counter to Silence, even very early on in the game. You are trying to analyze the upgrade out of the context of the game it is played with. In all likelihood there WILL be other upgrades available to you (if not now, then soon). In all likelihood there WILL be other players that can serve as distraction for you while you flank a position. In all likelihood there WILL be players that are disoriented by seeing things they cannot hear. All the testimony we've heard from you actually sends the message not to use Silence against YOU as you claim that someone given your skills would be helpless with it outside a select few anomalies of gameplay... though I beg to differ as I consider myself VERY deadly with the Silence upgrade in my pocket, and I don't consider myself all that great of a player. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Apparently, the devs do. If they followed your policy, cloaking would have probably never been upgraded to a useful level.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> As a case in point, assume that you are a skulk with silence and are traveling with two other skulks (assume not silenced) when you hear footsteps in the distance. Also assume that MT has been researched and the marine(s) essentially know where we are already. Being the above sludge intelligence human beings that my teammates are they know that there may be more than one person ahead and would therefore be more prudent to push the attack together rather than to split apart (or heaven forbid, run away). You figure that you can use this to your advantage by allowing them be the 'larger threat' on MT (psychology would tell you that most people would be more apt to follow the two targets rather than the one if nothing else is known about them). Thus you've just created an opportunity to flank regardless of the fact that the marines can "technically" know where you are at all times anyways. Since they aren't likely looking in your direction you'll still have the upper hand as they can't hear you either. When you do finally hit it causes confusion amongst a few and even if you do end up dying you've allowed your other teammates a higher chance of survival to close their distance and finish up the job you started. This case also works in the event that MT does NOT exist as the marines will still hear the other two coming and be unaware of your approach from the flank.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In this situation, it would work. But how many other situations are there?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It is all about intelligent deployment of tactics in real world (in-game?) situations, not the technical "lab room" arguments that require some level of controlled variables. If there's one thing you can be assured about outside of a laboratory, its that nothing is ever assured. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Isn't what you posted above a "lab room" situation?
Your blindfold analogy is terrible. I didn't realize that the entire map went dark and your monitor turned off when they get cloaking.
Your understanding of analogies is flawed. Analogies are never supposed to be taken literally, just like a simile or an anecdote. The purpose of that statement was that sight ultimately gives more advantage to the user than sound.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why use analogies at all? Stating what you're trying to say without comparing apples to oranges is pretty much the best thing you could do.
And for the record, you can spot cloakers, if you look hard enough, or use a totally FREE scan, baring the cost of an obs.. The obs seems to counter 2 upgrades, doesn't it? Or shall we say 3? SOF is matched by MT, so the advantage becomes null on both sides. Does this in turn make the DC overpowered because it's the only chamber not hurt too badly by the construction of an obs?
Silence allows you to travel, full normal speed, without making a sound. Walking allows you to travel significantly slower, still making the occasional "tick" from an unsteady hand, with bite noise and running sound in combat. Silence's advantage does NOT dissapear in combat, whereas cloaking's advantage does. It's got plenty good going for it, and forcing the rines to spend a large investment of res in a relitivly slow upgrade in the weakest structure in order to stand a chance vs you seems like a good deal to me. That res could go towards weapons 2 or something else that drastically lowers a lifeforms average lifespan in combat.
And for the record, you can spot cloakers, if you look hard enough, or use a totally FREE scan, baring the cost of an obs.. The obs seems to counter 2 upgrades, doesn't it? Or shall we say 3? SOF is matched by MT, so the advantage becomes null on both sides. Does this in turn make the DC overpowered because it's the only chamber not hurt too badly by the construction of an obs?
Silence allows you to travel, full normal speed, without making a sound. Walking allows you to travel significantly slower, still making the occasional "tick" from an unsteady hand, with bite noise and running sound in combat. Silence's advantage does NOT dissapear in combat, whereas cloaking's advantage does. It's got plenty good going for it, and forcing the rines to spend a large investment of res in a relitivly slow upgrade in the weakest structure in order to stand a chance vs you seems like a good deal to me. That res could go towards weapons 2 or something else that drastically lowers a lifeforms average lifespan in combat. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I used an analogy to prove that sight is ultimately more useful than sound. They are similar in that they both help the marine player detect an incoming alien, thats the medium.
You CAN'T spot cloakers when they stop moving, even when semi cloaked, they just need to hide and they are fully cloaked once again. Even when they are scanned, an alien just needs to go into another room and cloak once again. I'll disagree when you say SOF is matched by MT. MT IS countered by cloaking. SOF is not countered at all, cloaking is at most countered by lucky scans and focus is still effective, even with armor upgrades. In short, your logic that the obs counters 3 upgrades is not true, but the obs, or more specifically MT does counter silence.
I don't see how there is an advantage in using silence, when MT already knows where you are. And even in combat, I find celerity more useful as it closes the distance faster, allows you to dodge better, and allows for a better chance of escaping.
The fact is does weapons 2 completely render an upgrade worthless? You already have the upgrade only useful in ambushing situations, when celerity or adrenaline are useful in many more scenarios. Cloaking is even better at ambushing and even then, it does not get nullified by MT. Why don't you compare silence to celerity or adrenaline? After all, it's in the same chamber. I think 35 res is pretty cheap compared to placing countless observatories which each cost 20 res all over the map to see aliens on radar.
Anyone who can bunnyhop, wallstrafe, or wigglewalk is able to move a lot faster and in total silence. Personally I can use two of the above, and can outpace most other players when I need to.
I'm not really fussed about what server you play on, merely telling you that an awful lot of player rely on their ears to tell them "HEY MAN AN ALIEN IS COMING", and that with silence AND bhop/wallstrafe/wiggle you can be in their face before they've properly seen you.
On a continuation, celerity is great for flying around the map. However, you can't dispute the strength of Silence for the almighty ambush. Celerity might make me move faster, adren might let me swipe like a noob, but with silence I can blink in quietly, make a kill, and blink out. Whats more, the marines have very little clue as to where I came from and where I went. Again, its the principle of speed and silence. If you're clever enough to flank or rear attack the marines, then silence will allow you to make a clean attack and then leave. It gets better with Focus, because you can kill things very easily and at high speed.
I don't dispute that celer is better for a frontal attack, but I'm a sneaky little fellow and I've enjoyed some success with Silence. I only ever need to blink two corridors away to avoid rines, and even then its a quick hop to the nearest hive for a cooldown. Its a stealth play, which works pretty well.
Focus attacks "generally" killing things in one hit are very VERY relevant. You're talking about a stealth attacker who can kill in one hit, maybe two. Second, even if you dont outright KILL your opponent, you have softened him up for every other lifeform. Some marines will even stop to weld, which is great when you need to buy some time. If you're really lucky the team will split up, some chasing you, the others going to their WP. Its not all about making kills.
YOU NEED TO COMPARE IT WITH OTHER CHAMBERS because the combination is how it all works out. Silence is a fantastic upgrade when combined with others. Its the same way celerity is great with cara or regen. If you insist on the narrow view of JUST MC ups, then consider that celerity isnt much use in a smack match because you'll get blocked, and adren is great only if you're spamming attacks with no control.
Skulks with adren are good at hitting buildings, little else. A celerity skulk will fly round the map til it collides with marines, where its high speed isn't going to make it live any longer.
You state that MARINES WILL KNOW THAT SOMETHING IS COMING!!!... well, WHOOP DE DOO, funnily enough marines will always know something is coming... as long as theres at least one orange name on the scoreboard, the rines can be assured SOMETHING is coming.
If I am silent and coming round a corner at full tilt, few marines are going to be able to train a weapon on me to avoid one bite. If I attack from an angle they're not aiming at then I can expect to get 2 bites in. If he has MT its a different story, but the MT sprite lags a little and at high speed you can radically alter your trajectory so the marine is aiming elsewhere.
Further, if they're not looking directly at you then you should be easily set up for a two bite run because they wont hear anything behind them.. and by the time the minimap shows a dot you'll pretty much be on them.
MT does not nullify silence. Its good against silence, but it wont nullify it if you're moving fast enough.
I WILL use player skill as a variable, because thats what the dev team had to do. I WILL use other chambers as a variable, because again thats what the dev team had to do.
Silence NEEDS a certain skill level in order to work. Its like Focus in that respect. Focus is great but you need to learn how to control your attacks in order to benefit. Silence needs a player who knows how to ambush, knows how to move fast, and knows how to control his attacks. Upgrades are about capitalising on strengths or removing weaknesses. If you can move fast with bhop, and you don't bite like crazy, then Silence is a great way to get a little boost. All the better when second hive arrives and you get more upgrades.
Even at endgame I can use silence because marines have more pressing concerns and dont have time to listen for someone biting the Obs.
Silence means a marine needs to be looking at you direction in order to zero you. You will hear only the marines, so if they all stop dead then you can guess that you've been made. If you're hitting from the side or rear (which is 1/2 the time) then you can be on them before they've thought "hey maybe we should cover the rear".
In the big rush of combat, marines will not be looking for blips, they will be listening for biting sounds. If your silence wolfpack manages to sneak attack marines from the rear, you can carve them up before they're aware of the fact.
Silence only really loses out with the Lerk and Onos. Both are a waste of a good upgrade. Skulks, Fades, and gorges can always benefit from silence (if SC are down then silenced gorges can become evil masters of sudden lame).
<!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Will the marine see the skulk on MT? No. Will the marine know he is coming? No. Does he have a massive element of suprise? Yes.
The skulk is coming from behind the marine, and since the marine doesn't have eyes in the back of his head, he's screwed.
<!--c1--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>CODE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='CODE'><!--ec1-->
|
| <skulk>
|
______ |
<marine>
___________________________________<!--c2--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--ec2-->
Does the marine see the skulk on MT? No. Does the marine know the skulk is coming? No. Will the marine hear the skulk? No. Will the skulk win this encounter? Definately.
The skulk isn't moving, thus, MT is useless. By the time it becomes effective, the skulk is behind the marine and the marine is oblivious to his untimely doom.
This is two scenarios off the top of my head where silence is effective. I could begin to name more... Oh and BTW, motion tracking isn't perfect, it comes in blips, and if a skulk is moving rather quickly (as in, LEAP), he'll move too fast for the marine to know he's coming by watching MT. By the time the marine sees the blue blip, the skulk is in his face.
But I'm interested to see what your counter points are...
It seems to me you are stating the obvious. I understand the benefits of silence early game, but later on, MT renders it useless. Why don't you admit it instead of diverting the statement with facts I already know?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm not really fussed about what server you play on, merely telling you that an awful lot of player rely on their ears to tell them "HEY MAN AN ALIEN IS COMING", and that with silence AND bhop/wallstrafe/wiggle you can be in their face before they've properly seen you.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As I said previously, I know. But the fact is, with those techniques you said will make you fast, but when combined with celerity, it becomes even more effective.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->On a continuation, celerity is great for flying around the map. However, you can't dispute the strength of Silence for the almighty ambush. Celerity might make me move faster, adren might let me swipe like a noob, but with silence I can blink in quietly, make a kill, and blink out. Whats more, the marines have very little clue as to where I came from and where I went. Again, its the principle of speed and silence. If you're clever enough to flank or rear attack the marines, then silence will allow you to make a clean attack and then leave. It gets better with Focus, because you can kill things very easily and at high speed.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You don't seem to realize the power of speed. With speed, you are able to get to the marines faster, escape faster, and scout the map better. Admitted, silence is effective in ambushes... but that's it. I'd trade ambushes that are useful in limited situations for speed which is useful in many more scenarios. Again, stop using the fade primarily and try to think of the other forms as well. Sure a fade is still fast without celerity, but to a gorge, or skulk, speed can be the difference between another bite or death. Your reasoning seems to ignore the fact that marines WILL have a clue once they have MT. MT, MT, MT, it exists. You won't have both speed and silence, since you will go JUST as fast without silence.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I don't dispute that celer is better for a frontal attack, but I'm a sneaky little fellow and I've enjoyed some success with Silence. I only ever need to blink two corridors away to avoid rines, and even then its a quick hop to the nearest hive for a cooldown. Its a stealth play, which works pretty well.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again, celerity is not just useful for full on attacks. It can also be useful for scouting areas where marines might try to expand or escaping a pursuing marine. It's not just about fades. Please consider the other 4 lifeforms as well.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Focus attacks "generally" killing things in one hit are very VERY relevant. You're talking about a stealth attacker who can kill in one hit, maybe two. Second, even if you dont outright KILL your opponent, you have softened him up for every other lifeform. Some marines will even stop to weld, which is great when you need to buy some time. If you're really lucky the team will split up, some chasing you, the others going to their WP. Its not all about making kills.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not arguing focus is weak. It's about silence. Anything you can do with silence as a fade, you can do much more better with celerity. If you heard of this thing called MT, it kills the only advantage of silence, hidden positioning of aliens.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->YOU NEED TO COMPARE IT WITH OTHER CHAMBERS because the combination is how it all works out. Silence is a fantastic upgrade when combined with others. Its the same way celerity is great with cara or regen. If you insist on the narrow view of JUST MC ups, then consider that celerity isnt much use in a smack match because you'll get blocked, and adren is great only if you're spamming attacks with no control.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again, if you look at silence by itself, it's a decent upgrade, in the start of the game. If silence does great combined with other upgrades, celerity does it much, much better. Speed can be used defensively, offensively, or as a recon, while silence is limited to ambushes, which is only really effective for the skulk.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Skulks with adren are good at hitting buildings, little else. A celerity skulk will fly round the map til it collides with marines, where its high speed isn't going to make it live any longer.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again, look at the upgrades from a broad point of view. While skulks with adrenaline aren't as viable, lerks are very effective with adrenaline as their attacks use lots of energy.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You state that MARINES WILL KNOW THAT SOMETHING IS COMING!!!... well, WHOOP DE DOO, funnily enough marines will always know something is coming... as long as theres at least one orange name on the scoreboard, the rines can be assured SOMETHING is coming.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is a major difference in knowing an alien is generally in a room by sound versus a blue circle that is pinpointed to the exact location of an alien. Yes, I'm talking about MT.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If I am silent and coming round a corner at full tilt, few marines are going to be able to train a weapon on me to avoid one bite. If I attack from an angle they're not aiming at then I can expect to get 2 bites in. If he has MT its a different story, but the MT sprite lags a little and at high speed you can radically alter your trajectory so the marine is aiming elsewhere.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I never said silence is weak early game. In fact, I said silence is one of the best upgrades early game. However, MT destroys its only true advantage in ambushing. I won't bother with your MT sprite lagging theory, as MT is very effective in my point of view. If your argument would be true, then there would be no point in upgrading MT.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Further, if they're not looking directly at you then you should be easily set up for a two bite run because they wont hear anything behind them.. and by the time the minimap shows a dot you'll pretty much be on them.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Once again, you don't need silence to do ambushes.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->MT does not nullify silence. Its good against silence, but it wont nullify it if you're moving fast enough.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I disagree with you. Silence is only useful for ambushes with MT, but even then, you can still ambush WITHOUT silence. You can't dodge MT with speed. Even if you have celerity, MT will track you down. Think of the police.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I WILL use player skill as a variable, because thats what the dev team had to do. I WILL use other chambers as a variable, because again thats what the dev team had to do.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You don't seem to understand. It's not that the devs chose not to change player skill, it's that THEY CAN'T. There will be good and bad players in any game. Even if I didn't argue that silence + upgrade x is weak, go ahead. In nearly all cases, celerity + x is definitely better, especially when MT is used.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Silence NEEDS a certain skill level in order to work. Its like Focus in that respect. Focus is great but you need to learn how to control your attacks in order to benefit. Silence needs a player who knows how to ambush, knows how to move fast, and knows how to control his attacks. Upgrades are about capitalising on strengths or removing weaknesses. If you can move fast with bhop, and you don't bite like crazy, then Silence is a great way to get a little boost. All the better when second hive arrives and you get more upgrades.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Silence is effective early game, I understand that. MT renders it useless, however. This may be the 10th time I've said that. Moving fast and controlling attacks is also applied without silence and to celerity, so I don't see it as an argument. If you think bhop and bite is great, celerity bhop and bite works much faster and better.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Even at endgame I can use silence because marines have more pressing concerns and dont have time to listen for someone biting the Obs.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You do realize it plays the "YOU BASE IN UNDER ATTACK!" sound right?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Silence means a marine needs to be looking at you direction in order to zero you. You will hear only the marines, so if they all stop dead then you can guess that you've been made. If you're hitting from the side or rear (which is 1/2 the time) then you can be on them before they've thought "hey maybe we should cover the rear".<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exactly my point. Not only does the marine have to wander into the room you are in for the upgrade to be effective, but he also has to be facing a certain direction as well. Celerity and adrenaline however, are useful in many more situations than this.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In the big rush of combat, marines will not be looking for blips, they will be listening for biting sounds. If your silence wolfpack manages to sneak attack marines from the rear, you can carve them up before they're aware of the fact.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You will never even see blips when you are in the same room as the enemy. It's admittedly more useful to seeing your foe versus hearing them.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Silence only really loses out with the Lerk and Onos. Both are a waste of a good upgrade. Skulks, Fades, and gorges can always benefit from silence (if SC are down then silenced gorges can become evil masters of sudden lame). <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So you are admitting silence is less useful than celerity. By saying if SC are down, than you are probably implying that cloak would be useful to gorges since it negates MT right? Why would you need silence in that case, since cloaking allows you to conceal your location?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Here, let's make this simple
Will the marine see the skulk on MT? No. Will the marine know he is coming? No. Does he have a massive element of suprise? Yes.
The skulk is coming from behind the marine, and since the marine doesn't have eyes in the back of his head, he's screwed.
CODE
|
| <skulk>
|
______ |
<marine>
___________________________________
Does the marine see the skulk on MT? No. Does the marine know the skulk is coming? No. Will the marine hear the skulk? No. Will the skulk win this encounter? Definately.
The skulk isn't moving, thus, MT is useless. By the time it becomes effective, the skulk is behind the marine and the marine is oblivious to his untimely doom.
This is two scenarios off the top of my head where silence is effective. I could begin to name more... Oh and BTW, motion tracking isn't perfect, it comes in blips, and if a skulk is moving rather quickly (as in, LEAP), he'll move too fast for the marine to know he's coming by watching MT. By the time the marine sees the blue blip, the skulk is in his face.
But I'm interested to see what your counter points are...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And what about:
|
| <skulk>
|
|
<marine> <marine>
___________________________________
or:
|
| <skulk>
|
|
<marine, looks up>
___________________________________
Your example only demonstrates ramboing, which is already nerfed by other upgrades. Not to mention the fact that regardless of silence, you can still ambush marines. In fact celerity, can be more useful since you can get the bite on the marine faster. Not only that, but later on, phase gates reduce walking, which in turn reduce ambushes. In addition to that, what if the marine saw you crawling above that wall before he walked into the room?
It doesn't matter if the skulk leaps. When the skulk lands however, it's location will be known. For the situations you name where silence is worthy with MT, celerity can do the job faster, and has more situations where it is useful.
I'm really tired of repeating the same argument I've said. Regardless of what anyone says, silence will only be useful in ambushes when the marine does NOT know where or even if you are coming, which is primarily early game. Celerity and adrenaline is useful in many more situations, more than just ambushing. Even if silence helps ambush, you can still ambush without silence. MT strips the ambushing element period, unless you have some lab controlled situation such as one where only one marine walks by himself, and if the marine does not noticed a blue blip above the doorway he is going to enter. When ambushing is weakened, so is the purpose of silence. I rest my case.
So make sure to have 3 of them. do it yourself (haha <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> ) if necessary. Like senso strategy which need 3 senso up at the very begining. This is how NS works : 3 chambers to get upgrade at full potential. Period.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I don't see how you need silence to listen to footsteps. They move undetected... UNTIL MT, which is my argument.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They listen because they don't have and need to "see" the marins... if they are undetected the just have to listen to know where the enemy unit is. Sometimes wait for him/them, sometimes attack. It depends on location in the map.
MT??? .... ok NS curse unit 1, lesson 1
observatory take 15sec to be built. 1m40 (~45) seconds for MT to be UP.
Considering they build obs first... but usually that's not the case.
Usually observatory comes after 1 minute on public servers, maybee more. This let aliens control the map during almost 3 minutes. Large enough to get ready to build a hive and handle the situation. Fades are coming, second hive too.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I previously have stated I'm talking about NS here, not combat. I don't understand what you are saying; my examples are from games of NS... what's your point? I understand that all 3 upgrades for the movement chamber have different purposes, but MT destroys one of them, while the other 2 aren't as effective. And that is why I believe it is wrong.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again... same for sensory.
MC is far more useful than senso when things go bad for aliens. Even if the stealth capabilities are almost gone, but not entirely. It depends on player and how they use MT. héhé MT doesn't do the job alone; marins have to look in all directions.
So even with MT , they still have adrenaline for eating fast, and celerity for running fast. This is one of the most balanced chamber and powerfull chamber. But a lot of player; mostly pub players arn't aware of this power. Power related to teamwork
And MC can teleport to main hive or attacked hive.
With senso you just still have focus, but the trick is gone as you cannot hide anymore (if well played). It makes the game turning back to the first minutes. Weak skulk VS marins who shoot from far... far away...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I never had said that when structures are under attack, if aliens have silence the "under attack" should NOT play. My point was that even when attacking structures, celerity allows you to escape or dodge shots, and adrenaline allows quicker RT demolishing, while silence does not give any benefits. This concludes to the more restricted use of silence.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is a bug in NS that makes sound alerts are not played when multiple sound are triggered. The sounds are not mixed together. The last sound triggered take the sound channels. That mean if there is 2 alerts almost tirgered at the same time, only one will be played / heard. This an issue of the HL engine. So commander don't wait for Alerts... they check each RT. That's why you idea is stupid. You don't know the CC, play more NS.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm afraid you haven't played enough 3.0F. If you are cloaked, it BLOCKS MT. Cloaking allows you to be in the most obvious spots, while silence requires you to be hidden and staying still, that's the difference. MT IS countered by cloaking. If you disagree with this, show me evidence, otherwise I'm going to go with what the 3.0 manual says.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Manual says: [...]Kharaa can counter this effect by standing still, or staying close to sensory chambers.
Means that you counter MT only in senso effective radius. So not on all the map. There is a fact. It is really hard to cover all the map with sensory chambers before 6 minutes. Enough time to get spanked by marins if senso are badly located.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I don't understand your logic of how silence allows you to travel more than celerity. The reason I say it saves energy is because it takes less energy to travel the same distance with blink and celerity, than it does with silence and blink. If you can blink through the entire map with only 50% energy, imagine how much more energy you will save with celerity!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fade = blink... use the force luke.
-I Don't need half of energy to kill a marins (it's the point after all).
-I don't need celerity to get close to a marins.
-Celerity is not really useful because map are not made with straight lanes. There are bunch of obsticles, turns, ladders that makes celerity not really useful exept landing his face on the wall more quickly.
And why travel more than the top left to the bottom right??? if you can do it with silence you'll see that it is far more effective than celerity... because when marins realize you're here , it too late...
And why saving 'a lot more energy' if i don't need it? What is the point. I blink, i kill the guy, i re-blink seeking some fresh meat... Considering that traveling all around the map make you go to (at least) one hive from time to time or close to a MC (in a vent for example). So why should i save?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->No the conclusion is you need to play 3.0F a bit more and use celerity a bit more.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I use it since 1.04... always got back to silence.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You say that silence allows you to travel more when it gives no movement buffs like celerity. Hell, you travel the same distance with or withOUT silence.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Learn Bunny Hopping and you'll see. Learn to blink effectively and you'll see.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Noobs begin by cloaking? I'm talking about NS here, not combat where you can get all 9 upgrades from the start. Experienced players also use celerity, please don't give me this random statistics from sources you pulled out of your butt.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
All the vets i know who got in the top CB ladder (once upon a time <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> ) like some RaB, D/y, have said at least one time that silence rox. I'm pretty sure some vets over here would agree (i don't know if they answered here). If they are my butt... darn my butt looks gooood <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
And i can show you i you like even if i get 300ping; gimme server ip.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You wan't this thread closed? Why don't you report it to a mod... Or better yet, DON'T READ WHAT I WRITE! I have an opinion, and whether you like it or not, it stays. And for the record, Zunni mods threads in I&S. I'm discussing silence here, which I would have placed in beta discussion, but you know why I haven't. In fact, Nem0 had looked at this thread, and left it open, which means IT IS LEGIT. So stop whining with your "please close omg" crap.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Right back at you. Stop whining 'silence' is not enough good. Learn to play it. I mean pratice it seriously... At least one month. only silence. even if MC is in second hive. Use only silence. you'll see. Don't sensory got 'buffed' and now it's over powered. I think next version will remove some senso attribute.
My point was that even at levels 1 or 2, silence is useless, while all other upgrades give a boost, a minor one, but still a boost. Thanks for telling me something I've known since 1.04.
And there are strategies that involve dropping one chamber in key locations.
[QUOTE]They listen because they don't have and need to "see" the marins... if they are undetected the just have to listen to know where the enemy unit is. Sometimes wait for him/them, sometimes attack. It depends on location in the map.[/quote]
I said this regardless if you have silence or not you won't hear marines better or worse; it's the same. When I said undetected, I meant aliens go undetected, until MT is up, not marines.
[QUOTE]MT??? .... ok NS curse unit 1, lesson 1
observatory take 15sec to be built. 1m40 (~45) seconds for MT to be UP.
Considering they build obs first... but usually that's not the case.
Usually observatory comes after 1 minute on public servers, maybee more. This let aliens control the map during almost 3 minutes. Large enough to get ready to build a hive and handle the situation. Fades are coming, second hive too.[/quote]
Exactly my point. That's around 2min where silence is effective, but the rest of the game, silence is pointless compared to celerity or adrenaline. The rest of your statement applies to games without movement first.
[QUOTE]Again... same for sensory.
MC is far more useful than senso when things go bad for aliens. Even if the stealth capabilities are almost gone, but not entirely. It depends on player and how they use MT. héhé MT doesn't do the job alone; marins have to look in all directions.
So even with MT , they still have adrenaline for eating fast, and celerity for running fast. This is one of the most balanced chamber and powerfull chamber. But a lot of player; mostly pub players arn't aware of this power. Power related to teamwork
And MC can teleport to main hive or attacked hive.
With senso you just still have focus, but the trick is gone as you cannot hide anymore (if well played). It makes the game turning back to the first minutes. Weak skulk VS marins who shoot from far... far away...[/quote]
I'm not comparing the chamber effects, nor am I saying that one chamber is better than another. I never said MCs are weak, in fact I like using them. I am discussing silence, the upgrade, nothing more, nothing less.
[QUOTE]There is a bug in NS that makes sound alerts are not played when multiple sound are triggered. The sounds are not mixed together. The last sound triggered take the sound channels. That mean if there is 2 alerts almost tirgered at the same time, only one will be played / heard. This an issue of the HL engine. So commander don't wait for Alerts... they check each RT. That's why you idea is stupid. You don't know the CC, play more NS.[/quote]
My idea is stupid because of a bug? My purpose in using the fact that RTs show sound is that when it does happen, adrenaline and celerity is still useful, while silence is... not useful at all in this situation. I doubt there would be many games where you have 2 skulks start chomping on RTs at the same exact time, and even if you do, you can save/recap it.
[QUOTE]Manual says: [...]Kharaa can counter this effect by standing still, or staying close to sensory chambers.
Means that you counter MT only in senso effective radius. So not on all the map. There is a fact. It is really hard to cover all the map with sensory chambers before 6 minutes. Enough time to get spanked by marins if senso are badly located[/quote]
But the source you just used says you can counter by standing still... which means without a sensory chamber since it says OR without sensory chambers. But the argument isn't whether cloak does or does not effective counter MT. It's that MT destroys silence.
[QUOTE]Fade = blink... use the force luke.
-I Don't need half of energy to kill a marins (it's the point after all).
-I don't need celerity to get close to a marins.
-Celerity is not really useful because map are not made with straight lanes. There are bunch of obsticles, turns, ladders that makes celerity not really useful exept landing his face on the wall more quickly.
And why travel more than the top left to the bottom right??? if you can do it with silence you'll see that it is far more effective than celerity... because when marins realize you're here , it too late...
And why saving 'a lot more energy' if i don't need it? What is the point. I blink, i kill the guy, i re-blink seeking some fresh meat... Considering that traveling all around the map make you go to (at least) one hive from time to time or close to a MC (in a vent for example). So why should i save?[/quote]
I understand you may not use a full energy bar in battles, but you may be short on energy when metabolizing or taking down res towers. Even if some maps are twisty, you still would be slower to traverse through all that, if you didn't get celerity.
[QUOTE]Learn Bunny Hopping and you'll see. Learn to blink effectively and you'll see.[/quote]
I don't need to learn bhop. Everyone knows all silence does is muffle sound. It does not make you faster meaning you will travel at the same speed before you upgraded silence.
[QUOTE]All the vets i know who got in the top CB ladder (once upon a time ) like some RaB, D/y, have said at least one time that silence rox. I'm pretty sure some vets over here would agree (i don't know if they answered here). If they are my butt... darn my butt looks gooood
And i can show you i you like even if i get 300ping; gimme server ip.[quote]
Uh... so if vets say something, it's law right? Especially since it's before beta3F. And it is proven law that my butt's more sexier than your butt. =/
[QUOTE]Right back at you. Stop whining 'silence' is not enough good. Learn to play it. I mean pratice it seriously... At least one month. only silence. even if MC is in second hive. Use only silence. you'll see. Don't sensory got 'buffed' and now it's over powered. I think next version will remove some senso attribute.[/quote]
Whining is different from discussing. Whining is asking mods to lock threads, when the mods themselves have already read it and left it open. Discussing allows people to share their views on a matter comparing and contrasting. Discussions are not where people automatically agree. You have to be flexible and think of the postitive and negative effects of multiple ideas. Regardless of what you say, I still believe celerity is better than silence, due to it's multi-usefulness.
I do however, admire your determination.
EDIT: my quotes are... fuzzed up.
Silence:
Bad: When not fully maxed, the semi-alert player will still detect the danger of an enemy near by. Even when fully maxed, you still are slow with a loss of energy, which makes it more of a one time use, which isnt usefull unless you plan to xenocide or forward area build only. A single semi-alert player has more of a chance to kill a silenced skulk as the skulk is lack of mobility needed to dodge a steam of bullets or anything else for that matter. All high-end items(and shotguns) tend to negate silence due to the powerfull nature of MT, or the Upgraded Shotgun. Jetpacks also increase the chance of an encounter in vents.
Good: When fully maxed, the user can sneak about the map utilizing vents located around all NS maps. Silence is very beneficial for avoiding vanilla marines, as they have no way of detecting or encountering a skulk if it stays in the vents. It also tends to surprise players in the fashion of Doom3 or spook'em movies. As sometimes, you arent really expecting something to jump from a corner. It basically allows the user to avoid semi-upgraded marines, and lets players get behind marines. It works best with fades because of the high-mobility of blink.
End Result: Silence is an early upgrade that gives skulks a chance to surprise players that have moderate skill, and players with lack of team work. Its more suited torward pubs where skill varies.
Celerity:
Bad: Lack of energy can still wind the upper classes if they are participating in a heavy attack. The increase of speed doesent totally eliminate sound. The extra-speed can make agility in tight spaces alittle hard when precision is required (Strafing through a bunch of marines has a tendancy to confuse most players, except for the elite.) Celerity is usually used more as a more straight forward method for attacking, rather the alien style of ambush usually due the the fact that it doesent increase your traveling speed in air when doing a duck drop (Duck key to detach from ceiling.)
Good: The extra speed, like silence, can surprise some players, but it also grants the ability to reach the enemy sooner. A bhopping skulk/Fade can propel him self down a hallway fast enough to give the marines a harder time judging the distance of the alien due to the velocities one could reach. There are no real downsides to celerity in early, or late game. It is the ulitimate tool for assaulting players or even minor squads. There are no really counters to celerity other than MT, since that is just an all round counter to aliens in general. Except for heavily fortified bases, which can require mass ammount of energy in order to demolish in a set timeframe. This skill benefiets all classes but the gorge, since reaching the enemy in the least ammount of time is what melee is all about in NS.
End Result: Reaching the enemy faster can increase your chances of living depending on your enemys reaction time, and weapons. It has no major weaknesses other than being obsolete for base assault. (Fade can still use it for hit and runs on bases, but regen still has a similar effect.) Celerity can be used in conjunction with cloak, even though the benefiet wouldnt be that big.
Over All?
Celerity
Compatibility, Surperior mobility is a better counter in any action game because reflex is the one thing that can make or break a good gamer. Silence is more tactical, marines would benefeit it more to have silence so they can set up PGs in or near alien bases. If aliens had a way of high mobility without celerity, (Say it get around the map.) then silence would be more use. Celerity gets you that much closer to a turret, that much closer to catching those marines in your hive, that much closer to that one last bite you need. Silence lags you with the only ability of ambush or small tactical use.
Suggestions?
Silence just needs to do something other than prevent sound. Yes, sound is a big part of any game, but gamers invest in improving their accuracy, because all games revolve around it. And blind people don't play video games... Which if they did, then yeah, silence is an excellent choice.
Only thing I can think of? Shrink or Remove mass from the model when the upgrade of silence is chosen. Lack of mobility makes you a target, lack of mass makes you a harder target to hit. Mix smaller mass and no sound, gives the player a closer chance to benefiet as much as a player with celerity would.