I'd hate to see free upgrades go for example. I'd rather see marine game play opened up some more (atm you have two choices, and you need to chose which route to go right at the time for dropping the first buildings).
ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
See, it's less of a buff to marines I'd like to see, as it'd be more of a "de-nerf" to counter what final did to the marine side. Bringing back seige damage (but cut out the random part of it) would be nice. Increasing seige damage so one gorge with MC can't outheal like 3 seiges would be nice. I think a general decrease in alien res flow would be superb, seeing as how aliens reach midgame way, way too quickly. This can either be accomplished by removing r4k for aliens, or lower their starting res (I think lerks come way too quickly). By lowering starting res, RTs come a bit later, and overall aliens would need more res to become a higher lifeform such as lerk/fade. Reduction to 20 starting res would be awesome.
GrendelAll that is fear...Join Date: 2002-07-19Member: 970Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, NS2 Playtester
<!--QuoteBegin-Church+Apr 15 2005, 11:58 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Church @ Apr 15 2005, 11:58 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> See, it's less of a buff to marines I'd like to see, as it'd be more of a "de-nerf" to counter what final did to the marine side. Bringing back seige damage (but cut out the random part of it) would be nice. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> ASC damage was removed precisely because the limitations of the HL engine make it very difficult to implement. Besides which, spawning and dying isn't any fun. Better to up the structure damage (but still make adrenaline a useful counter) than to add player damage.
I just want to say that I would rather see nerfing than buffing TBH. (I am talking about things like weapon damage/armor) If you keep buffing the marines or aliens the games don't last as long because one team ends up rushing and overpowering the other too quickly. It should feel like a struggle to win no matter which side you are playing.
So IMHO, a little nerf to aliens will in effect buff the marines and put the game one step closer to ballance.
<!--QuoteBegin-EmpV+Apr 15 2005, 07:31 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (EmpV @ Apr 15 2005, 07:31 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If you keep buffing the marines or aliens the games don't last as long because one team ends up rushing and overpowering the other too quickly <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Buff marines ftw.
Alien's gameplay is perfect as it is in my opinion (people are still taking other chambers than DC's in scrims, wow), so to fix the "little" balance problem we have atm I'd rather see marines buffed.
+5 starting armor (would open up other tech paths) Bin handgrenades, get an option that spawns every marine with welders Get rid of screenshake as your weapon level increases for lmg/pistol
All good ideas.
I was going to add "Make MT more viable", but if you overdo it then you'll have every marine, his comm, dog, and family going MT first.
How are DCs not a viable first chamber, anyway? I think the chambers _in relation to each other_ are pretty balanced now. In relation to the marines it's a different story, of course. Cara and regen are still cara and regen.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I just want to say that I would rather see nerfing than buffing TBH. (I am talking about things like weapon damage/armor) If you keep buffing the marines or aliens the games don't last as long because one team ends up rushing and overpowering the other too quickly. It should feel like a struggle to win no matter which side you are playing. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is definitely true.
I voted for buff the marines, but I'd like to bring up that the innate regen ability for aliens has had an extremely strong impact on the alien game: it takes an extra bullet to kill skulks. That's actually kind of big. Maybe it'd be better to make that innate regen only start working within a 1- or 2- second window after taking any amount of damage?
I wouldnt "buff" the marines per say, but I would undo some of the constraints that have been put on them.
They have fewer options because they are constrained to an upgrade path determined by cost & time. I would lower research time for marine abilities that include: Grenades (also grenade timing for throwing) & electricity. I would make catpacks a researchable upgrade, then drop them for 1 res each (this can be comparable to primal scream). I think the added benefits of the abilities that the marines have, but never use, will allow them that balanced edge in the game.
<!--QuoteBegin-digz+Apr 15 2005, 06:55 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (digz @ Apr 15 2005, 06:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I wouldnt "buff" the marines per say, but I would undo some of the constraints that have been put on them.
They have fewer options because they are constrained to an upgrade path determined by cost & time. I would lower research time for marine abilities that include: Grenades (also grenade timing for throwing) & electricity. I would make catpacks a researchable upgrade, then drop them for 1 res each (this can be comparable to primal scream). I think the added benefits of the abilities that the marines have, but never use, will allow them that balanced edge in the game. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> great idea...
this would not only possibly balance the game, but it would promote things in the game that are now fairly never used
Perhaps another path the marines could take would be an advanced armory path. Currently you can do this, but the cost of HMGs and GLs is still high and they aren't as effective without the upgrades. But what has been mentioned before (somewhere around here) is that the cost of shotguns would be reduced to 5 resources when the armory was upgraded. This could possible be used to boost the marines midgame, but then again if the aliens never get that second hive it could also seal their fate rather quickly.
Another idea (although I just had it so it might not be a very good one) would be to make catpacks only researchable from an advanced armory for either 20 or 30 res, whatever, and then reduce the cost of dropping them to 1. Currently catpacks are very underused and this is mostly due to the fact that A) They are very expensive to drop, B) Their expense isn't worth the res that they take away from A1, PGs, MT, etc, and C) Usually the commander doesn't have the extra res to drop catpacks when they are needed, usually during an offensive attack on a hive, which already bleeds you dry of any res you might have. A cheaper catpack could possibly be an effective way to boost the marines mid-game and add a new element to marine gameplay and commanding, but who knows until it is tested.
Also, is it possible to modfy it so that catpacks cost 3 when the armory isn't upgraded, and 1 when it is? This is just another part of this idea that I had that I didn't think would be able to pan out.
Could you make it so that each side has several different viable strategies rather than there always being a standard first/second chamber. It's been too repetitive for too long now. Every patch that comes out just never seems to do anything :/
Marines have 2 choices from the proto lab. Imo there's just not enough content in ns. There's always one or two strats that become the only method of playing which makes everything boring.
You need to add stuff. Simply making the early game a bit less alien biased is not going to serve the community in the long run.
ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
<!--QuoteBegin-GoDlol+Apr 15 2005, 12:17 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (GoDlol @ Apr 15 2005, 12:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> All the marines need imo, is a tiny buff, maybe churches armor change would work out nice. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> woot ^_^ Leader of Omega champions agrees with me.
<!--QuoteBegin-gham+Apr 15 2005, 03:20 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (gham @ Apr 15 2005, 03:20 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Could you make it so that each side has several different viable strategies rather than there always being a standard first/second chamber. It's been too repetitive for too long now. Every patch that comes out just never seems to do anything :/ <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Aliens have multiple choices. If you look at the Delta and Omega tournament finals, you'll see that all 3 chambers were used first.
TheAdjHe demanded a cool forum title of some type.Join Date: 2004-05-03Member: 28436Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
Balance with buffs, not nerfs. Make grenades and catpacks NOT suck, make electricity viable at competitive level or get rid of it and put in something more useful. Lowering the arms lab and obs cost was something that was already needed, and work on the proto OR the adv armory is needed to help out the marine midgame.
...or make more shots register (come on tanke, I know you can fix it!!)
In my opinion, one change would go a long way towards fixing marine balance. As someone (I'm too lazy to look) said earlier alien midgame comes very quickly. If the advanced armory research time was sped up significantly (like, cut in half), marines could quickly compensate for fades lerks or leapy skulks. This would also mean that marines would get jetpack/heavies sooner. I don't think that would be particularly unbalancing since those things are hardly used in competetive play anyway. If it was, the prototype lab research times could just be extended to compensate.
To address another issue derogatorily, people who think that these balance issues were created by 3.0 final are idiots. DCs and MCs, for all intents and purposes, haven't been changed since 2.0. The inherant regen is basically pointless. SCs - in particular cloaking - has been balanced out, but I still don't see it being used <b>more</b> than other chambers, and plus there were great SC strats used before 3.0 final. The competitive community has a lot of copycat behavior in it. If a top team wins a few times with a strategy, everyone uses it, even if the counter is obvious and easy. I have always said that MCs are an extremely viable first chamber, not in the least because you can drop the 2nd hive whenever you have the res and use the MCs to defend it. Just because other people are realizing that being creative and not just uberconservative can actually win games doesn't mean that the game is *now* unbalanced.
One of the most powerful strats in 1.0x was the MC lerk rush. I guarantee you that can work again in 3.0. Most teams are just too chicken to try new strats out, though. And that's dumb.
I voted buff marines, but not too much. It's pretty balanced now, I think, just sorta map dependant. Also I believe that people will be screaming for a nerf on mines soon if current trends continue <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Nadagast+Apr 16 2005, 12:41 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nadagast @ Apr 16 2005, 12:41 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> FIX Sensories. Decrease their power in the first ~5 minutes, and give them an extra ability or something to help SCs hold 2nd hive.
I voted buff marines, but not too much. It's pretty balanced now, I think, just sorta map dependant. Also I believe that people will be screaming for a nerf on mines soon if current trends continue <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> make them stackable, ala 2.01
Comments
ASC damage was removed precisely because the limitations of the HL engine make it very difficult to implement. Besides which, spawning and dying isn't any fun. Better to up the structure damage (but still make adrenaline a useful counter) than to add player damage.
If you keep buffing the marines or aliens the games don't last as long because one team ends up rushing and overpowering the other too quickly. It should feel like a struggle to win no matter which side you are playing.
So IMHO, a little nerf to aliens will in effect buff the marines and put the game one step closer to ballance.
Buff marines ftw.
+5 starting armor (would open up other tech paths)
Bin handgrenades, get an option that spawns every marine with welders
Get rid of screenshake as your weapon level increases for lmg/pistol
All good ideas.
I was going to add "Make MT more viable", but if you overdo it then you'll have every marine, his comm, dog, and family going MT first.
How are DCs not a viable first chamber, anyway? I think the chambers _in relation to each other_ are pretty balanced now. In relation to the marines it's a different story, of course. Cara and regen are still cara and regen.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I just want to say that I would rather see nerfing than buffing TBH. (I am talking about things like weapon damage/armor)
If you keep buffing the marines or aliens the games don't last as long because one team ends up rushing and overpowering the other too quickly. It should feel like a struggle to win no matter which side you are playing. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is definitely true.
I voted for buff the marines, but I'd like to bring up that the innate regen ability for aliens has had an extremely strong impact on the alien game: it takes an extra bullet to kill skulks. That's actually kind of big. Maybe it'd be better to make that innate regen only start working within a 1- or 2- second window after taking any amount of damage?
I think the marines should be buffed, with maybe a slight nerf to sensories.
They have fewer options because they are constrained to an upgrade path determined by cost & time. I would lower research time for marine abilities that include: Grenades (also grenade timing for throwing) & electricity. I would make catpacks a researchable upgrade, then drop them for 1 res each (this can be comparable to primal scream). I think the added benefits of the abilities that the marines have, but never use, will allow them that balanced edge in the game.
They have fewer options because they are constrained to an upgrade path determined by cost & time. I would lower research time for marine abilities that include: Grenades (also grenade timing for throwing) & electricity. I would make catpacks a researchable upgrade, then drop them for 1 res each (this can be comparable to primal scream). I think the added benefits of the abilities that the marines have, but never use, will allow them that balanced edge in the game. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
great idea...
this would not only possibly balance the game, but it would promote things in the game that are now fairly never used
thumbs up
Another idea (although I just had it so it might not be a very good one) would be to make catpacks only researchable from an advanced armory for either 20 or 30 res, whatever, and then reduce the cost of dropping them to 1. Currently catpacks are very underused and this is mostly due to the fact that A) They are very expensive to drop, B) Their expense isn't worth the res that they take away from A1, PGs, MT, etc, and C) Usually the commander doesn't have the extra res to drop catpacks when they are needed, usually during an offensive attack on a hive, which already bleeds you dry of any res you might have. A cheaper catpack could possibly be an effective way to boost the marines mid-game and add a new element to marine gameplay and commanding, but who knows until it is tested.
Also, is it possible to modfy it so that catpacks cost 3 when the armory isn't upgraded, and 1 when it is? This is just another part of this idea that I had that I didn't think would be able to pan out.
Marines have 2 choices from the proto lab. Imo there's just not enough content in ns. There's always one or two strats that become the only method of playing which makes everything boring.
You need to add stuff. Simply making the early game a bit less alien biased is not going to serve the community in the long run.
woot ^_^ Leader of Omega champions agrees with me.
Aliens have multiple choices. If you look at the Delta and Omega tournament finals, you'll see that all 3 chambers were used first.
Remember DMS? It's gotten a lot better.
I do agree that the marines need more choices.
...or make more shots register (come on tanke, I know you can fix it!!)
To address another issue derogatorily, people who think that these balance issues were created by 3.0 final are idiots. DCs and MCs, for all intents and purposes, haven't been changed since 2.0. The inherant regen is basically pointless. SCs - in particular cloaking - has been balanced out, but I still don't see it being used <b>more</b> than other chambers, and plus there were great SC strats used before 3.0 final. The competitive community has a lot of copycat behavior in it. If a top team wins a few times with a strategy, everyone uses it, even if the counter is obvious and easy. I have always said that MCs are an extremely viable first chamber, not in the least because you can drop the 2nd hive whenever you have the res and use the MCs to defend it. Just because other people are realizing that being creative and not just uberconservative can actually win games doesn't mean that the game is *now* unbalanced.
One of the most powerful strats in 1.0x was the MC lerk rush. I guarantee you that can work again in 3.0. Most teams are just too chicken to try new strats out, though. And that's dumb.
Remove cloaking <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I voted buff marines, but not too much. It's pretty balanced now, I think, just sorta map dependant. Also I believe that people will be screaming for a nerf on mines soon if current trends continue <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Most brilliant, yet least implementable idea ever.
Remove cloaking <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I voted buff marines, but not too much. It's pretty balanced now, I think, just sorta map dependant. Also I believe that people will be screaming for a nerf on mines soon if current trends continue <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
make them stackable, ala 2.01
Most brilliant, yet least implementable idea ever. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Its pretty easy, you just aim.
Most brilliant, yet least implementable idea ever. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Its pretty easy, you just aim. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Massively unrealisic oversized hitboxes would do it...