The Fall Of Competitive Ns
Crispy
Jaded GD Join Date: 2004-08-22 Member: 30793Members, Constellation
Jaded GD Join Date: 2004-08-22 Member: 30793Members, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">a possible contribuant?</div> I know I'm going to cause a stir when I say this, so just read the whole threadstarter and any posts before you hit reach for the reply button (you might save yourself a lot of writing by quoting a likeminded poster).
<i>Firstly I'm curious as to when competitive NS was at it's highest and whether it is, as the critics say, in decline. Are there really less clans, or is it that there is a bigger discrepancy between the upper and lower band of competitive players?</i>
Reading a thread in the <i>Competitive Discussion</i> forum, I came to realise just how much a config can add to your game. Now I'm no expert, which is why I'm going to be asking a lot of questions in this thread.
So, more questions:
<i>Of the .cfg file posted in <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=94532' target='_blank'>this thread</a> which, if any, command strings would be rendered useless by blockscripts?</i>
I would be lying if I said sorry to pick on you, JB007, but you pretty much volunteered yourself for criticism. Part of being reputedly one of the best players in NS, I guess. Now there's a reason for me posting this in General Discussion and not <i>Competitive Discussion</i>, or <i>Scripting Discussion</i>, and it has to do with the following:
I've been wondering about <b>how much of a positive effect that scripting has had on the NS Competitive scene</b>. I would propose the argument that the rise of script-use has had a negative effect on clanplay. Before you flame, here are my reasons/thoughts:
<span style='color:white'>o</span> Firstly and foremost, scripting is not natural for many players. It's not common in many other games, especially not in games that lead directly to NS through their shared format, the Half-life Engine.
<span style='color:white'>o</span> Anyone who was playing HL Mods from the start will remember the natural progression that led up to NS. We had HLDM and TFC. Then CS came out followed by S&I, FA, DoD, AHL which all lead up to NS. Of those main titles (I -think- TS came around the same time as NS or when early NS became popular), only CS, DoD and FA, to a lesser extent, became popularly played between clans. I can't think of any 'script' that was not severely frowned upon in any of those games, even at a higher level (I had a stint of CB Top20 CS and my bro was playing DoD up until quite recently). I'm not sure of how scripts are treated in other games played to a high competitive level, such as UT variants and QII/3A.
I think this has a lot to do with scripts in NS receiving the same treatment by uninformed players.
<span style='color:white'>o</span> I'd also like to add that the Dev team hasn't done much to promote or make a stand against the use of scripts, when they could clear up a lot of the confusion regarding this. It's not just scripts either, there's the issue of modified HUDs and other sprites such as custom shotgun sprites that show you where every shribbon of the cartridge will hit. So if anything, I would suggest that they are giving a mixed response.
They have created a game that is accessible as possible. They have never overcomplicated the shooting system, with no alternative-fire button and a very simple accuracy and aiming system (compare to CS, DoD, FA and newer versions of TS). They have made continued efforts to bring in new players to NS, creating implementing a new game mode, Combat. While this had the dual goal (and this is my opinion) of widening their market for UWEs benefit and also easing new NS players into NS, it has actually brought in a different type of player.
The pre-combat demographic was a player who liked the idea of RTS played with human units and on an FPS format. The post-combat player is either this or simply someone who likes the Aliens vs. Marine format.
To sum up, whether deliberately or accidentally bringing in new players, one could even go as far to say newbies (new to games playing in general), the NS team has failed to give public information on the use of scripts and more advanced techniques, elements which have become extremely important and without which, do not allow you to compete at the competitive level.
<b>This can only serve to further the gap and the animosity between competitive and pub players as ignorance leads to spite.</b>
So, open house. Post away...
<i>Firstly I'm curious as to when competitive NS was at it's highest and whether it is, as the critics say, in decline. Are there really less clans, or is it that there is a bigger discrepancy between the upper and lower band of competitive players?</i>
Reading a thread in the <i>Competitive Discussion</i> forum, I came to realise just how much a config can add to your game. Now I'm no expert, which is why I'm going to be asking a lot of questions in this thread.
So, more questions:
<i>Of the .cfg file posted in <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=94532' target='_blank'>this thread</a> which, if any, command strings would be rendered useless by blockscripts?</i>
I would be lying if I said sorry to pick on you, JB007, but you pretty much volunteered yourself for criticism. Part of being reputedly one of the best players in NS, I guess. Now there's a reason for me posting this in General Discussion and not <i>Competitive Discussion</i>, or <i>Scripting Discussion</i>, and it has to do with the following:
I've been wondering about <b>how much of a positive effect that scripting has had on the NS Competitive scene</b>. I would propose the argument that the rise of script-use has had a negative effect on clanplay. Before you flame, here are my reasons/thoughts:
<span style='color:white'>o</span> Firstly and foremost, scripting is not natural for many players. It's not common in many other games, especially not in games that lead directly to NS through their shared format, the Half-life Engine.
<span style='color:white'>o</span> Anyone who was playing HL Mods from the start will remember the natural progression that led up to NS. We had HLDM and TFC. Then CS came out followed by S&I, FA, DoD, AHL which all lead up to NS. Of those main titles (I -think- TS came around the same time as NS or when early NS became popular), only CS, DoD and FA, to a lesser extent, became popularly played between clans. I can't think of any 'script' that was not severely frowned upon in any of those games, even at a higher level (I had a stint of CB Top20 CS and my bro was playing DoD up until quite recently). I'm not sure of how scripts are treated in other games played to a high competitive level, such as UT variants and QII/3A.
I think this has a lot to do with scripts in NS receiving the same treatment by uninformed players.
<span style='color:white'>o</span> I'd also like to add that the Dev team hasn't done much to promote or make a stand against the use of scripts, when they could clear up a lot of the confusion regarding this. It's not just scripts either, there's the issue of modified HUDs and other sprites such as custom shotgun sprites that show you where every shribbon of the cartridge will hit. So if anything, I would suggest that they are giving a mixed response.
They have created a game that is accessible as possible. They have never overcomplicated the shooting system, with no alternative-fire button and a very simple accuracy and aiming system (compare to CS, DoD, FA and newer versions of TS). They have made continued efforts to bring in new players to NS, creating implementing a new game mode, Combat. While this had the dual goal (and this is my opinion) of widening their market for UWEs benefit and also easing new NS players into NS, it has actually brought in a different type of player.
The pre-combat demographic was a player who liked the idea of RTS played with human units and on an FPS format. The post-combat player is either this or simply someone who likes the Aliens vs. Marine format.
To sum up, whether deliberately or accidentally bringing in new players, one could even go as far to say newbies (new to games playing in general), the NS team has failed to give public information on the use of scripts and more advanced techniques, elements which have become extremely important and without which, do not allow you to compete at the competitive level.
<b>This can only serve to further the gap and the animosity between competitive and pub players as ignorance leads to spite.</b>
So, open house. Post away...
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm not going to get involved in this argument, but I wanted to comment that Flayra initially disclosed his reasoning behind the creation of combat as a means for servers to run a game that would work with a small number of players until it filled up. As you can imagine, playing an NS map with 3-4 people isn't all that fun. So combat was meant to be something that the server could run until enough people joined so that you could get a good NS game going. I really don't think he expected it to take on a life of its own like it did. As such, the extra mods are really an extension of the game in a direction that he really never intended it to go. (based on what he has said in the past anyway)
Regards,
Savant<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->If this is true then I consider myself corrected on that point, but I still think that one of Combat's roles was to open ûp NS to a wider audience.
Personally, I suggest Quake-like bunnyhopping, if simply to make it more accessible to public players who refuse to script. Also, I'm pretty sure this anti-script movement comes from CS.
With a game like Counter-Strike, a new 5-man team has a chance of getting something against a more experienced clan, but there's <b>no</b> chance of that happening in NS.
If you go onto #ns.search, there will always be around 5-10 clans that play often; and it's so obvious when a newbie clan joins and search a PCW. Results in a battering. Results in the new clan quitting.
I just hope Nexus will help to end this.
(Incidentally- I thought blockscripts wasn't used in America; it was just for us EU players? And, yes, I know many people who have quit NS because of blockscripts (thanks Voogru. I really hope leap-bite skulks aren't owning you like they used to; and it was worth many people quitting (oh and don't bother quoting population stats- NS is not as populated as it used to be in the EU))).
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm not going to get involved in this argument, but I wanted to comment that Flayra initially disclosed his reasoning behind the creation of combat as a means for servers to run a game that would work with a small number of players until it filled up. As you can imagine, playing an NS map with 3-4 people isn't all that fun. So combat was meant to be something that the server could run until enough people joined so that you could get a good NS game going. I really don't think he expected it to take on a life of its own like it did. As such, the extra mods are really an extension of the game in a direction that he really never intended it to go. (based on what he has said in the past anyway)
Regards,
Savant<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->If this is true then I consider myself corrected on that point, but I still think that one of Combat's roles was to open ûp NS to a wider audience. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
The primary purpose of combat was to be an introduction to NS and to attract players from other 'simpler' games. Hence the 'dumbing down' of ns for combat. Although that's not to say that's all it was designed for. As you can probably imagine, in most cases, the simpler a multiplayer game is, the less people you need to play it.
Combat was designed with both these goals in mind; to make NS as a mod more readily accessable and to fill the 2-6 player 'dead zone' that ns_ servers have.
I must say I take personal issues with scripts, bhopping, and other things unavailable to the new NS player. I would like to play more competitively, but I'll never use a script. I don't think it fair to have an advantage over another player because you have a script and he doesn't. I believe a truly skilled player can sit in front of any PC with NS loaded, set up his custom settings within the options, and play as well as if he were on his own machine. That's just me, don't derail this thread b/c of it.
With that said, I agree either bhop and scripts need to be addressed by the official NS team. Put them out there publically by the team, integrate them into NS, or say we don't recommend the use of them. It's frustrating to new players when I'm trying to introduce someone to NS for the first time, and there's this uber speed crack skulk or marine who shoots 10 pistol shots per second, then, the new player ceases to be interested inthe mechanics of the game, and now wants those "skills" for himself. That, or he/she gets frustrated and leaves. This isn't 99% of the time, but I've seen it personally with people I've introduced. The CS players want to "pwn" like that, and the others new to this style of game get frustrated and leave. NS within itself is overwhelming to a beginner, learning how to master certain things or get owned by one skulk/fade/bhopping marine in a 18 player server doesn't help that.
Judging by that comment you havent played that much competative counter-strike, have you?
I think there are 3 points at which people think NS was at its peak competitively, and two of them kind of blend together. (1) You have CAL-NS Season 0 which was 1.04 play, and was from where the 1.1 Vet clans were chosen. (2) Then you have Season 1 into Season 2 which spawned the first reformation clans and juggernaut clans comprised of the top players from earlier clans, and also was when CAL transitioned from Geographic based divisions to skill based ones. (3) And then the most recent peak was probably Season 5 which featured far more clans returning from the previous season, and/or stayed on for the next season then had done so previously, and was the first time since Season 2 where the upper division didn't collapse upon itself near the end of the season.
And there has always been a gap between the upper and lower band of competitive players. And at least since 2.0 or so it has had little or nothing to do with their ability to write a script or bunnyhop, and more to do with practicing together so people know what to do and what to expect, and knowing how the game has to flow on either side to get a win.
<!--QuoteBegin-Crispy+Jun 12 2005, 06:46 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Crispy @ Jun 12 2005, 06:46 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->[*]Anyone who was playing HL Mods from the start will remember the natural progression that led up to NS. We had HLDM and TFC. Then CS came out followed by S&I, FA, DoD, AHL which all lead up to NS. Of those main titles (I -think- TS came around the same time as NS or when early NS became popular), only CS, DoD and FA, to a lesser extent, became popularly played between clans. I can't think of any 'script' that was not severely frowned upon in any of those games, even at a higher level<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's interesting you put TFC in that list, a game which, at both the competitive and public levels is entirely centered around breaking the game engine. Bunnyhopping, Strafe Jumping, Glide-Hopping, Conc-Jumping, Pipebomb-Jumping, etc etc. Leagues tried to outlaw certain techniques, and in the end it was always them trying to react to whatever glitch the players had figured out. I know scripting was incredibly "rampant" here (note the quotes before you flame, thanks), as I remember downloading configs and pouring over them trying to figure out what all the commands and other weirdness in them did.
Judging by that comment you havent played that much competative counter-strike, have you? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think he means a lower ranked team playing a middle ranked team. You can learn a lot from making mistakes against a team a bit better than you, but you can't learn a lot from getting completely destroyed.
NS-C needs a middle ground.
---
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Regardless, this really belongs in the competitive forum, as that is its subject. Moving it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Its subject is to address the gap between high and low ranked clan players. I proposed many things, one of which is that public players aren't getting enough info on public play.
Tankfugl, just to make things clearer. I put that thread in the General Discussion because it does apply to the average player. It is the average player who feeds the lower-ranked teams whose players, in turn, get better and feed the upper-ranked teams. No average player is going to join a clan if he doesn't agree with the idea of scripting or if he lacks knowledge on bunny-hopping and other advanced movement techniques. By putting this in the Competitive Discussion forum, surely you're just further distancing the gap between Joe Public and the competitive player.
This privacy of information is precisely what I'm getting at. I've sent you a PM too.
I personally don't think there is much difference between customizing your binds and using scripts. I think you should probably know that the pistol's rate of fire is capped to less than 10 shots per second. Those two aspects you listed (uber speed crack skulk, marine who shoots 10 pistol shots per second), when you see them, shouldn't automatically attributed to the use of scripts. I can bhop and shoot my pistol quickly, without scripts, by only customizing my binds (mousewheel bound to +jump, and both left and right mouse buttons bound to +attack). That's why I think it's wrong to assimilate those things with scripts.
I am of the opinion that bhop should be made more accessible to the new players, but in the end, I don't think won't change much. Why ? Because if a player wants to learn and find out new things, he will bother to go and find information on the internet, there is plenty enough.
One of the problems is that the new clans tend to give up too quickly. They get beat several times at the start, and get discouraged. There are also clans that aren't really active, playing practice matches from time to time, paying attention not to play clans that are too good for them. This results in a stagnant scene, where low level clans play each other, and higher level ones having a hard time finding other teams to play practice matches against.
Judging by that comment you havent played that much competative counter-strike, have you? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not since classic Counter-Strike, where I finished in the top 20 of the ClanBase EU OpenCup. Must have been about 5 years ago.
Judging by that comment you havent played that much competative counter-strike, have you? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not since classic Counter-Strike, where I finished in the top 20 of the ClanBase EU OpenCup. Must have been about 5 years ago. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Counter-Strike has evolved a lot since then..
The NS devs are supporting bunnyhopping - saying it's an intended part of the game. Except that they've done nothing at all to introduce new players to it... you always have to find out from someone else, or search forums, etc. Why? If it's a part of the game, put it in the manual or something. <b>Teach people about it</b>.
There's one way of making the gap shorter.
---
It looks like this thread is staying here for now. Nobody has replied to say whether they think that NS' competitive scene is in decline or not?
- Would anyone say there isn't a problem?
Note: This thread makes the assumption that competitive NS is somehow in decline. This is up for debate as it may or may not be true.
lol, blockscripts was introduced because the majority of people believed that scripting should leave, and I'm sure a large part of these people are the very same people that are asking blockscripts to be removed. It was always unfair to be able to empty your whole pistol clip in a split second, and marine bunnyhopping was very frowned upon, and I guess these two were the main reason why blockscripts was encouraged.
You can choose the servers you play on, I can't see how blockscripts can make people quit NS, especially if so many are pro-script as well as so many are against scripting. There's more than enough of both for everyone to be satisfied by this single aspect of the game. (Though, yes, the EU scene is totally broken)
I think he meant that a player might see someone doing that kind of stuff, nevermind if the pro in question is using scripts or not, and want to do the same; obviously, being too new to the game, he'll need help to do it. Scripts would come in handy then.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If a player wants to learn and find out new things, he will bother to go and find information on the internet, there is plenty enough.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ah, but first he needs to know what the heck those other players are doing. Or how. Most likely he would just assume that it's just a matter of clicking really fast or jumping around like a madman and never even ask what it is, and definitely not how to do it.
So it would be a good idea to at least put the names of techniques and suchlike in the official manual, and a brief explanation on how to do it, and what the effect is.
though i can't say i've been playing alot since the start of 3.0 public.
I've quit because of blockscripts attitude.
tfc
lol, blockscripts was introduced because the majority of people believed that scripting should leave, and I'm sure a large part of these people are the very same people that are asking blockscripts to be removed. It was always unfair to be able to empty your whole pistol clip in a split second, and marine bunnyhopping was very frowned upon, and I guess these two were the main reason why blockscripts was encouraged.
You can choose the servers you play on, I can't see how blockscripts can make people quit NS, especially if so many are pro-script as well as so many are against scripting. There's more than enough of both for everyone to be satisfied by this single aspect of the game. (Though, yes, the EU scene is totally broken)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
marine bunnyhopping has nothing to do with blockscripts
blockscripts is still a vague movement to ban bunnyhopping, because many people, mostly people who can't do it, cannot stand it.
oh yeah im glad to hear voogru left too, he was retarded enough to try a <b>250 ms delay</b> on weapon switching to kill "scripting" on his **** server before
With a game like Counter-Strike, a new 5-man team has a chance of getting something against a more experienced clan, but there's <b>no</b> chance of that happening in NS.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wrong. I'm guessing you have NEVER even made the CHANCE to enter CAL-ns. There are PLENTY of low omega teams that new clans can compete with. Then get better, and advance in competitive skill.
<!--QuoteBegin-Crispy+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Crispy)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You can learn a lot from making mistakes against a team a bit better than you, but you can't learn a lot from getting completely destroyed.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Getting completely destroyed is what helps you. You learn what you did wrong and what they did right. Soon you'll almost take a half away from them. Learn a bit more and more then you'll progress to taking a half away and tying. Then start winning.
A perfect example would be {LoC} who entered CAL as basically a no name clan, and now is a very strong competitor in delta.
And Garet Jax, Don't tell me a clan can't get anywhere in CAL-ns, LoC has proven you wrong.
I don't see how this contributes in any way to any purported "fall" of competitive NS. Of course scripting isn't natural- it's a form of customization (as controversial as it may be).
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->o Anyone who was playing HL Mods from the start will remember the natural progression that led up to NS. We had HLDM and TFC. Then CS came out followed by S&I, FA, DoD, AHL which all lead up to NS. Of those main titles (I -think- TS came around the same time as NS or when early NS became popular), only CS, DoD and FA, to a lesser extent, became popularly played between clans. I can't think of any 'script' that was not severely frowned upon in any of those games, even at a higher level (I had a stint of CB Top20 CS and my bro was playing DoD up until quite recently). I'm not sure of how scripts are treated in other games played to a high competitive level, such as UT variants and QII/3A.
I think this has a lot to do with scripts in NS receiving the same treatment by uninformed players.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So according to you, uninformed players are the problem, not scripts.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->o I'd also like to add that the Dev team hasn't done much to promote or make a stand against the use of scripts, when they could clear up a lot of the confusion regarding this. It's not just scripts either, there's the issue of modified HUDs and other sprites such as custom shotgun sprites that show you where every shribbon of the cartridge will hit. So if anything, I would suggest that they are giving a mixed response.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They shouldn't need to give any response.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->To sum up, whether deliberately or accidentally bringing in new players, one could even go as far to say newbies (new to games playing in general), the NS team has failed to give public information on the use of scripts and more advanced techniques, elements which have become extremely important and without which, do not allow you to compete at the competitive level.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You do not need scripts to compete. Competitive NS is more about how well you can aim and how smart of a skulk you are than how quickly your pistol fires or how quickly you can hit 500 while bunnyhopping (as JazzX said). Putting gameplay scripts aside, you are also ignoring the vast number of "convenience" scripts (ones to execute different configs, rebind keys, the +calsnap script that lynxij wrote to take easy pre-game screenshots) which do nothing but make competitive play <b>easier</b> for players.
If anything, it's mIRC and/or Ventrilo (or other voicecomm software) you can't compete without.
Besides, even if scripting were that hard (putting aside the numerous places you could go to have one written for you, if you don't want to learn to write them yourself), could your "newbies" handle that information? People who barely know how to play the game should not be presented with advanced techniques before they've learned the basics. And if you don't know the basics of NS, you really have no business playing competitive.
Finally, I want to caution you against starting another pro- vs anti-script discussion. Those tired out a long time ago.
With a game like Counter-Strike, a new 5-man team has a chance of getting something against a more experienced clan, but there's <b>no</b> chance of that happening in NS.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wrong. I'm guessing you have NEVER even made the CHANCE to enter CAL-ns. There are PLENTY of low omega teams that new clans can compete with. Then get better, and advance in competitive skill.
<!--QuoteBegin-Crispy+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Crispy)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You can learn a lot from making mistakes against a team a bit better than you, but you can't learn a lot from getting completely destroyed.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Getting completely destroyed is what helps you. You learn what you did wrong and what they did right. Soon you'll almost take a half away from them. Learn a bit more and more then you'll progress to taking a half away and tying. Then start winning.
A perfect example would be {LoC} who entered CAL as basically a no name clan, and now is a very strong competitor in delta.
And Garet Jax, Don't tell me a clan can't get anywhere in CAL-ns, LoC has proven you wrong. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ride on the clue train: He's European and the comparison you use from the American scene is completely irrelevant.
For the topic creator: No, competitive NS is not in a decline. I've been playing NS competitive since 1.04, and have been perceptive enough to notice a few reoccuring trends in competitive NS the last few years:
1. The cycle
- Every once in a while, some times affected by big vacations such as summer
other times seemingly completely random, activity either drastically drops or
drastically goes up.
2. The whine
- Random naysayers whining about the decline or death of competitive ns, or ns
as a whole. Sometimes following the cycle, other times appearing completely
randomly, even though the scene is as active as it's ever been (a good
example from EU NS would be people whining about lack of activity in NS
during the GO tournament, when activity was as high as it's ever been from
my recollection).
Right now -- I can only speak for the European scene -- the European scene is in a semi-slump, although being slightly revitalized by the recent onset of the new ENSL competition. Activity is decently high in the top teams, while there are very few new teams being created and activity among the lower class teams is lackluster. This slump will probably continue into a full scale recession and even depression during summer, only to start up again during August/September as has been the norm for the last two years.
on a side note thats probably the biggest reason its hard to learn the game
on a side note thats probably the biggest reason its hard to learn the game <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I beg to differ. Before I finally got around to purchasing a copy of half-life early last summer (I was in the process of building a new computer all throughout last spring) I would hop onto the NS page when I was bored and read through the manual again and again. When I finally loaded up NS I didn't know about hiding in res nodes or that bunny-hopping existed, but I had a fair idea as to what was going on and that I shouldn't just hop in the cc right away.
What you're attributing to bunny-hopping is simply a bunch of players who didn't do what I did. They didn't read the manual and hopped on, figuring it would be self-explanatory, like CS and TFC. It's not a quirk in Half Life's movement code that results in players having a difficult time learning how to play, any glance at a new player's horde of questions can show you that. NS is a complex mod and vastly different than some of the more popular games out there. It's difficult to learn how to play due to that fact.
Following the brief period where they're shocked at the sight of an onos, players still aren't at the competitive level. That's where practice and learning the intricacies of specialized classes come in. Some players figure out the ins and outs of fading straight off, while others need a month or two to get really good. Playing an FPS is radically different to playing as the kharaa, and new players have to get used to that.
Now, I've elaborated because I'm assuming that by 'learn the game' you mean 'get skilled at the game', because if it's all about learning the game, then the devs could just toss the old manual up there so that players know what a skulk is. But getting skilled at NS is more than just learning about proper movement and pistol scripts. They won't help you if you can't react to an ambush or can't blink-swipe. There are base skills to playing NS decently and bunny-hopping isn't required. You can still rig up an ambush to kill a CAL-delta player without bunnyhopping and it's far from necessary to either learn or grow skilled at the game.
The NS devs are supporting bunnyhopping - saying it's an intended part of the game. Except that they've done nothing at all to introduce new players to it... you always have to find out from someone else, or search forums, etc. Why? If it's a part of the game, put it in the manual or something. <b>Teach people about it</b>.
There's one way of making the gap shorter. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Unfortunately some people do not want to learn and do not keep open minds. Believe me I have tried to teach people, and if they aren't cooperative, then its a waste of time.
A lot of my experiences with NSlearn were to me a waste of time. There were a few players that actually used what I taught them, and others who just went back to the way they played, even after learning a more effective method.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Right I guess he should have realized that euros cry and quit when they lose.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Right I guess he should have realized that euros cry and quit when they lose. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, he should've realized that the Euro scene is smaller and less active than the american one, especially amongst the lesser skilled clans. While the European top clans are pretty much always around looking for practices, the new clans only play once in a while and can be hard to find for other newer clans.
But hey, let's all be ignorant ****wits like you -- it's so much more fun.
on a side note thats probably the biggest reason its hard to learn the game <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You dont have to know how to bunnyhop to play ns well, sure it helps you but you can compete without it
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Right I guess he should have realized that euros cry and quit when they lose. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, he should've realized that the Euro scene is smaller and less active than the american one, especially amongst the lesser skilled clans. While the European top clans are pretty much always around looking for practices, the new clans only play once in a while and can be hard to find for other newer clans.
But hey, let's all be ignorant ****wits like you -- it's so much more fun. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
QFT.
This will start a flame war- but at the end of this day, this is nothing more than a gaming forum.
Here goes.
The Americans have a tendancy to believe that nothing else exists outside of their country. The competitive scene in the U.S. may be fine, but it's a huge problem in the EU. And just because the problem doesn't exist in the U.S., doesn't mean that the problem doesn't exist at all.
(As another example, I remember seeing a thread entitled "Demos of the best teams in the world". It was only an exi/terror CAL demo, where neither team had the ability to finish off the other team. But my point is that the poster assumed his countries players are <i>so</i> much better than those he doesn't know about.
It can't happen, but I'd love to see exi play knife with even pings. Of course, I could just quote the last NA-EU match (3-1 to us, kthx) but I'm sure you can explain that one away)
I look forward to your responses!