<!--QuoteBegin-Garet Jax+Jun 12 2005, 04:10 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Garet Jax @ Jun 12 2005, 04:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-fanatic+Jun 12 2005, 09:23 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (fanatic @ Jun 12 2005, 09:23 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-MrGunner+Jun 12 2005, 08:38 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MrGunner @ Jun 12 2005, 08:38 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-fanatic+Jun 12 2005, 10:33 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (fanatic @ Jun 12 2005, 10:33 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Ride on the clue train: He's European and the comparison you use from the American scene is completely irrelevant. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Right I guess he should have realized that euros cry and quit when they lose. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> No, he should've realized that the Euro scene is smaller and less active than the american one, especially amongst the lesser skilled clans. While the European top clans are pretty much always around looking for practices, the new clans only play once in a while and can be hard to find for other newer clans.
But hey, let's all be ignorant ****wits like you -- it's so much more fun. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> QFT.
This will start a flame war- but at the end of this day, this is nothing more than a gaming forum.
Here goes.
The Americans have a tendancy to believe that nothing else exists outside of their country. The competitive scene in the U.S. may be fine, but it's a huge problem in the EU. And just because the problem doesn't exist in the U.S., doesn't mean that the problem doesn't exist at all.
(As another example, I remember seeing a thread entitled "Demos of the best teams in the world". It was only an exi/terror CAL demo, where neither team had the ability to finish off the other team. But my point is that the poster assumed his countries players are <i>so</i> much better than those he doesn't know about.
It can't happen, but I'd love to see exi play knife with even pings. Of course, I could just quote the last NA-EU match (3-1 to us, kthx) but I'm sure you can explain that one away)
I look forward to your responses! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You could also remember when sYn dominated the globe and the euros were making excuses. But you probably weren't even around then.
- having information out there that is written by or at least officially endorsed by the creators of a game, so that players know that this is pertinent information tha they should take on board
or
- having no information whatsoever on the effectiveness/importance/allowance of advanced techniques like bunnyhopping, mid-jump air control, pistol scripts, mousewheelbinds, custom sprites and many more aspects of the game that give rise to such heated debates as this, and leave a player who might be thinking about playing NS competitively wondering who is right, wth is going on and whether it's really worth the bother.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
NSlearn was never officially endorsed. They their counter part NSguides who only started to do things AFTER official recognition was cut loose, we acomplished more in a month then they have in all of their time (yes this includes the first NSguides as well). This is one the reasons I took it down.
So that information was never endorsed by the dev team. Quite frankly I don't have sympathy for new players in the competitive scene. I learned the ins and outs of the game by exploring the game by myself, there were no resources when I started playing.
<!--QuoteBegin-Swiftspear+Jun 13 2005, 01:47 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Swiftspear @ Jun 13 2005, 01:47 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> gg and fae are good teams, I know alot of the guys who play for both and they should have no problem doing well in cal, either this season or next. Tell me FAT or on|e tied a team of the calibur of slot1 and I would be owned, but gg and fae prove nothing. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The fact that FaE comes from a horrible 28 man server full of complete retards amazes me. If you ever play with them you would have never thought they would have come from that horrid server and become such good players. All of FaE had never played competitive ns in their lives and then got some of the best players from their horrid server and took 3rd seed, that is very very hard to do. Gj FaE, and Gl
I am sick of listening to people whine about how much scripts effect gameplay. They don't that much. Take any top level clan you want (Terror, Exi, LoC, Reflect, knife, etc.) and make them play without scripts. They probably won't move as fast as they normally do but they will still own you. Competative NS has so little to do with scripts that its ridiculous that people blame scripts for losing. Wait until you log around 500+ hours scrimming against top level teams, then come back and tell me what you think of scripts.
The competative scene only seems to be dieing because top tier teams are breaking up. Fact of the matter is, we have more active teams in CAL than (I believe) ever before. NS isn't dieing, its evolving. The reason we can't have multiple leagues is because of the small amount of clans willing to try. Right now we have about 30 teams. Nowhere near enough to have a third division, let alone different conferences.
A lot of new clans play one scrim, usually against a delta team because they're the only ones that scrim most of the time, get owned and break up. You can never base an entire game on one scrim, especially against a team that plays as much as delta clans do.
There <i>is</i> an advantage resulting from higher pings. But only if you're used to playing with them. Read up on how servers detect hits and misses, then think about it. If a player with low ping rounds a corner, a player with high ping can hit him even though they haven't seen him yet. When the low ping player goes back around the corner, the high ping player can keep hitting him until the player leaves his screen. Anyone who thinks that is not an advantage if the player is used to it isn't using his brain mass.
Today's top players spent the time and energy learning about NS and tweaking their setups. Does it give them an advantage? Maybe. Does it give them an <i>unfair</i> advantage? No. Plain and simple.
Those "gamma hax" can be setup from the in-game menu.
The "uber leet bhop script" Isn't a bunnyhop script. Its a jump script. All it does (like router said) is send multiple jump commands to the server so the jump is easier to time. Even with a jump script, it takes many HOURS and HOURS of practice to master it. Bunny hopping doesn't make you a better skulk at all. All it does is allow players to get to ambush spots a little bit faster.
That "pistol script hax" can be done without a script. Most players <i>can</i> hit the cap on RoF for the pistol without a script. Players use pistol scripts as a convenience.
<!--QuoteBegin-GoDlol+Jun 13 2005, 01:32 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (GoDlol @ Jun 13 2005, 01:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Swiftspear+Jun 13 2005, 01:47 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Swiftspear @ Jun 13 2005, 01:47 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> gg and fae are good teams, I know alot of the guys who play for both and they should have no problem doing well in cal, either this season or next. Tell me FAT or on|e tied a team of the calibur of slot1 and I would be owned, but gg and fae prove nothing. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The fact that FaE comes from a horrible 28 man server full of complete retards amazes me. If you ever play with them you would have never thought they would have come from that horrid server and become such good players. All of FaE had never played competitive ns in their lives and then got some of the best players from their horrid server and took 3rd seed, that is very very hard to do. Gj FaE, and Gl <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> FaE Rules
Talk about a team that came out of nowhere and rocked everything on nothing but their own merit.
Ok, after 4 days of my internet being down I come to find this discussion layed out for me (ty tank... I know where you live). There has been some flaming going on, and seeing as Its pointless to weed out what has been said thus far, drop it (the euro vs americana flaming, the seasons under ones belt making them more manly etc). Keep to the topic and I wont be throwing out temp bans from here on out. Less then three to crispy.
The Euro scene is just a bit screwed up, not really in decline.
Yeah sure you have the high-level teams that either are exceptionally good or have been together a long time (eg knife/levi/bs/<3) that scrim as often as they can, are fairly consistent etc and generally make the scene look good.
Then you have the mid to top level teams in the background which is where the scene is falling apart. You have clans folding and being created all the time, player recycling is rampant as players try to find a good stable roster to play with. In short, you have the likes of #final.ns, #cute.ns, #plan-b.ns, #kec etc etc That is where the scene is dying, and that is where it needs to change. These clans are fairly good in terms of raw talent but dont practise as much as they could.
Then you have the bottom teams who are mostly pub clans that decide to start playing competetively - and they get dicked every pcw either by knife and levi because they play so much and are so good, or by the mid-level teams such as config or reddog who have the talent advantage to carry them through when their teamwork isn't up to scratch.
Scripts : They make such an incredibly miniscule difference if you actually know what the **** you're talking about that it's not a topic worth talking about in the context of competetive play. Fair enough the US players see it for what it is - the next step in customizing your control setup, whilst 99% of euro players scream 'hax' as loud as they can and try to ignore the fact that they're just looking for an excuse as to why they lose.
Far worse a problem in this context is that of connection rates. I cannot tell you the number of times I have emptied 35+ lmg rounds into a skulk at point blank (and I can tell when a skulk should be dead) and only 6 or so register, and you get wasted. I refer you to the knifegaming 'spaniards.avi' video.
I know I personally get so frustrated when this happens and everybody I play with just takes it for granted that im 'whining' because I died. The thing that gets me is not that I died, it's that I know that on a LAN that skulk would be dead 3 times over.
The amount of times I've checked my match demos only to find player after player with
rate 9999 cl_updaterate 20
it takes the ****.
There's a big difference between the clan scene being in decline because people 'cry when they lose' and when people genuinely get so hacked off with losing game after game which they kow they should have won, or would have done on LAN.
It really is a sad day for NS when crappy rates > skill
The problem is extremely simple: the community is very, very small, and the requirement for a competitive team is a robust roster of players who can fulfill multiple roles, on top of the fact that NS is a very deep and involved game. The difference between someone who plays constantly to improve himself and a random pubber who doesn't care is astronomical. There needs to be a much larger playerbase in order to drive the requirements of such an involved game.
At the high level, there need to be enough clans of equal ability to blur the lines between who occupies which position in the pecking order. With a small number of teams on top of the market the scene gets stale rather quickly. There aren't enough players to feed the system. The top level is fed by the success of your low level system - get more players involved and the ladder will feed itself. See next paragraph.
On the low end, you need a massive amount of teams of all skill levels to interact with each other, and <i><b>you need an easy and effective way to get them together</b></i>. IRC is difficult and mysterious. It impedes the process of getting players of less dedication together to form teams and play each other formally. A new player with his new group of friends has NO CLUE how to even find other teams to play against, multiplied by the small number of them in existence making it more difficult. Give them a place to create a community that automatically includes them. (Load up NS, get automatically connected to a chat channel that incorporates team management, stats, and rankings. This needs to be robust, but more importantly, a player needs to be involved in this without any initial effort; frankly, it has to cater to the idiots by involving them regardless of their inability to even configure their own controls. Then build up from there with features for the competents.) This could be what the new Nexus thing is, I honestly don't know; had there been something like this from the start the game and community would be drastically different right now, for the better.
The Cliff Notes: You need WAY more players than you have now (re: how many CS players are there on servers at any given time that aren't involved in the serious competitive scene? Lots. Only a certain portion of a game's playerbase are cut out for competitive play, the ratio being roughly determined by a game's complexity and involvement (translation: extremely high for NS). See second sentence of post.
Make it easy for players to form teams and arrange matches. Chat channels, team organization, rankings, and servers for teams to play scrims on (extremely important and seriously lacking right now). Integrate, integrate, simplify, simplify.
Edit: In my haste I forgot a very important and obvious problem: combat. Combat is absorbing all of the fresh blood and conditioning them to expect something that the REAL game is not about in any way, shape, or fashion. Combat teaches? Not the right things... a new player who plays combat learns to expect to: spawn rapidly, be able to die with no repercussions, rush into situations with no thought or preparation, expect the equipment of his choice to be provided to him instantly upon every spawning, make upgrade choices which are totally bogus, be able to choose cloaking immediately and play the alien side with no skill, ability, or planning, not follow orders, not work with his teammates, not develop situational awareness, not learn the value of resources, not learn the value of territory control, not learn the value of investments such as structures and hives, have the game resolve itself within fifteen minutes, be able to run faster than normal, have more hps than intended, recharge energy limitlessly, charge infinitely, obtain self-welding armor that can also go beyond standard quantities, obtain scans automatically without any knowledge at all of enemy presence, evolve endlessly with no regard for situation or strategy, be able to xeno every life with no thought or effort into playing the game normally, not parasite marines, not scout for enemies, not use any communication about match development, recieve ammunition and health from the commander immediately and precisely in all situations, not learn how to build structures, not learn how to place mines properly... I'm not done but I have a headache and am in serious need of some sleep right now, so I'll leave it at that. Not the most well-organized list but read through it and ask yourself if, being a brand new player in this world of "gimme now" syndrome: why would you want to play regular NS after being subjected to such a bastardization of the real thing?
What happens when a random 32 player (translation: ridiculous) server goes from a combat map to an NS map? "WTH ns sucks" "who's gonna comm?" "gimme a shotty" "how do i gain levels?" "why aren't i spawning?" "how do i go onos?" "how do i build stuff?" "gimme a jetpack" "i wanna hide in the chair" "make me one too" "WTH i got cloaking but focus doesn't work" "where'd my upgrades go?" "why can't i xeno?"
Please, tell me how this helps the system. Please. I love the game to death and it's killing me to see things go this way. I miss it so much but it's falling apart slowly but surely. You can't cater to both crowds at once without giving something up. Real NS will suffer due to popular demand.
Most teams lack someone with the leadership skills to keep them together for more than half a season of CAL. Just look at how many delta clans in the past few seasons have been and gone so quickly. The best teams are the ones that stay together: terror, exi, knife, <3, levi. When the going gets tough players up and leave for new teams unless there is someone there to hold them together.
Another thing I'd like to mention regarding the health of competetive play is that the farm team mini craze of last season has done wonders for the North American community. CO2 and Refract are in 4th and 5th place this season, with rosters consisting of primarily new players. Those farm clans that have died have still contributed, with many of their players joining other clans. The hands on teaching higher level clans are able to provide really helps bridge the gap for new people.
It's hard to really get good without playing fairly often reasonably compeditively, and most compeditive teams rape farm teams so badly there really is no point. Farm teams, buddy teams, and non skill based teams need avenues where they can organize and compeate with eachother. Otherwize they will just continuously skirt outside the skill requirements for cal, and never acctually hop up a level. The ammount of farm teams that can compeate with fae or GG are astronomically low, if even existant any more.
<!--QuoteBegin-Garet Jax+Jun 12 2005, 05:10 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Garet Jax @ Jun 12 2005, 05:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The Americans have a tendancy to believe that nothing else exists outside of their country. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> this is true. I have noticed it of a few euros as well; mostly English.
but i have also come across random good people when i never expected it. people who knew what was up. people who got it
NS_ is all about strategy... placement... timing... prediction... reacting.
I believe CO_ put the emphasis back onto bunny hoping... CO_ is all that is wrong with NS... embodied in a secondary play mode for the Half life modification we all know and love.
<!--QuoteBegin-DrFurious+Jun 13 2005, 05:53 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DrFurious @ Jun 13 2005, 05:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Another thing I'd like to mention regarding the health of competetive play is that the farm team mini craze of last season has done wonders for the North American community. CO2 and Refract are in 4th and 5th place this season, with rosters consisting of primarily new players. Those farm clans that have died have still contributed, with many of their players joining other clans. The hands on teaching higher level clans are able to provide really helps bridge the gap for new people. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> But Furious the only thing you taught us was how to spam music loudly in vent
<span style='color:red'>Things I've learnt from this thread:</span>
Firstly, scripting. While I have learnt a hell of a lot about scripting, this thread was not a scripting debate, and some forum members seem to have used it as yet another soapbox to air their views on it (I guess they musta missed the 5000 scripting threads via the search function, and the <i>Scripting Forum</i>). That said, I did say that us normal players need some things cleaned up for us so that some of the scripting myths can be laid to rest. I think this thread has so far greatly helped that cause. I myself, and I hope other unenlightened players reading (despite the fact that it's in the <i>Competitive Forum</i>) have gained valuable knowledge about how much scripting is used and to what advantage (it is indisputable that scripting gives an advantage, no matter how small, otherwise nobody would even use them). On to the list...<ul><li><span style='color:white'>There is no bunnyhop script, it's a three-jump script which simply means a little less to think about for a player when bunnyhopping.</span>While I still see it as lazy, I can see that it offers minimal advantage as you still have to concentrate on directing your jumps.</li><li><span style='color:white'>While Blink-Swipe scripts exist, they are not really deemed useful by any decent competitive Fade player.</span>Nuff said, these aren't worth using.</li><li><span style='color:white'>At the very highest level of NS play the most important elements are teamwork, experience and flexibility. These are what set teams apart and scripting at that level has very little to do with this.</span></li></ul>I would argue that this is the case for any team-based game, and it has been my belief for a good few years now. <b>Teamwork</b> deals with how well you can communicate the latest information to every member of your team and how well you can work together to implement it. <b>Experience</b> is how well you know the gaming environment, how well you know the units and upgrades and how well you know your team's strengths and weaknesses (and your enemy if possible). <b>Flexibility</b> Is how well a team member and the team as a whole can respond to elements that interfere (this could be to your benefit) with your original goal and strategy (both teams' mistakes and the other team's tactics).
Scripting can probably be laid to rest on this one.
[Edit] Yeah you're right Router, I think the cyberathlete dig's better left out of this thread.
<!--QuoteBegin-Swiftspear+Jun 13 2005, 09:55 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Swiftspear @ Jun 13 2005, 09:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> compeditively <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> k, this is the last time i'm going to sit here and read that word.
<!--QuoteBegin-Raz+Jun 14 2005, 06:25 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Raz @ Jun 14 2005, 06:25 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-DrFurious+Jun 13 2005, 05:53 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DrFurious @ Jun 13 2005, 05:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Another thing I'd like to mention regarding the health of competetive play is that the farm team mini craze of last season has done wonders for the North American community. CO2 and Refract are in 4th and 5th place this season, with rosters consisting of primarily new players. Those farm clans that have died have still contributed, with many of their players joining other clans. The hands on teaching higher level clans are able to provide really helps bridge the gap for new people. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> But Furious the only thing you taught us was how to spam music loudly in vent <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> hey now, I also provide important life lessons about blindly clicking on unknown links
<!--QuoteBegin-Crispy+Jun 14 2005, 06:34 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Crispy @ Jun 14 2005, 06:34 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <span style='color:red'>Things I've learnt from this thread:</span>
Firstly, scripting. While I have learnt a hell of a lot about scripting, this thread was not a scripting debate, and some forum members seem to have used it as yet another soapbox to air their views on it (I guess they musta missed the 5000 scripting threads via the search function, and the <i>Scripting Forum</i>). That said, I did say that us normal players need some things cleaned up for us so that some of the scripting myths can be laid to rest. I think this thread has so far greatly helped that cause. I myself, and I hope other unenlightened players reading (despite the fact that it's in the <i>Competitive Forum</i>) have gained valuable knowledge about how much scripting is used and to what advantage (it is indisputable that scripting gives an advantage, no matter how small, otherwise nobody would even use them). On to the list...<ul><li><span style='color:white'>There is no bunnyhop script, it's a three-jump script which simply means a little less to think about for a player when bunnyhopping.</span>While I still see it as lazy, I can see that it offers minimal advantage as you still have to concentrate on directing your jumps.</li><li><span style='color:white'>While Blink-Swipe scripts exist, they are not really deemed useful by any decent competitive Fade player.</span>Nuff said, these aren't worth using.</li><li><span style='color:white'>At the very highest level of NS play the most important elements are teamwork, experience and flexibility. These are what set teams apart and scripting at that level has very little to do with this.</span></li></ul>I would argue that this is the case for any team-based game, and it has been my belief for a good few years now. <b>Teamwork</b> deals with how well you can communicate the latest information to every member of your team and how well you can work together to implement it. <b>Experience</b> is how well you know the gaming environment, how well you know the units and upgrades and how well you know your team's strengths and weaknesses (and your enemy if possible). <b>Flexibility</b> Is how well a team member and the team as a whole can respond to elements that interfere (this could be to your benefit) with your original goal and strategy (both teams' mistakes and the other team's tactics).
Scripting can probably be laid to rest on this one.
[Edit] Yeah you're right Router, I think the cyberathlete dig's better left out of this thread. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Crispy, I'm glad you finally see the light. Sorta like Plato's cave.
But honestly, you are one of like 100 posts in this forum where the exact same conclusions are reached. God knows I've argued about it, it was argued about it by clanners of old back in the day, it was done in the vet forums, it was done since... 2.01?
Why it is re-occur is unknown. But I don't know what is more sad, the fact that people can't learn from other's examples, or that there is an army of clanners willing to write small essays just to convince one person. <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/nerd-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
No but seriously, read what I quoted... and compare it to what you wrote on the first page. It's amazing what a little education can do, no?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Why it is re-occur is unknown.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->This simply proves my argument about not enough communication of these points to the general public.*, which was actually one of the two main points of the thread, the other being to educate the uneducated.
In a way I have been playing devil's advocate in this thread. While I suspected that bunnyhopping and scripting weren't the evil of all evils (judging by following some competitive players threads and reading a lot on the LM forums), I didn't know the specifics of why this was. I think that playing devil's advocate has helped develop the responses of the competitive community while also personifying some of the 'newbie' community's doubts.
All of this information is available. If people want to know how to bunny hop, or pistol script, they can seek out the information. The problem isn't a lack of information, its the people that don't go to find it, and are happy to fling around excuses for why they got owned.
<!--QuoteBegin-Router Box+Jun 16 2005, 10:25 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Router Box @ Jun 16 2005, 10:25 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> All of this information is available. If people want to know how to bunny hop, or pistol script, they can seek out the information. The problem isn't a lack of information, its the people that don't go to find it, and are happy to fling around excuses for why they got owned.
EDIT: yeah... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Own them on BS_1 servers more often...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Own them on BS_1 servers more often... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But that would be logical! The people blaming scripts aren't logical in the first place. All you garner is more rubbish excuses. The people interested in learning will find ways to learn. The rest of the rubbish will continue screaming. How long has this pattern been going on? Long time.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> All of this information is available. If people want to know how to bunny hop, or pistol script, they can seek out the information. The problem isn't a lack of information, its the people that don't go to find it, and are happy to fling around excuses for why they got owned. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Woodstock the Lerk+Jun 16 2005, 06:07 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Woodstock the Lerk @ Jun 16 2005, 06:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Own them on BS_1 servers more often... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But that would be logical! The people blaming scripts aren't logical in the first place. All you garner is more rubbish excuses. The people interested in learning will find ways to learn. The rest of the rubbish will continue screaming. How long has this pattern been going on? Long time.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> All of this information is available. If people want to know how to bunny hop, or pistol script, they can seek out the information. The problem isn't a lack of information, its the people that don't go to find it, and are happy to fling around excuses for why they got owned. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Router got it right. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Logic is overated TBH.
Comments
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Right I guess he should have realized that euros cry and quit when they lose. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, he should've realized that the Euro scene is smaller and less active than the american one, especially amongst the lesser skilled clans. While the European top clans are pretty much always around looking for practices, the new clans only play once in a while and can be hard to find for other newer clans.
But hey, let's all be ignorant ****wits like you -- it's so much more fun. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
QFT.
This will start a flame war- but at the end of this day, this is nothing more than a gaming forum.
Here goes.
The Americans have a tendancy to believe that nothing else exists outside of their country. The competitive scene in the U.S. may be fine, but it's a huge problem in the EU. And just because the problem doesn't exist in the U.S., doesn't mean that the problem doesn't exist at all.
(As another example, I remember seeing a thread entitled "Demos of the best teams in the world". It was only an exi/terror CAL demo, where neither team had the ability to finish off the other team. But my point is that the poster assumed his countries players are <i>so</i> much better than those he doesn't know about.
It can't happen, but I'd love to see exi play knife with even pings. Of course, I could just quote the last NA-EU match (3-1 to us, kthx) but I'm sure you can explain that one away)
I look forward to your responses! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You could also remember when sYn dominated the globe and the euros were making excuses. But you probably weren't even around then.
Most of them were outright pathetic.
- having information out there that is written by or at least officially endorsed by the creators of a game, so that players know that this is pertinent information tha they should take on board
or
- having no information whatsoever on the effectiveness/importance/allowance of advanced techniques like bunnyhopping, mid-jump air control, pistol scripts, mousewheelbinds, custom sprites and many more aspects of the game that give rise to such heated debates as this, and leave a player who might be thinking about playing NS competitively wondering who is right, wth is going on and whether it's really worth the bother.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
NSlearn was never officially endorsed. They their counter part NSguides who only started to do things AFTER official recognition was cut loose, we acomplished more in a month then they have in all of their time (yes this includes the first NSguides as well). This is one the reasons I took it down.
So that information was never endorsed by the dev team. Quite frankly I don't have sympathy for new players in the competitive scene. I learned the ins and outs of the game by exploring the game by myself, there were no resources when I started playing.
gg and fae are good teams, I know alot of the guys who play for both and they should have no problem doing well in cal, either this season or next. Tell me FAT or on|e tied a team of the calibur of slot1 and I would be owned, but gg and fae prove nothing. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
The fact that FaE comes from a horrible 28 man server full of complete retards amazes me. If you ever play with them you would have never thought they would have come from that horrid server and become such good players. All of FaE had never played competitive ns in their lives and then got some of the best players from their horrid server and took 3rd seed, that is very very hard to do.
Gj FaE, and Gl
The competative scene only seems to be dieing because top tier teams are breaking up. Fact of the matter is, we have more active teams in CAL than (I believe) ever before. NS isn't dieing, its evolving. The reason we can't have multiple leagues is because of the small amount of clans willing to try. Right now we have about 30 teams. Nowhere near enough to have a third division, let alone different conferences.
A lot of new clans play one scrim, usually against a delta team because they're the only ones that scrim most of the time, get owned and break up. You can never base an entire game on one scrim, especially against a team that plays as much as delta clans do.
There <i>is</i> an advantage resulting from higher pings. But only if you're used to playing with them. Read up on how servers detect hits and misses, then think about it. If a player with low ping rounds a corner, a player with high ping can hit him even though they haven't seen him yet. When the low ping player goes back around the corner, the high ping player can keep hitting him until the player leaves his screen. Anyone who thinks that is not an advantage if the player is used to it isn't using his brain mass.
Today's top players spent the time and energy learning about NS and tweaking their setups. Does it give them an advantage? Maybe. Does it give them an <i>unfair</i> advantage? No. Plain and simple.
Those "gamma hax" can be setup from the in-game menu.
The "uber leet bhop script" Isn't a bunnyhop script. Its a jump script. All it does (like router said) is send multiple jump commands to the server so the jump is easier to time. Even with a jump script, it takes many HOURS and HOURS of practice to master it. Bunny hopping doesn't make you a better skulk at all. All it does is allow players to get to ambush spots a little bit faster.
That "pistol script hax" can be done without a script. Most players <i>can</i> hit the cap on RoF for the pistol without a script. Players use pistol scripts as a convenience.
gg and fae are good teams, I know alot of the guys who play for both and they should have no problem doing well in cal, either this season or next. Tell me FAT or on|e tied a team of the calibur of slot1 and I would be owned, but gg and fae prove nothing. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The fact that FaE comes from a horrible 28 man server full of complete retards amazes me. If you ever play with them you would have never thought they would have come from that horrid server and become such good players. All of FaE had never played competitive ns in their lives and then got some of the best players from their horrid server and took 3rd seed, that is very very hard to do.
Gj FaE, and Gl <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
FaE Rules
Talk about a team that came out of nowhere and rocked everything on nothing but their own merit.
Example:
<a href='http://www.markettrak.com/safety.gif' target='_blank'>http://www.markettrak.com/safety.gif</a>
CS:
<a href='http://www.latin-focus.com/content/countries/chl_gifs/chlstocks.gif' target='_blank'>http://www.latin-focus.com/content/countri...s/chlstocks.gif</a>
Its funny how CAL-O CS has I think I counted around 1000 clans.
Yeah sure you have the high-level teams that either are exceptionally good or have been together a long time (eg knife/levi/bs/<3) that scrim as often as they can, are fairly consistent etc and generally make the scene look good.
Then you have the mid to top level teams in the background which is where the scene is falling apart.
You have clans folding and being created all the time, player recycling is rampant as players try to find a good stable roster to play with. In short, you have the likes of #final.ns, #cute.ns, #plan-b.ns, #kec etc etc
That is where the scene is dying, and that is where it needs to change. These clans are fairly good in terms of raw talent but dont practise as much as they could.
Then you have the bottom teams who are mostly pub clans that decide to start playing competetively - and they get dicked every pcw either by knife and levi because they play so much and are so good, or by the mid-level teams such as config or reddog who have the talent advantage to carry them through when their teamwork isn't up to scratch.
Scripts :
They make such an incredibly miniscule difference if you actually know what the **** you're talking about that it's not a topic worth talking about in the context of competetive play.
Fair enough the US players see it for what it is - the next step in customizing your control setup, whilst 99% of euro players scream 'hax' as loud as they can and try to ignore the fact that they're just looking for an excuse as to why they lose.
Far worse a problem in this context is that of connection rates. I cannot tell you the number of times I have emptied 35+ lmg rounds into a skulk at point blank (and I can tell when a skulk should be dead) and only 6 or so register, and you get wasted.
I refer you to the knifegaming 'spaniards.avi' video.
I know I personally get so frustrated when this happens and everybody I play with just takes it for granted that im 'whining' because I died. The thing that gets me is not that I died, it's that I know that on a LAN that skulk would be dead 3 times over.
The amount of times I've checked my match demos only to find player after player with
rate 9999
cl_updaterate 20
it takes the ****.
There's a big difference between the clan scene being in decline because people 'cry when they lose' and when people genuinely get so hacked off with losing game after game which they kow they should have won, or would have done on LAN.
It really is a sad day for NS when crappy rates > skill
At the high level, there need to be enough clans of equal ability to blur the lines between who occupies which position in the pecking order. With a small number of teams on top of the market the scene gets stale rather quickly. There aren't enough players to feed the system. The top level is fed by the success of your low level system - get more players involved and the ladder will feed itself. See next paragraph.
On the low end, you need a massive amount of teams of all skill levels to interact with each other, and <i><b>you need an easy and effective way to get them together</b></i>. IRC is difficult and mysterious. It impedes the process of getting players of less dedication together to form teams and play each other formally. A new player with his new group of friends has NO CLUE how to even find other teams to play against, multiplied by the small number of them in existence making it more difficult. Give them a place to create a community that automatically includes them. (Load up NS, get automatically connected to a chat channel that incorporates team management, stats, and rankings. This needs to be robust, but more importantly, a player needs to be involved in this without any initial effort; frankly, it has to cater to the idiots by involving them regardless of their inability to even configure their own controls. Then build up from there with features for the competents.) This could be what the new Nexus thing is, I honestly don't know; had there been something like this from the start the game and community would be drastically different right now, for the better.
The Cliff Notes:
You need WAY more players than you have now (re: how many CS players are there on servers at any given time that aren't involved in the serious competitive scene? Lots. Only a certain portion of a game's playerbase are cut out for competitive play, the ratio being roughly determined by a game's complexity and involvement (translation: extremely high for NS). See second sentence of post.
Make it easy for players to form teams and arrange matches. Chat channels, team organization, rankings, and servers for teams to play scrims on (extremely important and seriously lacking right now). Integrate, integrate, simplify, simplify.
Edit: In my haste I forgot a very important and obvious problem: combat. Combat is absorbing all of the fresh blood and conditioning them to expect something that the REAL game is not about in any way, shape, or fashion. Combat teaches? Not the right things... a new player who plays combat learns to expect to: spawn rapidly, be able to die with no repercussions, rush into situations with no thought or preparation, expect the equipment of his choice to be provided to him instantly upon every spawning, make upgrade choices which are totally bogus, be able to choose cloaking immediately and play the alien side with no skill, ability, or planning, not follow orders, not work with his teammates, not develop situational awareness, not learn the value of resources, not learn the value of territory control, not learn the value of investments such as structures and hives, have the game resolve itself within fifteen minutes, be able to run faster than normal, have more hps than intended, recharge energy limitlessly, charge infinitely, obtain self-welding armor that can also go beyond standard quantities, obtain scans automatically without any knowledge at all of enemy presence, evolve endlessly with no regard for situation or strategy, be able to xeno every life with no thought or effort into playing the game normally, not parasite marines, not scout for enemies, not use any communication about match development, recieve ammunition and health from the commander immediately and precisely in all situations, not learn how to build structures, not learn how to place mines properly... I'm not done but I have a headache and am in serious need of some sleep right now, so I'll leave it at that. Not the most well-organized list but read through it and ask yourself if, being a brand new player in this world of "gimme now" syndrome: why would you want to play regular NS after being subjected to such a bastardization of the real thing?
What happens when a random 32 player (translation: ridiculous) server goes from a combat map to an NS map? "WTH ns sucks" "who's gonna comm?" "gimme a shotty" "how do i gain levels?" "why aren't i spawning?" "how do i go onos?" "how do i build stuff?" "gimme a jetpack" "i wanna hide in the chair" "make me one too" "WTH i got cloaking but focus doesn't work" "where'd my upgrades go?" "why can't i xeno?"
Please, tell me how this helps the system. Please. I love the game to death and it's killing me to see things go this way. I miss it so much but it's falling apart slowly but surely. You can't cater to both crowds at once without giving something up. Real NS will suffer due to popular demand.
this is true. I have noticed it of a few euros as well; mostly English.
but i have also come across random good people when i never expected it. people who knew what was up. people who got it
I believe CO_ put the emphasis back onto bunny hoping... CO_ is all that is wrong with NS... embodied in a secondary play mode for the Half life modification we all know and love.
But Furious the only thing you taught us was how to spam music loudly in vent
Firstly, scripting. While I have learnt a hell of a lot about scripting, this thread was not a scripting debate, and some forum members seem to have used it as yet another soapbox to air their views on it (I guess they musta missed the 5000 scripting threads via the search function, and the <i>Scripting Forum</i>). That said, I did say that us normal players need some things cleaned up for us so that some of the scripting myths can be laid to rest. I think this thread has so far greatly helped that cause. I myself, and I hope other unenlightened players reading (despite the fact that it's in the <i>Competitive Forum</i>) have gained valuable knowledge about how much scripting is used and to what advantage (it is indisputable that scripting gives an advantage, no matter how small, otherwise nobody would even use them). On to the list...<ul><li><span style='color:white'>There is no bunnyhop script, it's a three-jump script which simply means a little less to think about for a player when bunnyhopping.</span>While I still see it as lazy, I can see that it offers minimal advantage as you still have to concentrate on directing your jumps.</li><li><span style='color:white'>While Blink-Swipe scripts exist, they are not really deemed useful by any decent competitive Fade player.</span>Nuff said, these aren't worth using.</li><li><span style='color:white'>At the very highest level of NS play the most important elements are teamwork, experience and flexibility. These are what set teams apart and scripting at that level has very little to do with this.</span></li></ul>I would argue that this is the case for any team-based game, and it has been my belief for a good few years now. <b>Teamwork</b> deals with how well you can communicate the latest information to every member of your team and how well you can work together to implement it. <b>Experience</b> is how well you know the gaming environment, how well you know the units and upgrades and how well you know your team's strengths and weaknesses (and your enemy if possible). <b>Flexibility</b> Is how well a team member and the team as a whole can respond to elements that interfere (this could be to your benefit) with your original goal and strategy (both teams' mistakes and the other team's tactics).
Scripting can probably be laid to rest on this one.
[Edit] Yeah you're right Router, I think the cyberathlete dig's better left out of this thread.
k, this is the last time i'm going to sit here and read that word.
COMPETITIVE. With a T.
But Furious the only thing you taught us was how to spam music loudly in vent <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
hey now, I also provide important life lessons about blindly clicking on unknown links
Firstly, scripting. While I have learnt a hell of a lot about scripting, this thread was not a scripting debate, and some forum members seem to have used it as yet another soapbox to air their views on it (I guess they musta missed the 5000 scripting threads via the search function, and the <i>Scripting Forum</i>). That said, I did say that us normal players need some things cleaned up for us so that some of the scripting myths can be laid to rest. I think this thread has so far greatly helped that cause. I myself, and I hope other unenlightened players reading (despite the fact that it's in the <i>Competitive Forum</i>) have gained valuable knowledge about how much scripting is used and to what advantage (it is indisputable that scripting gives an advantage, no matter how small, otherwise nobody would even use them). On to the list...<ul><li><span style='color:white'>There is no bunnyhop script, it's a three-jump script which simply means a little less to think about for a player when bunnyhopping.</span>While I still see it as lazy, I can see that it offers minimal advantage as you still have to concentrate on directing your jumps.</li><li><span style='color:white'>While Blink-Swipe scripts exist, they are not really deemed useful by any decent competitive Fade player.</span>Nuff said, these aren't worth using.</li><li><span style='color:white'>At the very highest level of NS play the most important elements are teamwork, experience and flexibility. These are what set teams apart and scripting at that level has very little to do with this.</span></li></ul>I would argue that this is the case for any team-based game, and it has been my belief for a good few years now. <b>Teamwork</b> deals with how well you can communicate the latest information to every member of your team and how well you can work together to implement it. <b>Experience</b> is how well you know the gaming environment, how well you know the units and upgrades and how well you know your team's strengths and weaknesses (and your enemy if possible). <b>Flexibility</b> Is how well a team member and the team as a whole can respond to elements that interfere (this could be to your benefit) with your original goal and strategy (both teams' mistakes and the other team's tactics).
Scripting can probably be laid to rest on this one.
[Edit] Yeah you're right Router, I think the cyberathlete dig's better left out of this thread. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Crispy, I'm glad you finally see the light. Sorta like Plato's cave.
But honestly, you are one of like 100 posts in this forum where the exact same conclusions are reached. God knows I've argued about it, it was argued about it by clanners of old back in the day, it was done in the vet forums, it was done since... 2.01?
Why it is re-occur is unknown. But I don't know what is more sad, the fact that people can't learn from other's examples, or that there is an army of clanners willing to write small essays just to convince one person. <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/nerd-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
No but seriously, read what I quoted... and compare it to what you wrote on the first page. It's amazing what a little education can do, no?
In a way I have been playing devil's advocate in this thread. While I suspected that bunnyhopping and scripting weren't the evil of all evils (judging by following some competitive players threads and reading a lot on the LM forums), I didn't know the specifics of why this was. I think that playing devil's advocate has helped develop the responses of the competitive community while also personifying some of the 'newbie' community's doubts.
EDIT: yeah...
EDIT: yeah... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Own them on BS_1 servers more often...
Own them on BS_1 servers more often...
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But that would be logical! The people blaming scripts aren't logical in the first place. All you garner is more rubbish excuses. The people interested in learning will find ways to learn. The rest of the rubbish will continue screaming. How long has this pattern been going on? Long time.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> All of this information is available. If people want to know how to bunny hop, or pistol script, they can seek out the information. The problem isn't a lack of information, its the people that don't go to find it, and are happy to fling around excuses for why they got owned.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Router got it right.
Own them on BS_1 servers more often...
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But that would be logical! The people blaming scripts aren't logical in the first place. All you garner is more rubbish excuses. The people interested in learning will find ways to learn. The rest of the rubbish will continue screaming. How long has this pattern been going on? Long time.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> All of this information is available. If people want to know how to bunny hop, or pistol script, they can seek out the information. The problem isn't a lack of information, its the people that don't go to find it, and are happy to fling around excuses for why they got owned.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Router got it right. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Logic is overated TBH.