Tremulous, and why you shouldn't bother
Speed_2_Dave
Join Date: 2002-11-15 Member: 8788Members
Join Date: 2002-11-15 Member: 8788Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Watch how fast this gets locked!</div>The reason why I'm posting this at all is that it is in the list of top 100 games of 2006 on moddb.com. As we're directed to go there, I figured I'd at least check out the competition. I saw a game called Tremulous and it looked fun. The following is what I've posted in every forum where I talk with other gamers.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If any of you have been looking for a "more fun" version of NS, I do NOT recommend Tremulous. It's fairly similar to NS. Heck, even skulking is easier. The lowest level aliens bite automatically if they get in contact with an enemy! Genius!
Unfortunately, the manual is incomplete, with 3 pages of technical information, 5 about the upgrades, and NOTHING about strategy or gameplay. I figured I could pop into a game and get some help. Nope! All 3 servers I tried to play were filled with people who screamed "RTFM" every time I asked a simple, one sentence question. For example "how many hitpoints does xxx have? How much damage does xxx do?" I got RTFM as my answer, every time. The manual doesn't have those answers. Even their website doesn't have these answers!
It might be a fun game, I don't know, but I do <b><i>NOT</i></b> like it when I get yelled at to read something I already have that didn't help.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
[edit]Someone has already posted what I figured they'd post. I agree, If I'm busy in a game, I won't necessarily help people much. But when neither the <b>MANUAL</b> nor the <b>WEBSITE</b> has any information about the details of the game, I consider this a problem, especially if the playerbase is unfriendly.[/edit]
[edit2]I also would like to point out I spent a fair amount of time in the game. The only strategy that seemed to work for me as alien was to get 5 "points" by killing (sometimes you don't get points for killing, don't know why or what affects that) and morph into their tank, which is a walking target. As human I just played with the flamethrower *glee*
however, I never figured out anything too terribly useful, and after watching them berate the "n00bs" who tried their hand at building bases, I never even risked it. Asking for information from their IRC channel proved much more useful. Sadly, it was too little too late for my opinion about this game. Maybe after the next major update I'll try it again. <a href="http://tremulous.net/" target="_blank">Linkeh</a>[/edit2]
[edit3]<a href="http://tremulous.net/manual/" target="_blank">Manual can be found here. It's sort of useful, but not on specifics.</a> Sorry, people kept bringing up the manual. This is what I had to go off of when I started playing the game.[/edit3]
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If any of you have been looking for a "more fun" version of NS, I do NOT recommend Tremulous. It's fairly similar to NS. Heck, even skulking is easier. The lowest level aliens bite automatically if they get in contact with an enemy! Genius!
Unfortunately, the manual is incomplete, with 3 pages of technical information, 5 about the upgrades, and NOTHING about strategy or gameplay. I figured I could pop into a game and get some help. Nope! All 3 servers I tried to play were filled with people who screamed "RTFM" every time I asked a simple, one sentence question. For example "how many hitpoints does xxx have? How much damage does xxx do?" I got RTFM as my answer, every time. The manual doesn't have those answers. Even their website doesn't have these answers!
It might be a fun game, I don't know, but I do <b><i>NOT</i></b> like it when I get yelled at to read something I already have that didn't help.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
[edit]Someone has already posted what I figured they'd post. I agree, If I'm busy in a game, I won't necessarily help people much. But when neither the <b>MANUAL</b> nor the <b>WEBSITE</b> has any information about the details of the game, I consider this a problem, especially if the playerbase is unfriendly.[/edit]
[edit2]I also would like to point out I spent a fair amount of time in the game. The only strategy that seemed to work for me as alien was to get 5 "points" by killing (sometimes you don't get points for killing, don't know why or what affects that) and morph into their tank, which is a walking target. As human I just played with the flamethrower *glee*
however, I never figured out anything too terribly useful, and after watching them berate the "n00bs" who tried their hand at building bases, I never even risked it. Asking for information from their IRC channel proved much more useful. Sadly, it was too little too late for my opinion about this game. Maybe after the next major update I'll try it again. <a href="http://tremulous.net/" target="_blank">Linkeh</a>[/edit2]
[edit3]<a href="http://tremulous.net/manual/" target="_blank">Manual can be found here. It's sort of useful, but not on specifics.</a> Sorry, people kept bringing up the manual. This is what I had to go off of when I started playing the game.[/edit3]
Comments
I'm not a particularly nasty person but I won't waste my time explaining a game to players in-game. If you caught me in-game I guess I'd make you hate that game, too.
Personal opinion, Tremulous is what NS:C should be. It's quick and relatively mindless, for the most part; centered entirely on deathmatchy play. The controls aren't exactly that hard to learn, and the system is balanced nearly wholly on player skill (well, aside from Lucifer-spam-bug cheating idiots). Sure there are some pretty glaring problems, but most of them are being dealt with.
Woot hatchies.
I've tried Tremulous and didn't mind it, but the art style didn't grab me like NS did.
I'd rather help people and have fun than pretend I'm better than anyone or anyone is below the importance of my "LEET SKILLZ". Admittedly in most games this isn't a problem though; I type really fast :3
ps: the game fails.
not tried Tremulous but I always try and help new people to the game or anyone who has questions. I've never understood the whole "I HAVE NO TIME TO HELP YOU!!! I AM TOO BUSY TAKING SOMETHING I PLAY FOR FUN SERIOUSLY".
I'd rather help people and have fun than pretend I'm better than anyone or anyone is below the importance of my "LEET SKILLZ". Admittedly in most games this isn't a problem though; I type really fast :3
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Before I delve into my post that many will find obnoxiously long, I understand your point. I do sometimes help players in-game. However, there is a limit.
Players are often lazy. Just try playing a game of The Specialists to see how lazy players are. I read manuals to just about everything I own or use. I enjoy doing that, and it's a big help in understanding how to use something. Some players don't want to bother reading the manual, yet want me - the player who has read the manual - to hold his or her hand through the game? No. Not going to happen. I don't coddle lazy players. If the answer is in the manual, then the player should know the answer. I'm pretty strict on this: there isn't really any excuse for a player to not have already read the manual before playing the game, and if he or she neglects to read the guide, he or she should understand that the game will be totally confusing. If that can be accepted, and no questions are asked by the player on how to play the game, I can abide by that player logging on while oblivious. However, simple, pure laziness is not acceptable. I don't have time for that player.
Does that make me an elitist? Perhaps to those who aren't willing to read the manual, yes. Let me make it clear that I don't mind helping players out who do seem willing to learn. It's relatively easy to differentiate between the well-read and the purposely ignorant players.
I also want to comment on your paragraph comparing experienced player's entertainment level with that of a new user. The way a player is entertained, and the level of immersion required to obtain said entertainment, is something personal and can't be determined or judged by any other person. Each player is going to be entertained differently and at different levels. To consider the fun level of one player who takes the game less seriously than another as being somehow more credible or authentic is being unfair to and biased against the player who finds more immersion necessary to remain content. It is fine and in many cases laudable to help new players out in the game. However, it is not unacceptable nor unsportsmanlike to want to play the game without being interrupted with guiding a new player who was unwilling or incapable of understanding the manual. The manual was made to answer the questions. It's not the job of the playerbase to educate new users.
As for this game, if there is little information nor a manual on the website, it is the developer who has failed the playerbase, not those who are more experienced.
Take, for example if you will, when I buy a PSP game. Now, if I'm up down for a long time, I'll normally take the PSP with me, but to kill boredom. When I first buy a new game (yes, I'm one of the "old school" who actually buy their games...), even though I've got the system in my pocket, I'll still take the game to the local coffee house, sit down with a nice long coffee, and have a good poke through the manual. This applys not only to my PSP, but to ANY game that I buy, especially Xbox360 games. Not only does this save time when you get home, so you can play as soon as possible, but it saves confusion with regards to RPGs especially.
I don't know if NS has a manual now, but the 1.0x one was horribly useless for ingame help. It was really nice fiction (a handbook for TSA rookies) but it simply didn't help enough for when you actually got in the game. I suppose that when I started, it barely mattered seeing as how everybody was on equal footing, but I suppose that a newcomer will just be overwhelmed with the complexity of the game.
I've even got into arguements <b>in</b> games because of my helpful nature. The most classic and ironically a perfect example of what usually happens can be found in WoW; I was on general chat answering questions and helping people out. All of a sudden I get a PM from someone telling me to shut up and stop clogging up general chat.
After explaining to him that by answering questions in general I was helping more people (you often get people wondering the same things but not asking, or asking a couple of seconds later if you do it all by PM) he calmed down a bit and much to my amusement he ended up needing help from me not much later and was very thankful :3
He was the only person that complained on that day. in City of Villains I had three people 'battling' with me but they eventually succumbed when pretty much everyone else on the server told them they were being jackasses.
I do read the manuals for games but I don't really hold any grudge against anyone who doesn't; most games seem to be designed with the idea you're not going to read the manual these days and some manuals have horrible spoilers (grrrr) in them. There's often all kinds of useful things that seem to be absent from manuals as well and in some extreme cases I've even seen moves printed wrong or details out of date so they're completely and utterly incorrect (read the city of heroes manual for a giggle; specifically the entry for 'telekinesis' which reads like group fly but was changed many years ago to be a sorta attack control abililty :p ).
Quite frankly though, if you don't want to help a player then don't. I'd rather people remained silent than shout "RTFM NOOB" or whatever; that's just crass.
Of course, I assume we're all talking about people who are fairly nice about asking questions rather than loudmouths or jerks who scream "HOW THE F*** DO I PLAY THIS SH1TZ???!>!>>!??!"... I don't help them either and usually ignore them until they go away. That or I 'educate' them depending on my mood :p
People seem to really believe the manuals answer every question. Hell, SWG doesn't even have a manual. You just have to figure things out (don't even bother trying the help system). WoW does have a great manual and online help, but it can be difficult to find what you're looking for, and some questions just can't be answered by the manual (like, "what does QQ mean?" or "What does BRD stand for and what quests are for it?").
Speaking of which, what <b>does</b> QQ mean? I see people saying it on the WOW forums over and over.
You'll often see it used in the term "QQ MORE NUB" which roughly translates to "Cry more" in response to someone complaining or being percieved as 'whining'. I guess a more elegant way of putting it is "I have no sympathy for you nor your plight" :3
Much more picturesque.
People seem to really believe the manuals answer every question. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Those who have read the manual know when a question asked is one answered in the manual. In those cases, the player likely didn't take the time in reading the manual.
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Quite frankly though, if you don't want to help a player then don't. I'd rather people remained silent than shout "RTFM NOOB" or whatever; that's just crass.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, there are more polite ways of saying that, but telling them to read the manual really isn't impolite.
If a player asks a question, and I answer that question, I take time out of my game to help a player who found it more important for himself to be entertained than for me to continue playing the game I learned how to play. If I don't answer it, the player then ends up getting upset at me, feeling entitled to an answer that I have no obligation to give. If I tell them it's in a manual, I provide an answer so they'll stop asking the same question over and over again, and I can get back to my game again.
After answering the same question over and OVER again - or even worse, answering them and then having to repeat myself because said lazy players are too lazy to even read the console! - I've gotten tired of doing the work for the lazy ones. Remember the fable about the grasshopper and the ant? I'm the ant, who has tired of hand-holding the children who find their time too important to spend five minutes reading a manual, but think it's A-OK to spend the same amount of time <i>demanding</i> a response to his or her question in-game.
Now don't get me wrong. I don't avoid every question. I'm not a grump who won't help anyone. The manual <b>doesn't</b> answer everything. <b>However, that gives no excuse to the players who don't read the manual</b>. If a manual is provided, the player should be willing to read it or play the game oblivious. If a question asked is in the manual, the player should already know the answer, because he or she should have already read the manual. Therefore, the question should likely not even be asked, since the player knows where the answer to the question is already.
The manual is an interesting thing though... I don't really think people should have to read the manual; after all you don't have to read a manual to enjoy a film. Rather, I think a better idea is for games to have a small, compulsory training course that you need to do; an interactive introduction for an interactive medium :D
Ideally the course could easily be run or even bypassed by players who know what they're doing without even taking any time at all while those who aren't familiar would need to learn all the facets they do not know to 'escape' it :p
Obviously the course would only have to be forced the first time you run it but I think it'd help.
The "no res" alien, the dretch is actually very small and fast to facilitate it's place as the hit and run creature. At long range most guns do not even have the accuracy to hit them. They are also blindingly fast, so the automatic attack is a good thing. Their main weaknesses are their minimal health (which means at close range they die very fast) and their weak bite (which means you will really need a bite to the head to do large damage.)
The basalisk is bigger and slower then the dretch. In extended combat it can be expected to die quite often. However, they are the anti-rambo alien. If a basalisk touches a marine, he becomes frozen in place and can not move or turn. If you are alone and a basalisk attacks your back, you will be stuck there until you are gnawed to death. Even worse, advanced forms can poison you, which is death if you are far away from home and have no medikit.
The marauder has enough health and damage to survive a skirmish, and it's wall-bounding ability can make it hard to hit. When upgraded, it shoots deadly chain lighting which is the perfect way to dismantle marine turret farms!
The dragoon is large and mean. It's melee attack will gut even armored marines quite rapidly and it can leap in order to take an enemy by suprise. However, it is quite slow otherwise when it is not doing this. It has plenty of health but it is still weaker then the tyrant, which means if caught flat-footed guns like the hyperblaster can kill it quite quickly. When upgraded it can shoot thorns, but these can be quite hard to use correctly.
The tyrant has no upgrade, as it should be. it is the Onos of trem. It is large, has massive health which it regenrates at a rapid pace, and even helps nearby aliens recover faster. Even a battlesuit won't last long in front of those trash compacter claws. One or two can be handled by concentrated firepower, but a large group can not be killed by any means, except maybe couching behind your tesla coils and begging for mercy.
While each alien is "more effective" as you pay more frags, each one also has a special ability that you can use in order to "level the field" as it were. This is in high contrast to marines who are basically reliant on their pocketbook and getting a less expensive weapon or equipment is seldom a good idea. This in itself is because when an alien gets a frag, regardless of what he just killed, he only gets one frag and the alien that did the most harm gets the frag. When marines kill an enemy, each alien has a "bounty" that is split between every marine that helps with the kill regardless of how little damage they do. This means that marines gain more by working as a cohesive unit, while an alien will get more resources alone. That said, there is still safty in numbers.
The manual is an interesting thing though... I don't really think people should have to read the manual; after all you don't have to read a manual to enjoy a film.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, no: but in most cases, a film must present its plot on the screen by the end of its running time. Otherwise, the movie is considered a failure in presenting its plot. The same would be true of a game that didn't tell players how it is to be played before the player begins playing it.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Rather, I think a better idea is for games to have a small, compulsory training course that you need to do; an interactive introduction for an interactive medium <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
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Well, then it's basically a manual then, isn't it? Half-Life did this well: then again, I still read the manual.
I'm not a supporter of bypassing the training stages the first time through, though. If that training stage were to be in place of a manual, I would want every player to have to play it before starting the game. Again, I don't want to have to tell players how to play the game when the developer has already provided the answers for such questions.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just because I didn't memorize the manual before I jumped into the game doesn't mean I want to ruin everyone's fun just so I can learn to play.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I didn't say one had to memorize the manual. What I said is that once the player has read the manual and grasped what it has to say, one knows one can always return to the manual to get any answers to basic questions, without having to ask anyone else for assistance. Many players avoid reading the manual at all, only to end up needing answers to questions that *are* answered in the manual. They, by not reading the manual, don't know that they can find the answers there: yet, when told such, get upset. Why? Because everyone else did what they should have, and read the manual? How is that the fault of anyone but the player who avoided reading?
Secondly, despite good intentions, one doesn't know how one's actions will be interpreted by others. Some people may get offended by it, and that's their personal problem. Some players may not, and will answer it. Does that make those who don't want to answer it wrong? No, it makes them different: the person asking the question should understand that not everyone wants to have to help them out in the game, especially if the answer can be easily found by the one asking the question (and I'm only speaking of those questions that are easily found).
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Basically, for most instances, it would seem we are in agreement. Where we don't seem to agree as much is how much responsibility each player has in learning how to play the game.
<!--quoteo(post=1589283:date=Dec 16 2006, 08:56 AM:name=Garet_Jax)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Garet_Jax @ Dec 16 2006, 08:56 AM) [snapback]1589283[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
So you've judged the game by that?
I'm not a particularly nasty person but I won't waste my time explaining a game to players in-game. If you caught me in-game I guess I'd make you hate that game, too.
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Even if they're simple questions like "How much hitpoints does <x> have?" or "what does <x> weapon do?", and even if you're dead and waiting for yourself to respawn?
I really see
<!--quoteo(post=1589452:date=Dec 16 2006, 09:16 PM:name=MedHead)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MedHead @ Dec 16 2006, 09:16 PM) [snapback]1589452[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
As for this game, if there is little information nor a manual on the website, it is the developer who has failed the playerbase, not those who are more experienced.
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As far as I've read in the first post, it seems to be the case with this game, a short manual which doesn't explain much.
Fortunately with the case of Natural Selection, even in the 1.0X versions where the manual just only showed stats of aliens and weapons, and provided much background story(<i>in other words, it was useless in terms of helping a new player</i>)...
I've found "cl_autohelp 1" to be extremely useful, it told me that armories gave ammo when you press "E", it told me that pressing "e" on an arms labs did nothing, and it told me what pretty much everything was, and how to build. (Nice job NS team with creating "cl_autohelp 1")
Of course, even with "cl_autohelp 1", it couldn't explain everything, and this is where players come in to the rescue. I didn't know that gorges had their individual resource gain, and that all the other aliens had their own resource gain, so when I went gorge, a couple of people simply said "Get off gorge Petco", and I did. I asked why, and they said "Only one person <i>should</i> be a gorge", and that was good enough for me.
I know there are many whom keep asking more questions about the same thing but I'm sure those people (<i>whom annoy players to death with the "why?" questions</i>) even after you've gave them a simple but 'answering answer' <i>got the answer</i> and you should just ignore them if they apparently still don't get it.
Basically what I'm trying to say is that you should try to *answer newbie's questions in a short and simple way <b>at least</b>, if they still don't get it, just simply ignore them or tell them to read the manual(*<i>If , the manual is actually useful, and not outdated or unfinished, or if there is a manual at all</i>).
*If there is a manual(which actually is useful), you can skip the explaining to newbies and just tell them to read it, though I'd recommend you to at least answer the simple questions like "How much health does <x> have".
[edit]gah, another one. They also said that in the next release they were planning on releasing a more fleshed-out manual.[/edit]
I understand some of you guys tried tremulous recently and were really treated badly. I can't do anything about that but do realize that this is the internet and crappy people do play games. There may be a few on your servers, I don't know. I never encountered this and the only time I told someone to read the manual was when the person was 100% clueless about the game and wanted to know how to change weapons. I also told him how. Yes our manual needs work but everything needs work and people don't agree on whan needs to be in our manual above the basics. It also helps to play a few games alone to iron stuff out.
I also feel inspired, if you will, to try Natural Selection since we're the only ones under a microscope right now. The only thing I want to know is if the only pre-req is owning half life 1 and steam? The non-console fps games I usually play are q3 based.
P.S. You have a nice looking forum and you make nice posts.
<a href="http://tremulous.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=39411#39411" target="_blank">Come see what we are saying.</a>
I own one of the older hl cd's and it works just fine. I assume Steam is for enabling downloaded copys?
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Steam's to play online, basically.
Valve switched their online servers from WON to Steam so without Steam you won't be able to play online.
Not everyone you met in Tremulous is like that. It's just because you were unlucky and met some people who thinks they are "L33T" and think rest of people are "n00bs."
However, not everyone thinks like that. It seems you just went to a wrong server with those weird people around. And you shouldn't judge people like that just because you went to only three servers. That's like saying all Germany people are bad because of Hitler and other crazy lunatics (no offense if you are offended... somehow...)
So please try to understand... not everyone is all idiotic like you say in Tremulous.
Anyways, some of you say it is imbalanced. Well, you should think like that, but not always. It's just because new players want to try humans because they are more basic. But sometimes it's opposite so it's very balanced sometimes. And it's fun. So don't go to conclusion just like that because you met some unhappy strangers...
PS, this is a nice forum <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
I myself tried Tremulous a long while ago and found it floaty and not immersive. It felt like Starsiege: Tribes without jetpacks or HLDM or something. Nothing really had weight or momentum.