3.2b2 release
Cereal_KillR
Join Date: 2002-10-31 Member: 1837Members
Join Date: 2002-10-31 Member: 1837Members
So it's been <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?s=160416968525457792&showtopic=99845&pid=1595896&st=0&#entry1595896" target="_blank">announced</a> that 3.2b2 will be released tomorrow, what do you think of the changes?
I think that the DC limit is going to be quite a blow to aliens, I mean if I read this right (that is, if players are 'entities'), this means that you'd only need only one DC at a given place because any other would be useless (two if there's a lot of entities around to heal)
I understand that having many DC's at a given place does make it a pain to take down, but why nerf it down so much? DC's cost quite a lot to make, and if someone put many DC's down, it's after paying the price for it. I'd rather want to see a limit on the amount a DC can heal a hive, or give sieges the ability to target DC's before the hive, but if aliens build many DC's at a given place, they should have the high ground, just like if there was a turret farm or other expensive investments by any team. It's not like a bunch of DC's are impossible to take down, it's just that it's a <i>defensive</i> structure and isn't supposed to be taken down easily.
The return of the armor bonus is a welcome change, it was very annoying to have drawn-out games when you had three hives.
I love the changes made to the RT's, it's so annoying to take down those marine RT's especially at the end when your energy is getting low, so having 14 bites less to do is quite a relief. Plus, you get more points doing so, so we might actually see people trying to take them down.
I think that the DC limit is going to be quite a blow to aliens, I mean if I read this right (that is, if players are 'entities'), this means that you'd only need only one DC at a given place because any other would be useless (two if there's a lot of entities around to heal)
I understand that having many DC's at a given place does make it a pain to take down, but why nerf it down so much? DC's cost quite a lot to make, and if someone put many DC's down, it's after paying the price for it. I'd rather want to see a limit on the amount a DC can heal a hive, or give sieges the ability to target DC's before the hive, but if aliens build many DC's at a given place, they should have the high ground, just like if there was a turret farm or other expensive investments by any team. It's not like a bunch of DC's are impossible to take down, it's just that it's a <i>defensive</i> structure and isn't supposed to be taken down easily.
The return of the armor bonus is a welcome change, it was very annoying to have drawn-out games when you had three hives.
I love the changes made to the RT's, it's so annoying to take down those marine RT's especially at the end when your energy is getting low, so having 14 bites less to do is quite a relief. Plus, you get more points doing so, so we might actually see people trying to take them down.
Comments
Wonder why its only on the 3rd hive, why not restore the armorbonus in total. ah well
In 3.1, each DC does 10 HP per target per tick.
In 3.2 Beta1 each DC does 10 + 1% HP per target per tick.
In 3.2 Beta2 each DC does 10 + 3% HP per target per tick.
The percentile is of maximum health, ignoring armour.
So in beta2, both players will get an additional 2% hp every tick.
Some other values for the discussion:
Each DC can heal a maximum of 3 entities per tick.
DCs tick every 2 seconds.
One other important point. The DC changes aren't motivated entirely by the strength of DC nests, but also by the relative weakness of lone DCs placed in strategic non-hive locations. We want to see DCs being used in many of the spots aliens currently place useful MCs and SCs.
i like the onos hp but i think he has bigger problems than that.
edit: after reading waht the dev said, im a little confused. he says players will heal faster from dc's except, no you wont because if you are by 3 dc's you are only getting healed by one per tick
10 + 3% < 30 + 9% (or even the old version of 30 + 6%)
and how fast does the hive heal? if you sit at one dc it would take about 10 seconds for a skulk or 1 minute for an onos to fully heal. guess this is better for skulks.
i would like to start seeing dc's first and put by rt's so skulks have a little haven to sit and protect their rt's.
* patching the common forum complaint of aliens being under-powered during later games
But I don't quite understand the DC change... does it mean that you can only be healed by 1 DC at a time? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/confused-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="???" border="0" alt="confused-fix.gif" />
The DC change isnt really as big a nerf as it looks. One DC is now vastly more powerful than before, theres just not an incentive to stack 8 in one spot anymore. Really, I'm fine with that, and I plan to go start placing random DCs around the map as healing nests. The only time you really feel the nerf is when you have 8 DCs stacked behind a Hive, which made it completely invulnerable in 3.2b1 which was kinda stupid. So I'm happy to see that go.
a little confused on the dc move. are they trying to make it that dc's are only made to sit by oc's to heal them?
im sure its much faster now to run to the hive to heal then to sit by 1 dc. strange move.
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It has always, and will always, be faster to run to the hive for healing. The hive does 15% of a players health per second. In 3.1 for an onos you would have needed 20 dcs to outheal the hive, for a fade, you would have needed 10 dcs. In beta1, you would have needed 12 and 8. Nothing heals faster than a hive.
In beta2, you will get 10+3% from a single DC. Which is roughly equivalent to 3 beta1 dcs for high hp lifeforms. It does much the same job, can be built in a third of the time, for a third of the res, can can be healed by a gorge much easier too. This isn't a nerf to dcs, it is a change to dcs.
One downside to the new system is that because a dc can only heal three entities ever 2 seconds, a single DC will not be able to heal a large cluster of alien buildings and players effectively. This is something we will be looking at closely during the testing of beta2.
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10 + 3% < 30 + 9% (or even the old version of 30 + 6%)
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The old (3.1) version was just 10 with no percentile. Beta1 woul dhave been 30 + 3%, so your inequality should be 10+3% < 30 + 3%. Remember that you are comparing 1 DC on the left to three DCs on the right.
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and how fast does the hive heal?
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The hive heals itself 2% every second.
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if you sit at one dc it would take about 10 seconds for a skulk or 1 minute for an onos to fully heal. guess this is better for skulks.
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A little less than 1 minute for an onos, which is about what it took next to three dcs in beta1, and in 3.1 it took around 10 minutes with 3 DCs to heal an onos. DCs 'tick' every 2 seconds, the hive 'ticks' every second.
<!--quoteo(post=1596022:date=Jan 7 2007, 11:21 PM:name=ubermensch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ubermensch @ Jan 7 2007, 11:21 PM) [snapback]1596022[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
Adding 3.1 hive armor bonus at the 3rd hive seems like more of a quick patchwork* to balance complaints from the forum without actually being thought out and tested.
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You're welcome to look at it that way if it pleases you, but I can assure you this isn't the case. We looked at alternatives to giving hive3 aliens enough momentum to quickly finish the game. This option is the one we want to try, for many reasons which I won't go into here, it seems the lowest risk to both game modes. Remember, there's a reason this isn't 3.2 final, we're still taking the time to try out experiments.
On the plus side, it isn't every day we get criticised for listening to our community, so I won't dispute the point with you too much <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
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And the total DC nerfing.. the balance changes are fairly significant and I think will mostly make the games more tedious.
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I think you need to reassess the DC changes if you think it is a total nerf. You're throwing around clusters of DCs like they don't cost any res to build.
This option is the one we want to try, for many reasons which I won't go into here,
it seems the lowest risk to both game modes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hive3 does sound like a good choice for Classic maps. No issue there.
But in general, Why should Classic compromised at all to suit CO balance.
Wouldn't it be more effective to balance them independantly?
<!--QuoteBegin-MrBananaMan+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MrBananaMan)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->and how fast does the hive heal?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The hive heals itself 2% every second.
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I'm reasonably sure thats not true. If you look at a damaged hive while it is healing itself, the % health displayed only changes every 4 or 5 seconds. I'm pretty sure the Hive's self healing is still the 20 HP + no percent rate, that used to be standard Hive healing for everything back in the 2.01 days.
kiddo: Look at the 3.2 changelog. There are many changes to the marine side. Also, in beta2, because RTS have 83% of the 3.1 hitpoints, they will be built in 83% of the time.
ok, so can someone calrify what exaclty hive armor means? and how strong is hive armor 1 compared to 3 hives? i never even knew this was in the game for the longest time, and have been wondering what it actually is for longer.
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for the aliens the value of the armour is dependent on the number of operational hives
at 1 hive armour is worth 2dmg/point
at 2 hive, 2.5dmg/point
at 3 hive, 3dmg/point
<b>HP/Armor</b>
Gestate 200/150
Skulk 70/10, carapace3 70/30
Gorge 150/70, carapace3 150/120
Lerk 125/30, carapace3 125/60
Fade 300/150, carapace3 300/250
Onos 700/600, carapace3 700/950
<a href="http://nsplayer.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=380&st=0" target="_blank">http://nsplayer.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=380&st=0</a>
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?s=2166523325940246016&showtopic=97903" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index....showtopic=97903</a>
hmm so what do we have to do to get you to make alien armor absorb 3 points of dmg at any amount of hives?
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I believe it would involve ######s, an open bar tab, and about 10000 donuts.
So 3.2 beta2 will have 'hive 1 armour' for 0, 1 and 2 hives and 'hive 3 armour' for 3 hives.
There's more to it than just 3hp for each ap. The amount of the total damage diverted to the armour system also changes. Read the manual for the details.
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It's not in the manual.
Absorbtion percentage, (Percentage of damage that hits armor first before health)
"for the aliens this value is again dependent on the number of functioning hives, 70% @ 1 hive, 80% @ 2 hive, 90% @ 3 hives"
It is in that forum post.
<a href="http://nsplayer.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=380&st=0" target="_blank">http://nsplayer.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=380&st=0</a>
thats goofy. my vote is for hive armor 3 at all times.
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good plan buddy
In 3.1 for an onos you would have needed 20 dcs to outheal the hive, for a fade, you would have needed 10 dcs. In beta1, you would have needed 12 and 8. Nothing heals faster than a hive.
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Only 3 dcs worked for one entity before, unless that is what you are getting at. So, this change is soley a buff.
I think getting a 3% heal every 2 seconds on the hive is way overpowered, it should be at least halved for the hive.
I still think that SC needs a buff vs MT.
MT is too effective as a counter to SC.
SCs should nullify the effect of MT within their range, not just if the alien is fully cloaked.
Can a dev clarify the behavior of SC vs MT at the moment because my experiences in 3.2b1 are confusing at best...
In any case, this means the first DC will nullify ONE seige cannon. All further cannons work as normal, and all further DCs are ineffective. I don't see anything wrong with that.
w/r/to DC walls in 3.2b1 with the aliens having a fixed .7 absorption rate its not all that really in terms of nerfing the DC wall cause it wasnt AS hot as it had been in previous incarnations, though thats not to say it hasnt lost a lot of its application with this nerf. (but the point is, DCs are still good regardless so overall its not a nerf puzls gonna give a monkies over).
w/r/to hive3 armour implementation, its a fairly sound move because it gives weaker players a good chance of winning -- its more or less the same for anyone else, they play for the third hive and theyll have more leeway at exploiting their advantage (though they really shouldnt need this bonus itll help in situations Coris was concerned about with bunkering hmg/ha, people like me have never really considered that a problem but dont exactly witness it everyday <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />)
w/r/to 5000 hp RTs, this will probably make the most difference in a 6v6 and marines will probably have to adapt more to res control, but please bear in mind 3.2b1 made nodes a lot easier to defend also, so this may be closer to 3.1 standard than in 3.2b1 -- this will certainly spice things up, though how drastic a change it is well have to wait and see, but taking 14 skulk bites off of rt killing is significant in anyones books <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
w/r/to 950hp onos, ooh beefier onos this has 2 main effects, the first is onos become much stronger vs shotguns + lmgs which will certainly shut up whiners the onos is gonna be a powerhouse to be reckoned with this patch <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> The second perhaps, less obvious significant buff this provides is carapce will give full whack to the onos again which will double up to big big differences in onos health compared to 3.2b1 (like an extra 500 dmg kind of difference between cara onoses, and 950 damage difference between a 3.2b1 vanilla onos and a cara 3.2b2 onos) Except to see onos used a hell of a lot more <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
w/r/t bug fixes yayyyy! <3 some of those were kinda annoying <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->One DC will completely nullify a couple of seiges.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Make <i>marines</i> do the work.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
I kid, I kid.
This is a big one. If all of the damage is the project of a single skulk, then he should be able to finish off that RT without running out of adrenaline. It will save more time for the skulk than a simple 16.7% change implies, and that's hopefully a good thing.
Only 3 dcs worked for one entity before, unless that is what you are getting at. So, this change is soley a buff.
I think getting a 3% heal every 2 seconds on the hive is way overpowered, it should be at least halved for the hive.
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No, there was no limit for the number of DCs healing one entity(before now). You're probably thinking of the fact that 1 DC can only heal 3 entities simultaneously, as of one of the 1.0 patches.
And the hive already got a 3% heal every 2 seconds with 3 DCs there in Beta 1. Now you can do it for the cost of one chamber, but it's also easier for marines to just kill that one chamber.