I think 3.2 is as good as it's going to get without some major changes. In other words, I vote for release with a list for 3.3. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well if they have resigned from making any significant changes, yeah I guess it would make sence just to push it out.
Hell, all it really is, is just telling people to change two entries in their liblist.gam file. game "Natural Selection" version "v3.2.2"
I don't know how many times I've been saying this throughout this thread.... make celerity worth the upgrade. simple as that. I've been saying this over and over. If you want to reduce cost of jps, fine...but dont reduce alien speeds....aliens should counter any changes made to the marines...taking away fade speed and lerks...whats the point? has anybody seriously tried celerity 3.2 beta2? People comment about it, but do they fully understand how slow some classes became? I'm only saying please bring back speeds back into aliens, make celerity worth the upgrade...
what kind of made me sick in a game last night was when i was fading, and i couldnt catch a jp. it was in a straight line and he took me out in a few seconds. never ran into that situation before and thought it was weird.
did they slow down alien speeds? why is a jetpack faster then a fades blink? who is in charge of coming up with these ideas? where is the alien representation on the dev team?
<!--quoteo(post=1601009:date=Jan 22 2007, 06:42 PM:name=MrBananaMan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MrBananaMan @ Jan 22 2007, 06:42 PM) [snapback]1601009[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> why is a jetpack faster then a fades blink? <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Because IT ISN'T
Anybody who watched the ENSL NSCC last night will probably agree that 3.2 is very well-balanced. I personally don't see the issue with JPs. JPs v. 2-hive aliens is fine. If aliens have SC to get focus, then I think if anything, the game is in favour of aliens.
Lerk changes are also good. Theyve not been horribly nerfed at all. I've seen plenty of good 3.2 lerks. Yes they bite less, but thats what theyre supposed to do.
DC and MC both seem to be viable starting chambers. SC starts are still rarer, possibly because they can be easily countered by good comms.
So to answer the topic question. I don't think there are any obvious concerns. So.. Nice one devs <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
(Although there are still a whole heap of polish/minor issues)
<!--quoteo(post=1601002:date=Jan 22 2007, 07:27 PM:name=kiddo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(kiddo @ Jan 22 2007, 07:27 PM) [snapback]1601002[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I don't know how many times I've been saying this throughout this thread.... make celerity worth the upgrade. simple as that. I've been saying this over and over. If you want to reduce cost of jps, fine...but dont reduce alien speeds....aliens should counter any changes made to the marines...taking away fade speed and lerks...whats the point? has anybody seriously tried celerity 3.2 beta2? People comment about it, but do they fully understand how slow some classes became? I'm only saying please bring back speeds back into aliens, make celerity worth the upgrade... <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1601009:date=Jan 22 2007, 07:42 PM:name=MrBananaMan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MrBananaMan @ Jan 22 2007, 07:42 PM) [snapback]1601009[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> what kind of made me sick in a game last night was when i was fading, and i couldnt catch a jp. it was in a straight line and he took me out in a few seconds. never ran into that situation before and thought it was weird.
did they slow down alien speeds? why is a jetpack faster then a fades blink? who is in charge of coming up with these ideas? where is the alien representation on the dev team? <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Speeds for each life form:<ul><li><b>Skulk - Ground speed</b><ul><li>3.1 0 celerity: 290</li><li>3.1 3 celerity: 365</li><li>3.2 0 celerity: 290</li><li>3.2 3 celerity: 365</li></ul></li><li><b>Skulk - Leap speed <!--coloro:red--><span style="color:red"><!--/coloro-->*<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b><ul><li>3.1 0 celerity: 870</li><li>3.1 3 celerity: 1095</li><li>3.2 0 celerity: 870</li><li>3.2 3 celerity: 1095</li></ul></li><li><b>Gorge</b><ul><li>3.1 0 celerity: 170</li><li>3.1 3 celerity: 245</li><li>3.2 0 celerity: 170</li><li>3.2 3 celerity: 245</li></ul></li><li><b>Lerk - Ground speed</b><ul><li>3.1 0 celerity: 175</li><li>3.1 3 celerity: 250</li><li>3.2 0 celerity: 175</li><li>3.2 3 celerity: 250</li></ul></li><li><b>Lerk - Flight speed <!--coloro:red--><span style="color:red"><!--/coloro-->!<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b><ul><li>3.1 0 celerity: 525</li><li>3.1 3 celerity: 750</li><li>3.2 0 celerity: 620</li><li>3.2 3 celerity: 700</li></ul></li><li><b>Fade - Ground speed</b><ul><li>3.1 0 celerity: 240</li><li>3.1 3 celerity: 315</li><li>3.2 0 celerity: 240</li><li>3.2 3 celerity: 315</li></ul></li><li><b>Fade - Blink speed</b><ul><li>3.1 0 celerity: 720</li><li>3.1 3 celerity: 945</li><li>3.2 0 celerity: 720</li><li>3.2 3 celerity: 945</li></ul></li><li><b>Onos - Ground speed</b><ul><li>3.1 0 celerity: 240</li><li>3.1 3 celerity: 315</li><li>3.2 0 celerity: 240</li><li>3.2 3 celerity: 315</li></ul></li><li><b>Onos - Charge speed <!--coloro:red--><span style="color:red"><!--/coloro-->!<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b><ul><li>3.1 0 celerity: 480</li><li>3.1 3 celerity: 630</li><li>3.2 0 celerity: 460</li><li>3.2 3 celerity: 600</li></ul></li></ul><!--coloro:red--><span style="color:red"><!--/coloro--><b>* </b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> - Skulk leap is slower on the first leap, and obviously has a penalty for going straight up. This is the consistent maximum speed I could achieve while multi leaping in a straight line in mid-air.
<!--coloro:red--><span style="color:red"><!--/coloro--><b>! </b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> - Signifies a change between versions.
And, just for the hell of it.
<b>Jetpack - No weapons</b><ul><li>3.1 625</li><li>3.2 625</li></ul>I had dropped my LMG and Pistol for that. Weapons and ammo add a slight slow, which is multiplied while using the jetpack.
So basically without celerity It's impossible for a Lerk to catch up to a JP
And even with hive3 Celerity, there's not much of a gap between em. And hive2 Celerity they are about equal.
Meanwhile, if they start at any distance from each other. Not only can the JP manuver much more easily. But it can fly backwards with an HMG, while the Lerk can't do anything.
<!--quoteo(post=1601037:date=Jan 22 2007, 09:05 PM:name=GreyFlcn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(GreyFlcn @ Jan 22 2007, 09:05 PM) [snapback]1601037[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Balance? <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't know if you saw the shotgun with a small clip speed I edited in before you posted this, but it shows kind of how much of an impact a weapon has on flight speed.
Jetpack with HMG (125/125) and Pistol (10/20) is around 540, etc.
Also I should have noted, all my air movements were in as close as possible to a parallel lline to the ground. Lerk flight up is much slower (3.2 change), and down is much faster. Also jetpacks falling move faster (but have little control).
<!--quoteo(post=1601019:date=Jan 22 2007, 07:16 PM:name=MrBananaMan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MrBananaMan @ Jan 22 2007, 07:16 PM) [snapback]1601019[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> maybe you should check again. no celerity. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> and it STILL ISN'T
<!--quoteo(post=1601055:date=Jan 22 2007, 10:14 PM:name=Jmmsbnd007)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jmmsbnd007 @ Jan 22 2007, 10:14 PM) [snapback]1601055[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> and it STILL ISN'T <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
did you get off yet? you are right if the numbers he posted are correct.
i still know that i blinked straight at a marine flying backwards with a jeptack thinking i could catch him and i didnt. this happened twice within 2 minutes last night.
<!--quoteo(post=1601054:date=Jan 22 2007, 10:14 PM:name=MrBananaMan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MrBananaMan @ Jan 22 2007, 10:14 PM) [snapback]1601054[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> what about gravity in the game? <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Gravity affects them both the same. 800 unit/sec downward speed on a normal sv_gravity setting server.
I wasn't mashing my blink button down. It was with small taps. I had to do as close to a straight line as possible because it's the most accurate reading. Every object is affected by gravity the same - except for a gliding Lerk who (when facing down) gains speed while maintaining control, as opposed to a JP who gains fall speed while losing control.
You're more than welcome to test the speeds out yourself. I did ns_bast for refinery hive - although nothing may be better for viaduct, sv_cheats 1, givepoints a few times, drop 3 MCs, cl_showspeed 1 and have at it.
edit: the only way your scenario with chasing a JP makes any logical sense is if he were much higher than you, and you had to try to catch up with altitude as him. or one of those extralevel co_ servers, which i assume it is not.
<!--quoteo(post=1601056:date=Jan 22 2007, 09:21 PM:name=MrBananaMan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MrBananaMan @ Jan 22 2007, 09:21 PM) [snapback]1601056[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> did you get off yet? you are right if the numbers he posted are correct.
i still know that i blinked straight at a marine flying backwards with a jeptack thinking i could catch him and i didnt. this happened twice within 2 minutes last night. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> And I have outrun jetpackers with no celerity countless times. Maybe you shouldn't be so quick to blame the game for your own faults.
<!--quoteo(post=1601063:date=Jan 22 2007, 10:29 PM:name=Jmmsbnd007)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jmmsbnd007 @ Jan 22 2007, 10:29 PM) [snapback]1601063[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> And I have outrun jetpackers with no celerity countless times. Maybe you shouldn't be so quick to blame the game for your own faults. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
maybe you shouldnt be so quick to get off by picking on people who make mistakes.
i know what happened to me, i jsut dont know how it happened. maybe i swiped the marine back and he went extra fast. also there seems to be no cap for jp speed when flying straight up. i dont have a map to test it past 750 ish though.
I dont know if anybody else knows, but numbers like these can be easily mean little next to nothing. Lerks are slow, even with celerity? (but no way, look at the number??) I say go play beta 2 and catch a jp. People talk a lot on the forums, but I doubt they seriously play beta 2 and those that defend marines, play marines mostly....and now fades... I understand that in 3.2 you want to hive marines a chance even with two hives up...so the cost of this aliens lose two middle classes. Where does this leave aliens? I've been saying this, play aliens 3.2 beta 2 with celerity and compare with 3.1... (both lerks and fades) now you tell me that their is no difference or speeds are fine...
make celerity worth the upgrade! keep the fades and lerks speed the same, but at least with celeirity upgraded make it feel like 3.1.
<!--quoteo(post=1601076:date=Jan 23 2007, 04:59 AM:name=gumhat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(gumhat @ Jan 23 2007, 04:59 AM) [snapback]1601076[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> JPs are basically AWPS, in the right hands (1 or 2 clan members on your team) you can take out the whole alien team so i dunno why they lowered the price of them<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Probably cause when they did, Fades were basically AWPs as well :O
<!--quoteo(post=1601076:date=Jan 22 2007, 08:59 PM:name=gumhat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(gumhat @ Jan 22 2007, 08:59 PM) [snapback]1601076[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> <b>JPs are basically AWPS, in the right hands (1 or 2 clan members on your team)</b> you can take out the whole alien team so i dunno why they lowered the price of them <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Same thing for fades and lerks and onos and shotguns and hmgs... Of course good players are going to make a larger impact. If you put an average person in a jetpack, chances are very good they die quickly if the second/third hive is up. JP cost was lowered because it was a fairly risky alternative to HA.
fighting jetpacks is a skill, and has been since 1.0, where the jetpacks were a damnsight better than they are now. And at 2 hives youre gonna have atleast focus or celerity, if the marines get jetpacks before you get your second hive up then thats tough ish.
And I just have to add: If you're a lifeform, ANY lifeform, without celerity, moving in a STRAIGHT LINE towards a JP / HMG combo, what you're experiencing isn't a lack of balance--its a lack of skill.
If you do that, you should expect to die. Simple as that. If you're a skulk it might still be worth it, because a chance of killing a 25-res unit is worth the risk of losing a 0-res unit. But a Fade or Lerk should, at the very least, be trying to dodge fire rather than blindly running into a gun that can kill you in 2 seconds (Fade) or less than 1 second (lerk).
<!--quoteo(post=1601056:date=Jan 22 2007, 10:21 PM:name=MrBananaMan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MrBananaMan @ Jan 22 2007, 10:21 PM) [snapback]1601056[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> i still know that i blinked straight at a marine flying backwards with a jeptack thinking i could catch him and i didnt. this happened twice within 2 minutes last night. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> why the hell would you do that?
<!--quoteo(post=1601002:date=Jan 22 2007, 07:27 PM:name=kiddo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(kiddo @ Jan 22 2007, 07:27 PM) [snapback]1601002[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> make celerity worth the upgrade. simple as that. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> it is
<!--quoteo(post=1601002:date=Jan 22 2007, 07:27 PM:name=kiddo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(kiddo @ Jan 22 2007, 07:27 PM) [snapback]1601002[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> aliens should counter any changes made to the marines... <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> they can
<!--quoteo(post=1601002:date=Jan 22 2007, 07:27 PM:name=kiddo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(kiddo @ Jan 22 2007, 07:27 PM) [snapback]1601002[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> taking away fade speed and lerks...whats the point? <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> have you played against 3.1 lerks?
<!--quoteo(post=1601002:date=Jan 22 2007, 07:27 PM:name=kiddo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(kiddo @ Jan 22 2007, 07:27 PM) [snapback]1601002[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> has anybody seriously tried celerity 3.2 beta2? <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> probably more than you have
<!--quoteo(post=1601002:date=Jan 22 2007, 07:27 PM:name=kiddo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(kiddo @ Jan 22 2007, 07:27 PM) [snapback]1601002[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> People comment about it, but do they fully understand how slow some classes became? <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> do you?
do i need to mention i was playing co? i wasnt so worried about dying. i usually dont have a problem blinking towards a marine, killing him, and blinking to the hive to heal, if i need it. for some reason reason he WTH pwned me way faster than i expected. it was in a vent so i guess there wasnt much room for me to do anythign but go straight at him.
as for the guy talking about numbers, what he says makes sense. its all relative. what if lerks moved at 605 and jetpacks at 600. lerks would be faster but you arent going to see them catching jetpacks easily. in this game, the difference of 100 isnt a great deal either. you have to remember that marines are ranged and they can usually kill lerks before the time it takes a lerk to reach them is through, ESPCIALLY while the jetpackers are flying away.
<!--quoteo(post=1601080:date=Jan 23 2007, 05:21 AM:name=Underwhelmed)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Underwhelmed @ Jan 23 2007, 05:21 AM) [snapback]1601080[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Same thing for fades and lerks and onos and shotguns and hmgs... Of course good players are going to make a larger impact. If you put an average person in a jetpack, chances are very good they die quickly if the second/third hive is up. JP cost was lowered because it was a fairly risky alternative to HA. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Trick being, the Alien AWPs are weaker in 3.2 than 3.1
<!--quoteo(post=1601094:date=Jan 22 2007, 10:53 PM:name=MrBananaMan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MrBananaMan @ Jan 22 2007, 10:53 PM) [snapback]1601094[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> do i need to mention i was playing co? i wasnt so worried about dying. i usually dont have a problem blinking towards a marine, killing him, and blinking to the hive to heal, if i need it. for some reason reason he WTH pwned me way faster than i expected. it was in a vent so i guess there wasnt much room for me to do anythign but go straight at him. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Your best course of action would've been to not enter the vent then. It would take a very bad marine to manage to miss a fade coming straight at him down a narrow vent. In any case, I fail to see how this would be any different in 3.1 - you still would've died.
"Weaker" is a relative term. Weaker than 3.1 perhaps, but not weakened to the point of being unbalanced against marines. I haven't played too much of 3.2B2, but so far my experience has been positive. I've managed to fade against decent players with a 100 ping disadvantage in a scrim and still not get WTHpwned like some people claim happens all too often now. I think the problem is some people are trying to make the lifeforms fill a role they're not meant to. Lerks are intended as support, moreso in 3.2. Fades can't expect to chase a JP/HMG down a long narrow vent without considerable risk.
<!--quoteo(post=1601108:date=Jan 23 2007, 04:53 AM:name=Underwhelmed)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Underwhelmed @ Jan 23 2007, 04:53 AM) [snapback]1601108[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Your best course of action would've been to not enter the vent then. It would take a very bad marine to manage to miss a fade coming straight at him down a narrow vent. In any case, I fail to see how this would be any different in 3.1 - you still would've died.
"Weaker" is a relative term. Weaker than 3.1 perhaps, but not weakened to the point of being unbalanced against marines. I haven't played too much of 3.2B2, but so far my experience has been positive. I've managed to fade against decent players with a 100 ping disadvantage in a scrim and still not get WTHpwned like some people claim happens all too often now. I think the problem is some people are trying to make the lifeforms fill a role they're not meant to. Lerks are intended as support, moreso in 3.2. Fades can't expect to chase a JP/HMG down a long narrow vent without considerable risk. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yeah but see i do it all the time. its easy as long as there is only one marine. anyways this is not important anymore.
this is mroe on topic:
as for the guy talking about numbers, what he says makes sense. its all relative. what if lerks moved at 605 and jetpacks at 600. lerks would be faster but you arent going to see them catching jetpacks easily. in this game, the difference of 100 isnt a great deal either. you have to remember that marines are ranged and they can usually kill lerks before the time it takes a lerk to reach them is through, ESPCIALLY while the jetpackers are flying away.
and if lerks dont catch them, who will? a better than average fade, and decent skulks which would get destroyed very fast. jetpacks have always put a sense of fear into aliens compared to nothing else that the marines can upgrade or do.
you only need 1 focus bite/swipe on a spored jetpack and as long as you dont try to get them in a room like cargo on tanith its fairly easy to hit them. go for it in acidic or the hallway from cargo to acidic since they cant dodge at all there and you are moving forwards faster than a jetpack is moving backwards if you use leap/blink.
<!--quoteo(post=1601094:date=Jan 23 2007, 01:53 AM:name=MrBananaMan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MrBananaMan @ Jan 23 2007, 01:53 AM) [snapback]1601094[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> it was in a vent so i guess there wasnt much room for me to do anythign but go straight at him. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> oh even better - blinking down a vent without celerity toward a jp flying backwards
-Maximum climb speed for non-celerity lerk, straight upwards: 484 -Maximum climb speed for celerity lerk, straight upwards: 529 -Speed is approximately 529 and ground speed around 400 when flying upwards in ~45° compared to 730 and 524 in 3.1 with a non celerity lerk. -Speed is approximately 565 and ground speed around 430 when fyling upwards in ~45° compared to ~1000 and 750 in 3.1 with a celerity lerk. As you can see from these numbers, the speedgain in 3.2 with celerity over non-celerity is almost non-existent. I tested the speeds approximately by hand, because I couldn't find a way to figure out the heading angle. -Maximum climb speed is too slow in typical climb angles, the speed is reduced too steeply and it drains too much energy to maintain maximum climb speed in 3.2. -The slowness of lerk also creates problems in fulfilling lerk's role. Because lerks must be able to spore, umbra and bite the marines occasionally when they are weak after skulk bites. Supporting by biting is too risky and nearly impossible because of slowness and excessive energy consumption. All of these often require flying to -or very near the marines, which is too risky even with celerity because you can't escape from the situation quickly enough. Which means, that anyone can shoot you down with an lmg.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe its only me, but I think lerks are supposed to kill JPers. In any other case Lerks are supporter. So it was a good change to slow them down, and to limit the climb speed. But look at these numbers and imagine:
You are a Lerk chasing a JPer, hes only a few meters away and shooting at you all the time while hes flying backwards. He let himself fall down and you follow him (of course now you'll be right in his face due to fallspeed. Lets assume you are able to hit him before he flys up again. Now your climbspeed and the "almost-non-existing-celerity-boost" kicks in. The marine already far above, while you are struggling to gain speed again. Best target ever? It's very easy to kill a Lerk now if he has to fly up to something.
I'm not saying it all BS and unbalanced, I just think it's a bit too hard to kill a JP with lerk, especialy because he can shoot you all the time, while you are trying to catch up. And even if you do, its easy to dodge a lerk with jp.
Comments
O'Rly?
I think 3.2 is as good as it's going to get without some major changes. In other words, I vote for release with a list for 3.3. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well if they have resigned from making any significant changes, yeah I guess it would make sence just to push it out.
Hell, all it really is, is just telling people to change two entries in their liblist.gam file.
game "Natural Selection"
version "v3.2.2"
did they slow down alien speeds? why is a jetpack faster then a fades blink? who is in charge of coming up with these ideas? where is the alien representation on the dev team?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because IT ISN'T
Lerk changes are also good. Theyve not been horribly nerfed at all. I've seen plenty of good 3.2 lerks. Yes they bite less, but thats what theyre supposed to do.
DC and MC both seem to be viable starting chambers. SC starts are still rarer, possibly because they can be easily countered by good comms.
So to answer the topic question. I don't think there are any obvious concerns. So.. Nice one devs <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
(Although there are still a whole heap of polish/minor issues)
I don't know how many times I've been saying this throughout this thread.... make celerity worth the upgrade. simple as that. I've been saying this over and over. If you want to reduce cost of jps, fine...but dont reduce alien speeds....aliens should counter any changes made to the marines...taking away fade speed and lerks...whats the point? has anybody seriously tried celerity 3.2 beta2? People comment about it, but do they fully understand how slow some classes became? I'm only saying please bring back speeds back into aliens, make celerity worth the upgrade...
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1601009:date=Jan 22 2007, 07:42 PM:name=MrBananaMan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MrBananaMan @ Jan 22 2007, 07:42 PM) [snapback]1601009[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
what kind of made me sick in a game last night was when i was fading, and i couldnt catch a jp. it was in a straight line and he took me out in a few seconds. never ran into that situation before and thought it was weird.
did they slow down alien speeds? why is a jetpack faster then a fades blink? who is in charge of coming up with these ideas? where is the alien representation on the dev team?
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Speeds for each life form:<ul><li><b>Skulk - Ground speed</b><ul><li>3.1 0 celerity: 290</li><li>3.1 3 celerity: 365</li><li>3.2 0 celerity: 290</li><li>3.2 3 celerity: 365</li></ul></li><li><b>Skulk - Leap speed <!--coloro:red--><span style="color:red"><!--/coloro-->*<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b><ul><li>3.1 0 celerity: 870</li><li>3.1 3 celerity: 1095</li><li>3.2 0 celerity: 870</li><li>3.2 3 celerity: 1095</li></ul></li><li><b>Gorge</b><ul><li>3.1 0 celerity: 170</li><li>3.1 3 celerity: 245</li><li>3.2 0 celerity: 170</li><li>3.2 3 celerity: 245</li></ul></li><li><b>Lerk - Ground speed</b><ul><li>3.1 0 celerity: 175</li><li>3.1 3 celerity: 250</li><li>3.2 0 celerity: 175</li><li>3.2 3 celerity: 250</li></ul></li><li><b>Lerk - Flight speed <!--coloro:red--><span style="color:red"><!--/coloro-->!<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b><ul><li>3.1 0 celerity: 525</li><li>3.1 3 celerity: 750</li><li>3.2 0 celerity: 620</li><li>3.2 3 celerity: 700</li></ul></li><li><b>Fade - Ground speed</b><ul><li>3.1 0 celerity: 240</li><li>3.1 3 celerity: 315</li><li>3.2 0 celerity: 240</li><li>3.2 3 celerity: 315</li></ul></li><li><b>Fade - Blink speed</b><ul><li>3.1 0 celerity: 720</li><li>3.1 3 celerity: 945</li><li>3.2 0 celerity: 720</li><li>3.2 3 celerity: 945</li></ul></li><li><b>Onos - Ground speed</b><ul><li>3.1 0 celerity: 240</li><li>3.1 3 celerity: 315</li><li>3.2 0 celerity: 240</li><li>3.2 3 celerity: 315</li></ul></li><li><b>Onos - Charge speed <!--coloro:red--><span style="color:red"><!--/coloro-->!<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b><ul><li>3.1 0 celerity: 480</li><li>3.1 3 celerity: 630</li><li>3.2 0 celerity: 460</li><li>3.2 3 celerity: 600</li></ul></li></ul><!--coloro:red--><span style="color:red"><!--/coloro--><b>* </b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> - Skulk leap is slower on the first leap, and obviously has a penalty for going straight up. This is the consistent maximum speed I could achieve while multi leaping in a straight line in mid-air.
<!--coloro:red--><span style="color:red"><!--/coloro--><b>! </b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> - Signifies a change between versions.
And, just for the hell of it.
<b>Jetpack - No weapons</b><ul><li>3.1 625</li><li>3.2 625</li></ul>I had dropped my LMG and Pistol for that. Weapons and ammo add a slight slow, which is multiplied while using the jetpack.
<b>Jetpack - Pistol (10/20) & Shotgun (8/16)</b><ul><li>3.1 550</li><li>3.2 550</li></ul>
3.1 625
3.1 625
3.2 625
3.2 625
Lerk - Flight speed
3.1 0 celerity: 525
3.1 3 celerity: 750
3.2 0 celerity: 620
3.2 3 celerity: 700
So basically without celerity
It's impossible for a Lerk to catch up to a JP
And even with hive3 Celerity, there's not much of a gap between em.
And hive2 Celerity they are about equal.
Meanwhile, if they start at any distance from each other.
Not only can the JP manuver much more easily.
But it can fly backwards with an HMG, while the Lerk can't do anything.
Balance?
Balance?
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I don't know if you saw the shotgun with a small clip speed I edited in before you posted this, but it shows kind of how much of an impact a weapon has on flight speed.
Jetpack with HMG (125/125) and Pistol (10/20) is around 540, etc.
Also I should have noted, all my air movements were in as close as possible to a parallel lline to the ground. Lerk flight up is much slower (3.2 change), and down is much faster. Also jetpacks falling move faster (but have little control).
edit: nvm read the stuff wrongn.
maybe you should check again. no celerity.
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and it STILL ISN'T
and it STILL ISN'T
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did you get off yet? you are right if the numbers he posted are correct.
i still know that i blinked straight at a marine flying backwards with a jeptack thinking i could catch him and i didnt. this happened twice within 2 minutes last night.
what about gravity in the game?
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Gravity affects them both the same. 800 unit/sec downward speed on a normal sv_gravity setting server.
I wasn't mashing my blink button down. It was with small taps. I had to do as close to a straight line as possible because it's the most accurate reading. Every object is affected by gravity the same - except for a gliding Lerk who (when facing down) gains speed while maintaining control, as opposed to a JP who gains fall speed while losing control.
You're more than welcome to test the speeds out yourself. I did ns_bast for refinery hive - although nothing may be better for viaduct, sv_cheats 1, givepoints a few times, drop 3 MCs, cl_showspeed 1 and have at it.
edit: the only way your scenario with chasing a JP makes any logical sense is if he were much higher than you, and you had to try to catch up with altitude as him. or one of those extralevel co_ servers, which i assume it is not.
did you get off yet? you are right if the numbers he posted are correct.
i still know that i blinked straight at a marine flying backwards with a jeptack thinking i could catch him and i didnt. this happened twice within 2 minutes last night.
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And I have outrun jetpackers with no celerity countless times. Maybe you shouldn't be so quick to blame the game for your own faults.
And I have outrun jetpackers with no celerity countless times. Maybe you shouldn't be so quick to blame the game for your own faults.
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maybe you shouldnt be so quick to get off by picking on people who make mistakes.
i know what happened to me, i jsut dont know how it happened. maybe i swiped the marine back and he went extra fast. also there seems to be no cap for jp speed when flying straight up. i dont have a map to test it past 750 ish though.
make celerity worth the upgrade! keep the fades and lerks speed the same, but at least with celeirity upgraded make it feel like 3.1.
JPs are basically AWPS, in the right hands (1 or 2 clan members on your team) you can take out the whole alien team so i dunno why they lowered the price of them<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Probably cause when they did, Fades were basically AWPs as well :O
<b>JPs are basically AWPS, in the right hands (1 or 2 clan members on your team)</b> you can take out the whole alien team so i dunno why they lowered the price of them
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Same thing for fades and lerks and onos and shotguns and hmgs... Of course good players are going to make a larger impact. If you put an average person in a jetpack, chances are very good they die quickly if the second/third hive is up. JP cost was lowered because it was a fairly risky alternative to HA.
If you do that, you should expect to die. Simple as that. If you're a skulk it might still be worth it, because a chance of killing a 25-res unit is worth the risk of losing a 0-res unit. But a Fade or Lerk should, at the very least, be trying to dodge fire rather than blindly running into a gun that can kill you in 2 seconds (Fade) or less than 1 second (lerk).
i still know that i blinked straight at a marine flying backwards with a jeptack thinking i could catch him and i didnt. this happened twice within 2 minutes last night.
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why the hell would you do that?
<!--quoteo(post=1601002:date=Jan 22 2007, 07:27 PM:name=kiddo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(kiddo @ Jan 22 2007, 07:27 PM) [snapback]1601002[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
make celerity worth the upgrade. simple as that.
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it is
<!--quoteo(post=1601002:date=Jan 22 2007, 07:27 PM:name=kiddo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(kiddo @ Jan 22 2007, 07:27 PM) [snapback]1601002[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
aliens should counter any changes made to the marines...
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they can
<!--quoteo(post=1601002:date=Jan 22 2007, 07:27 PM:name=kiddo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(kiddo @ Jan 22 2007, 07:27 PM) [snapback]1601002[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
taking away fade speed and lerks...whats the point?
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have you played against 3.1 lerks?
<!--quoteo(post=1601002:date=Jan 22 2007, 07:27 PM:name=kiddo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(kiddo @ Jan 22 2007, 07:27 PM) [snapback]1601002[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
has anybody seriously tried celerity 3.2 beta2?
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probably more than you have
<!--quoteo(post=1601002:date=Jan 22 2007, 07:27 PM:name=kiddo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(kiddo @ Jan 22 2007, 07:27 PM) [snapback]1601002[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
People comment about it, but do they fully understand how slow some classes became?
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do you?
as for the guy talking about numbers, what he says makes sense. its all relative. what if lerks moved at 605 and jetpacks at 600. lerks would be faster but you arent going to see them catching jetpacks easily. in this game, the difference of 100 isnt a great deal either. you have to remember that marines are ranged and they can usually kill lerks before the time it takes a lerk to reach them is through, ESPCIALLY while the jetpackers are flying away.
Same thing for fades and lerks and onos and shotguns and hmgs... Of course good players are going to make a larger impact. If you put an average person in a jetpack, chances are very good they die quickly if the second/third hive is up. JP cost was lowered because it was a fairly risky alternative to HA.
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Trick being, the Alien AWPs are weaker in 3.2 than 3.1
do i need to mention i was playing co? i wasnt so worried about dying. i usually dont have a problem blinking towards a marine, killing him, and blinking to the hive to heal, if i need it. for some reason reason he WTH pwned me way faster than i expected. it was in a vent so i guess there wasnt much room for me to do anythign but go straight at him.
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Your best course of action would've been to not enter the vent then. It would take a very bad marine to manage to miss a fade coming straight at him down a narrow vent. In any case, I fail to see how this would be any different in 3.1 - you still would've died.
"Weaker" is a relative term. Weaker than 3.1 perhaps, but not weakened to the point of being unbalanced against marines. I haven't played too much of 3.2B2, but so far my experience has been positive. I've managed to fade against decent players with a 100 ping disadvantage in a scrim and still not get WTHpwned like some people claim happens all too often now. I think the problem is some people are trying to make the lifeforms fill a role they're not meant to. Lerks are intended as support, moreso in 3.2. Fades can't expect to chase a JP/HMG down a long narrow vent without considerable risk.
Your best course of action would've been to not enter the vent then. It would take a very bad marine to manage to miss a fade coming straight at him down a narrow vent. In any case, I fail to see how this would be any different in 3.1 - you still would've died.
"Weaker" is a relative term. Weaker than 3.1 perhaps, but not weakened to the point of being unbalanced against marines. I haven't played too much of 3.2B2, but so far my experience has been positive. I've managed to fade against decent players with a 100 ping disadvantage in a scrim and still not get WTHpwned like some people claim happens all too often now. I think the problem is some people are trying to make the lifeforms fill a role they're not meant to. Lerks are intended as support, moreso in 3.2. Fades can't expect to chase a JP/HMG down a long narrow vent without considerable risk.
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yeah but see i do it all the time. its easy as long as there is only one marine. anyways this is not important anymore.
this is mroe on topic:
as for the guy talking about numbers, what he says makes sense. its all relative. what if lerks moved at 605 and jetpacks at 600. lerks would be faster but you arent going to see them catching jetpacks easily. in this game, the difference of 100 isnt a great deal either. you have to remember that marines are ranged and they can usually kill lerks before the time it takes a lerk to reach them is through, ESPCIALLY while the jetpackers are flying away.
and if lerks dont catch them, who will? a better than average fade, and decent skulks which would get destroyed very fast. jetpacks have always put a sense of fear into aliens compared to nothing else that the marines can upgrade or do.
Rather than what I said before about limiting both sideways and backwards flight.
To cause it to loses the ability to run away and attack at the same time.
Just the backwards flight would be the minimum needed.
It kinda makes sence too from the way the model is designed.
Since otherwise you'd be barbequing yourself in the back with jetpack flames.
go for it in acidic or the hallway from cargo to acidic since they cant dodge at all there and you are moving forwards faster than a jetpack is moving backwards if you use leap/blink.
it was in a vent so i guess there wasnt much room for me to do anythign but go straight at him.
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oh even better - blinking down a vent without celerity toward a jp flying backwards
-Climb speed:
-Maximum climb speed for non-celerity lerk, straight upwards: 484
-Maximum climb speed for celerity lerk, straight upwards: 529
-Speed is approximately 529 and ground speed around 400 when flying upwards in ~45° compared to 730 and 524 in 3.1 with a non celerity lerk.
-Speed is approximately 565 and ground speed around 430 when fyling upwards in ~45° compared to ~1000 and 750 in 3.1 with a celerity lerk. As you can see from these numbers, the speedgain in 3.2 with celerity over non-celerity is almost non-existent. I tested the speeds approximately by hand, because I couldn't find a way to figure out the heading angle.
-Maximum climb speed is too slow in typical climb angles, the speed is reduced too steeply and it drains too much energy to maintain maximum climb speed in 3.2.
-The slowness of lerk also creates problems in fulfilling lerk's role. Because lerks must be able to spore, umbra and bite the marines occasionally when they are weak after skulk bites. Supporting by biting is too risky and nearly impossible because of slowness and excessive energy consumption. All of these often require flying to -or very near the marines, which is too risky even with celerity because you can't escape from the situation quickly enough. Which means, that anyone can shoot you down with an lmg.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe its only me, but I think lerks are supposed to kill JPers. In any other case Lerks are supporter. So it was a good change to slow them down, and to limit the climb speed. But look at these numbers and imagine:
You are a Lerk chasing a JPer, hes only a few meters away and shooting at you all the time while hes flying backwards. He let himself fall down and you follow him (of course now you'll be right in his face due to fallspeed. Lets assume you are able to hit him before he flys up again. Now your climbspeed and the "almost-non-existing-celerity-boost" kicks in. The marine already far above, while you are struggling to gain speed again. Best target ever? It's very easy to kill a Lerk now if he has to fly up to something.
I'm not saying it all BS and unbalanced, I just think it's a bit too hard to kill a JP with lerk, especialy because he can shoot you all the time, while you are trying to catch up. And even if you do, its easy to dodge a lerk with jp.
My two cent...