I believe that it is absolutely amazing that an entire engine will be written. I think it would be very interesting to see what both Charlie with your previous experience and just seeing all the graphical work that Max has done for the industry. I am definitely excited to see the engine in action. It does sound like it will help out a great deal to create your own engine, I hope that everything works smoother.
I was wondering if you were ready to release any information on how the game would be distributed?
Also since I did notice you brought up GDC, will you be attending GDC Austin in September?
Just take (as you said) other tools from other games (don't be shy)... like Farcry and Unreal. Coz frankly; Hammer is just crabbed like it's gonna hammer your life just to draw a cube. What made the success of Farcry (which is a dumb game) was the maps and the environment quality. Then you discover with Sandbox how they did it. Clearly you come to the conclusion that : the tool made the game.
-Surface (a grid that becomes the ground) would be good and can provide a good basis for alien, biodome style hives or cavern/mine(shaft haha) environment. -Ergonomics: The faster artist can do maps... the better it is...
Well; time has to be shared between making or programming tools/game and making the game itself using the tool(s). When you come to think of it as NS will be shared by the community: Maybe giving more opportunities to the community by enhancing the tools would give the necessary energy to make a hit (damn i'm talking like a manager <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> ) .
Don't get me wrong; it's a good thing to create your own stuff to do things. We always feel better in our own shoes. But you got to do it from A to Z. I know how much energy is needed to 'finish' a project so i got a trick... Just stick on the ceiling of your office a post-it that say "Back to work". So when you get tired and start look at the ceiling after a good "huuuuaaaaaaaahhh!"... <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
Make this engine run on linux if you truly want to generate some awesome community development.
<img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/nerd-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::nerdy::" border="0" alt="nerd-fix.gif" /> Linux nerds like to make cool ######. nerds + cool ###### + NS = super plugins, super maps, extended community life, etc.
I like the GTA4 physics engine the best so far. Everything looked very real: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXXOY2VmWB4" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXXOY2VmWB4</a>
For a name, how about, Compu-Global-Hyper-Mega-Net ?
i must admit, after watching the last videocast, i thought they had changes engines, as they mentioned something about not being able to do it with the source engine but could now, great news <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
Found it he says
"In source we used to use alot of brushes, in this we wont use that many"
Matt ReganJoin Date: 2008-03-23Member: 63946Members, Retired Developer, NS2 Developer
<!--quoteo(post=1683150:date=Jul 11 2008, 05:14 PM:name=Kyle_Katarn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Kyle_Katarn @ Jul 11 2008, 05:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1683150"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i must admit, after watching the last videocast, i thought they had changes engines, as they mentioned something about not being able to do it with the source engine but could now, great news <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
Found it he says
"In source we used to use alot of brushes, in this we wont use that many"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've never really liked the Source engine, so good on you guys! You've given me some creative juice to finally getting around to making my own engine of some sort. Best of luck.
Also, names for the engine. These have always been my favorite: --> Icarus --> Helios --> Daedalus --> Morpheus --> Sigma --> Orion
Hmm... It sounds good, but i would be interested in specifications too, like which of the entities(multiplayer related) will be kept, and which of them will be erased. Will the basebrushes the same, or you add some new? Big changes in the already existing entities? Something new in the Texture application?
The in/output system of the new hammer is almost perfect i think. Almost:D It was and is a weak point of hammer, that you cant modifie entities by your free will without making a new game. You alwasy talk about that Lua thing. Maybe you could use it in this way too.
The biggest thing that im expecting from NS2 and source engine(i vote for Unknown engine, its cool cuz Unknown Worlds is a small company) is the new fancy brushentity system. I'm an old fashined mapper, so i dont think in models all the time. Solving problems with brushes are harder, and better:). So i'm bagging for the chance to build fancy elevators and trains dorrs etc which were impossible in NS or HL.
This may sound a little shallow, but I'm a little worried about how the graphics are going to look with this new engine.
Also, for the name, you could call it the UNKNOWNWORLDS Engine, The MAX Engine, The SKULK engine, or the Squeeboisamazing engine(My favorite, you've gotta use this one, guys.)
It seems pretty easy to come up with names. Hopefully you'll have decided by the next podcast!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> How about the Intelligent Design Engine... IDE?
Sarisel.::' ( O ) ';:-. .-.:;' ( O ) '::.Join Date: 2003-07-30Member: 18557Members, Constellation
The bus engine.
When major setbacks occur, companies often sugar-coat the event by playing out/exaggerating the positives. I'm hoping that this engine change really isn't a setback, but I can't help but feel uneasy based on what the community has been offered to see over the last year in terms of NS2's development. But hey, another 1-2 years is nothing as long as the investors are happy and the game ends up being a success.
PlasmaJoin Date: 2003-04-26Member: 15855Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited July 2008
Cool announcement.
It sure does sound like a good choice - the enthusiasm from the podcast with reasons on why a change was made and the progress so far sounds very promising.
There's no point having all of source's features if you won't use them, or that its too hard to work with because you're having to conform to someone else's game design (CS:S/HL2).
The podcasts showing off the texture viewer, level viewer and dynamic infestation, all looked really well done. Even though I don't know much about Max, I can tell he's pretty talented to be able to put that sort of stuff together so quickly.
Max and Charlie, do you have any other plans for the engine that you are considering?
As someone else mentioned, the idea of dynamic sounds based on distance sounds really cool. The thought of fog in NS2 appearing after a door opens sounds pretty sweet, or seeing slime drip off a rail.
What other things are you considering for the engine that could help with the atmosphere in NS2?
As for netcode, I heard you mention Tribes (awesome game) - If you have not read this article already, you may find it interesting.
It's an article by the Tribes developers describing the technology that they developed.
Also you may be interested in the Garage Games Torque Network Library (Developed by the Tribes developers) and it is available at <a href="http://www.opentnl.org/" target="_blank">http://www.opentnl.org/</a> which may be of interest too.
As for engine names, perhaps something playing on Unknown Worlds / Natural Selection (synonyms?). Star engine, Natural engine (Adaptation of the engine to suit the environment <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> )
<!--quoteo(post=1683159:date=Jul 11 2008, 11:05 PM:name=Squeebo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Squeebo @ Jul 11 2008, 11:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1683159"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This may sound a little shallow, but I'm a little worried about how the graphics are going to look with this new engine.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I believe that the graphics will be great considering Max's contributions to the industry through his shader programming ability. I don't think that the graphics area would be an area of concern.
The Unknown Engine or Natural Selection Engine to put simply, doesn't sound as ambitious as "unknown engine" <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
Anyways great to see you're taking steps to independency wherever its leading.
But what this shows me also is that when the engine is complete and successful (which I don't doubt at all), they can sell the engine and Unknown Worlds will grow even bigger!
This is either going to be a great or horrible decision, I am honestly doubting the success of ns2 now. Not because I dont think max/flayra are capable, but that they actually have enough inhouse developers and more importantly the budget to be able to fully develop/test/support a custom engine. Where I work there is a core tech team of engineers who only work on the engine and have 0 input on the game itself. So I am a bit concerned about this decision but I hope it works out, because I agree source is a very time consuming development process with lots of headaches.
I dont know technically how deep the ns2 design is but the fact it was mentioned using "3rd party mappers" to make the games maps and buying the best ones. I know I dont have time to learn another editor, so that is the biggest problem I can think when it comes to map development. Hopefully the similarities are close to hammer so the learning curve is not too big. I think if it's differences are more closely matched to unreal editor there are definitely going to be problems with trying to rely on community maps to purchase.
The biggest concern I have however is more around the network code, I have to admit Valve does have some awesome network code when it comes to fpses, possibly the best. With all the network traffic associated with ns and ns2's gametype (rts elements/parasiting) it generates a ton of network traffic. I think this is going your biggest challenge, hopefully you have the budget to hire a full time network programmer because I think that is a full time job all in itself. Anyways, best of luck to you, I hope it all works out, I am a huge ns fan and am really looking forward to seeing ns2 like everyone else.
pSyk0mAnNerdish by NatureGermanyJoin Date: 2003-08-07Member: 19166Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Community Developer
<!--quoteo(post=1683114:date=Jul 11 2008, 01:54 PM:name=DooGie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DooGie @ Jul 11 2008, 01:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1683114"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah, now we can blame UWE when the bullets don't reg ;D;D;D;D;D;D;D;D;D<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Nothing, not even Max's leet coding skills, can make up for spanish loller connections ;D;D;D;D;D;D
Like [R8]DJBourgeoisie, it can be a very good news and a terrible news... I am doubting too now, but I hope it will be great <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
I hope graphics will be better than Source, but what about the physic ? Nvidia PhysX ? Why do not use Havok ? Its probably the best physics engine of the world :/
My biggest concern is steam. Will this game use it? I for one HATE steam. It is a good idea in concept but fails in that it has so many problems. Make your own content delivery system if you have to. I just don't want to use that bloated piece of crap.
Steam had a lot of problems at the beginning, but today and that makes for a long time, it is a GREAT tool for users and developpers <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" /> For example, do you know what Steamworks ?
By speaking about that, if you deliver NS2 with Steam, please, use Steamworks <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
<!--quoteo(post=1683166:date=Jul 11 2008, 10:25 PM:name=Plasma)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Plasma @ Jul 11 2008, 10:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1683166"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As for netcode, I heard you mention Tribes (awesome game) - If you have not read this article already, you may find it interesting.
It's an article by the Tribes developers describing the technology that they developed.
Also you may be interested in the Garage Games Torque Network Library (Developed by the Tribes developers) and it is available at <a href="http://www.opentnl.org/" target="_blank">http://www.opentnl.org/</a> which may be of interest too.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I looked at the Torque Network Library and <a href="http://www.jenkinssoftware.com/" target="_blank">RakNet</a> when I started implementing the networking, since I figured they'd be good ways to save some effort. I did a partial implementation with Torque and a full implementation with RakNet (this was the one week network test we talked about in the podcast), but I couldn't get it to perform as well as I wanted. I think that might have been solvable, but since a multi-player only game lives and dies by its networking implementation, I really wanted to have a full understanding of every single line of code and the ability to tune everything. Natural Selection 2 (as well as NS1) has some difficult networking problems over most shooters as well, so I like the ability to customize the system for our needs.
So I scrapped that and rewrote the networking code from scratch. The good thing about first-person shooter networking though, is that a lot of smart people have already put lot of work into developing algorithms and techniques to make it work well. Here are a few good sources for people who are interested in these things: <ul><li><a href="http://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Lag_Compensation" target="_blank">Source Networking</a></li><li><a href="http://trac.bookofhook.com/bookofhook/trac.cgi/wiki/Quake3Networking" target="_blank">Quake 3 Networking</a></li></ul>The networking system isn't done, but it's totally usable and we've done internet tests between the US and Europe that were very encouraging.
That sounds good. Now for our European spies to track down this agent of UWE operating there!
Also, another push for the Darwin Engine... <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />
Comments
I was wondering if you were ready to release any information on how the game would be distributed?
Also since I did notice you brought up GDC, will you be attending GDC Austin in September?
Just take (as you said) other tools from other games (don't be shy)... like Farcry and Unreal. Coz frankly; Hammer is just crabbed like it's gonna hammer your life just to draw a cube. What made the success of Farcry (which is a dumb game) was the maps and the environment quality. Then you discover with Sandbox how they did it. Clearly you come to the conclusion that : the tool made the game.
-Surface (a grid that becomes the ground) would be good and can provide a good basis for alien, biodome style hives or cavern/mine(shaft haha) environment.
-Ergonomics: The faster artist can do maps... the better it is...
Well; time has to be shared between making or programming tools/game and making the game itself using the tool(s). When you come to think of it as NS will be shared by the community: Maybe giving more opportunities to the community by enhancing the tools would give the necessary energy to make a hit (damn i'm talking like a manager <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> ) .
Don't get me wrong; it's a good thing to create your own stuff to do things. We always feel better in our own shoes. But you got to do it from A to Z. I know how much energy is needed to 'finish' a project so i got a trick... Just stick on the ceiling of your office a post-it that say "Back to work". So when you get tired and start look at the ceiling after a good "huuuuaaaaaaaahhh!"... <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
ps: add some stuff on the box when you pat. it like-developed for " Natural Selection2 Source "
<img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/nerd-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::nerdy::" border="0" alt="nerd-fix.gif" /> Linux nerds like to make cool ######. nerds + cool ###### + NS = super plugins, super maps, extended community life, etc.
or don't.....whatever.
I like the GTA4 physics engine the best so far. Everything looked very real: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXXOY2VmWB4" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXXOY2VmWB4</a>
For a name, how about, Compu-Global-Hyper-Mega-Net ?
Found it he says
"In source we used to use alot of brushes, in this we wont use that many"
Found it he says
"In source we used to use alot of brushes, in this we wont use that many"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
*shifty eyes* ...wasn't me...
You've given me some creative juice to finally getting around to making my own engine of some sort.
Best of luck.
Also, names for the engine. These have always been my favorite:
--> Icarus
--> Helios
--> Daedalus
--> Morpheus
--> Sigma
--> Orion
Um... Anything greekish really.
Firefly?
Edit: Maximus!
The in/output system of the new hammer is almost perfect i think. Almost:D It was and is a weak point of hammer, that you cant modifie entities by your free will without making a new game. You alwasy talk about that Lua thing. Maybe you could use it in this way too.
The biggest thing that im expecting from NS2 and source engine(i vote for Unknown engine, its cool cuz Unknown Worlds is a small company) is the new fancy brushentity system. I'm an old fashined mapper, so i dont think in models all the time. Solving problems with brushes are harder, and better:). So i'm bagging for the chance to build fancy elevators and trains dorrs etc which were impossible in NS or HL.
I'm looking forfard for new infos:)
Also, for the name, you could call it the UNKNOWNWORLDS Engine, The MAX Engine, The SKULK engine, or the Squeeboisamazing engine(My favorite, you've gotta use this one, guys.)
It seems pretty easy to come up with names. Hopefully you'll have decided by the next podcast!
It seems pretty easy to come up with names. Hopefully you'll have decided by the next podcast!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How about the Intelligent Design Engine... IDE?
When major setbacks occur, companies often sugar-coat the event by playing out/exaggerating the positives. I'm hoping that this engine change really isn't a setback, but I can't help but feel uneasy based on what the community has been offered to see over the last year in terms of NS2's development. But hey, another 1-2 years is nothing as long as the investors are happy and the game ends up being a success.
other names
Spiral Engine
Unknown Engine
The Beast Engine
Garage Engine
MaxRay Engine
or just the NS2 engine?
Love the change and joined the forums just to say I love the idea and I am more excited now than before.
It sure does sound like a good choice - the enthusiasm from the podcast with reasons on why a change was made and the progress so far sounds very promising.
There's no point having all of source's features if you won't use them, or that its too hard to work with because you're having to conform to someone else's game design (CS:S/HL2).
The podcasts showing off the texture viewer, level viewer and dynamic infestation, all looked really well done. Even though I don't know much about Max, I can tell he's pretty talented to be able to put that sort of stuff together so quickly.
Max and Charlie, do you have any other plans for the engine that you are considering?
As someone else mentioned, the idea of dynamic sounds based on distance sounds really cool.
The thought of fog in NS2 appearing after a door opens sounds pretty sweet, or seeing slime drip off a rail.
What other things are you considering for the engine that could help with the atmosphere in NS2?
As for netcode, I heard you mention Tribes (awesome game) - If you have not read this article already, you may find it interesting.
<a href="http://www.garagegames.com/articles/gdc_networking1/index.html" target="_blank">http://www.garagegames.com/articles/gdc_ne...ing1/index.html</a>
It's an article by the Tribes developers describing the technology that they developed.
Also you may be interested in the Garage Games Torque Network Library (Developed by the Tribes developers) and it is available at <a href="http://www.opentnl.org/" target="_blank">http://www.opentnl.org/</a> which may be of interest too.
As for engine names, perhaps something playing on Unknown Worlds / Natural Selection (synonyms?).
Star engine, Natural engine (Adaptation of the engine to suit the environment <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> )
Looking forward to the next update guys!
Also, i thought you guys would have paid to license the source engine, so by starting on this new engine, aren't you throwing money away?
where can you get the editor when its done?
will there be an easy way to convert a hammer map to your editor?
Also, how about the Onos Engine?
I believe that the graphics will be great considering Max's contributions to the industry through his shader programming ability. I don't think that the graphics area would be an area of concern.
Natural Selection Engine
to put simply, doesn't sound as ambitious as "unknown engine" <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
Anyways great to see you're taking steps to independency wherever its leading.
But what this shows me also is that when the engine is complete and successful (which I don't doubt at all), they can sell the engine and Unknown Worlds will grow even bigger!
I dont know technically how deep the ns2 design is but the fact it was mentioned using "3rd party mappers" to make the games maps and buying the best ones. I know I dont have time to learn another editor, so that is the biggest problem I can think when it comes to map development. Hopefully the similarities are close to hammer so the learning curve is not too big. I think if it's differences are more closely matched to unreal editor there are definitely going to be problems with trying to rely on community maps to purchase.
The biggest concern I have however is more around the network code, I have to admit Valve does have some awesome network code when it comes to fpses, possibly the best. With all the network traffic associated with ns and ns2's gametype (rts elements/parasiting) it generates a ton of network traffic. I think this is going your biggest challenge, hopefully you have the budget to hire a full time network programmer because I think that is a full time job all in itself. Anyways, best of luck to you, I hope it all works out, I am a huge ns fan and am really looking forward to seeing ns2 like everyone else.
Nothing, not even Max's leet coding skills, can make up for spanish loller connections ;D;D;D;D;D;D
I hope graphics will be better than Source, but what about the physic ? Nvidia PhysX ? Why do not use Havok ? Its probably the best physics engine of the world :/
For example, do you know what Steamworks ?
By speaking about that, if you deliver NS2 with Steam, please, use Steamworks <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
Short simple sweet
<a href="http://www.garagegames.com/articles/gdc_networking1/index.html" target="_blank">http://www.garagegames.com/articles/gdc_ne...ing1/index.html</a>
It's an article by the Tribes developers describing the technology that they developed.
Also you may be interested in the Garage Games Torque Network Library (Developed by the Tribes developers) and it is available at <a href="http://www.opentnl.org/" target="_blank">http://www.opentnl.org/</a> which may be of interest too.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I looked at the Torque Network Library and <a href="http://www.jenkinssoftware.com/" target="_blank">RakNet</a> when I started implementing the networking, since I figured they'd be good ways to save some effort. I did a partial implementation with Torque and a full implementation with RakNet (this was the one week network test we talked about in the podcast), but I couldn't get it to perform as well as I wanted. I think that might have been solvable, but since a multi-player only game lives and dies by its networking implementation, I really wanted to have a full understanding of every single line of code and the ability to tune everything. Natural Selection 2 (as well as NS1) has some difficult networking problems over most shooters as well, so I like the ability to customize the system for our needs.
So I scrapped that and rewrote the networking code from scratch. The good thing about first-person shooter networking though, is that a lot of smart people have already put lot of work into developing algorithms and techniques to make it work well. Here are a few good sources for people who are interested in these things:
<ul><li><a href="http://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Lag_Compensation" target="_blank">Source Networking</a></li><li><a href="http://trac.bookofhook.com/bookofhook/trac.cgi/wiki/Quake3Networking" target="_blank">Quake 3 Networking</a></li></ul>The networking system isn't done, but it's totally usable and we've done internet tests between the US and Europe that were very encouraging.
Now for our European spies to track down this agent of UWE operating there!
Also, another push for the Darwin Engine... <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />