A lot of people are deathly afraid of change. Hell, starcraft 2 is being belittled by some people for being too different from starcraft 1 when I argue that they are way too damn similar.
Great debating about things you have no idea how they will actually turn out ingame.. really lowers the value of these forums always having much ado about nothing.
<!--quoteo(post=1695796:date=Dec 10 2008, 04:18 PM:name=Razagal)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Razagal @ Dec 10 2008, 04:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1695796"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So if you think a game sucks you download it and play it? Why would you want to play it if it sucks??? Seriously, this just sounds like a very bad excuse for not paying.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have paid lots of good games(half lifes, Starcaft, Rainbow shields, warcrafts and so on..) and if game is good then it will have good multiplayer options.
Every time I will look these forums I get feeling that NS2 will be even more ######ter when I read new informations from it. NS2 is commercial game so it will need to be simple that everyone can play it and thats why it wont be long lasting game like NS1 was (STILL I´m hoping that NS2 would be succes game, but I´m losing faith)...
puzlThe Old FirmJoin Date: 2003-02-26Member: 14029Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
edited December 2008
I think tomorrow's dinner won't be as nice as yesterday's because I'll eat it with a different knife and fork.
I know this is true because everything was so perfect yesterday, changing anything can't possibly improve it!
Ignore the fact that yesterday I constantly ######ed and moaned about how awful the food was.
Now lets analyse the specific statement that has caused this pointless waste of a topic.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Our health system is similar although it's similar to Call of Duty IV in that there is no number on your display but you definitely know how hurt you are from other feedback.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
See those words? Look at them again. Now read the quote again.
Those of you who like to know how hurt you are. Well you will <b>definitely</b> know how hurt you are.
Those of you who like the NS health system. Well the NS2 one is <b>similar</b>.
Those of us who like to understand the situation before we shoot our mouth off and highlight offensive words in bold red text, will still have to listen to teenagers raging over nothing.
puzlThe Old FirmJoin Date: 2003-02-26Member: 14029Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
edited December 2008
You may also have noticed that in NS the general idea is to allow players to customise their UI. Remember how the hive grew on your screen but people replaced the sprites with numerics? But oh no.. some people cling to a narrative where the dev team hate competitive play and anything that supports this narrative is jumped on immediately by the doom and gloom merchants. How many times were we asked to put all kinds of sprites under consistency checks and the only one that was ever considered was the muzzle flash. Of course, I can't comment on whether this philosophy will transfer to NS2 but I've not seen anything to suggest it might not be the case and plenty of hints that it might be improved upon.
Most of the nay sayers in the case of this thread have nothing to do with the competitive community puzl. This is an interesting idea which will take some time to get right, but will probably have a use. (lol not really)
Arguing against ideas when NS2 is still in concept stage (prove me wrong soon please!) is fruitless.
The same goes for mapping- until we know the tech, lifeforms and mechanics (maybe the onos will be twice as big in NS2, so corridors need to be huge; maybe there's no movement trick in NS2 so rooms need to be crammed with twice the amount of crap to give skulks cover) desiging or even planning them is a waste.
That said I doubt there'll be auto regen for marines, it makes alien abilities that sap marine health (OCs, lerk spore) less effective. But yea that sentance contradictes my first two paragraphs- so assuming the game is based around NS1.
Also firth has won this thread and Gibbz and puzl are yin and yang.
My main complaint with losing the numbers is armor - if it's still there, I don't think there's a logical way to display it as onscreen visual feedback. And having two separate pools of "health" makes it much more complicated to determine at first glance how much damage you can take without the numbers. Not to mention the fact that being in perfect health means different things depending on your armor upgrades. If armor is still being used, it should be a number and so should HP. It's just not possible to convey the same level of information through visual cues.
what if its a bar whose length is mathematically calculated to correspond to your survivability with the armor, wouldnt that be more intuitive than numbers
How about having faith in the team that made NS1 without ANY of your (everyone here) input or opinions. They know what they are doing and none of you have even played it to judge it yet you condemn it already? How about giving it a chance and let them do what they know how to do?
<!--quoteo(post=1696101:date=Dec 15 2008, 12:21 AM:name=TheGivingTree)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TheGivingTree @ Dec 15 2008, 12:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1696101"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How about having faith in the team that made NS1 without ANY of your (everyone here) input or opinions. They know what they are doing and none of you have even played it to judge it yet you condemn it already? How about giving it a chance and let them do what they know how to do?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Everyone knows that they can make a game that people like. However, when you take a look at the present public game direction and compare it to the competetive play, you can see the drastic difference. Who are they going to appeal in NS2 vanilla gameplay? I guess they can manage to make it work for both more competetive players and casual gamers, but it has probably become increasingly difficult during the recent years. Right now NS is very unique in it's mobile team based strategy style and I think people want to ensure it doesn't become too similar to the more recent titles like BF2 and TF2.
What's the point of arguing / debating stuff that isn't final and that you actually don't know anything about in the first place?
I can guarantee someone or some group will release an NS2 competition mod that has everything tweaked for the most awesome competitive play imaginable. If that means a more intrusive hud with precise numbers, they'll add it. Who cares if it isn't in the "official" NS2? If the needs of competitive players are so different to the needs of pubbers a mod with slight tweaks is the only sensible option.
This thread seems to me like the exact reason the dev team has been tight lipped about gameplay changes. Everyone throws their toys long before they fully understand the big picture. If I was in their position I wouldn't feel particularly motivated to share anything not playtested to destruction. The irrational whinging would really get me down...
<!--quoteo(post=1696110:date=Dec 15 2008, 08:54 AM:name=rsd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(rsd @ Dec 15 2008, 08:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1696110"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This thread makes me sad.
What's the point of arguing / debating stuff that isn't final and that you actually don't know anything about in the first place?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's a reasonable point. However, see the last two paragraphs to understand my view of this.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I can guarantee someone or some group will release an NS2 competition mod that has everything tweaked for the most awesome competitive play imaginable. If that means a more intrusive hud with precise numbers, they'll add it. Who cares if it isn't in the "official" NS2? If the needs of competitive players are so different to the needs of pubbers a mod with slight tweaks is the only sensible option.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Competetive gaming is based on public gaming. Even on NS the gap between the competetive and public grew huge. Now add a completely different gameplay and you've got no player intake for the competetive play. Different mods don't make much success unless the game itself sells big time like HL did.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This thread seems to me like the exact reason the dev team has been tight lipped about gameplay changes. Everyone throws their toys long before they fully understand the big picture. If I was in their position I wouldn't feel particularly motivated to share anything not playtested to destruction. The irrational whinging would really get me down...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is actually one of the things that has confused me. They've given us little info, but the info we've got has been kinda controversial to the elements of NS1 and hasn't had much of explanation in it. Obiviously they know more about the game and have every right to do whatever they do, but it still confuses me and it seems to confuse a lot of experienced nsplayers.
For example the smaller maps and the lack of minimap indicate some extend that the map control isn't going to be similar as it was in NS1. The map control is one of the things that I find really interesting in NS, so it makes me a little nervous to learn about such changes. It's like taking away 1/6th of my NS enjoyment and replacing it with nothing, not even any hype. That's why I'd like to hear more of the gameplay as soon as possible. Of course we need to know more about the maps before making too big assumptions on the role of map control.
<!--quoteo(post=1696081:date=Dec 14 2008, 01:26 PM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Zek @ Dec 14 2008, 01:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1696081"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->My main complaint with losing the numbers is armor - if it's still there, I don't think there's a logical way to display it as onscreen visual feedback. And having two separate pools of "health" makes it much more complicated to determine at first glance how much damage you can take without the numbers. Not to mention the fact that being in perfect health means different things depending on your armor upgrades. If armor is still being used, it should be a number and so should HP. It's just not possible to convey the same level of information through visual cues.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think this thread has gone a little too wild eyed and foaming at the mouth for my liking, the only people who can give a definitive answer to exactly how the interface is going to be is the developers!
If there are any developers still reading this thread can you please tell us how you're planning on doing the HUD so these poor people for whom the difference between 75 and 76 heath is so terribly important can sleep again.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1696117:date=Dec 15 2008, 07:28 AM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Bacillus @ Dec 15 2008, 07:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1696117"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->For example the smaller maps and the lack of minimap indicate some extend that the map control isn't going to be similar as it was in NS1. The map control is one of the things that I find really interesting in NS, so it makes me a little nervous to learn about such changes. It's like taking away 1/6th of my NS enjoyment and replacing it with nothing, not even any hype. That's why I'd like to hear more of the gameplay as soon as possible. Of course we need to know more about the maps before making too big assumptions on the role of map control.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=104438&hl=landmark" target="_blank">landmark bonuses</a> could be a substitute for the smaller map sizes. But that's just speculation.
<!--quoteo(post=1696110:date=Dec 15 2008, 03:54 AM:name=rsd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(rsd @ Dec 15 2008, 03:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1696110"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This thread makes me sad.
What's the point of arguing / debating stuff that isn't final and that you actually don't know anything about in the first place?
I can guarantee someone or some group will release an NS2 competition mod that has everything tweaked for the most awesome competitive play imaginable. If that means a more intrusive hud with precise numbers, they'll add it. Who cares if it isn't in the "official" NS2? If the needs of competitive players are so different to the needs of pubbers a mod with slight tweaks is the only sensible option.
This thread seems to me like the exact reason the dev team has been tight lipped about gameplay changes. Everyone throws their toys long before they fully understand the big picture. If I was in their position I wouldn't feel particularly motivated to share anything not playtested to destruction. The irrational whinging would really get me down...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1696120:date=Dec 15 2008, 01:55 PM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(locallyunscene @ Dec 15 2008, 01:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1696120"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=104438&hl=landmark" target="_blank">landmark bonuses</a> could be a substitute for the smaller map sizes. But that's just speculation.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'll check the idea more thoroughly tomorrow, but I don't realize how a system like that acts that much different from double res for example. The small map causes that there aren't that many flanking spots, chokepoints, pressure locations, route selections and such. Those are the elements that I use the most, not necessarily what's in the rooms themselves.
I recall someone saying that the air curve and blink/swipe system of the fade is the easiest part, but the fades that are able to control the game with good game sense are the ones that win rounds. Being at the right place at the right time is at least 50% of the fading. Nothing is more rewarding than predicting the marine team's actions and controlling the momentum of the game. Now, with maps of 6-10 rooms you might always be 10-15 seconds away from the crucial locations on NS1 movement speeds, which might mean that positioning yourself correctly and interrupting the marine spread at critical spots aren't going to be as significant as they've been in NS1.
That's all speculation though, but that's also the exact reason why I'd like to learn more about the gameplay as soon as possible.
<!--quoteo(post=1696117:date=Dec 15 2008, 02:28 PM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Bacillus @ Dec 15 2008, 02:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1696117"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->They've given us little info, but the info we've got has been kinda controversial to the elements of NS1 and hasn't had much of explanation in it. Obiviously they know more about the game and have every right to do whatever they do, but it still confuses me and it seems to confuse a lot of experienced nsplayers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok that's a fair point, maybe the dev team is also partly to blame for releasing limited information on what is bound to be a controversial subject. If they gave us the full picture some of the vague debating could be avoided.
Thanks for not taking my post personally <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
<b></b>Drunkpost:<b></b> Ns is perfect. The only thing is that it was released too late. I think that mobile sieges&dynamic infestacion etc. are dumb ideas that wil require a huge amount of testing till theyre even for both teams. just keeping it oldschool zo/
NS hasnt always been as balanced as it is now. It took many years and versions to get where it is now. If they add too many new things its gonna take long to get game adjusted to what is now and that is not going to help community get new competitive people. I dont think gameplay can be tested fully until its released.
PrefixÉirinn go BráchJoin Date: 2006-12-31Member: 59353Members, Constellation
I don't want to play NS1 all over again.
A numbered health isn't necessarily more informative Gibbz, colour coded and segmented bars can be just as informative.
Most of the comp players are throwing hissy fits because they aren't getting to play a game they are already good at with simply better graphics, new game play elements mean a new game to learn.
Have faith, they created NS1 with no budget and it turned out to be one of the best games ever made, with a professional team and investment, with both competitive and public communities in mind, I'm confident they will make NS2 good too.
You just need to chill out, they've already said that important things such as skill based movement etc will be in the game, so let them experiment with new stuff before telling them its terrible - wait until you see how an idea is implemented before ######.
<!--quoteo(post=1696504:date=Dec 21 2008, 02:16 PM:name=Prefix)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Prefix @ Dec 21 2008, 02:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1696504"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't want to play NS1 all over again.
A numbered health isn't necessarily more informative Gibbz, colour coded and segmented bars can be just as informative.
Most of the comp players are throwing hissy fits because they aren't getting to play a game they are already good at with simply better graphics, new game play elements mean a new game to learn.
Have faith, they created NS1 with no budget and it turned out to be one of the best games ever made, with a professional team and investment, with both competitive and public communities in mind, I'm confident they will make NS2 good too.
You just need to chill out, they've already said that important things such as skill based movement etc will be in the game, so let them experiment with new stuff before telling them its terrible - wait until you see how an idea is implemented before ######.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't want to play NS1 all over again.
A numbered health isn't necessarily more informative Gibbz, colour coded and segmented bars can be just as informative.
Most of the comp players are throwing hissy fits because they aren't getting to play a game they are already good at with simply better graphics, new game play elements mean a new game to learn.
Have faith, they created NS1 with no budget and it turned out to be one of the best games ever made, with a professional team and investment, with both competitive and public communities in mind, I'm confident they will make NS2 good too.
You just need to chill out, they've already said that important things such as skill based movement etc will be in the game, so let them experiment with new stuff before telling them its terrible - wait until you see how an idea is implemented before ######.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1696648:date=Dec 24 2008, 12:12 AM:name=Zamma)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Zamma @ Dec 24 2008, 12:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1696648"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Irish people don't have opinions.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Youre a bit of an arse arent you?
Im going to wait this one out and see what the developers have to show us with the final game.
<!--quoteo(post=1696678:date=Dec 24 2008, 07:58 AM:name=CoolCookieCooks)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(CoolCookieCooks @ Dec 24 2008, 07:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1696678"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Youre a bit of an arse arent you?
Im going to wait this one out and see what the developers have to show us with the final game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually C3... Im one of Prefix's "e-friends". It's called banter <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> Don't judge <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" /> Hence why he replied with a warthog joke... inside jokes... bantar...
Here's the issue I see with a visual-cue based health reporting system. Assume it's known that a skulk's bite does 75 damage. Suppose a marine takes damage from various sources(gas, falling, etc) and doesn't know how much damage he's taken. So, under the proposed system, the marine won't know exactly how much HP he currently has, and therefore won't know if he has enough HP to take 1 skulk bite. The marine has the option of requesting a medpack, or getting health from another source(armory/whatever is in NS2), but doesn't know if he needs to. Now suppose that our marine has memorized what health/armor level each visual cue corresponds to. He now knows whether or not he needs to restore his health in order to survive another skulk bite.
So, someone who memorizes all the visual cues has an advantage over someone who hasn't. I consider that to be a needlessly complicated way of getting better at a game, especially for something as essential as knowing when to get health. I realize that even with a numeral health reporting system, the player still needs to memorize how much damage an attack does in order to know if they need HP, but that's a lot less difficult than learning a bunch of visual cues(and you don't need to know every attack, just some, like skulk bite)
BadMouthIt ceases to be exclusive when you can have a custom member titlJoin Date: 2004-05-21Member: 28815Members
Much ado about nothing. But then again, I am also jumping on the bandwagon. The changes stated are big, really big. And if you put these changes into NS now, it would probably ruin the game. But they are not putting these changes into NS. They are putting it into NS2. And they will probably tweak everything else to allow the pieces of the puzzle to fit together. Right now, we only have pieces. If you cut up Da Vinci's work into pieces, it'll look like crap. But put it together, and it's a masterpiece. Think of the little updates like that.
The main issue discussed here is the health system where competitive players complain about the need of knowing exactly how much health you need. I understand it is vital in NS gameplay but it might not be in NS2. I think people are just afraid of change. Because they have this awesome game and are just afraid that changes will ruin in. But everyone knows the devs are competent people.
Take this analogy. Long time ago, people didn't know about the wheel. They pulled things on sleds using no wheels and some peope got really good at that. They'll say "I know how to judge terrain, the right pulling technique, etc etc." Then, introduce the wheel. People get scared. They'll say "O dear, I need to spend time making wheels, and I'll have to balance my things on them instead of having a flat surface." But when they try it out, all these fears are unfounded. So let us hope that these changes, no matter how ridiculous they sound, are like the wheel.
Comments
Great debating about things you have no idea how they will actually turn out ingame.. really lowers the value of these forums always having much ado about nothing.
But what would NS be without drama?
Why would you want to play it if it sucks???
Seriously, this just sounds like a very bad excuse for not paying.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have paid lots of good games(half lifes, Starcaft, Rainbow shields, warcrafts and so on..) and if game is good then it will have good multiplayer options.
Every time I will look these forums I get feeling that NS2 will be even more ######ter when I read new informations from it. NS2 is commercial game so it will need to be simple that everyone can play it and thats why it wont be long lasting game like NS1 was (STILL I´m hoping that NS2 would be succes game, but I´m losing faith)...
I know this is true because everything was so perfect yesterday, changing anything can't possibly improve it!
Ignore the fact that yesterday I constantly ######ed and moaned about how awful the food was.
Now lets analyse the specific statement that has caused this pointless waste of a topic.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Our health system is similar although it's similar to Call of Duty IV in that there is no number on your display but you definitely know how hurt you are from other feedback.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<b><!--sizeo:7--><span style="font-size:36pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Similar<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></b>
<b><!--sizeo:7--><span style="font-size:36pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->definitely<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></b>
<b><!--sizeo:7--><span style="font-size:36pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->know<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></b>
<b><!--sizeo:7--><span style="font-size:36pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->hurt<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></b>
See those words? Look at them again. Now read the quote again.
Those of you who like to know how hurt you are. Well you will <b>definitely</b> know how hurt you are.
Those of you who like the NS health system. Well the NS2 one is <b>similar</b>.
Those of us who like to understand the situation before we shoot our mouth off and highlight offensive words in bold red text, will still have to listen to teenagers raging over nothing.
That is all.
The same goes for mapping- until we know the tech, lifeforms and mechanics (maybe the onos will be twice as big in NS2, so corridors need to be huge; maybe there's no movement trick in NS2 so rooms need to be crammed with twice the amount of crap to give skulks cover) desiging or even planning them is a waste.
That said I doubt there'll be auto regen for marines, it makes alien abilities that sap marine health (OCs, lerk spore) less effective. But yea that sentance contradictes my first two paragraphs- so assuming the game is based around NS1.
Also firth has won this thread and Gibbz and puzl are yin and yang.
Everyone knows that they can make a game that people like. However, when you take a look at the present public game direction and compare it to the competetive play, you can see the drastic difference. Who are they going to appeal in NS2 vanilla gameplay? I guess they can manage to make it work for both more competetive players and casual gamers, but it has probably become increasingly difficult during the recent years. Right now NS is very unique in it's mobile team based strategy style and I think people want to ensure it doesn't become too similar to the more recent titles like BF2 and TF2.
What's the point of arguing / debating stuff that isn't final and that you actually don't know anything about in the first place?
I can guarantee someone or some group will release an NS2 competition mod that has everything tweaked for the most awesome competitive play imaginable. If that means a more intrusive hud with precise numbers, they'll add it. Who cares if it isn't in the "official" NS2? If the needs of competitive players are so different to the needs of pubbers a mod with slight tweaks is the only sensible option.
This thread seems to me like the exact reason the dev team has been tight lipped about gameplay changes. Everyone throws their toys long before they fully understand the big picture. If I was in their position I wouldn't feel particularly motivated to share anything not playtested to destruction. The irrational whinging would really get me down...
What's the point of arguing / debating stuff that isn't final and that you actually don't know anything about in the first place?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's a reasonable point. However, see the last two paragraphs to understand my view of this.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I can guarantee someone or some group will release an NS2 competition mod that has everything tweaked for the most awesome competitive play imaginable. If that means a more intrusive hud with precise numbers, they'll add it. Who cares if it isn't in the "official" NS2? If the needs of competitive players are so different to the needs of pubbers a mod with slight tweaks is the only sensible option.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Competetive gaming is based on public gaming. Even on NS the gap between the competetive and public grew huge. Now add a completely different gameplay and you've got no player intake for the competetive play. Different mods don't make much success unless the game itself sells big time like HL did.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This thread seems to me like the exact reason the dev team has been tight lipped about gameplay changes. Everyone throws their toys long before they fully understand the big picture. If I was in their position I wouldn't feel particularly motivated to share anything not playtested to destruction. The irrational whinging would really get me down...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is actually one of the things that has confused me. They've given us little info, but the info we've got has been kinda controversial to the elements of NS1 and hasn't had much of explanation in it. Obiviously they know more about the game and have every right to do whatever they do, but it still confuses me and it seems to confuse a lot of experienced nsplayers.
For example the smaller maps and the lack of minimap indicate some extend that the map control isn't going to be similar as it was in NS1. The map control is one of the things that I find really interesting in NS, so it makes me a little nervous to learn about such changes. It's like taking away 1/6th of my NS enjoyment and replacing it with nothing, not even any hype. That's why I'd like to hear more of the gameplay as soon as possible. Of course we need to know more about the maps before making too big assumptions on the role of map control.
basically what i was trying to say
If there are any developers still reading this thread can you please tell us how you're planning on doing the HUD so these poor people for whom the difference between 75 and 76 heath is so terribly important can sleep again.
I think <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=104438&hl=landmark" target="_blank">landmark bonuses</a> could be a substitute for the smaller map sizes. But that's just speculation.
What's the point of arguing / debating stuff that isn't final and that you actually don't know anything about in the first place?
I can guarantee someone or some group will release an NS2 competition mod that has everything tweaked for the most awesome competitive play imaginable. If that means a more intrusive hud with precise numbers, they'll add it. Who cares if it isn't in the "official" NS2? If the needs of competitive players are so different to the needs of pubbers a mod with slight tweaks is the only sensible option.
This thread seems to me like the exact reason the dev team has been tight lipped about gameplay changes. Everyone throws their toys long before they fully understand the big picture. If I was in their position I wouldn't feel particularly motivated to share anything not playtested to destruction. The irrational whinging would really get me down...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
read the title of the topic.
I'll check the idea more thoroughly tomorrow, but I don't realize how a system like that acts that much different from double res for example. The small map causes that there aren't that many flanking spots, chokepoints, pressure locations, route selections and such. Those are the elements that I use the most, not necessarily what's in the rooms themselves.
I recall someone saying that the air curve and blink/swipe system of the fade is the easiest part, but the fades that are able to control the game with good game sense are the ones that win rounds. Being at the right place at the right time is at least 50% of the fading. Nothing is more rewarding than predicting the marine team's actions and controlling the momentum of the game. Now, with maps of 6-10 rooms you might always be 10-15 seconds away from the crucial locations on NS1 movement speeds, which might mean that positioning yourself correctly and interrupting the marine spread at critical spots aren't going to be as significant as they've been in NS1.
That's all speculation though, but that's also the exact reason why I'd like to learn more about the gameplay as soon as possible.
Ok that's a fair point, maybe the dev team is also partly to blame for releasing limited information on what is bound to be a controversial subject. If they gave us the full picture some of the vague debating could be avoided.
Thanks for not taking my post personally <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
A numbered health isn't necessarily more informative Gibbz, colour coded and segmented bars can be just as informative.
Most of the comp players are throwing hissy fits because they aren't getting to play a game they are already good at with simply better graphics, new game play elements mean a new game to learn.
Have faith, they created NS1 with no budget and it turned out to be one of the best games ever made, with a professional team and investment, with both competitive and public communities in mind, I'm confident they will make NS2 good too.
You just need to chill out, they've already said that important things such as skill based movement etc will be in the game, so let them experiment with new stuff before telling them its terrible - wait until you see how an idea is implemented before ######.
A numbered health isn't necessarily more informative Gibbz, colour coded and segmented bars can be just as informative.
Most of the comp players are throwing hissy fits because they aren't getting to play a game they are already good at with simply better graphics, new game play elements mean a new game to learn.
Have faith, they created NS1 with no budget and it turned out to be one of the best games ever made, with a professional team and investment, with both competitive and public communities in mind, I'm confident they will make NS2 good too.
You just need to chill out, they've already said that important things such as skill based movement etc will be in the game, so let them experiment with new stuff before telling them its terrible - wait until you see how an idea is implemented before ######.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Irish people don't have opinions.
A numbered health isn't necessarily more informative Gibbz, colour coded and segmented bars can be just as informative.
Most of the comp players are throwing hissy fits because they aren't getting to play a game they are already good at with simply better graphics, new game play elements mean a new game to learn.
Have faith, they created NS1 with no budget and it turned out to be one of the best games ever made, with a professional team and investment, with both competitive and public communities in mind, I'm confident they will make NS2 good too.
You just need to chill out, they've already said that important things such as skill based movement etc will be in the game, so let them experiment with new stuff before telling them its terrible - wait until you see how an idea is implemented before ######.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
*nods*
Youre a bit of an arse arent you?
Im going to wait this one out and see what the developers have to show us with the final game.
Neither do Warthogs dude.
Im going to wait this one out and see what the developers have to show us with the final game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually C3... Im one of Prefix's "e-friends". It's called banter <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
Don't judge <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />
Hence why he replied with a warthog joke... inside jokes... bantar...
Assume it's known that a skulk's bite does 75 damage.
Suppose a marine takes damage from various sources(gas, falling, etc) and doesn't know how much damage he's taken.
So, under the proposed system, the marine won't know exactly how much HP he currently has, and therefore won't know if he has enough HP to take 1 skulk bite.
The marine has the option of requesting a medpack, or getting health from another source(armory/whatever is in NS2), but doesn't know if he needs to.
Now suppose that our marine has memorized what health/armor level each visual cue corresponds to. He now knows whether or not he needs to restore his health in order to survive another skulk bite.
So, someone who memorizes all the visual cues has an advantage over someone who hasn't. I consider that to be a needlessly complicated way of getting better at a game, especially for something as essential as knowing when to get health. I realize that even with a numeral health reporting system, the player still needs to memorize how much damage an attack does in order to know if they need HP, but that's a lot less difficult than learning a bunch of visual cues(and you don't need to know every attack, just some, like skulk bite)
The main issue discussed here is the health system where competitive players complain about the need of knowing exactly how much health you need. I understand it is vital in NS gameplay but it might not be in NS2. I think people are just afraid of change. Because they have this awesome game and are just afraid that changes will ruin in. But everyone knows the devs are competent people.
Take this analogy. Long time ago, people didn't know about the wheel. They pulled things on sleds using no wheels and some peope got really good at that. They'll say "I know how to judge terrain, the right pulling technique, etc etc." Then, introduce the wheel. People get scared. They'll say "O dear, I need to spend time making wheels, and I'll have to balance my things on them instead of having a flat surface." But when they try it out, all these fears are unfounded. So let us hope that these changes, no matter how ridiculous they sound, are like the wheel.